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Old 10-05-2004, 01:20 PM   #11
psilocybe
Re: vet.....

Quote:
Originally posted by Hognose_311
Why do people come to conclusions??? Why not find out whats going on before you try and say things like that.......? I dont't take offense about the name thing i don't care.... But I only help with the surgery, my reptile store that i work for has a herpetologist/reptile proffessional vet there, and he just lets me help, plus i get it done for free, sorry for the misleading information, it didn't sound like what i was trying to say.... And i also have a eastern diamondback, a mountain pit viper, and my newest, a baby coral.... I have just been getting into venomous over the last year, and my profile's not updated...so sorry for leading anyone to think I do the surgery, but no i didn't know that my last name could be butcher with a "k" or whatever, that really had nothing to do with the post, but thanks for the cool information....lol
Interesting...most vets will not let an unqualified person anywhere near an animal during surgery...I have a few friends who are vet techs, and to even work in a vet clinic they need to be certified...

No offense, but I'm still having a hard time believing you that a vet is performing the surgeries on your animals.

Couple that with the fact that 99.9% of vets will NOT perform such a surgery...
 
Old 10-05-2004, 02:40 PM   #12
snakegetters
There's no question in my mind that the activities being discussed here are both unethical and illegal. A vet cannot legally or ethically allow a random person to "assist" in surgeries on animals belonging to other people.

This is the venomous discussion forum, and promoting venomoids or venomoid operations is not acceptable here. If you are unable to keep venomous snakes because you are too impatient to acquire the professional skills and tools necessary to do so safely, leave them in the zoo where they belong. Cutting pieces off of an animal so that you don't have to bother learning anything about it is not ethical husbandry. People who abuse snakes in this manner are not welcome in a responsible venomous keeper's forum.
 
Old 10-05-2004, 07:46 PM   #13
GinoInDaBronx
Oregon

Did anyone else notice that the person posting the ad on ks was based in Oregon? Could it be kevin smith or dick richey using a pseudonym? Or, could that be, the coward, smith, actually using his real name?
 
Old 10-05-2004, 07:54 PM   #14
robin d.
did i miss something here? who is dick richey (what a name )... reminds me of this band that plays around here.... the swinging richards. ok now back to the point who is kevin smith?
 
Old 10-05-2004, 08:35 PM   #15
Seamus Haley
Quote:
This is the venomous discussion forum, and promoting venomoids or venomoid operations is not acceptable here.
You know Tanith... I'm about as hardline antivenomoid as they come... But this is RICH'S website and it's for RICH to decide when and IF he wants this site to take a stand against the promotion of venomoids. Based on his response when it was requested that he not allow them in the classifieds, I don't think it's a fight he wants to get involved in and he's essentially left the site neutral in the ongoing debate.

Meaning Tanith... that it is not your place to decide what kind of discussion is or is not acceptable. Seems to be a major ongoing problem with you but I'm sure if you work at it, you'll eventually get that stick out. Try wiggling it.
 
Old 10-05-2004, 09:59 PM   #16
snakegetters
If pro-venomoiders post here, there are going to be some ugly, bloody, nasty flamewars whether I personally participate in them or not. They are not going to be welcomed by the responsible herp keeping community.

Whether Rich has specific rules on the subject or not, the end result of pro venomoiders posting here is going to be bad. They won't get any welcome here. If Rich wants to welcome them, he's going to have to do it personally, and if he does that the rest of us will pack up and leave. I don't think he's planning on that however.

Ken has already made it clear that posts about unethical and illegal activity are not acceptable in this forum. I'm echoing that message. Venomoiders go away. This is the venomous reptile keeping forum, not the home butchering forum.
 
Old 10-06-2004, 07:32 AM   #17
Hognose_311
First of all, i am not some random person, said by: snakegetters, i am a relative, and all i do is just help hold things, and he shows me how to do it....... I probably wouldnt even do it myself, because people get in arguments, like this one, or whatever this is considered..... I wouldnt do it anyway in case of harming the snake...I am interested in what other people think about this, but i don't see why its a big deal if I'm not harming someone or something, and NO...im not a vet..but still..im sure there could be some reason for being educated or knowing atleast a little something about venomoid surgery, am i wrong???
 
Old 10-06-2004, 09:40 AM   #18
Mustangrde1
I have sat back and just watched this thread. But now Hognose ask a question so to answer you let me ask you one.

Give me a Reason why its ok to perform a surgery on any creature that is based purely on profit?

Why perform an operation to alter an animal that you say you love it for what it is?

The surgery Is performed to give people a false since of security in owning a venomous reptile. It is not a guarantee it will never again have the capability to deliver venom." ill give you the reason in a minute"

Performing or ownership of an altered venomous reptile is not for the love of the animal. It is however human lust. Humanity has a tendancy to lust for things and because of lust they are willing to alter it for their taste , needs or ego. If a person truly loves an animal they love it for what it is, in its true natural condition.

There are arguements that If the surgery is performed correctly it will never again be able of producing venom that is a BIG " IF " to risk you life on.

There is an arguement that there is no evidance of a venomoid biting someone. That is incorrect! Tere is actually 3 very well recorded case's of it occurring.

There is an arguement they can not regenerate the venom gland. Another false statement.

I hope this will get read and enlighten people.

For the record numerous medical research institutes including The United States Department of Agriculture have done numerous studies on Reparative Regeneration using reptiles as part of their experiments and have found that it can and does occur. This includes and is not limited to reptilian and amphibians.

Many of the studies indicate a degree of both organ and tissue regeneration.

Regeneration is defined as the replacement, repair or restoration of lost or damaged structures or reconstitution of the whole body from a small fragment of it during the post-embryonic life.

There are two main types:
Reparative Regeneration: This type is limited to the repair or healing of injuries, and it takes place by localized cell proliferation and migration. This is seen both in vertebrates and invertebrates.

Restorative Regeneration: It is the replacement of lost body parts. It is rare among vertebrates but common in invertebrates.

EXAMPLES OF REGENERATION ABILITY IN DIFFERENT ANIMALS
The degree of this ability differs in the various groups of animals. Following are some examples from invertebrates:

Protozoans: If an Amoeba is cut into parts each containing a piece of the nucleus, the parts grow into complete individuals.

Sponges: Any part of the body can be cut off or injured and it will be readily repaired, e.g., Sycon.

Coelenterates: A Hydra may be cut into many bits, and each part will regenerate into a complete individual of smaller size. The posterior end will regenerate the mouth and tentacles; the anterior part regenerates the foot and adhesive disc.

In vertebrates, the regenerative power is quite restricted. In fish, the tail does not regenerate. In reptiles it does.
Regenerative power is most spectacular in the urodele amphibians. In newts and salamanders, limbs, tails, external gills, upper and lower jaws, parts of the eye (iris, retina) can regenerate.

In mammals, regenerative ability is restricted to tissue regeneration i.e., the restoration of defects and lesions in various tissues but not the restoration of lost organs.

The only exception is the liver in mammals. If a part of it is removed, the remaining portion grows by repeated division to full size, but the normal shape is not restored. Likewise, if one kidney is removed, the other enlarges to take over the function of the missing kidney. This is called compensatory hypertrophy.

There are numerous studies to this end.

Regarding venomoid surgery if the organ IS NOT fully removed it has the potential to regenerate or more accurately Restore itself to a partial use. We do have evidence of many cases of ductal regeneration in which the animal was capable of delivering venom through the duct again.

Just because something has not to some peoples views been credibly scientifically proven does not mean by and means it cannot happen. The evidence especially in the reptile and amphibian families show all to often exactly how much these animals can do to repair damage done to their bodies and or in reproduction.

If the surgery is done completely and correctly the odds remain low of any regeneration. However it is still an IF and I for one am not willing to bet my or my families life on an IF.

There are as of this date 3 confirmed envenomations from supposed venomoids snakes. 1 in Miami Florida. 1 in Liverpool and 1 in Germany. Why is there not more? Simple, Under the medical coding system a snake bite is is broken down as follows

Bite
animal NEC E906.5
other specified (except arthropod) E906.3
venomous NEC E905.9
arthropod (nonvenomous) NEC E906.4
venomous - see Sting
black widow spider E905.1
cat E906.3
centipede E905.4
cobra E905.0
copperhead snake E905.0
coral snake E905.0
dog E906.0
fer de lance E905.0
gila monster E905.0
human being
accidental E928.3
assault E968.7
insect (nonvenomous) E906.4
venomous - see Sting
krait E905.0
late effect of - see Late effect
lizard E906.2
venomous E905.0
mamba E905.0
marine animal
nonvenomous E906.3
snake E906.2
venomous E905.6
snake E905.0
millipede E906.4
venomous E905.4
moray eel E906.3
rat E906.1
rattlesnake E905.0
rodent, except rat E906.3
serpent - see Bite, snake
shark E906.3
snake (venomous) E905.0
nonvenomous E906.2
sea E905.0
spider E905.1
nonvenomous E906.4
tarantula (venomous) E905.1
venomous NEC E905.9
by specific animal - see category E905
viper E905.0
water moccasin E905.0

You will see there is no CODE FOR VENOMOID so it has to be call venomous. and lets face it if it injects venom it is hot, no matter what the person selling it may have told you.

Unless the bite recieves media attention and it is told to them it was a venomoid which by the way is not a true word then it is concidered venomous. With the growing market for these altered cornsnakes it is only a matter of time before we start hearring more and more bite accounts. Ofcourse the proponants for these altered animals will claim bad surgery is the case. Well to me the simple fact is no surgery and no risk would have prevented it. A venomoid owner would not treat a hot the same as his new pet cornsnake thus he wouldnt have had the hot to begin with.
 
Old 10-06-2004, 01:10 PM   #19
psilocybe
Quote:
Originally posted by robin s.
did i miss something here? who is dick richey (what a name )... reminds me of this band that plays around here.... the swinging richards. ok now back to the point who is kevin smith?
His name is actually Rich Richey (Dick being a short form of Richard, but also being a very fitting term for this butcher) and he is a backyard butcher. Kevin Smith (not the director!) is his protege, and together they cut up snakes to sell to the inexperienced, and impatient people that make up the venomoid purchasing community. Kevin Smith is the most visible of the two, posting classifieds for his abused victims on KS quite often. In some of the pictures he's posted, you can still see the stitches or scars in the side of the snakes face.

Someone somewhere mentioned something about Kevin possibly taking a hit from a loaded snake recently. If this is the case, I have one thing to say: Karma is a bitch.
 
Old 10-06-2004, 02:06 PM   #20
Rockford
I wonder if it would ever be legal to take a Dog's teeth out surgically? Or is already? There was a post saying if you don't have the resources and brains to keep venemous responsibly....then DON"T! Surgically removing an organ that has taken hundreds of thousands of years to develop for the benefit of an animal is butchering mother nature. If you respect animals and nature then you would leave alone what it was given to them. Kooks that take part in these "surgeries" really should think twice about what they are doing.

I posted a question for Mike that has yet to be answered.....What purpose does the "surgery" provide for you and the animals?

BThacker
 

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