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Old 10-18-2012, 09:33 AM   #141
IMAJACOBIAN
Adder,

I have refrained from posting here because it is so controversial, but here it goes.

1) So, do you think they would prefer a major invasive surgury to be able to be handled, or rather have minimum handling via a hook. That surgury is not minor by any means. I work with a few rattlers and copperheads and will use a hook and maybe a hand on their tail depening on species, the size of the animal and their attitude. Usually they adjust to some handling, but not always. I wouldn't say they enjoy it, but they handle well. I'm sure I would prefer to be picked up with a hook than to have my head sliced and part of me removed if I were given a choice.

2) No matter how tame they are, void or not, I would never ever freehandle a hot. We force these animals into captivity and it is our duty to give them the best possible care, not selective surguries that cause pain and suffering. Even if that suffering is temporary, they should not be put through it.

3)I have read most of this thread, but not all of it. Has outgrowing the implants been addressed when doing surgury on a young growing snake. Does it involve multiple surguries through out it's life to correct this or is a shrunken or deformed head the way it goes.

4) lets make a comparison. Would anybody here remove the claws and teeth from a bengal tiger so it could be a "pet". Not I... I know that comparison is a stretch, but not too far. Like other animals, snakes are potentially dangerous wether it is a hot or a larger species of constrictor. We choose to work with potentially dangerous animals. If the risk is not worth it DO NOT MUTILATE YOUR POOR ANIMALS and work with something harmless.

5) Since you believe it's better for the animal to be voided for "proper" free-handling, can you post some pics up of the surgury being performed. If it doesn't make the animal suffer, then pics of this "minor" surgury can be provided to show they don't suffer from it.

I am not completly closed minded. If you can prove they don't suffer from the surgury, I may be swayed. I dont think it will happen though.

Jacob
 
Old 10-19-2012, 01:03 AM   #142
skirtinthedirt
As a veterinary professional, I am intrigued by this thread.

I have heard this surgery referred to by Adder (Australian super snake guy Raymond Hoser apparently) as "simple," "minor," and also that a veterinarian who may accidentally leave some gland tissue still in the snake as an "idiot."

So, considering I work with board certified veterinary surgeons every day I'm at work and have administered and monitored anesthesia for reptiles on many occasions, I wanted to know more about this super snake surgeon from Australia who apparently can extricate an entire part of a reptile body that isn't meant to be extricated every time, flawlessly, without fail, with no anesthesia deaths or major stress/pain inflicted on the patients. So I go to the website.

Funny story, but Raymond Hoser is not a veterinarian. He most certainly is not a surgeon.

I don't really care to weigh in on the right vs wrong on convenience surgeries on animals. I'm disgusted there even has to be a debate. But again, as someone who has been there, part of herp surgeries, here are some facts:

Surgery on a reptile is NEVER "simple." If you know anything about the unique needs of these animals in a hospital setting I do not need to explain. If you do not, you should learn.

Surgery on ANY animal, for any reason, is never treated as "simple" by a good surgery team. Surgery and anesthesia carry risks. We train hard to minimize and react to those risks. It is not a benign process.

When you cut into tissue, it all bleeds. It all gets inflamed. Specific tissues start to look a lot alike once you go mucking around in there. I don't have experience with this specific procedure, but if world renowned oncologists can only give you a 95% chance that they got ALL yout tumor out, well, then at best you have a 5% chance of being killed by a snake with it's glands surgically removed.

Even if you DID have to be a moron to botch a gland removal surgery (which is not even remotely the case), the sad fact is that just because you are a doctor does not mean you are exempt from being a moron. Or an asshole, or a show boater, or whatever else might cause you to get way in over your head and ruin a bunch of people's lives. Every day, there are both animal and human surgeons doing stupid things to their patients that they have no business even attempting. Do we really need to add making venomous snakes non-venomous to the ways we can screw up? I think not.

The first rule of medicine is: "First, do no harm." That means that you are never,ever supposed to practice medicine in a manor where the potential harm to your patient outweighs the potential benefits. Remember: TO THE PATIENT, not the patient's keeper. Sadly, in many respects veterinary medicine has gotten away from that, but that doesn't mean it's supposed to happen.

I don't usually like to rant, but I hate hate hate it when people who do not have experience with something (i.e., surgery on a venomous snake), go cavalierly discussing how easy it is, and how you'd have to be a moron to not get it right. I'm not going to comment on how easy/difficult/stupid/not it is to work with hots, because I don't work with hots. So let's not discuss how easy/difficult this type of operation is unless you've actually performed it or been in the room, as part of the team, assisting. I can't even comment, I can only speculate, based on experience. My opinion is that, right or wrong, removing the venom glands from a snake is no little deal.
 
Old 10-19-2012, 07:43 PM   #143
adder
To the above posters (2) I could place my answers to your (sometimes ill-informed) comments withi yours which would be best, but I am busy so as a second best refer you to the venomoid FAQ website here:
where all is answered.
The second poster is disingenius when he claims venomoid surgery is not simple. Fact is, to an experienced practitioner it is! Especially as compared to other potential surgeries.
Of course the invasive procedure of probing a snake to determine a snake's sex is simpler, but to allege venomoid surgery is particulary hard is patently false.

http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm

All the best
 
Old 10-19-2012, 10:00 PM   #144
skirtinthedirt
Adder, I have been to your website, several times now, and read your 2004 paper on the procedure. I also read O'Shea's paper in the next edition of Herptile, as he presents the opposite view. Before I go into what I think, I have some questions for you.

In order to perform surgery on animals in Australia legally, you must be a licensed veterinarian. The definition from Merriam-Webster as to what constitutes "surgery" is here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/surgery

The link to Australia's regulations for becoming a practicing veterinarian are located here: http://www.avbc.asn.au/skills.htm

Question 1: Are you a licensed veterinarian and/or have you completed the steps necessary to be recognized as one?

Question 2: In certain cases it is my understanding that the board may "certify" an individual to perform certain procedures usually only allowed by veterinarians provided you pass examination, demonstrate a need to perform the procedure as opposed to a veterinarian (i.e., sedating wildlife for examination/tagging). Do you have any documentation showing you are certified to perform surgery on your animals, and thus not engaging in an apparent illegal act?

Question 3: Can you provide a single verifiable article, paper, endorsement, or the like in favor of this procedure and of you yourself performing this procedure by a veterinarian?

Question 4: Are you aware that boiling instruments for 10 minutes and then letting them sit in open air to cool makes them very clean, but not in fact, sterile? In fact boiling of instruments is to ONLY be used in a life threatening emergency and it is recommended that instruments be boiled for 20-30 minutes at minimum? Why not just buy an autoclave man?

Question 5: what are you using to sedate/anesthetize these patients? I see a lot of references to effective restraint so the snakes are mobilized, but not so much sedation. I know from your paper that the board you tape them to is stored in the refrigerator. Also, you squirt ice water into their mouths to help with bleeding. Does that indicate that you use only hypothermia as a means of sedation and inflammation control? If so, are you aware that cold sedation for reptiles has "been shown to cause serious metabolic consequences, and, in the case of hypothermia, may be considered inhumane?" (that came right out of Mader, who I know you like to reference).

I guess you're right. By referencing your own paper, I was able to ascertain that you use makeshift surgical equipment, do not sterilize properly, do not use any kind of chemical sedation, either for restraint or pain control, would rather squirt freezing water into an endotherm's mouth than use something as simple as a sterile handheld cautery, and don't provide any sort of pain control before, during, or after the procedure. Further, you didn't bother to become a veterinarian before you started performing surgery, which again, is required by law. I guess cutting all those corners does simplify things considerably.

Also, the "he" you refer to as being "disingenius" (which is not actually a word, so I'm assuming you meant "disingenuous") is a "she." Nice of you to even bother to check my name (or for that matter, that my handle references wearing a skirt."

Funny, but the definition of "disingenuous", which is the big word I think you were trying to say, means "lacking in candor," which I am not, and I quote: "giving a false appearance of simple," which is I feel is incredibly ironic given the circumstances.

That was all the smarty-pants stuff. The bottom line, based on your own words that I read in your own literature, is that you strap down and mutilate animals for your own convenience, without a veterinary license to do so, using sub-par methods. I guess my last question is: Have you ever thought about why you are the "only" person who does this?
 
Old 10-20-2012, 04:41 AM   #145
Snakehandler
Mr. Hoser.....get your facts straight. My employee was not bitten during an event, he was actually bitten by a wild snake, there was NO venom present in the wound, however our company policy is to ensure his safety and I insisted he stay in hospital for 12 hours. This was a WILD snake....are you going to try to venomoid the wild ones too? This snake was not tonged, it was infact tailed and hooked. The event was major flooding where we had been contracted to remove snakes, of which we removed over 150 over 13 days, including Pseudonaja textilis which were under a great deal of stress due to the flood event....only leaving once the client had been satisfied that there was no further serious risk.

Secondly, Mr Watherow, was NEVER one of my employees, he owned the business and sold out.....what happened to him was NOT during my ownership and was actually prior to him starting the business.....

Also, Section 32 of the OHS Act 2004 actually states the following:
Duty not to recklessly endanger persons at workplaces

32. Duty not to recklessly endanger persons at workplaces

A person who, without lawful excuse, recklessly engages in conduct that places
or may place another person who is at a workplace in danger of serious injury
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to-

Now with this in mind, I have permits to display venomous snakes, my staff are all trained and experienced, our wildlife permits do not allow members of the public to come in contact with venomous snakes unless under written authority (which I have), however we do not permit this at public events, only snake handling courses.

If you want to read it properly, a person placing unrestrained crocodiles on peoples heads, without ensuring they cannot bite by appropriate restraints, is actually in breach of Section 32 of the act.

Also the practice of venomoiding is an illegal procedure now in Australia (I am not claiming you have broken any laws here as this was altered after you completed your procedures), as such no person can have any of these animals created unless they are willing to face prosecution.......and before anyone claims anything, this changed a long time ago, I have never and will never request such animals as I do not see the need for it.

I am tired of your lies and deceit, you will now go on to attack me and my business, make false claims etc....I am not here to attack you, do not wish to converse with you, simply state the truth.....NO person doing displays with the business Snakehandler since I took over has ever been bitten by venomous snakes, NO staff member has EVER been envenomated since I took over the business, NO member of the public has been injured by ANY of my animals since I took over the business.....what happened prior to me purchasing the business is totally out of my control, unknown to me and of no consequence to my operations.
 
Old 10-20-2012, 08:33 AM   #146
skirtinthedirt
Also the practice of venomoiding is an illegal procedure now in Australia (I am not claiming you have broken any laws here as this was altered after you completed your procedures), as such no person can have any of these animals created unless they are willing to face prosecution.......and before anyone claims anything, this changed a long time ago, I have never and will never request such animals as I do not see the need for it.

This is what I tried to figure out last night and could not. It literally kept me awake thinking about it. I was wondering why all of the literature I could find was so outdated. Thanks for clearing that up. Now I don't feel a need to spend any more time on this issue.
 
Old 10-20-2012, 11:46 AM   #147
IMAJACOBIAN
Adder,

Why avoid the questions. Simply post some pics of the operation showing it is simple and answer a few questions. If it is in fact so minor, then people would be able to be swayed to agree with you. Then you compare it to probing a snake for sex determination. They are not comparable at all. Probing is safe if it is done by someone trained to do so. It is NOT surgery. No tissue is cut to probe a snake, wheras to void, the head is basically cut open and then peices removed. Have you ever had surgery. I some of my teeth pulled (minor) and they put me out comepletly. Afterward it still hurt for a few days with follow up pain medication. All they did was pull teeth and not cut my head open. Maybe you should take a clue if it is illegal to void a hot there. Obviously others are following in an opposite direction then you with the facts in front of them.

This still remains an ELECTIVE SURGERY and not required for the betterment of the animal. It is unneccesary period...

P.S I'm not trying to attack you for a different opinion. Everyone has a right to there own opinion.

Jacob
 
Old 10-23-2012, 07:20 AM   #148
adder
Skinthedirt (Emily Paine).
You have not displayed any knowledge of Australian law or venomoid surgery. You are effectively unknown in herpetology.
Operations performed by myself were done legally. You may not agree with the law, but so be it. To argue with you would be like dealing with a Christian Fundamentalist!
Description of our venomoid operations as subpar is not supported by the evidence, which is a perfect record of results and happy healthy snakes.
Mark O’Shea has no credibility whatsoever, especially noting his own appalling snakebite and mishandling history so to claim anything written by him is of value does not merit a response. His claim venomoids regenerate venom is patently false. He has no expertise on the subject at all.
Finally, can you please advise me as to what expertise you have in performing venomoid surgery including how many operations you have conducted and the results of all.
To Imajacobian, you wrote:
“Why avoid the questions. Simply post some pics of the operation showing it is simple and answer a few questions.”
My response is I published a big paper in 2004 and have a devenomized venomoid snake FAQ site as well. Both images are shown and all sensible questions are answered as well. As it appears you have not seen these the link is provided here:
http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm
Now to Snakehandler.
A few facts you have omitted or lied about!
1 – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you have sought to send people to our educational shows for the purposes of stealing and committing other crimes. That is not ethical business practice on your part. You have also confirmed the same on several occasions by your own statements.
2 – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you are corruptly protected from prosecution for criminal offences by your friend Glenn Sharp of the DSE, corroborated by statements from another DSE employee.
3 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that Mr Watharow of Snakehandler, had several vials of Tiger Snake anti-venom from a bite sustained when in charge of the business Snakehandler. You have reported the same yourself on other chat forums, so to try to deny this fact now is scandalous.
4 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you had a large dangerous Mulga Snake escape from your facility in a suburban area that was not recaptured and remains at large. That constitutes a serious criminal offence.
5 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you have actively stalked and committed criminal offences against our company.
6 - We have statements including from a former employee of yours that your snakes have repeatedly bitten members of the public at displays, which contradicts your claims above.
7 – You have no legal protocol to deal with the event of a venomous snake bite in one of your displays. Your risk management protocol only involves administering first aid and hospitalization but not removal of the venomous bite risk (either the snakes themselves or the venom glands), the latter being our proven effective means of dealing with the problem of venomous snake displays in public and the previously inherent (and now illegal) risks, noting that unlike your relatively new company, our established business has never had owner or staff taken to hospital for snakebites in any circumstances, even though our expertise and handling is of far greater extent.
8 – You have created and/or posted on hate facebook pages and admitted in court recently that you had lied about myself to a global public audience for the purposes of attacking our established education business.
9 – We do not tape up mouths of non-venomous reptiles, be they crocodiles or snakes, when it is not required and there is no credible safety risk (even in event of bite), beyond what would be described as superficial wounds and as covered by the terms of our business and bookings. There is no breach of any law in not doing so. You are lying to claim otherwise! Other demonstrators display same or similar reptiles in similar ways. You are free to market your business as not allowing the public to hold reptiles, as in hands-off displays, as you have done recently on other forums, but we shall continue to do hands-on reptile shows that let people handle the animals for as long as it remains legal.
10 – Your claim your staff are trained and experienced is a lie. You yourself have been licenced to handle snakes in any form less than ten years and so lack experience in the relevant field!
11 – You telephoned me seeking venomoid snakes in 2005. I declined your request. You decided to wage war against us from then on. We would rather you go back to where you came from!
12 – I do not attack your business in any way.
We do rebut false claims you repeatedly make against us and when appropriate point out the safety issues relating to yours and other displays.
If and when people seek to compare businesses, be it yours or any others, I quite properly point out that our business that has run longer than yours and all others in our market and we have a perfect safety record and your business and many others do not, noting I have been in the reptile education business longer than all other mobile displayers trading in our market. Many of our clients are concerned about the safety of their children and others and we make sure they are aware of where risks lie and how we have taken the issue seriously by devenomizing our snakes to both remove risk of serious venomous bite and to comply with the 2004 O H and S Act.
13 - You have been the source of many false claims against us, including on your various “Hate sites” and we have had some deleted as a result. We have not engaged in tit-for-tat false claims against your enterprise, even though the urge to rebut your incessant false claims remains.
14 – In terms of venomous snake displays in Victoria, Phil Fisher of Worksafe issued a ruling in 2006 that it is illegal to display venomous snakes not made venomoid. It is a sensible ruling and one I agree with. That you have not been prosecuted for breaching the Worksafe and other acts, including the Wildlife act, is scandalous and a matter of deep concern among a large number of people within the reptile fraternity, including among your ex-employees. As one concerned about animal welfare I am not happy that you continue to engage in extreme acts of animal cruelty without risk of prosecution, including the use and advocacy of brutal metal tongs to handle venomous snake species. My public opposition to metal tongs to attack snakes pre-dates your lurching into the reptile business by two years and is common among experienced snake handlers. In your case the opposition is more vehement in that you also advocate the use of tongs in public forums and go further and engage in snake handler courses where you teach novices to use these barbaric devices, the result being a greater frequency of fatal and near fatal snake bites and snakes injured at time of capture.
15 – You state your employee Paul Fisher was not envenomated by a dangerous Brown Snake when bitten. You have not stated the obvious which is you could only ascertain this by having the man hospitalized and tested using equipment you did not possess, and that it is standard for anyone to be rushed to hospital in the event of a bite from this highly venomous species. To do otherwise would be reckless in the extreme. Fact is Fisher’s handling was at fault and as employer you are at fault for not ensuring your handlers can competently handle the said snakes. To allege the snakes were unduly stressed at the time as a reason for the bite is patently ridiculous.
16 – You wrote: “what happened prior to me purchasing the business is totally out of my control, unknown to me and of no consequence to my operations.” Which contradicts your detailed knowledge of these events posted by yourself on other forums.

17 (a) – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you unlawfully collected fauna in Queensland and illegally imported it to Victoria and have not been prosecuted for this offence and others.

17 (b) – I have never lied about yourself in any way. Not only have you lied about myself and my business many times, but you have also admitted to doing so in court on two separate occasions!

18 – Now I suggest you and your lackeys stop stalking, harassing and posting false and defamatory statements against myself and allow us to deal with our core business of wildlife research, education and conservation including through the only guaranteed safe venomous snake shows in Australia.

19 – Finally, and not for the first time, you are again requested to cease and desist from illegally using our registered trademarks in any way to bootleg our business and clients or engage in any other forms of misleading and deceptive conduct, including by getting others to do this for you or as a means to attack or undermine our lawful education business. This includes your reliance on other trademark bootleggers to divert our clients to your enterprise via unlawful misleading and deceptive conduct.

Thank You!

Snakeman
 
Old 10-23-2012, 12:22 PM   #149
hadenglock
Quote:
Originally Posted by adder View Post
Haden, sounds like a troll question.
Anyone who puts the welfare of their snakes first free handles instead of using metal sticks to attack snakes.
It would be patently stupid not to free handle venomoids.
All potential questions about venomoids and ours in particular are answered at the venomoid snake FAQ here
http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm
and note that we have gravid ones here at the moment.
not trying to be a troll just want to get a straight answer, and you didnt answer my question, do you or do you NOT handle venemous or venemoids during one of your events in front of children and adults? a simple yes or no will suffix.
 
Old 10-23-2012, 12:33 PM   #150
IMAJACOBIAN
Hadenglock,

I don't think you're being a troll at all. It was a simple questions and Adder hasn't answered my questions either. All I wanted was a couple pics showing that it is a "minor surgery. I don't think that is a difficult request. Show hard proof that it is a minor surgery and answer some simple questions that aren't answered already. Instead we get go to my FAQ's.
 

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