is this a desparate business in need of funds?

Originally Posted by Ed Clark

lisa,this is more about protecting your investment,and yes buying a ball python morph these days is a serious investment.and you would hope for a little bit of return on your investment.right.hes not supporting the little guy as you stated,hes trying to pick your pockets for $800.00

I'd rather him pick my pocket for $800 than $1500 or more. In a couple of years the mojaves will be about the price that pastels are now anyways. So many people are breeding them, it's unreal. You can't come into this market expecting a hefty return on your investments. Unless you're coming out with new morphs or combos, the offspring of the animal you purchased will only be worth half what you paid for their parent, if that. That's just the way things are.

[quote=Cat_72][quote=jerichoharris]It might be upsetting to find out that had you waited a year to buy a Mohave morph you could have saved yourself $500, but why is this different to the $5,000 Plasma tv that is in a 50% off clearance sale 12 months after you bought it?

Um, do you know anyone that bought a $5,000 plasma TV expecting to be able to produce and sell little baby plasma TVs and recoup at least a good portion of their investment? Perhaps keep a few of those cute little mini-plasmas back and raise them up to make even MORE baby plasma TVs?

THAT why it is different. Apples and oranges.

Okay, so say I bought a plasma making company, now it's similar. The point is that if you are buying these snakes as an investment, you better have as a contingency that people can and will sell them for whatever they want.

Originally Posted by Clay Davenport

John,
I think the only part of your post that I was actually disagreeing with was this one line.

If people are getting into this as an investment, they need to play the stock market, buy CD's (not the music ones lol), get into real estate, whatever.

Okay, I can kind of see what you mean. It's in context to the thread though, anotherwords...I think (actually, I guess I know or I wouldn't be doing it )there is money to be made investing in snakes. My point was that these kinds of complaints have been around forever, with a lot of different species of snakes, and even geckos. That if you can't deal with this type of reality in your business plans, the other options have a little bit more stability. CD's a lot more....real estate and stock market obviously have risks, but as long as the bubble doesn't burst, or the stock market collapse you can plan for the risks. It's a lot less likely that the house next to your investment, or even a bunch of the houses in the neighborhood are suddenly going to sell for a third of what they should be. The pricing for morphs of BP's, or any of the herps, is more subject to "whims" for lack of being able to think of a better example/definition, that's mostly what my point was...............I guess................seems like my mind is getting cloudier as I go . As I mentioned earlier, and I think you mentioned such in your post, I just personally think they are overpriced. Piebald BP's are without a doubt one of the neatest snakes I have ever seen, but I refuse to pay the price of a car, for a snake, that's just me.

I could possibly see recessives costing more due to the fact that they are harder to produce in that you have to breed to a normal to get Hets and then to the hets to get anyhting... if your lucky. Either that, or go out and get a pair. All of those Co-Doms that people are trying to get rich quick with... they are going out, spending 2000 on a snake, breeding it to 5 females, maybe getting 2-3 if they are lucky from each breeding (i know maybe high, but its a scenario) and then they are complaining they arent going to get a return on investment? Hell, you would get your money back selling them for 300 each... What it comes down to is Greed... simple as that... I want my cake and eat it too. I want to go out, spend 2000 and turn around in a year or so and grab up 10000 pluss by breeding him to as many normal females as i can in a season..... tell me I'm wrong...

I see what you mean John. If someone wants a more secure investment balls are not the best choice.
For me though investing in ball pythons has added benefits. As I said I play the stock market. It bores me to be honest. I don't invest in stocks at all, I trade them. Often unsuccessfully, but that's another matter.
With the snakes though, I am interested, I enjoy working with them. I have goals outside of the money aspect, I want a bumblebee, a pastel clown, and albino spider. These things I will not be buying, I'll be producing for myself. For me, balls are a sort of living art collection. I love to slide out a drawer and just stare at an albino ball. If I didn't feel this way about them then I couldn't do it, I'd burn out in a year because it's a lot of work. Would I complain about making 10 grand in a season from the balls? Of course not, that would be great. But other goals allow me to still be happy even with a losing season.
At the same time I cannot limit myself to working with only ball morphs. For years I have had a personal fear of getting lost in the market end of the hobby. It's easier to do that than many realize. I never want to see nothing but potential return when I look at a snake.
As a buffer against this I always have a few projects going on that I just enjoy doing. I also try to have a project or two that is research oriented. It all keeps me grounded and helps me remember why I started all this to begin with.

Being involved with the ball morphs though lets me see things from that perspective. I do not bemoan the normal regression in prices that happens every year. It's a fact of the business and is expected. I will not however publicly undercut the other breeders by nearly half. It's disrespectful to those who have come before me and pioneered these morphs, and to those who have a lot more at stake than I do.
If a family emergency required me to raise a good deal of cash quickly, then things would be different. I have to take care of my own first, but aside from that, while I might make some deals privately, I would never try to significantly adjust the market price prematurely just because I could.
I don't have mojaves myself, they have never been high on my list of favorites, but I still do not feel that the market demanded an $800 price for one. I expected 7 or 8 hundred next season, as did most everyone else, this move was just unnessary.

It is my opinion that the entire sale was intended to draw attention to MKR. They sure don't need the cash. Despite the few that are saying "I will never buy anything from them", the vast majority will when they see them offer something they are looking for at nearly half the going price. MKR sees a crunch in the industry coming and they are positioning themselves to remain one of the first sources in the minds of the average buyer. This is my opinion, btu I don't tihnk it has anything to do with "giving back to the customers", it has more to do with name recognition to increase sales during the coming market adjustments.

In my opinion - this argument mirrors many about the economy in our country.

Example - WalMart forces manufacturers to reduce their costs so they can provide product for much less.

Good - poorer people can afford more.

Bad - puts other retailers, especially smaller ones, out of business. Forces jobs overseas.

Fair? Since our economy is a capitalist one, yes. Is it right? The arguments won't end about it any time soon.

In my opinion, no snake breeder is "safe", since a morph's popularity or breeding status can't be predicted. If many are breeding, as others have said, prices will go down. The market will get saturated for CERTAIN morphs. Seems like you have to get into a morph VERY early, and successfully predict that the morph will be a popular one, in order to be successful. Ball pythons are more "safe" than other snakes (ie boas) because they have fewer offspring.

However, people have different views about business. I wouldn't say this is unethical, in my opinion. Their "sale" doesn't have to drive down morph costs. More reputable, longterm breeders can always ask more for their snakes from customers who are concerned with quality. I would not buy a $500 albino boa... There will also always be people who want the cheapest snake possible. I'd say count yourself on the "quality" side. Yes, it's probably an effort for them to get rid of some stock and market their name, but not necessarily a slap in YOUR face or other breeders' faces, or an ATTEMPT to drive down prices. Just an attempt to make more money, again, my opinion.

I wonder why ppl dont mind their own business. IF joe smoe wants to sell his snakes for X amt of $$$ and it happens to be way below "market value" and you don't agree with it, why gripe about it?

These are his snakes. His snakes to sell for whatever he wants to sell them for. If you can easily get $1200 out of the snakes then buy them at $800 and resell them tomorrow for $1200. If theyre flying out of breeders homes for $1200 then a $400 profit per snake in a few days time would be worth the effort.

I'm not saying yay or nay about this whole thing because I don't have money invested (yet)...BUT I did see this tonight:

http://www.ozzyboids.com/availableball.htm

Their mojave males were priced at $1500 less than 2 weeks ago...I know, I was looking around for one before deciding on my albino and had looked through their website among others. Now they're all of a sudden $1K...think it has anything to do with MKR?

The problem is that if enough are released to the market, it will drive prices down considerably.

Say you bought a male pastel last year and paid $1000 for it. This year you could possibly get one for $250. You lost 3/4 of the value of the snake in one year. Now say you breed it and hit bad odds next year and you don't get pastels. Breed again the next year and you get 2 males in the clutch. With the market going down you now have to sell them at $200 each. That means in 3 years you got back less than half of your investment and didn't touch the cost of upkeep and food.

Now say it was a mojave. Same thing but you originally paid $5000 for it. Now it is being sold for $800.

This is why people are complaining.

Yes prices always drop each year but to purposely release 50 or more at a fraction of what they were last year, a week before the Daytona show, and seriously undercut everyone else is an attempt to line thier pockets as quickly as possible shows they do not care about past customers or other breeders.

Originally Posted by JenHarrison

I'm not saying yay or nay about this whole thing because I don't have money invested (yet)...BUT I did see this tonight:

http://www.ozzyboids.com/availableball.htm

Their mojave males were priced at $1500 less than 2 weeks ago...I know, I was looking around for one before deciding on my albino and had looked through their website among others. Now they're all of a sudden $1K...think it has anything to do with MKR?

I would say it has everything to do with MKR. They need to adjust down to compete since MKR has set a precedent in the market.