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Old 01-28-2003, 01:01 AM   #71
ms_terese
The sad truth is, snakes die...as do every other living thing.

Why must there always be blame? The animal was drinking, eating, soaking...and while it may have developed gout AT ANY POINT, how would one have known that? Did everyone involved with that animal act responsibly in the manner it which it was cared for? I'm quite certain they did, to the best of their ability and knowledge.

I've never met Adam, but I have no doubt that he's quite capable of caring for ball pythons of any age. I did meet Kevin at the White Plains show a few months ago, and each of his animals were beyond reproach and gorgeous. I can't imagine that Kevin doesn't know how to care for ball pythons, either....hatchling or not.

Adam, are you thinking that this is a genetic defect that is manifesting itself for the first time in this clutch? If so, can you conclusively say how many animals were born of this clutch, and how many of them perished because of gout? It seems that a genetic predisposition to gout is a long shot, and the likelihood of that decreases exponentially if you're talking about one animal. Throughout this, has anyone else come forward that has another animal from that clutch that has died? Has the confusion over which animals were from which clutch been cleared up?

I just think that entertaining the option of this being a genetic defect is really a wild hare with the information that exists.

In your initial post you stated that:

Quote:
Per the breeder this animal was born in August and based on this information there is no possible way the time frame of two months would have allowed the animal to be dehydrated for a long enough period of time that it’s uric acid or uric salt levels could have reached a point to cause it’s death from gout as opposed to dehydration. With that in mind the conclusion is that this overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect.
I know you've researched the causes of gout. Have you researched whether or not it is possible for a hatchling to become dehydrated over the time frame of 2 months, or are you basing that assumption on something else?

You stated that you thought the snake looked "like crap". What did it look like when you got it? If you didn't think it was in good condition, did you contact the seller then? Did you take it to a vet? Your posts indicate that you didn't think a thing was wrong with the snake until the regurge, yet you think the snake looked like crap. One regurge is not going to change an animals appearance noticably at all.

I just think that maybe there's alot of pride involved here. Adam stated that he hadn't had a snake die for no reason in a long time. He obviously feels he did everything right with this snake. So does Kevin. Most likely they both are right. Sometimes animals will develop a condition that is unforeseeable. IT HAPPENS. It doesn't happen often with good breeders/keepers, and both Adam and Kevin certainly fit into that category. Yet, it can and does and WILL happen.

I think there's alot to be learned from this thread, from this situation, if the primary agenda of proving who is at fault can be dropped.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 01:42 AM   #72
Double "D" Reptiles
And the Truth shall set us free.....

Well, I got what I was looking for and much, much more. I suspected from the beginning that it was one of a small handful of breeders in the US. I figured either Kevin, Dan and Collett Sutherland, Bob Clark, Ralph Davis or possibly 1 or 2 others who's names don't ring quite as loudly. BHB and Ralph were eliminated fairly quick so I was just waiting to see where it landed. Guess I should have known. I didn't figure it was Bob as he'll tell you he's not as "handy" at breeding the ball pythons as he is with burms and retics (still misses as much as he hits with breeding efforts sometimes.) So, that pretty well eliminated him and left only a couple more.

Darnedest thing is that if you want to know all about ball pythons, you go to the most knowledgable and that leaves the Sutherlands and Kevin...coast to coast. Want to know about high-end, perhaps Ralph needs mentioned, but heck, it seems that 2 names generally ring loudest when talking balls.

I'm glad that Kevin posted here and at least told his side of things. What I found funny is that my previous post seems almost a premonition of what was to come. (don't believe me, just go back a few pages and take a look.) I remember a few years ago when I needed some serious advice on a ball python and didn't have a way to get a photo to send for a visual aid. Kevin spent the better part of an hour on the phone with me and I'd done little more than write back and forth on a newsgroup once in while. I wouldn't know the man if he walked up and kicked me in the shin (of course, the same is true with Adam.) But I do know that I'd buy an animal from him without hesitation. Strange thing is that I believe I'd do the same with Adam. So, which one is right? Which one do I trust? One thing that my parents drilled into my head when my first wife left and we got divorced was "there's always 2 sides to every story and both will claim that their side is right." I'd trust and purchase from either of these guys.

So, my take is that regardless of blame or errors, this was simply an extremely unfortunate incident to which there may never be an answer. Lessons learned? Sure. But probably not the kind some would like to have been learned. Myself, I learned about an ailment which can and does attack snakes and I learned about ways it can happen. Smarter, wiser, glad? You bet.

Kev, thanks for letting us all know it was you who was going unnamed here. Considering the way it was going down, I'd say it took a pretty "big" man to jump up and say "hey, it's me! and here's my side of things." A lot of folks would have simply set back and let it play out while remaining silent. Kudos to you and all I can say is..."integrity before our eyes."

David
 
Old 01-28-2003, 01:44 AM   #73
Adam Block
Well, what about this?

You know, I think you're all missing the point by a long shot. There is no blame, the animal is dead and weather it was caused by Kevin or myself doesn't matter to me. I've also never said it was genetic. I don't know how it got gout and haven't left any possibility out. For all I know it wasn't able to or just didn't drink water weather it was there or not. None of those are my points but those are the only things being focused on.

As of yet not one person including NERD has addressed the 282 gram two year old they've sold. Not one person has looked at the issue and motive behind them selling an animal fresh out of the egg and not mentioning it.

I don't have an issue with Kevin as a person. I have an issue with the way he dealt with me on the phone. Animals die and I don't mind loosing the money. I do mind a breeder telling me without a doubt his animals are fine and there isn't a chance there could have been an issue on his end. I do mind buying an animal out of the egg and not being told this. I do mind hearing this breeder sold somebody else a 282 gram two year old ball.

If you want to focus on some things why don't you ask Kevin himself, if that's possible?

One thing I found odd, look at Kevin's post on here signed as Kevin. Look at the writing style closely.

I received a response to a PM I sent Kevin from Kara. Here is a quote and writing style sample from that PM:

Quote:
Adam, Hope you don't mind me speaking for Kevin - we often do so for each other. Evidently several things between your post & the phone conversations (and emails) you've had with Kev were written out of context in your post. You gave "your side" of things, so did Kevin. Between your emails and your posts, there are several things mentioned that could be construed at veiled threats, so considering the way you word things (which I'm sure you do) might not be a bad idea.
You will note the same style appears in the post signed as Kevin himself. That's fine as many people use the same grammar. However, I was looking at Kevin's distinct style of writing in an email he sent me and something seems fishy to me. Here's a sample of that:

Quote:
Hey Adam...why did you start posting all over the board of inquiry? Someone told me you did. I know very little about that stuff.

The het was a BABY!! Not a yearling!!!!! I think you have the snakes mixed up!

I am going to track down where the other albino littermate that went went too(in FLA).....I want to see if there was any problems there..
If you notice, not one use of a comma in Kevin's email even though they grammatically were called for. Also, there are a huge number of exclamation points and most sentences are ended with multiple punctuations. Neither the style of the post in the BOI however following suit with Kara’s writing style.

This may of course be chance but I don't know anybody that uses two sets of grammar! My question is, the email was from Kevin's email address and I don't know whom this post was from, Kevin or Kara? It may be Kevin but I would find it fairly upsetting if he is sending people here to post and sign his name.

With that I would like to ask:

1) Did Kevin write the post on the BOI?
2) Why was your 2 year old snake only 282 Grams?
3) Was this snake given water while on it's way to the show?
4) You mention the great record keeping you maintain, would you be willing to tell us who else bought babies from that clutch?
5) How many meals was that baby fed before being sold?
6) We've established your excellent reputation, with that said, why did you choose to bring such a young baby to be sold at the show?

I think these are all fair questions and would leave a foundation for where this thread should be taken. I have the answer to a few of these for fact but I would like to remove all doubt and hear what Kevin has to say before I address anything else.

Thanks for reading,
Adam Block
 
Old 01-28-2003, 02:12 AM   #74
DISCERN
Adam,

I think that you have way too much time on your hands by trying to grasp at straws by this new conspiracy theory about whether or not it was Kevin who posted or Kara.

I am very sorry about your ball python. Like others have said, this happens and there is nothing anyone can do. I have had snakes die before, and it was years after purchase. After reviewing everything I did and find no logical explanation, the fact remains that animals die, and a lot of the time we will never find out why.

If I were you, instead of having a friend buy snakes for you, especially expensive ones, save those purchases for when you are able to be there or are able to correspond personally and ask all the questions you want to ask and find out the information you need to know. That is what I would do. By doing that, you may have saved yourself a lot if not all of this by perhaps deciding not to purchase the snake.

Take care!

Billy Fraser
 
Old 01-28-2003, 02:26 AM   #75
Rob BryertonRKK
The time line on the first page of this thread gave the impression that the BP didn't even shed before it was taken away to the show. "8/02" "born in the same month" Those facts change everything.
I have purchased several Hets from NERD including 1.1 Het High Contrast Albino. All arrived healthy and plump and ate a defrosted rat within3- 4 days of arriving. All were at least 5 mos old except the .1 HetHiC Alb. My records show that she was hatched in August 2001 and she arrived @ the airport 10/11/01 so she wasn't necesarily 2 mos old when I recieved her. My mistake. They are all healthy adults now and have never had any health issues.
I also find it very hard to believe that Kevin would have and sell a 282 gram 2 year old Ball Python or that one would live for two years @ that weight. I received a 5 month female from him that weighed 625 grams.
I wouldn't hesitate to purchase more animals from Kevin.
I'm sorry about your loss Adam.
Rob
 
Old 01-28-2003, 02:44 AM   #76
ms_terese
Adam,

Well, now these are all points that are way off the initial thread, but what the heck....
Quote:
Secondly, if you would like to stick to saying the het was a baby you are surely helping my case, as that snake was 200 grams heavier then the albino. It may have been a littermate but is sold you sold it as a yearling. I would very much watch what you point out as fact and fiction as I intend to post the receipt and the report from the UofA so before you state fact think about what I may have to back up my story.
I think you should do that. Kevin has already said they were littermates. If you have proof that they were represented differently, post it. The necropsy report would be good too.
Quote:
Kevin, you've also yet to address the 282 gram 2 year old you sold to Rusty Davis that ended up dying.
I think Kevin addressed that with:
Quote:
I have no idea about this other person and if they did buy anything from NERD.
Get Rusty Davis to post the relevant information.
Quote:
12) The snake had a 1275-mile trip down to Daytona with or without water.
Kevin says the snake had water. How about that 2000 mile trip from Daytona to Tucson? How many days did it take, and what were the conditions?
Quote:
Not one person has looked at the issue and motive behind them selling an animal fresh out of the egg and not mentioning it.
Kevin stated:
Quote:
The clutch had hatched out prior to the show and had shed and began feeding, this period is typically at least 4 weeks before they understand what food is and begin to act like they understand what life is all about. All of the animals were feeding and fine when I brought them to the show, this fact is simple.
Now, it would be good if Kevin posted an actual hatch date, but keep in mind, Adam, that your dates/times, etc. have been a little sketchy on this one. Additionally, it seems you have vouched for your partner's knowledge of herps. With a snake that size, how old did he think it was? Did he ask? What was he told?
Quote:
1) Did Kevin write the post on the BOI?
For the life of me, I can't understand what you're getting at here, except that possibly Kevin took the time to read the post and correct any grammar/spelling/yadayadayada before clicking that send button. Or maybe he had Kara type for him? Does it matter? Are you thinking maybe Dark Villain is involved here as well?

Adam, come on. Read your first post. Read your latest post. Do you see a big swing?

You said YOURSELF the snake was healthy and eating and drinking. YOU WEREN'T DISSATISFIED WITH THE SNAKE OR ITS CONDITION UNTIL IT DIED SUDDENLY. Now you think the snake was too young to be sold. Now it may not have had water at the show. Now Kevin has a history for selling 2 year old emaciated snakes.

Adam, you believed that snake was healthy. Kevin believed that snake was healthy. It was obviously thriving when you received it and continued to for several weeks. No one's fault. Let it go.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 04:17 AM   #77
Gilbert Thompson
Adam,
In my opinion I would either prove it a genetic problem (if you can) or something resulting from the breeders practices!
If you can't do either one of those. I would let it go!!
As far as, this other guy (Rusty Davis)! Why is he not on here stateing his problems??
Kevin at Nerd is a top notch guy! I have spent hours on the phone with him while he was nice enough to answer my questions. I also personally know of an incident involveing another guy that Kevin made good on.
I am not saying this excuses him from any faults! We are all human. I am just saying prove it or let it go!
Just my opinions!!
Gilbert Thompson
 
Old 01-28-2003, 04:32 AM   #78
Greg Riso
My understanding is the demise of the ball python was caused by a build up of uric acid in the animal (gout). I won't pretend to be an expert on this subject but I can tell you I've seen many animals over the years with calcium salt blockages in the small intestinal tract area just prior to the vent. Whenever a new animal comes in or I inspect animals at a show it's one of the many things I check for. It tells me how aware the seller is of the animal's condition prior to sale and also explains why sometimes an animal looks bloated in the posterior area. In my own collection I constantly monitor for these white chaulky buildups by palpitating the rear ventral surface of EVERY animal I own on at least a weekly basis and each time I handle them. If I do detect a blockage I gently message the lumps towards the vent and out. Once the ball or lumps escape an immediate noticeable gush of urine follows sometimes under considerable pressure. From my personal experience with snakes this condition can happen in as little as two weeks. I'm not sure of the cause but whatever the reason I'm quite certain the animal's health is in jeopardy if the blockages remain unchecked.
In larger animals this is virtually never a problem but I do see it frequently in yearlings or less. The reason I'm bringing this up is, isn't it possible that this type of blockage could have caused the buildup of uric acid in the animal leading to it's death? After all if excretion is blocked the urine has nowhere to go and the snake will build up toxic levels of uric acid in it's system as a result. I also believe this may have been the reason why the animal regurged it's meal. The food from it's stomach simply had nowhere to go. With the regurge now even more fluids were lost furthur concentrating the uric acid in the animal's system and it may have just been the final straw.
Again, I'm not an expert but I do believe something as simple as this condition may have been the culprit for the Gout. I bet if each of you who reads this checks the animals in your collection right now you may find these deposits present and up until this point have never given it a second thought. Perhaps 99.9 % of the time nature corrects itself by eventually expelling this matter. There is, however, that 0.1% chance that it may not and a dead animal's the result. Everyone who's ever owned snakes has seen this white calcium salt excreted and knows what I'm talking about. Isn't it possible something as simple as this caused this animal's death?
In the past I've brought animals into NERD for Kevin to personally examine as they're only 30 min. from my location here in Southern NH. You know what one of the first of many things he does upon examining the animals? You guessed it, he palpitates the ventral surface from head to vent looking for any problems. I think anyone out there who doesn't do the same should consider adding this as a standard regiman of inspection for their animals. I know it helps me sleep better at night especially when big ticket high end animals are involved. Just a thought.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 04:33 AM   #79
Adam Block
It's great to hear all of these assumptions from you folks and it's nice that you're taking the time to post. However, what you think is something totally different then what Kevin may have to say. Why don't we, including myself leave any further posts to stay on topic.

If you have something good to say about Kevin say it. If you have had something like what I've outlined happen please say that as well. Otherwise, there is no need to assume as Kevin is posting and I am posting. If he chooses not to respond to my questions I'll have my answers, if he chooses to I'll have answers. Either way Kevin's responce or lack of will very much help me clear up my thoughts in this matter.

At this point I can't understand what any other posts asking questions about this can do. If nobody is concerned with the things I've asked of Kevin that's good enough for me. I wouldn't drop another $3000 plus with somebody who does business like that but that's only my feelings on it.

Adam Block
 
Old 01-28-2003, 05:09 AM   #80
Gilbert Thompson
Thank you Greg! I appreciate the information.
Thanks,
Gilbert Thompson
 

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