Selective spider breeding

It sounds like the original stock animals need to be examined closely as well as each successive set of offspring to see where the flaw appeared. Only when the breeding records are made available (if they were indeed kept in a scientific manner) will there be any chance of making a well informed hypothesis as to the origin of the problem as well as a planned course of action to eliminate the undesirable trait while retaining the morph in all of it's glory. That is truly one of the greatest flaws to our hobby which dog and cat breeders have done a fairly good job of working out through reputable organizations that keep breeding records and pedigrees (AKC among others.) Breeders, prospective breeders and pet owners can research their pure-bred animals ancestry as reported to the organization. I know it's been tried before with herps and failed miserably but, damn, the least we could do as hobbyists and breeders is to keep records and be more than willing to share them with the rest of the community when something like this arises.

I love the spiders and bees, can't afford them at this time and wouldn't purchase a questionable animal with this possible genetic flaw even if I did have the $$. I feel deeply sorry for anyone who laid out this kind of money and got one with people making all kinds of claims but not coughing up a dump truck load of records to assist in scientifically qualifying the possible problem and solutions.

Originally Posted by Double "D" Reptiles

... That is truly one of the greatest flaws to our hobby which dog and cat breeders have done a fairly good job of working out through reputable organizations that keep breeding records and pedigrees (AKC among others.) Breeders, prospective breeders and pet owners can research their pure-bred animals ancestry as reported to the organization. I know it's been tried before with herps and failed miserably but, damn, the least we could do as hobbyists and breeders is to keep records and be more than willing to share them with the rest of the community when something like this arises.

Very good points!

As an animal breeder who has only recently gotten into HERPs I take both dog & rabbit experience into my herps; AKC has it's good & bad, but record keeping is definitely on the plus side.

Also I worked with a co-dom trait in producing Holland lop rabbits this trait is homozygous lethal (which is why I believe the Spider was line-bred to the extent it was; another possible homozygous lethal trait).

Line breeding CAN re-enforce many specific GOOD things in a trait- the downside is it also will magnify ALL flaws. In rabbits where we know MUCH more about the genetics; they will line breed to 3 generations MAX! Yet in snakes, line breeding well beyond that limit happens all the time- YIKES!

Yes, I am tainted with prior mammal experience. It may be overkill, but unless I'm proving out a CH or WC I will try refrain from line breeding- and under no circumstance beyond 3 generations.

First off, good luck convincing all the people who paid 2 or 3 grand for their wobble headed spider not to breed it. Your convictions, while noble and formed with the best of intentions, simply will not be held by the vast majority of keepers despite the apparent support you have from the contributors in this thread.
If it was possible to seperate the the gene responsible for the spider pattern from the gene responsible for the wobble, it is far too late to do so.
That being said, I'm not sure they can be separated in the first place. It is my understanding that the wobble is not something that popped up at some point in the project and wasn't culled, the original founding male had it.

Perhaps he just happened to be carrying an additional gene which caused the wobble, or perhaps that gene is actually linked to the spider gene itself and is present in all spiders with only the intensity of the effect being the variable.
If it is a separate gene entirely then it is not recessive. It's also not codominant either. It's been demonstrated that non-wobbling parents can produce offspring with the wobble and vice versa. If it were codom or dominant then the parent would have to have the wobble in order to produce offspring with it.
If it were recessive, then a wobbling spider bred to a normal would almost always produce a non-wobbling clutch and the numbers of specimens exhibiting the condition would be far less.

The only factor that supports the idea that the wobble gene is not genetically linked to the spider gene is it has been claimed that a few normal spider siblings have been born with the wobble. I personally am not convinced this is true. I have hatched 100% normal ball pythons from snakes that have no spiders in their history that have exhibited a wobble very similar to that seen in spiders, but they only did it at feeding time, an effect of high alertness. This behavior disappeared in less than a year as muscle control developed.
I think it's possible that people have seen this in spider siblings and attributed it to the spider wobble effect.

The fact that individuals who have never exhibited the wobble can produce first generation offspring who do, makes it extremely unlikely that you could even isolate the gene so it could be removed from the pool.
At this point I do believe the wobble condition is genetically linked to the spider gene, but some individuals simply suffer from it very mildly or not at all. Since they can still produce wobbling offspring, it's obvious that despite the fact they don't wobble, they still possess the gene.
It will be interesting to revisit this subject in 10 years to see if anyone will be capable of even putting together a closed breeding group in which no wobbles are ever produced. If that happens then my theory will be proven incorrect, but it will take MANY wobble free clutches and a number of generations to gain enough data to conclusively say the condition has been eliminated from a given group.
I'm not confident that will happen though, and as far as eliminating the wobble from captive bloodlines entirely, I'm afraid that's an all but impossible goal.

Clay,

Good points.

I also question the report of non spider siblings showing the spinning. This is the first place I've heard of that.

I have however heard from more than one large breeder that ALL spiders exhibit the problem to some degree. It was suggested that a good test would be to touch your spider on the nose and watch it flip out.

However, I'm not ready to completely discount the claims by some to have, in some cases large numbers, of non spinning spiders. There has to be some variable as to why the tendency to spin is more pronounced in some spiders than others and why it can vary within the lifetime of an individual spider. I think figuring that variable out might be our best bet to treat the problem.

Given the unprecedented degree of outbreeding in the spiders to date with almost no inbreeding I strongly suspect that it's the spider mutation its self that is causing the spinning and not a separate gene that could be bred out. Just like white sides and reduced pattern the spinning seems to be another expression of the spider mutation. Sure we can keep trying to cull the spinning out and it might eventually work some how by stumbling on a gene that compensates for that symptom or a slight further mutation of the mutant allele of the spider locus to keep the pattern but leave the spinning behind but it also might never happen.

I think our best bet is if we can validate claims of collections with large numbers of spiders showing little evidence of spinning and figure out what the variable is (nutrition, temperature, humidity, etc.) and hope to find a treatment. Unfortunately, when finances are involved reliable information can be hard to come by.

It won't be easy, but I feel it has at least the same chance of success as the idea of weeding out the kinking in Caramel Albinos.
I've touched Sam(my spider male-non-wobbler) on his nose a lot of times, he's NEVER shown any wobbles. So the idea that you can see wobbles in every spider is false(unless I have the ONLY known one in existance, which I doubt).
I've noticed that people who produce little to no spiders, tend to say things like "All spiders exhibit it" while large producers of spiders will deny that it happens often. Whether thise would be delibrite(I doubt that) or whether it's a case of kennel blindness(my personal theory, MY snakes don't have any problems although everyone else's snakes might have problems) I'm not sure.
I do know that Hepburn wobbled when she came out of the box, but I didn't notice that it was something wrong, I was putting her quickly into a bin to relax after being shipped to me. When I examined her about a week later(plenty of time to settle in) then I immediately noted this horrifieing wobble. I called Neil Golli, in a total panic thinking IBD. He reassured me over that, and described the wobble syndrome.
The seller told me on two occasions that they HAD a wobbler. He repeatedly told me he would breed her no problem, he hadn't wanted to sell her anyway, and would replace her with a hatchling(she is 600 grams at this point due to him not returning emails, waffling over whether it was a problem etc). When I told him a hatchling was unacceptable he waffled more. Last time I heard from him (Cornered him at a show) he assured me he would get a replacement at about the same size. That's the last I heard from him again. At this point, I'm trying to gather all my emails to go to the BOI on it.
We'll see eventually.
Theresa

Originally Posted by Wolfy-hound

...
I've touched Sam(my spider male-non-wobbler) on his nose a lot of times, he's NEVER shown any wobbles. So the idea that you can see wobbles in every spider is false(unless I have the ONLY known one in existance, which I doubt)... IBD. He reassured me over that, and described the wobble syndrome.

Theresa

My Spider is also wobble free. She enjoys when I touch FT rat noses to hers then she engulfs their heads in her mouth easier. She's never wobbled & at 2 years I hope she never does. If she did, she would not be bred- period.

I am aware that other folks may or may not cull to the degree I will- to each their own. Change starts one person at a time, if enough folks feel it's important enough to do you soon have a trend. I will closely observe my spider's hatchlings and I hope I won't see any wobbles- if I do they will not be bred.

To worry about what someone else does & use it as a reason to lower my standards sounds too much like making an excuse. Excuses are used to keep folks from making changes. I feel this is important enough so I'll do the culling. What others do, good luck to them. Perhaps I'm doing overkill, but as long as I'm doing what I love I'll do it in a way I feel is proper then it's all good.

And YOU will one day be that person with the completely wobble-free bloodline perhaps. Because you value qulaity above all else.
Kudos to you.
I see people breeding their limping little poodle-dogs with bad knees, and I'm sure some breed the kinked back caramels, and the wobble-headed spiders. Don't make it right.
Wolfy

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?

Originally Posted by NorthernRegius.com

I will closely observe my spider's hatchlings and I hope I won't see any wobbles- if I do they will not be bred.

Herein will lie your problem though. If your spider does produce offspring with the wobble, then your female will be shown to possess the gene that causes wobbling, in whatever form it might be. If your intent is to attempt to get rid of the gene and develop a wobble free breeding group, then your female must be retired as well. It isn't enough to just cull the wobbling offspring because if you are working on the assumption that the condition can actually be eliminated then the non wobbling siblings will also carry the possibility of producing wobbling offspring just as their wobble free parent did.
The first wobble that is produced results in the necessity of restarting the project with a new wobble free founding animal until you eventually acquire one that never throws a wobbler.

Until now I would have never imagined actually using that many variations of the word wobble in a single paragraph......

At any rate, I do sincerely wish you luck in developing a group that is genuinely wobble free. I would love to think that is possible, but at this point I still hold the position that it will not be accomplished. Until proven otherwise I believe the wobble trait is genetically linked to the spider gene, and a certain percentage of individuals simply do not exhibit the symptoms.
Based on that belief, I expect you will produce some with wobbles regardless of how many founding animals you use in the attempt.
Hopefully I am wrong.

Wobbling was the dirty little secret of spiders for a long time, especially when they were asking 15 grand each for one. No one wanted to rock that boat load of cash. Now that it has become common knowledge, some apparently believe it was introduced or spontaneously manifested itself somewhere along the line when it was actually there from the beginning.
I fully agree with Randy in that we also need to examine whether there are any external influences which can cause the condition to be manifested to a greater or lesser degree. There has to be some basis for the variance seen with this condition ranging from barely noticeable to incapacitating.

Hahaha, I can't read that without laughing. Having to use the term "wobble" just makes it sound like 'seseme street does science.' Oh man...
I was thinking about that same point, that the parent that threw the wobbling offspring would need to be eliminated as well. If you used a male and female spider to produce the offspring, you'd have to individually test each one to see who threw it. Not to mention if you have a wobble-headed one in a clutch three years later from the same parent, do you go back and cull out all of the siblings? It gets comlex quickly, BUT by eliminating all the wobble-headed ones only, you are still doing better than simply breeding all of them, wobble-headed ones too.
Ever TRY to say "Wobble-headed ones"? I keep going "Wobble-headed Wons" and now my neighbor at the coffee shop is laughing at me.
My tongue is cramping now.
Wolfy