Enclosures by Design

While the idea sounds good, as Wes, has said the bad guys would just opt out and continue business as usual. Also organizations require money. This would be passed on to the customer. This would allow the people outside the organization to charge a cheaper route, which gives more incentive for the customers that are victims of the scammers in the first place (you know the ones that follow the quick rich fads, and deals that are too good to be true).

Second, as a relative newbie to the reptile industry, I've had a TON of the more experienced vendors talk to me via shows and normal business giving insite on who to work with, who to watch out for. Seems they don't mind mentoring companies that do business on the up-and-up. This is also shown on this site as questions about how to solve customer service issues, shipping protocol etc are answered all the time.

The thing is, a lot of these people could be put in jail (in criminal cases), which would force them out of business, atleast temp, and maybe some of the people ripped off will get part of their money back. Apparently the police, humane society, or wildlife commission doesn't want to arrest people for having reptiles in horrific conditions, or for a lot of the fraud that goes on. They just seem to shun the idea that a reptile is worth their time or anyone else's money.

Is it policing? My thoughts are that the laws are already written. We can't enforce them, but a large organization can pressure the law to do what they're already getting paid to do anyway. But my personal feelings towards this is to protect the reptile personal pet industry as a whole, from other organizations that may be trying to ban reptiles in North America. It could also help out the smaller, less-known breeders.

One of the big things about having a sort of a mediator-type role is that, if a petshop is willing to listen to somone, they can give them advice on things that need to be changed, to make their petshop acceptable. If the petshop does take the advice, no police or bad media for the reptile industry.

As of right now, I am working with a petshop for this exact reason. After seeing the conditions of this place, I wrote them a letter, explaining what I saw there, as well as gave them advice on how to make conditions better. I've also explained to them that they could be facing criminal charges and heavy fines for animal negligence and that there would be volunteers inspecting his store atleast once a week, and that if any more complaints were made, he would be turned over to the authorities, with the reports I've had on him. Yes, I can do shops locally, but I can't inspect them all over the country, where thousands of horrific petshops just like this one could be either corrected or exposed.

Using set standards doesn't have to bully someone's pet shop or breeder facility. It's more of basic guidelines that one should already be taking, for the health of their animals. For example, you (hopefully) wouldn't wanna see 5 adult mali uromastix put in a 10 gallon aquarium, stuffed in a dark, cold room, in a petshop. That's something that's unacceptable. Even if the petshop's idea is "hey, it doesn't matter, cuz we'll have them sold in a few weeks anyway"

Every rule/guideline would be thought up and voted on by its members and could be changed by its members. There wouldn't be anyone that could "Veto" a vote/rule, because it would be an organization of equal alliance members.

What it would not do/be: It's not about boycotting or spreading bad stuff about a petshop or breeder just because that place of business isn't in the alliance. It's won't be about being in an "elite" club. Anyone who accepted the set standards and honored them would be welcomed. A person or business in the alliance would not have to do inspections or volunteer work, although it might be encouraged. People in the alliance would NOT have to pay any membership or renewal fees, even though donations would be accepted.

But you've made a good point, Daniel. It does require money, but I don't really see it being taken out on customers, by charging them more for their animals or supplies. That would be like a 711 saying "hey we're going to charge .20 cents more per item for a donation to hospice attic" or something. That's kind of a forced way to do business, even if the customer doesn't know it.
If a breeder or petshop felt that the organization was helping to protect the industry he/she was in, I wouldn't see any reason why that person wouldn't take money out of his personal spending money to help out.

The money could possibly be had by going to some of the larger-known breeders/dealers and ask them if they'll give the organization some free advertising, to solicit donations, maybe put a paypal donation link up. Also, if that person owned a petshop, they could just put a cup out for donations.

A lot of the expenses are almost non-existant now though. With the help of the internet, we no longer need postal mail for normal letters.. Just send an email. Also, there are egroups, which every member of the group basically can email and collaborate through them. That eleminates the need for buying excess printer cartridges, sending out thousands of letters, printing them out, stuffing thousands of envelopes.. It'll also save a lot of $ on long distance calls. Saves both time and money.

With digital cameras, we can take pics of any proof of negligence in petshops or whatever as well. No need to buy expensive polaroid film, etc.

So, all in all, I think it's the work that's the hardest issue to overcome. Just thought I'd clear a few things up. Thanks for the replies wes and daniel

I've started another thread HERE to continue this discussion.


Don't want to take the spotlight off of Enclosures By Design / Upstate Exotics / Moonlight Media until Kris can get his money back.

I guess it really is impossible for a leopard to change its spots.

The whole ordeal Kris has had to go through is just shameful...
Why can the guy just not get what he paid for..? Sal & Alison.. you there..? It is so amazing when You (Sal and Alison) feel like you have been done wrong you come here, complain,, and gripe,, and whine,, and post and repost your side with details and all kinds of stuff,,, but a poor customer of yours wants something as simple as 1 enclosure and a tracking number showing it has been shipped,, and you cannot even get him that... you offer the refund of some of the purchase price,, and he can't get that either,,,
You Sal and Alison Suck! It is amazing to me how you can continue to screw people over and over and over,,,
Kris,, please file with Paypal,, and get your money back,, and run,, fast from a deal with Sal and Alison,, they are Scum bags,, and will never do you right,,,, Find a good company to do business with,, there are plenty out there who will do you right,,,
I hope you get your money back Kris,, as all of this is surely not worth it,,,
God luck Kris,,,

Just to keep everybody posted, still no word from Sal and Allison and my cage has not been delivered. I filed a complaint with paypal today and if that is insufficient to merit a response, I will pursue actoin through the buyer complaint system on KS. THanks for your support.

Kris

Regardless of what happens with PayPal, I would still strongly advise puruing every available action against Upstate. They have proven time and again that they don't have a clue as how to operate a business, whether it be remodeling, reptiles, or enclosures. As long as their victims continue to not pursue matters in the most aggressive manner possible, Sal and Allison are going to continue to pull the same crap over and over again.

As long as their victims continue to not pursue matters in the most aggressive manner possible, Sal and Allison are going to continue to pull the same crap over and over again.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ken. You would be doing a huge favor to many potential victims if you did as Ken suggested and pursued EVERY available action against them. I realize it is exhausting and time consuming, but that is what they are counting on. That you will get tired and give up.


Why do I have this sudden feeling of deja vu? :scatter:

But in order to solicite some repsonse from these lowlifes i was cruising KS and ran across there add selling what would probably amount to near dead snakes or severly problematic snakes.I could not resist the the chance to try to get some sort of response from them as to there postion on this case . here is a copy ofthe email i have sent them over there add

how is you can repeatedly post here and have the time to do so but have NO time to get in touch with a ALREADY paid customer on one of your enclosures that you gave a Bogus tracking number over a weekago and seem to thank that since you have someones hard earned money and they have NOTHING from you that this is making a wise buisness decision?Personally from doing this you are only proving how poor of a buisness you actually are .i would as many have already suggested that NO one should buy from someone who has such POOR customer service! i do not expect any reply from you or your many delequent buisnesses Sal& Allison as it would probably take to much of your time screwing other unsuspecting customers out of there hard earned monies. You should be severaly ashamed of the buisness you conduct. And to be honest you should be very lucky that the person you have screwed over is being diligently subdued in there attempt to collect what is duely owed them ... BUT wait ... there making the proper chanells to do so now so if i were you i would be in the fast paced refund track .. but then again you have to wait on something .... if this was you being screwed you would no doubt be screaming how wrong you were done what a pathetic name of a buisness you have you can change the name guys BUT THE SPOTS are still yellow

Has anybody that has been screwed by these guys filed a complaint with KS? It is amazing to me that they are allowed to even advertise on that site.

Is it possible that KS knows the situation but is blinded by greed? Frankly it wouldn't totally surprise me since they have demonstrated complete moral ignorance on other issues, but I would think this issue hits a little closer to home.