Bill Obston- Poor Business Conduct!

I have to throw in my .02 cents since I know a few parties. I too have had to take several "lumps" this past two weeks with "deals".
One seller did the same exact thing to me; and Dan and I just discussed this. I was on line when I got a mass email about a new available dragon with a make offer. After a few instant replies back and forth. I bought it via Paypal within that 10 minutes of us messaging. Sold - done. Then whalla 3 hours later all the sudden I too was offered a refund and the buyer no longer felt the animal was in good enough health to ship???She wanted to take her to a vet. I said great, just hold the money, keep me posted, and by all means, don't ship her until you feel she is ready. Guess what. She refunded me with promises of "keeping me posted" that same night. BS. I saw pics of the dragon today on another forum. Seems she resold it to a higher bidder after I purchased it.It has been 2 weeks and I never heard another word. Worse yet Paypal got a chunk of that money. A waste of my time.
Then I replied to another "best offer" ad of Fauna. A few emails back and forth and I find out that not only they'll they no longer take the 8 day old "best offer" of $20.00 less. Fine. I figured they were within the right to not to, but I was informed they wouldn't take the posted price either. All of the sudden in 2 weeks the animals went from being 5 months and not sexable to what they said are now almost sexable and breedable and worth 10X as much.What the? But still the ad sits there same as it was when I replied. So my polite suggestion to update or delete it was ignored.
Then there was the fairly large breeder who begged for a not for sale animal that was pictured as the breeder of a hatchling. If I had a dollar for all those emails and Paypal promises and drama that followed I wouldn't have to sell a thing this week. I could afford to sit on my rump.
Lastly was the Quinn kid whom I bid unknowingly on 11 Leos for two weeks to find out that after I won he had already sold them elsewhere and was just going to send me totally different kinds of less of and Leos. All without even saying "I'm sorry".He didn't understand my frustration either.
I, like Dan, have had enough of all of these bad business practices. I finally paid my $10.00 and made one post. It takes that last one to set someone over the edge. As in Dans case, this was just the last straw. It is happening all to often. So many go on without anyone knowing that these folks are just wrong! I agree not all are worth "bad guy" threads, but I feel they are worth "Bad business practices" threads.
I now know 4 people in these 2 weeks that I could steer people clear of, but 3 will go unknown. Dan too knows more than a few. We should stop taking all these lumps and make it all public to a degree.Just because he got his money back doesn't make it OK. Is our time worth nothing? It is so disappointing to be all excited about a new baby coming home, all to get slapped in the face. What if you spent time and $ setting up their new home as I did in one case?
My last comment is about shipping. I would prefer that everyone come get their animals. As I wish I could drive down the block and get whatever I want. But most of us can't. If we choose to sell on line and ship, then prepare for it and do it. Don't just sit on the fence about it.
I live in the furthest north west than almost anyone on here. Spokane, WA. It is snowing right now.30 degrees. Let's see .....we got 4 dragons from TBK last Tuesday. We got 1 dragons from TKO yesterday.I got 2 chameleons from Jim/ Chameleon Company wendsday. I got 2 Leos from experiment 13 last Monday. 2 Leos from Carolina Herps 2 weeks ago wendsday. One Leo from Hot Gecko 3 weeks ago Tuesday.11 Leos from Rapture Reptiles this last Friday.1 dragon from Scott McGraw/Awesome Dragons on Tuesday. 4 dragons and 2 crested geckos from Sandfire Dragons and Dragons Den TODAY! Shall I go on?
I shipped out 32 dragons last week and 16 thus far this week. Today I shipped Dan a Chameleon, and he in turn shipped me some Crested Geckos that will be here tommorrow. I have shipped and received all winter every winter. ALL ARRIVE SAFE, usually unstressed, warm. If the seller knows what they are doing it all goes smoothly! We have never had or sent a DOA! To suggest it isn't safe to ship in the cold is just wrong. I guess then all the above listed people are just "lucky" the past 3 weeks.
The well being of the animals is the most important thing.But if both parties involved know what they are doing and take all the proper messures it really is no different than a car ride home from a pet store. In fact that ride is probably colder!
And I am with Dan on this one. A deal is a deal. Once I pay I consider an animal mine!

Originally Posted by spokanelizardlady

A deal is a deal. Once I pay I consider an animal mine!

I do like to play the devil's advocate...which can sometimes be a bad habit.

And I do feel for Dan's disappointment and frustration...

However, it has not been established that Dan paid for that animal first...which means it may not have been his...and that is the problem with assumption.

Dan emailed this guy in the middle of the night...it appears that Dan was responded to first thing in the morning...but Dan didn't send payment for several hours...and did so without contacting the seller. His money was immediately refunded that evening...

There is a lot of missing information...however...it is as large a possibility that it was sold out from under Dan as it is that the animal was sold before Dan even sent the funds...

This, in my opinion, would mean this is undeserving of a "BAD GUY " thread unless direct clarification occurs...and it may NEVER occur after he "calmly" lambasted the seller for his business practices...which may or may NOT be in question.

Do you understand?
By making accusations against the seller after this occurance (irregardless of how tactful and well spoken it was) both in direct email and especially by bringing it to the BOI...you may have burned the bridge that would allow you to justify your position...

Now you have given him every opportunity to leave you hanging in the wind by your own making...

Bill is the only person who knows to a certainty how and when everything happened. This argument is moot...there are no definite facts to support your claims without Bill coming here, posting, and being thought to be truthful...which brings us to an interesting place. With possible contrary opinions...and no supporting documents...this becomes a "he said/she said" argument...Case dismissed on lack of evidence.

I understand completely.I have talked to Dan about this at length. I think as he does. IF someone had paid before he did I would have thought he would say 'Sorry, someone paid before you" or something to that affect. Instead he said "sorry, I found someone to buy that I don't have to ship to". I think it was the latter. But like you said we may never know.
If it was the latter I still feel it is worth of a "Bad Business Practice" not a "Bad Guy". Although the line between the two seems to be getting smaller lately.
I think people need to be aware of the ones they might never get the animals from, not just the ones who try to steal the money. Like I told Dan I was so discouraged lately I stopped shopping. That is damaging to the trade in general. Only a little, but if we all get discouraged often, eventually all the customers get scared away.What good does that do any of us? Dan and I almost didn't do a "deal".I inquired about a few animals and when he replied about their availability I email him back and said "thanks for the reply but I am having a bad week at buying. I don't think it;s in my cards". Had he not made the effort, I wouldn't be getting those cresties today. All because of other peoples "bad business practices".
Ok I am off the soap box now and back into what I should be doing instead.

Is Bill aware of this thread?

I can definitely see your point...and with the abuse of customers in this industry I think there are a LOT of frustrated people.

I am also glad to know Dan has excellent customer service...when I am need of some more cresties...I will not hesitate to check him out...

I guess I just feel that this particualr circumstance doesn't present itself as a situation meriting taking a stand against bad business practices by making Bill a whipping boy for the customer disastifaction in the industry. Just too many facts left to the imagination...
Yes the response could have been worded differently...but reading into the way it WAS worded does not make the assumptions fact.

There are enough people out there who have cold hard evidence against them doing much MUCH worse things than refunding someone their money the day they received it. I understand that, from Dan's personal point of view, he is very upset...and I would be too...but from a business point of view...his money was refunded immediately...regardless of the reason why...and for his own future reference...he may choose not to do business with Bill again...but I still feel it is going WAY overboard to publically denegrade Bill's business ethics and morality because he feels slighted in the deal.

When did this happen, BTW...I don't believe a date was ever given.

Just to throw something out there as Ms. Childs was talking about "knowing" how to ship, and I am aware that there is a shipping forum on fauna, I think that it would benefit alot of newbies if someone who can vouch for a good 95% live arrival rate (at least) could post how to tell when or when not to use a heat pack, etc... like what if the temp is 75 during the day and 45 at night? Just curious, as I have shipped out a few animals and they arrived safe, but I have not done any winter shipping yet, AND did receive a pair of boas whose inside box was 40 degrees...(they are fine and safe now, thank god) I think this would benefit everyone.....sorry to get off of the subject...and I think the seller would have been better to just say payment came in before Dan sent his paypal, that would have saved alot of headache....and I too have had cases were someone says "Im sending the money, blah blah blah" and never see it. I had one guy do this to me TWICE last summer (mind you no ad I post will come off UNTIL I have money in my hand)....the first time he said he had sent it and he asked why I hadnt shipped the chondro yet, and why the ad was still running! I politely told him I hadnt seen anything in the mailbox, that I would have sent a payment confirmation email if I had asking whrn he would have wanted the snake shipped. So he swore that he sent it again, and I never saw anything. After that the kid(I assume) fell off the face of the earth. Point is, unless you buy in person, there are no guarantees. The other person may have shown up on the sellers doorstep before the paypal went through. The seller should have reworded his statement as to why the refund was issued, its not reality that counts, its how the comment was perceived.

Angela.... very easy.... never go by the daytime temps, because when you ship a package, it's USUALLY picked up later in the afternoon, and it USUALLY arrives at it's destination by 10:30 in the morning.... If the NIGHTTIME temps are going to be BELOW 50 degrees, you should use at least ONE 40-hour heatpack.... If the NIGHTTIME temps are below 40, you should use TWO 40-hour heatpacks....

Neil

I notified the seller Bill of this thread by the way to see if he might care to respond.
I agree with Neal on packs, and bt the way, we have found that the 60 hour heats are equivalent to 2 packs and a tiny bit more affordable.
Now that we are way off subject. I would make a post but certainly there are people far more experienced than me that would be better at it...CHAMCO???? You ship from hot to cold probably at least 20 times a day, care to contribute to that thread?

Originally Posted by Junkyard

Is Bill aware of this thread?

I notified him within a short period of time after this thread was started. He has yet to confirm he received the message and has not logged on to fauna since the day before this thread was started.

northlight
Registered User
Last Activity: 03-06-2006 08:00 AM

Let's be realistic here. I know it's easy to get wrapped up in the online version of the herp hobby. We forget that there's the online world and then the real life world. In the online world, you EXPECT your seller to respond to your e-mails quickly even though you yourself may not have time to use the computer because of work, school, going out with friends, etc. In the online world, you EXPECT your seller to ship the next day after you send the money, but you yourself may not have the time to adjust your schedule on short notice so you can spend the hour or two packing up an order and dropping it off at the shipping center. In the online world, you can claim ownership of animals you Paypal money for, but in the real world, people do have facilities and stores and shows where they sell the same animals that are listed as available on their site. In-person sales take precedence because we all prefer to do them. When has that ever changed in the hobby?

Originally Posted by thegeckohut

Bill replied at 9:20 AM PST. (while I was out)

You weren't home to check your e-mail when Bill replied, so let's not assume that Bill was sitting around checking his e-mail as soon as you Paypaled the money. Even if you did technically pay before the other buyer, maybe Bill had a customer arrive at his facility before he got around to checking his e-mail again.

What sounds more likely is that he checked his e-mail in the morning, maybe checked it again during lunch time, then had a visitor arrive with cash in hand. He probably gave the visitor a tour and chatted with him for a couple of hours. Obviously, he's not going to check his e-mail while he's showing the visitor around and shotting the breeze. But he does after the visitor leaves, which is when he sees the notification from Paypal. That he refunded the money a mere 2.5 hours after you Paypaled makes me think he didn't realize you had paid already.

So if you were in Bill's shoes, what would be the more reasonable thing to do? Refund the Paypal payment with a click of a button, or call the customer to have him bring the animal back for a refund? What if that customer lived two hours away?

Maybe it would seem like Bill should have held the animals for you. But in your first e-mail prior to payment, you still sound uncertain about purchasing. You even sound reluctant to pay, since rather than asking him to send you a total price, you assert that you want to do a trade.

Hi,
I would like to purchase this beautiful pair of cresteds your posted on fauna yesterday. Please let me know if they are still available. Do you accept PayPal? I know you mentioned in your ad that you are trying to make room, but if you happen to see anything on my site that catches your eye, I would be more than happy to work a good trade. Check it out at www.thegeckohut.com I look forward to hearing from you soon.

If you were that serious about buying, a differently worded e-mail or better yet, a phone call, would have saved you a lot of trouble. And with that said, I don't think this thread warrants a bad guy post. Nobody got ripped off here. As for being upset that you weren't able to get the animals you wanted... It was just some crested geckos. Like those will ever be in short supply.