is this a desparate business in need of funds?

Originally Posted by SPJ

I am also curious to see how many of the people that think MKR did nothing wrong by unloading 50 mojaves at dirt cheap prices a week prior to Daytona actually has a significant amount of money tied up in BP morphs?

It's no secret that I don't have any. I've stated many times that I think the BP market is unrealistically high. I have a set idea in my mind about how much I'll pay for ANY snake. It's not whether I can afford it or not. And no it doesn't mean I don't love my snakes and this hobby as much as somebody who pays 1000's or even 10,000's for one. I do see a few posts where well known breeders don't seem to have a problem with it, so it's not just "poor" people who are siding with the free market concept, and that think you can still make very good profit with these things even if it's not at a 10,000% profit margin.

Originally Posted by SoulSmilen

Greed.. there is still the potential for a decent return on the investment of any of these snakes. Decent means profit in a business and any business you get into you should expect no profit for the first 2 years.

If I paid 2K for a pastel last year and only have one male to breed and I sell the babies for even the reduced price this year, it's not going to take that many to equal my 2K investment, even adding expenses into it. If I can't do it in one year, I can damn sure do it in two, which is still better than what is taught as the expected return in a new business. No, maybe I won't make 1K or 10-20K per snake like people are used to in the recessive morphs, but then again, I'm not all about greed.

Let's face it, the bp market has been dropping for a while with the main investments being albinos and piebalds anyway. They're 'old news' and the market was flooded with these already. So MKR should have set a limit on how many they produce so as not to upset the rest of the breeders?

You misunderstood what I said about the Daytona thing.. my comments were about them being threatened if they DO show up. Yeah, I really want to do business with people who resort to that kind of bullying. (insert sarcasm) Anyone threatening bodily harm because their turf isn't as successful as they planned on it being would be enough to do damage to the business of the one doing the threatening. Big breeders threatening bodily harm is worse, and will affect the market, because the little consumers like me will see that and do just what I did, decide to go elsewhere with the business.

Business is business, MKR and others like them breeding on a smaller scale got into the bp morph counting on these co-doms; they didn't get into the business when people were investing and breeding long term for the recessives. Their marketing will be different simply because of that, that's the way the ball bounces. It's the American way of enterprise.

First of all.....I have these animals because I LIKE them. It has NOTHING to do with me being greedy, TYVM. And I'm not sure what the sentence, "Decent means profit in a business" actually means....?

And you still didn't answer my question, you siad that you never referred anyone to MKR in the past, but you will now. Why? They have done nothing different than they have in the past, besides crashing the Mohave market. What have they done to EARN that referral from you?

I'm also curious...which "big breeders" that you used to refer people to actually made threats? And where do you get the idea that MKR breeds on a "small scale"???? Do you have any idea how many animals they have/produce?

Originally Posted by SPJ

I am also curious to see how many of the people that think MKR did nothing wrong by unloading 50 mojaves at dirt cheap prices a week prior to Daytona actually has a significant amount of money tied up in BP morphs?

Steve, from what I've seen, I'd gather that about 99% of those who have posted here supporting what MKR has done does NOT have any significant amount of money already invested in Ball Pythons.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the original ad on KS selling the Mojaves for $800.00 say that Morph King was doing this because they were NOT going to Daytona? If it wasn't the Mojave ad I know it was in one of their ads. Is there a list of vendors in Daytona anywhere? Is Morph King on it?

Oh and by the way here is another ad right here on Fauna for $800.00 male Mojaves and male Spiders for $950.00.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/pp_c...?product=25555

Originally Posted by RJBILBY

Oh and by the way here is another ad right here on Fauna for $800.00 male Mojaves and male Spiders for $950.00.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/pp_c...?product=25555

That was posted yesterday......look around BEFORE MKR posted theirs for that price, you won't find any like that. People figure they better unload what they have now.

Originally Posted by Cat_72

That was posted yesterday......look around BEFORE MKR posted theirs for that price, you won't find any like that. People figure they better unload what they have now.

I thought I was the jaded, cynical person. You can probably go back any year before any expo (especially the biggest one) and find many similar sales. People have a set amount for what they put aside or are willing to spend at these things. It's the "american way" to try and get a hold of that money before it gets in that room with 150 (or whatever the numbers are)other tables. That sale MKR had was a blip, sold them before most even knew what was going on. The people who bought them were either people scooping them up because they knew they could turn around and make close to a 50% profit on them the next day, which I doubt was any, reading this thread, because it seems the complainers don't really think they are worth what they say or they would have done just that, or maybe as soulsmilen mentioned......greed, there was no 3 or 4 figure profit margin so forget 50% that is indignant. The other buyers, IMO are people who would not have bought them at the current "worth" under any circumstances. JMO, and since I don't own any five figure snakes, I'm sure it's easy to write me off as jealous or whatever, if that makes all the ranters feel better. I do know for a FACT that several big breeders who do, think this is much ado about nothing.

Originally Posted by Cat_72

First of all.....I have these animals because I LIKE them. It has NOTHING to do with me being greedy, TYVM.

You have them because you like them; that's great, I do too. But you breed them because you want to make money at it, even if it is just the icing on the cake. I wasn't directly referring to you as greedy, more to the mentality that "I need to make (insert exorbitant number here)x my investment..." which refers to those selling at the inflated prices for so long; namely, the big breeders who have been at it for years.

And I'm not sure what the sentence, "Decent means profit in a business" actually means....?

Quoted from your post previously:

Then there's those like myself, who scrimped and saved to buy a snake that they truly found as awesome, and really hoped to be able to get a decent return from the investment, besides having that animal to enjoy for themselves. MKR crapped on them as well.

Easy, it was a reply to your use of the word 'decent'.. you commented on hoping to get a decent return from the investment. A 'decent' return from the investment means any profit in the first years of a business. If you actually meant more than decent, or over a longer period of time, well either of those is a completely different reference. There was no hidden meaning in it.

And you still didn't answer my question, you siad that you never referred anyone to MKR in the past, but you will now. Why? They have done nothing different than they have in the past, besides crashing the Mohave market. What have they done to EARN that referral from you?

They've been treated and reacted to with jealousy; business is business, and healthy pricing wars are fine, but to resort to vengefulness is too far. My choice to endorce them over others is just that, a choice. They have quality snakes and cater to both those who can and those who can't afford the higher priced snakes of equal quality. You will probably ask 'but why now?' See previous statement: "They've been treated and reacted to with jealousy; business is business, and healthy pricing wars are fine, but to resort to vengefulness is too far."

You voiced a choice to go elsewhere for your business, and I have the right to voice my choice, too; it's not a big deal. I'm not questioning your opinion and don't really know why you chose to question mine so directly while picking apart so many of my words. You defended your right to be upset (along with others that bought at a higher price), but I never said you didn't have that right. It's all about perspective; we're adults here, aren't we?

I'm also curious...which "big breeders" that you used to refer people to actually made threats?

I didn't make the comment about others threatening them, Ed Clark did; and his mention of it here is/was not the only mention of it.

And where do you get the idea that MKR breeds on a "small scale"???? Do you have any idea how many animals they have/produce?

Re-read the sentence...

MKR and others like them breeding on a smaller scale

... others like them (that are) breeding on a smaller scale
I didn't say MKR was small; I used them as a scale clarifier and then mentioned other breeders with a clear definition of scale.. smaller.

Originally Posted by SoulSmilen

but I never said you didn't have that right. It's all about perspective; we're adults here, aren't we?

Denise, while you and I are in agreement, I don't believe the above quote is quite accurate. It really boils down to some people being "business minded" while others are not. Those that are offended by (and not necessarily just MKR but any breeders pricing) simply are not business minded. They are emotional minded and have not taken the time to write out a true business plan with short and long-term goals. Those that did take the time will easily ride this hiccup out.

When I decided to get back into this I could see that the BP world was going through some turmoil and that a price correction would have to happen soon. I chose to go the boa route exclusively. Now that BP's have slowed down it's time to capitalize. Plain and simple. If your daily activities/sales are based upon that specific days market then you are surely going to be in a world of hurt at the drop of a pin.

Griz

Originally Posted by Griz

Denise, while you and I are in agreement, I don't believe the above quote is quite accurate. It really boils down to some people being "business minded" while others are not. Those that are offended by (and not necessarily just MKR but any breeders pricing) simply are not business minded. They are emotional minded and have not taken the time to write out a true business plan with short and long-term goals. Those that did take the time will easily ride this hiccup out.

When I decided to get back into this I could see that the BP world was going through some turmoil and that a price correction would have to happen soon. I chose to go the boa route exclusively. Now that BP's have slowed down it's time to capitalize. Plain and simple. If your daily activities/sales are based upon that specific days market then you are surely going to be in a world of hurt at the drop of a pin.

Griz

Griz, I will never understand your way of thinking. Perhaps you are more "business minded" than I, but not eveything comes down to money. Yes, I have both short and long term goals, and no, this is not going to "break me" and I will indeed ride this so-called hiccup out.

However...why is it that you keep stating that it all comes down to some of us "whining" about the prices? Sure, that didn't make me happy, but I am far more upset with the ethics and morals (or lack thereof) involved than the simple dollar signs. Perhpas ethics and morals are of no concern in your business minded world, but they are very important to me, and I will not do business with someone like MKR. Will the lack of businees from me break them? Of course not. If it makes me a poor businessperson to care about the "human factor" and not just the money, then so be it.

It all boils down to the fact that MKR purposely tried to hurt another breeder by dropping the prices so signifigantly.

Will others benefit by the price drop? Sure. But a lot who bought at much higher prices are upset about what was done. It just destroyed the value of the animal that someone may have had to save an entire year to afford.

Dumping 50 mojaves on the market in one week means there is mass production going on and MKR is only motivated by the money.

With MKR, more and more things are surfacing about them everyday.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a lesser from them for $50 just because of who they associate with.

There is more involved than price.
You could have the best animals at the lowest prices but if you associate with some of the lowest people who ever appeared in the herp market, you will not get one penny from me.