The Lacey Act

Hey Seamus, hows it going? : )

While one could argue that 'readily accessable for inspection' contains some wiggle room, I seriously doubt any judge would agree that INSIDE the box constitutes 'readily available for inspection'. You must cut the tape and open the box to get to it, and then must re-seal the package before the package can continue on its way!

Considering the fact that their suggestion is to simply attach the invoice to the outside of the package, I don't believe they want folks to put them inside the package. Perhaps in a resealable envelope attached to the package, but not IN it. They shouldn't have to open the package to find information on what's in it.

Originally Posted by WingedWolf

While one could argue that 'readily accessable for inspection' contains some wiggle room, I seriously doubt any judge would agree that INSIDE the box constitutes 'readily available for inspection'.

So... are you speaking as a judge, a thousand of packages a year shipper of live animals, a recipient of thousands of packaged animals?

Oh... none of those?

Well, I must say that I am shocked to see you still using this website, although your tendency to talk out of a hole other than your mouth certainly hasn't changed.

Seagrest Farms, MidAmerica, CalZoo, Animals Etc, Marine Breeding Research and enormous other companies ship hundreds of thousands of animals every week with the general labeling on the outside of the boxes and the invoice inside. This is not the kind of thing that can slip under the radar of officials who are responsible for the interpretation or enforcement of the law.

So when the time comes for someone, take you for instance WingedWolf, to ship one of the six animals they produced to a remote buyer, labeling the package in a manner that's consistent with the practices of companies who have been doing it legally and successfully for decades is probably a good start.

Holy fired up Jones!

I don't think anyone wants to see the thread fall into a "butt talking" slap fest (or was it the ear hole you were talking about? : )

I think we have found some middle ground here, and we have at least a workable solution to a horribly convulated and murky piece of legislation that is decades old : )

Individuals are welcome to interpret the thing in any way they chose, no one in the reptile community is doing individual enforcement, and do what best works for them, and their peace of mind.

At the very least, we know there are no strict, explicit requirements, and you can meet the labeling requirement in any number of ways.

To me this is all legal-loopholey mumbo jumbo anyway, it doesn't contribute to the SAFE and secure packing, the actual packing, of non-venomous live reptiles, and that is my main concern.

I don't want to see reptiles shipped in plain cardboard boxes, re-used boxes with holes or tears, certainly not screened cricket boxes, and I don't want to see them irresponsibly shipped in extreme weather, either too hot or too cold.

We have a huge investment in the SUCCESS of harmless live reptile shipping, that is the goal for All Pro Shipping and ShipYourReptiles.

Additional package labeling is not going to jeopardize our entire reptile hobby. Irresponsible packing IS.

No more of this!

Originally Posted by robyn@Pro Exotics

Ok, so an invoice inside, and the word "wildlife" on the outside. Easy enough.

That's how I read it. Alternatively you could put "Live Harmless Reptiles" as some already do. I would imagine as far as "assessable" they mean on top of the packing material as opposed to buried at the bottom.

Also...Glad to hear that what you posted on that other forum was a typo. I had hoped as much!

Just common sense, Seamus. If they had intended folks to put the invoice inside the package, why would they suggest putting it on the outside of the package? In the end, everyone is going to do what they feel is right.
However, the last possible reason to state that it's ok to do something is 'hundreds of people are doing it and they never had a problem!"
Seriously--if in doubt, consult a lawyer. All I'm pointing out is common sense. Obviously, some folks don't agree--they'll continue to do things the way they think is right. I'll continue to do things the way I think is right--the same way many other people do. I'm not some lone voice here. <lol>
It's possible I'm wrong, too, but the way I do things will never get me in trouble, nor my customers. If the folks advocating less labeling are wrong, the same can't be said.

As for why I'm still here--I'm a supporter of this site, I think it's a reliable place to shop, and to offer my own animals for sale, and I approve, for the most part, of the BOI. I find it to be a useful tool, and I contibute when I can. What folks like you have to say is not one of the reasons I'm here, and it's absolutely, positively not any reason why I would leave. <lol>

I am genuinely concerned about the issue being discussed in this thread. I think it has been concluded to some satisfaction--at the very least, all of the information has been presented on each side. No agreement was reached, but that's ok, too. There won't BE any accord until a lawyer speaks up on the subject--possibly not even then, as people can be tremendously stubborn.

Robyn is also correct in that proper packaging is more important than labeling--for the most part, with one amendment. I have to say, I feel that labeling the package as containing a live animal is also crucially important, whatever else you might write on it, and should be considered part of proper packaging.

I've been on the receiving end of one of those improper shipments, and it taught me a lesson I'll never forget. 10 adult snakes in one box--a properly insulated box, to be sure, but just one box, with no dividers, and no cool pack at all, in the summer. Simply stacked on one another, 2 to a pillowcase, and all 4 on the bottom were baked and very dead--and judging by the odor, had been since shortly after they left the shipper's hands. Perhaps they were left on hot tarmac. The box was not labeled properly. And the explanation of the shipper (who I will not name at all because he made good) was that he thought they would be ok, because he had received snakes packed the same way in the past, and they were ok.

The more we do to ensure packages are handled gently and kept out of temperature extremes, the better. 'Extra' labeling is certainly an easy step.

I was thinking last night...

When I worked for PETsMART while in college, all of our reptile/fish shipments were received with an invoice stuck to the side in one of these pouches. The invoice wasn't easily viewable, but it was easily accessible if someone needed the information. Maybe this is what they mean?

That would, without a doubt, fulfill the requirements for easily accessible documents. I believe that's actually the purpose of such pouches--to make invoices accessible from outside of the package. Some folks also include the invoice in the UPS or Fed Ex label pouch, which should also be acceptable, as they can be opened and re-sealed easily.

Here's my contribution to this topic:

I recently received a single ball python on Tuesday of this week. It was shipped thru FedEx via Priority Overnight. Normally, these are delivered before 10:30AM. However, this package was delayed and did not arrive until about 4 hours later. During those 4 hours, I called FedEx twice to see what the hold-up was. No one knew why and since the snake finally showed up alive, I didnt bother pursuing the reason further.

Yesterday, I recieved a letter in the mail from the CA State Department of Food & Agriculture. I was shocked to finally know the reason for my snakes delay because I have not heard of this happening before to another fellow snake keeper. However, I was grateful that the snake was not held any longer or returned to the shipper. Apparently the Quarantine Officer decided to release the package for delivery, even though it was in violation of CA Fish & Game Code, Section 2272.

They ultimately, issued the vioation because: "this shipment consisted of one (1) box containing 1 -unidentified snake. There was no statement of origin and no description of the contents on the outside of the box.".

Please see a copy of this letter. Hopefully this will help us wildlife shippers stay out of trouble. For me, I will now be writing the scientific name, common name, and animal quantity on the outside of each box. I probably won't make this very large though, in an attempt to not draw any attention from a snake-fearing carrier employee. This, along with the shipping label, should satisify the authorities.

To add to my post above, this is from the state of CA. Policies and procedures likely vary from state to state.