Hognose bite!

Keep in mind these are feeding bites. Defensive or aggressive bites from hognoses are very rare. I have never seen one do it. Defensive strikes are performed with closed mouths.
Most of these bites though are from a hungry hog thinking he has a meal. The point being, getting them used to being held won't necessarily prevent one of these bites, although it will definately help.
Many snakes, including alot of hogs have such a good feeding response that they're prone to give an exploratory bite to anything warm that comes near their mouth.
I still do not regard hogs as being dangerous, but care needs to be taken while handling them, not to let them decide to give you a test bite. If they do, try not to let them hang on.
I don't believe everyone will suffer this sort of reaction either. I have been chewed on by hogs a few times, but normally by smaleer specimens who may not have been large enough to get the rear teeth to my skin.
They're great little snakes, and very easy to handle etc, but you just have to excercise a little more caution than you would with a kingsnake.

Well... the swelling has just started to go down.... still VERY tender. It's tender all over ... not just in the spot where I got bit. Anyway, my hog has always been aggressive since I got him a couple of months ago. I got him from someone that wasn't taking care of him and never handled him. He is an adult hog and is not used to be handled. I have other hogs that I have had since babies and I handle them all the time and they are very friendly. After all this.. I still love them to death! I know that it wasn't his fault... I will just have to be a bit more aware of his "nose nudging" when handling him. If he is nudging something (even in his tank) and it doesn't move... he gets very upset and "hoods" up and hisses. Yes, he has issues... LoL


Thanks for all the info!!

Danielle

Glad to hear the swelling has gone down. If it looked anything like some of those pictures it must have been aweful.
I will take care in feeding mine. I just got him and on his first feeding I had to bump the pinkie on his nose, he took it very nicely (I wont do that once he is bigger).
These hogs are just so darn cute!!!
I will take all the advice given.
Good luck with your hog, he seems to have an agenda of his own!

Aren't they just adorable??!! Good luck with your little hoggy... and post pics when you can!
Yes, my hand and arm looked just like those pics... it wasn't enjoyable by no means.. LoL

Danielle

Hello all,
I have been bitten many times by many venomous species.
rear fanged snakes are underated as far as I am concerned.
The venom docs have found toxic properties in many common
colubrids.
The species of note is the radiated rat snake it has in very snall amounts the same toxins as a naja kaouthia but its not a threat.
the hognose that would be the worst is the largest found
in madagasgar I had one that got pretty big he would trash a mouse in a bout a min gone.
Also a big false water cobra has venom comparable to a rattle snake but again in small quanities.
the worst are the twig snake and the boomslang which is a very deadly snake.
have fun
bud

Bud...

American Hognoses aren't venomous, they merely have toxins present in the saliva that can cause odd reactions in allergic individuals. In order to be venomous, even rear fanged, there has to be a specific delivery system present for the injection of the toxins. The duvernoy's glands in Heterodons aren't connected to the rear "fangs" it's merely a toxin present in the saliva which can enter the bloodstream through open wounds. It's a minor distinction, but an important one.

And madagascan "Hognoses" aren't particularly closely related to other "Hognoses", not even close really. They shouldn't be included in any discussion about the toxin potential of Heterodon sp.

Yes Seamus,
Hogs are not classified "venomous"
But the pics clearly show a good case of envenomation.
Envenomation= being envenomated with venom
Toxic saliva = some protein toxic to living cells in the saliva.
All venom is modified saliva and is produced and excreted.

So if I use your template,
In order for a gila monster to be venomous it would need hollow fangs and a vestibule type gland with a venom duct?
You know they introduce the venom into the open wound like the hog.
Its a minor distinction but a important one.
I will still consider gilas venomous Seamus.

And to the allergic reaction comment I hate to tell you a allergic reaction would not manifest like the two bite cases did.
Simple allergy meds would have reversed it.
Yes strange it is ?
Sorry about the leoheterodon bit but they will swell you up exactly as the little heterodon just worse and its no allergic reaction in either case.
good
day all
:alien:

But the pics clearly show a good case of envenomation

No... the pics clearly show a good case of a toxin entering the bloodstream.

All venom is modified saliva and is produced and excreted

If you limit the discussion to venom in reptiles, yes... sorta. However, this does not mean that all saliva containing toxins is a venom, nor does it mean that the needed delivery mechanism is in place to qualify as venomous. It should be of note that, while venom glands are very similra to salivary glands in composition and function, the two are not 100% identical, there is a great deal of evolution between the two. There is a breakpoint between venomous and merely producing toxins.

In order for a gila monster to be venomous it would need hollow fangs and a vestibule type gland with a venom duct?

No, it would need to have s specific method for delivering the venom into the bloodstream of prey (or predators, as a defense), which a gila does... Pressure on the teeth of the lower jaw causes venom to be released in such a manner as to flow along the grooves, into the wound made by the teeth. The north american hognose have no such mechanism, not even one as primitive as the gilas must be said to be. The "fangs" are completely unrelated to the toxins which the animals produce, the ducts don't open anywhere near them, they are not hollow or grooved and their function is entirely independant of toxin delivery.

You know they introduce the venom into the open wound like the hog.

No they don't, see above.

Sorry about the leoheterodon bit but they will swell you up exactly as the little heterodon just worse

They actually ARE rear fanged venomous, heterodon are not. The animals are not particularly related, despite having a similar common name. Catfish are not felines, Leioheterodon are not Heterodon and their inclusion is inappropriate and misleading. Or... maybe you just didn't know until it was pointed out.

Here is a paper a friend of mine wrote.
He is a venom expert PHD.
The VENOM DOC you might know him
The toxin you speak of is a venom.
and there is ample evidence read it for your self and update
your powerfull memory banks with this new paper.
I knew I was right so here is the link.

http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/20...oidea_RCMS.pdf

I wait for your reply and possible retraction.

I'm not sure what that was supposed to prove exactly Bud... except maybe that you were unable to grasp the point of that paper.

Let's look at a few things here, real slow and simple, so you can understand.

1) A venom is defined as a toxin which is injected. In order for this to happen, there must be a specific injection method and associated biological adaptations towards that function.

2) Heterodon do not have the ability to inject the toxins they produce.

3) Dr Fry's study was an anaysis of toxins present in colubrid saliva- noting the similarities to known venoms. The point of this study was to further his hypothesis that colubrid evolution caused the loss of venom production capabilities, rather than the traditionally accepted and fairly well documented theory that it was going in the other direction. His theories are interesting, possibly valid but not particularly germaine to the topic at hand. He is also not infalliable, although certainly must be respected for his considerable experience.

4) If you read the study (Did you actually read it Bud? Somehow I doubt it) you'll find the section detailing how the toxins were collected to be of specific importance. Saliva was collected from many of the colubrids, not venom. The use of the term venom throughout other sections of the paper to denote toxins produced by snakes are all very specific in their application, identifying known compounds found in truely venomous species or comparing the toxins produced.

5) Funny thing was, I didn't find a single part of that paper which stated that hognoses had a specific method for toxin injection, which is what you would need to show in order to prove your point (No, not the one on top of your thick little bullet head, the one where you try to maintain that heterodon are venomous).

I noticed that you dropped the issue of Leioheterodon being relevant to a discussion about Heterodon- smart move, especially since you didn't seem able to spell it.

Bottom line though... heterodon don't have a delivery system for their toxins, this is essentially the defining point of the term "venomous" and the manner in which it is applied is the point which makes venom unique from other toxins.