Why do we tolerate bad pet shops?

Ok, I don't understand how stores that are absolutely appalling even exist in this country (US). Last night I visited one that smelled strongly liked dead things and ahve 50+ reptiles where 75% had NO HEAT WHAT SO EVER. The majority of the animals were housed inappropriately. Many had completely dry water dishes (these weren't small water dishes either, so they had been neglected for many days). And this is in the city where the local herp society meets and the state capital.
Another store close to where I live there is mouse feces everywhere. Dust is covering the shelves. And reptiles are housed on the feces of the 6 animals that died in that cage previously. Iguanas are on sand. Tortoises and bearded dragons are kept together. Leopard geckos looking like they are dying of crypto are on display.
I'm not from here originally. I've only recently moved here for school. Yet, from what I've heard these stores have been like this for DECADES! How can a state with a herp society tolerate this type of care? How can the public ignore the smell of decay when they step in a store? How can state public health officials leave these stores open? (obviously these aren't just a risk to animal health, but human health as well).
I came from a town where stores were inspected by a local "humane officer" who had expectations they had to meet as far as cleanliness and animal care guidelines. If a customer walked into one of these stores and even saw a cricket floating in a lizard's dish would report them for inspection. Sure the stores were perfect, but they were forced to at least try. Either that or they'd be closed.

So tell me... WHY DO WE TOLERATE THIS? HOW CAN THIS BE ALLOWED? WHY DO I FEEL LIKE THE ONLY PERSON NOTICING THESE PROBLEMS? I mean, I have friends within the society and outside the society who before I went to these places told me "oh that place is really cool, nice store". Are they BLIND! Or is this the standard we're setting... none at all?

On top of it, we give large chains stores such a rap. But here, they are the only stores that are CLEAN. Husbandry leaves a few things to be desired, but the animals aren't being cared for as bad as these two mom-and-pop joints. Maybe that's why those chain stores are able to drive small stores out of business, they are CLEAN and don't SMELL!

So if you walk into a store and are made nauseous by the smell, disgusted by the caging, sadded by the animals' conditions. DO SOMETHING. DO NOT JUST LET THEM DO THIS.
Write your paper, write your ASPCA, write someone.
It's not about the stores just not knowing, it's about the stores not caring. Let them know that's not acceptable.

Why should we care? Can't we just ignore them? No. This poor care makes the whole reptile pet industry look bad. It allows for organizations like HSUS to have issues with reptiles in captivity and threatens are ability and right to keep these animals. We need to stand up and take responsibility NOW.

But someone will do something, I don't want to. The majority has that thought, does nothing. The few people who do things look like crazies and are blown off as such. I know, I've been labeled as that here. I write the letters and confront the stores. I get blown off cos no one else seems to be complaining. This is why you can't just leave it to someone else! The more people who complain the more action we will get!

So the ball is in your corner now. I've written my letters for these stores already, your turn.

As a person who loves herps as much as you this is very frustrating and sad, understandable. Though to the people who are appalled by such animals they could care less. Have you tried to get pet insurance her in the USA on any of your herps? I have and it does not happen, why is it that a reptile that will live 30 years not get insurance, but a cat that lives only 9 year will get the best quality insurance possible? This is a question that no pet insurance company will reply to, I have asked many of them. I have a great collection and I cannot get any help for them.

I have a few stores around here(San Diego) that are disgusting. i have spent a lot of time talk with the owners trying to understand why they would keep their herps in such conditions. I have even had to prove that I knew far more than they did and they were going to kill these animals. I have called the Humane society on them, I have spoken to regional directors, the list is long. What it comes down to is "they are just reptiles".

Some years ago a herp society around here took all the officers and went to each pet store to check in and make sure the stores were properly keeping their herps. Guess what, each officer went home ready to puke. They knew the conditions of the animals and reported the problems that existed, yet it does not matter to people who are afraid of snakes. A lot do not know about proper husbandry, so they see a snake in a clean cage and they are happy. Yet there is no heat, it is 70 degrees in the store and the snake needs a 90 degree environment. many businesses could care less what others think, no matter how many people are thinking it, take this thread for example, the owner of this business just does not care about others and his customers:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=73872

One store here in particular only cares for money, the owner has two stores and is known for being a millionaire, with articles written about how great this guy is. His stores are some of the worst, I know many that have bought an animal from him and it dies within 30 days because of parasites and other sickness that run rampent through his store. I have a friend who witnessed this guy sell a Burmese python baby to a 12 something year old kid without his parents around. This was not an employee but the store owner! Yes this guy has been reported numerous times, but he still gets away with selling the best worst quality sick animals around. It is all in the name of the mighty dollar. They put sick wild caughts in the same cage and healthy captive bred, it does not matter to them. All in all these stores do not make their money from the reptiles themselves, they make most of their profits from selling food and supplies, the reptiles are merely a display.

Many here have done what you are asking, yes chain stores are given a lot of bad rap here because we all know them. Just because you do not know the little Pets For People store here in San Diego that is great at killing reptiles does not mean we are not trying. Do not be so harsh on us, we are on your side fighting the enemies of reptiles. We too are writing the letters, calling the humane society, and piratically getting into fights with these stores. We all want the same as you do, clean stores and healthy reptiles.

For this reason many here breed their own reptiles, they know that their reptiles are healthy and sell them at lower costs than stores do. We spread the word to all our friends about the difference between the quality of store herps and private breeders herps. All my friends that know me will not buy from a store, they go to me first for a reptile they want. I will get them the quality they need for a healthy reptile with full info on care and husbandry before they buy. Being their friend I do not charge to help the get what they want. Believe me, we understand and we are acting to prevent these stores from existing, as you know it is not an easy fight. We are right there beside you in this fight.

I agree I have been reporting a local pet shop for a couple months now. The problem is the inspector comes in tells them to clean the cages and makes sure they do. End of story. The inspectors have rules and regulation for all the "fuzzy" animals, but none exist in Iowa for reptiles. Another thing is lack of eduation on the part of inspectors, their attitude is there are too many reptiles to learn the needs and wants of all of them. Most of the laws apply to "cleanliness" because "fuzzy"animals dont have the heat requirements of reptiles. Nonetheless I make regular trips to the pet shop and make phone calls to the inspectors for updates to make sure these animals are not forgotten. They will either take care of them or get tired of getting complaints about them and quit selling them, either way it works. But I do spend alot of time on the phone.

I'm in Iowa too. It appears that we're probably talking about the same stores. Email me. I think perhaps an organized approach to these stores might be a great idea. Actually that might even be applicable on a national basis. If I wasn't complete swamped as far as time is concerned I'd front that movement. Sadly, attending veterinary school takes all my time. ugh, finals.

Here's something I've thought about... letters to the editor about these stores in the larger local high circulation newspapers.

If they only care about money then it's about time to show them what kind of money bad press brings in.

"Many here have done what you are asking, yes chain stores are given a lot of bad rap here because we all know them. Just because you do not know the little Pets For People store here in San Diego that is great at killing reptiles does not mean we are not trying. Do not be so harsh on us, we are on your side fighting the enemies of reptiles. We too are writing the letters, calling the humane society, and piratically getting into fights with these stores. We all want the same as you do, clean stores and healthy reptiles."

But you see, this email isn't directed toward those who, like me, are doing things. It's directed towards those who I know are not. Kudos to you for doing something. Kudos to your society for taking a stance. But there are those that I know overlook stores. My own vet overlooks the problems in one of these stores because they give him deals on mice in exchange for vet care (which I don't ever see them using!) I personally would rather not sleep with the devil. Or the fact that our herp society allowed the store I spoke of that had tons of reptiles left cold to have a booth at our show! Sure they were selling products only, but we're helping THEIR business. How does that make us look?

I myself breed reptiles. Problem is the vast majority of pet reptiles in the US come from pet shops, whether we like it or not. While breeding reptiles and educating people is great, seriously great. I don't think it's the answer to this problem (however, don't STOP doing it). Pet stores are going to keep selling them, and most people are going to buy them there. For exanple, the AKC has launched many campaigns against buying puppies from stores. It has done very little good. I don't see the pet shops changing unless WE make them and WE bring them the bad press.

The problem I have seen with our society lately, which seems to be the case with many societies is that they band together with the pet stores. In trade the pet stores will advertise for the society, they pay for ads in the newsletter. They work together to build each other up, thus the society will not go after the store and the store gets more business.

With this I have lost a lot of respect for the society here, we rarely attend because of it. They will talk up how great a store is, yet in reality they are garbage. The stores that do not contribute to the society and have good quality are looked down on because they do not front any money.

Some states are widely trying to rid the keeping of reptiles as pets, imagine if every reptile store that is bad is reported, the government will see this as a need to rid all pet reptiles because the stores do not care for them. This is the way politics work. If we all freak out than politics will do something stupid. If you want to see how bright these people are look at the fight going on here just to legalize ferrets. California is the only state that still considers them wild, this link will show you how politics think, not the reality of things: http://www.ferretnews.org/misinfo.html

I am not trying to be a bearer of bad news, just get you and all of us thinking of ways we can do this. An impact would be great. I have a few stores here that have large display cages, great for frogs, but completely awful for reptiles. They do not have the ability to produce the right amount of heat needed. Here is a thought, maybe if we can get the cage companies to start building accurate cages for reptiles. We have all seen these cages with fake rock on the front and the beardies are only getting maybe 80 degrees in the hot spots when they need so much more. I have tried to get on store to place out an entire display for their beardies that would provide accurate heat and light. If they want to advertise why not have a complete set up with the beardies and a list of all that is required to keep them healthy. That way they can sell more than just a 10 gallon tank with sand and a light, because their display is proper.

I like to befriend the employees(kids who are hired with no experience in keeping reptiles) and teach them proper care. I have found this to make such a difference that they will start asking me advice on keeping their own ball python they just bought. If we can properly teach those who care, instead of those who own, than we are making a difference. I have a friend who has been fired from 3 pet stores in a matter of 6 months, because he likes to rearrange the entire store adjust the husbandry so it is proper. The owner wigs out and fires him, yet keeps the new arrangements because my friend knows what he was doing. there are others ways to do this without fighting and frustration, it lies to the hands of those in charge of the reptiles.

Another person I know who owns a pet store, he has trouble with each new employee because of their lack of knowledge. these kids seem to mess something up because they do not understand, but when they leave his store they all learn a valuable lesson in keeping herps. He has individual glass tanks with proper setups for the different herps he has. He has also moved on to selling dogs, he makes so much more money with them than he ever will with reptiles. he can sell one dog for the price of 10 snakes. But he loves his reptiles the most.

I worked at a petstore for 5 and a half years. I personally don't think it is any excuse to claim ignorance. It's the job of a store owner or manager to make sure their employees are given the knowledge and ability to care for these animals correctly. They can write SOPs for employees to use for reference and institute good and proper training.

You know what store had the best setups I've ever seen. The one that use to be owned by animal plastics inc. But they closed their shop to focus on building cages. But wait, they build cages. And if you want even nicer ones for your store, try Habitat Systems Limited also based in Iowa. They make habitat systems that are zoo quality. The cages are out there. They just aren't buying them. Why? Cos they don't have to. Why care for your animals correctly if it doesn't affect your business. After all cold, sick reptiles sell too in their minds.

Heather

I cannot even read the entire 1st post, its too long and too hard to follow.

BUT I can tell you why SOME, not WE if you mean ME or others that know better will allow a crappie pet shop to exist....

1. Lack of knowledge and a deep desire to have such animal
2. Lack of intelligence to find out what that animal needs
3. Lack of knowledge that you can buy from a good source
4. Lack of money to buy from a good source
5. Heat of the moment purchase without any future concern of what happens to a low cost pet store buy

Do I really need to go on?

WE do not buy from such places, WE do not let such places continue to thrive, WE call ANIMAL CONTROL everyday if need be, WE go to that store everyday if need be and YELL do NOT BUY THIS IT WILL DIE ON YOU.

WE, well, thats how WE SCREAM a PURE INTOLERANCE for these places, hey its not easy but nothing worth doing ever is!

So maybe you should ask why do I let this happen instead of why do WE, there are alot of people that are not in YOUR WE plan!

I've been making the same calls Bill has on the same store......you know, you would think the would get tired of the visits and either do things right or get out of the herps entirely....but evidently he's making money on them anyway, because he still keeps them. Or at least he did the last time I forced myself to go in there.

I think I'm about due for another visit though.......just to see if things have improved yet. I'm not holding my breath.

I don't tolerate them. I have not been in a pet store in a year to year and a half. I refuse to support them in any way. Not after flat out refusals to improve horrible conditions, being asked to leave for giving their customers proper info, etc.

I just shop online and at herp shows now. Pick up my dog and cat food at the grocery store. Pet stores do not even exist for me anymore.