Selective spider breeding

you are truly misunderstanding what i'm saying. number one, he did not wobble until he was around three. i bred him at two years old. and if you could find a home for for your normal, where he could receive all the attention instead of a fraction, wouldn't you rather it had that then a life in a rack? the fact that he's breeding size is why i listed him as so. i am new and really trying NOT to ruin my nonexistant reputation. i would rather someone buy it at a real discount and appreciate it to its fullest, than to have it just being maintained here. i love the breed and always have. seriously have you looked at my ads? i'd much rather trade off all my hatchlings for different morphs t han to sell them and make a killing. i just want what what the big dogs have in their collection (beautiful, rare ball pythons, and i cant afford a 5 figure snake. iguess i'll cut the price more cause apparantly $275 shipped for a full grown animal witha defect is unreasonable. regular breeder sized males sell for what nowadays? 400, 500, 600? if i was in it for the money don't you think i woul've just sold him as a "breeder spider" and tried to get full price. i have him priced low, if i gave him away would that appease you?

and by regular breeder size males, i was referring to non wobbling spider males of breeder size.

thats not what i'm saying. every one knows that a ball can get to breeding size within 18 months or so. when i was keeping balls as pets, i didn't have them on a power feeding schedule. i fed them a mouse or rat (depending on the size of the snake) once a week, or in some cases every other week. a million dollars is made of a million one dollar bills. im not rich and every dollar counts in my house, whether its saved or payed towards bills. so yeah, one rat (however trivial it sounds) does make a difference. i clip coupons too, in case you were wondering

I'm kind of confused. Wobbler Spiders can produce wobbler or non-wobbler offspring. Non-wobbler Spiders can produce wobbler or non-wobbler offspring. So wobbler and non-wobbler Spiders can, theoretically, produce the same percentages of wobbler and non-wobbler offspring. So what's with those breeding non-wobblers being all fine and dandy but those who breed wobblers the scum of the Earth? Without additional research, we have no idea if we can even somewhat breed out the wobble problem.

Granted, not breeding wobblers might be a step in the right direction, but I don't see why people look down their noses at those who breed wobblers. As of now, we have no evidence that non-wobblers produce more non-wobbler offspring than wobblers (that I know of, anyway--feel free to correct me).

In a similar vein, have people heard of any Woma morphs with the wobble? I have one who appears to be a minor wobbler (I've only had her for two months, though--need to give her more time). The Woma pattern is very similar to a Spider, but it's a different locus, so I don't see why a similar-appearing pattern would tend to show similar neurological problems. Besides, I'm sure there are a smattering of other wobblers who are a variety of morphs, but since the wobblers are not common with respect to other morphs, no one really pays it much attention.

(I have yet to decide whether to breed the female Woma or not. I need to see if the wobble is a persistent thing or not. Also, I may breed her to see if any of her offspring show wobbling and make my decision then.)

Originally Posted by zacalaca

if you could find a home for for your normal, where he could receive all the attention instead of a fraction, wouldn't you rather it had that then a life in a rack?

Steve said that normal was a PET...are you really insinuating that, because he utilizes a rack for convenience and space consideration, his pet would receive more attention and have a better life elsewhere??

Originally Posted by zacalaca

i would rather someone buy it at a real discount and appreciate it to its fullest, than to have it just being maintained here.

What does the price paid have to do with how much an animal is appreciated? Besides, your statement has been that while he's in his enclosure he's fine...so one could easily try to argue that life in a rack, being left alone (aside from routine care), would be better for him than being in a place where he is routinely sent flailing and twisting because somebody is "appreciating" him.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

iguess i'll cut the price more cause apparantly $275 shipped for a full grown animal witha defect is unreasonable. regular breeder sized males sell for what nowadays? 400, 500, 600?

Last year, when I realized that my male spider was actually female (yeah, I know, I hadn't checked before), I did some looking. At that time, 2-4 yr old males were advertised anywhere from $400 shipped to $500 obo. I didn't buy one because I didn't find any that had the look I wanted.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

if i was in it for the money don't you think i woul've just sold him as a "breeder spider" and tried to get full price. i have him priced low, if i gave him away would that appease you?

For me, personally, I wouldn't care if you were asking full price...or if you gave him away. As I have already said, it's your snake - you can sell it for any reason you choose, and at whatever price you deem reasonable.
If you were to sell it as a "breeder", WITHOUT disclosing the degree of wobble, I would think negatively of you (not that THAT means a whole lot of anything). The difference is that being honest about the condition garners you at least some level of support....just because I have stated where our views differ, and why I (and many others) would not be interested in that animal, does not mean that I am "against" you.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

every one knows that a ball can get to breeding size within 18 months or so. when i was keeping balls as pets, i didn't have them on a power feeding schedule.

FWIW, there is no reason to have balls on a power feeding schedule just because you are breeding them now. What is the main goal of an accelerated feeding schedule, if not to get the animals to breeding size sooner? That would seem contrary to some of your other statements here.

Originally Posted by R. Eventide

So wobbler and non-wobbler Spiders can, theoretically, produce the same percentages of wobbler and non-wobbler offspring.

I honestly don't know where the percentages would fall, but I have heard anecdotal accounts which would seem to indicate that there is some benefit to breeding solid nonwobblers...and that breeding severe wobblers produces a higher proportion of wobbling offspring. Most people that breed severe wobblers aren't really upfront about it, though....either that, or it isn't as common as some would have us think.

Originally Posted by R. Eventide

So what's with those breeding non-wobblers being all fine and dandy but those who breed wobblers the scum of the Earth? Without additional research, we have no idea if we can even somewhat breed out the wobble problem.
Granted, not breeding wobblers might be a step in the right direction, but I don't see why people look down their noses at those who breed wobblers.

he latter part of your first statement seems to indicate that people haven't been trying, or that this is a somewhat new situation (well, in the big picture, it IS relatively new - spiders have been around for, what?, maybe 10 yrs?). A lot of people care enough to look for rock solid animals for their breeding projects...and a lot of people don't. It really is too soon to say if it can be reduced through selective breeding because most people aren't doing multi-generational studies. Also, as evidenced by the animal we have been discussing, some spiders start to demonstrate the problem a couple years down the road (from what I've heard, breeding is a common trigger).
As to the attitudes you see when this subject comes up, it boils down to what people think is best for the hobby as a whole. Many people don't like to see others cutting corners, as it reflects negatively on snake breeders as a group. Promoting the breeding of a flawed animal, just because it CAN breed is something to be discouraged. Liken it to breeding a dog with hip dysplasia, or any breed specific problem (not the best example, I know, but it gets the point across).

Originally Posted by hhmoore

he latter part of your first statement seems to indicate that people haven't been trying, or that this is a somewhat new situation (well, in the big picture, it IS relatively new - spiders have been around for, what?, maybe 10 yrs?). A lot of people care enough to look for rock solid animals for their breeding projects...and a lot of people don't. It really is too soon to say if it can be reduced through selective breeding because most people aren't doing multi-generational studies. Also, as evidenced by the animal we have been discussing, some spiders start to demonstrate the problem a couple years down the road (from what I've heard, breeding is a common trigger).
As to the attitudes you see when this subject comes up, it boils down to what people think is best for the hobby as a whole. Many people don't like to see others cutting corners, as it reflects negatively on snake breeders as a group. Promoting the breeding of a flawed animal, just because it CAN breed is something to be discouraged..

exactly. The issue that people are having, is that not enough people are focusing on the non wobblers. It takes a LONG time to genetically strengthen a line. not just a generation or 2. So it takes a LOT of people, breeding only non wobblers, MANY MANY years, to see if it truly makes a difference in what is produced.

This is why it is a "hot" issue. because there isn't enough long term resources on it to prove it out. And with tons of new people coming to play the "breeding game", many people are cutting corners, buying the cheaper snakes, which are usually lower quality (brown pastels, kinked caramels, super wobblers, etc) which leads to more and more low grade/defective animals being pushed onto the market every year..


Many people in this industry have/are trying very hard to strengthen lines, improve them, etc.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

if you could find a home for for your normal, where he could receive all the attention instead of a fraction, wouldn't you rather it had that then a life in a rack?

He gets the same attention and care as any expensive morph would get.

a day is made up of 24 hours, correct? have you heard of an opportunity cost? are you saying that a person (of course this varies on the character of the person) who has one snake, cannot pay more attention to that snake than someone with hundreds to maintain? time is valuable, i keep a small collection, not because it's all i can afford, but i have work, school, and most importantly a three year old son. my collection is sized so that i don't have to take any time away from my son to clean more tubs on top of the ones i do now. i have balance this way.
i dont take offense to any of these comments, if anyone truly knew me they would know i always try to do the right thing. look at my myspace page and check out the photos, i live what i say. i am a family man, a hard worker, an animal lover, and i try to live with dignity. had i known about the spider issue- i may or may not have purchased him and his bro originally. but i did. people sell snakes on this sight. are people insinuating that all animals offered for sale are unwanted? no, they want to progress as collectors or breeders, and selling offspring is a means to do so. thats all i'm trying to do, it's not that i think ole' wobbly is useless or superflous, but i'd rather have something else. either way, i will keep the ad up and hope that the right kind of individual purchases him. i wont lose sleep over over it either.

Originally Posted by zacalaca

i wont lose sleep over over it either.

I don't think you will lose any sleep over it, because you still don't get it, do you, that each of us can make the hobby better or worse depending on what we do. You could have offered him up as a pet, but here is the title of your ad:

"Wobbly Spider breeder male $275"

your right, i should've titled it differently, and i might rework the ad. but many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not-as i was just attracted to their apperance and had never even heard of kingsnake or fauna when i bought the pair. so are you saying that everyone who has purchased a spider knowing about the issue is wrong for doing so? or breeding them knowing even if theirs was a nonwobbler, that perhaps one of the offspring might have problems? do you own a spider? have you bred it? than you are as much a part of the problem as i am since non wobblers can produce wobblers too.