Selective spider breeding

Originally Posted by zacalaca

your right, i should've titled it differently, and i might rework the ad. but many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not-as i was just attracted to their apperance and had never even heard of kingsnake or fauna when i bought the pair. so are you saying that everyone who has purchased a spider knowing about the issue is wrong for doing so? or breeding them knowing even if theirs was a nonwobbler, that perhaps one of the offspring might have problems? do you own a spider? have you bred it? than you are as much a part of the problem as i am since non wobblers can produce wobblers too.

I don't own a spider although they are attractive. I think reworking your ad and saying something about it being pet material would make you a good guy in my eyes.
Your price is already below market, and if you are willing to find it a pet home you've done good.

Sometimes the breadth of the possibilty of a genetic flaw isn't clear when we first buy a critter. But it isn't what we do when we don't know that's important, it's the steps we take once we DO know. Good on you, for thinking about changing your ad.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

but many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not-as i was just attracted to their apperance and had never even heard of kingsnake or fauna when i bought the pair.

nor did I.. until I did some research.

in general, no one should purchase any animal without looking into it. Its like getting a great dane, and being shocked when it dies at the age of 7... or a German Shepherd that gets Hip Displaysia ..

I too am new to this. But any morph I get, I look into. Like the issues of 2 cinnies possibly making a duck billed super.. It seems that pairing a cinny with a black pastel *which will still produce supers* helps to reduce those duck bill chances.

So please.. do not use the "I am new to this" line. Yes, new people make mistakes, *I know I have/do* But they have to learn, and strive to better.

I see you changed the title of your ad. Do you understand WHY? It IS your choice, and you are honest about it (which is great!).. but it seems you are still reluctant to understand WHY it is. You keep trying to defend your reasons.. This is unnecessary. We just want people *not just you* to understand why selective breeding is so important.

And I personally do have a spider.. I have not yet bred him. But. I did be very patient about purchasing him. I purchased him from someone who is well trusted, and has no noticed wobbles in his collection.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

I honestly don't know where the percentages would fall, but I have heard anecdotal accounts which would seem to indicate that there is some benefit to breeding solid nonwobblers...and that breeding severe wobblers produces a higher proportion of wobbling offspring. Most people that breed severe wobblers aren't really upfront about it, though....either that, or it isn't as common as some would have us think.

I don't either; I assume they're going to be pretty similar, but you know what happens when one assumes.... I don't put much stake in "anecdotal accounts," though I wouldn't be surprised if non-wobblers produced more non-wobblers. Not meaning offense in any way, shape, or form--it's just the scientist in me.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

The latter part of your first statement seems to indicate that people haven't been trying, or that this is a somewhat new situation (well, in the big picture, it IS relatively new - spiders have been around for, what?, maybe 10 yrs?). A lot of people care enough to look for rock solid animals for their breeding projects...and a lot of people don't. It really is too soon to say if it can be reduced through selective breeding because most people aren't doing multi-generational studies. Also, as evidenced by the animal we have been discussing, some spiders start to demonstrate the problem a couple years down the road (from what I've heard, breeding is a common trigger).

My apologies. That was not my intent. I just figured that since this has been an issue since the first spiders were produced, there would be a lot more evidence of whether this is something that can be weeded out or not. So far, on every website I've checked about this issue, all that seems to exist is anecdotal evidence.

I guess what is getting my knickers in a twist with this particular thread is the person getting pooped on for selling a wobbly Spider. I've seen Good Guy breeders sell kinked snakes before, and I don't see an issue with either as long as it is explicitly stated to a potential buyer. I almost bought a kinked Butter once because I wanted another pet ball python that wasn't a normal; I didn't want to breed them (at the time). If my Woma continues to act funny, and if I decide to breed her to see what her offspring look like, I will state explicitly in any ad for any offspring that one of the parents was a wobbler and probably shouldn't be used for breeding purposes. I don't see why selling less-than-perfect snakes to anyone who wants a non-normal-morph ball python for a pet is such a problem. (Yes, I realize that some breeders will buy them anyway because they're cheaper.)

Originally Posted by hhmoore

As to the attitudes you see when this subject comes up, it boils down to what people think is best for the hobby as a whole. Many people don't like to see others cutting corners, as it reflects negatively on snake breeders as a group. Promoting the breeding of a flawed animal, just because it CAN breed is something to be discouraged. Liken it to breeding a dog with hip dysplasia, or any breed specific problem (not the best example, I know, but it gets the point across).

Originally Posted by Miss Tuniwha

This is why it is a "hot" issue. because there isn't enough long term resources on it to prove it out. And with tons of new people coming to play the "breeding game", many people are cutting corners, buying the cheaper snakes, which are usually lower quality (brown pastels, kinked caramels, super wobblers, etc) which leads to more and more low grade/defective animals being pushed onto the market every year.

I agree. Unfortunately, there will always be people cutting corners. In the case of wobblers or kinked snakes, the good breeders will avoid those. I know that it's very easy to get a wobbly, kinked snake from sellers who don't advertise the snakes as such, but I guess it's their choice. People will learn to not buy from those who have been known to sell less-than-optimal specimens.

Originally Posted by lucille

"Wobbly Spider breeder male $275"

Yes, perhaps the ad needs better word choice, but I guess when I read "breeder male," I think of the age of the snake, not that it's necessarily good for breeding. I mean, a brown pastel "breeder male" snake isn't something I'd buy to use as a breeder; I'd wait for a nice, bright yellow one. That doesn't mean the ad is misleading.

i do understand, but i was ignorant about the issues concerning spiders. i am aware or the issues concerning caramels and kinks, but i still want one. i'd wager that many of the bee's and other spider morphs on the market have some wobbling in their lineage. well, then again all do if the founding male had a wobble. they have to be bred anyhow for any research to be done, investigating the cause and genetics of the wobble. i'm not a geneticist, or do i have plans to become one. i hope the issue is figured out eventually, but the fact remains that there are thousands already in circulation that will interfere with ever eliminating it.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

but the fact remains that there are thousands already in circulation that will interfere with ever eliminating it.

which is the whole POINT.. it is all the more reason for good breeders to crack down to not circulate more.


you can't just say.. oh.. too late, why bother now.. We need to crack down now.

(and again, just so you know, this is not just about you.. this is the situation in general.)

Originally Posted by R. Eventide

knickers in a twist

There's a lot of discussion on these forums, and the interplay of ideas makes the hobby strong. I actually think the discussion was quite civilized, hop over to the BOI and you'll see some real get down conversations.

There IS a quite a bit of controversy about genetics, hope your lingerie drawer is well stocked

are you advocating a boycott on all spiders/crosses? even the non wobblers originated from a wobbler, yet they wound up on the market somehow. as long as people are aware of the issue is what's really important. i won't judge what anyone does other than me, myself, and i.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

are you advocating a boycott on all spiders/crosses? even the non wobblers originated from a wobbler, yet they wound up on the market somehow.

Did they? I guess I do not know the person who owned the original ever spider morph, therefor I do not know if it was a wobbler.

Yes, I do think people need to be educated on the issues, and left to make their own choices.


MY choice.. is to never purchase from someone who breeds deformities. One eyed albinos.. kinked whozits and upside down faced whatzits. TO ME.. I can not see a reason to .. other then to make money. I have some boas that are poss het kahl albino.. if they breed.. and produce a no eyed albino.. .. they will not be bred together again.. and that eye-less guy will be freezer food.. (yup.. freezer eats them, nom nom)

And yes, I know that goes into a completely different argument regarding the rest of those albinos..

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

Originally Posted by lucille

There's a lot of discussion on these forums, and the interplay of ideas makes the hobby strong. I actually think the discussion was quite civilized, hop over to the BOI and you'll see some real get down conversations.

There IS a quite a bit of controversy about genetics, hope your lingerie drawer is well stocked

Yes, this conversation is staying reasonably civilized, which I appreciate.