Smoothies

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Okay. Obviously many people are repulsed by the sight of the silkback morph. But for crying out loud, people, make the effort to research this dragon before you judge the health, well-being, and genetics of this animal. The info to contact the breeders involved has been provided. I agree with what Mikey said above. I think it is really hard to carry on a decent debate when most of the people involved are forming opinions based on speculation alone.

Jamie

Some of us are making decisions based on the expressed traits of this animal. Thin, eyelid like skin was enough for me because of the danger to the animal during natural breeding.
I went to the Italian website and read everything they have on this. I do understand genetics, better than the average person anyway.
When people think of co-dominant traits they normally think of curly hair vs. Straight hair, or brown eyes vs. blue eyes, but genetic mutations or disorders can also be co-dominant and not so innocuous. Ask anyone who has Huntingtons disease running in their family or genetically linked cancer.
While I agree that people should be reacting to this based on information and not emotion, we never really get enough of that to make decisions based on scientific fact. In order to do that, we'd have to see genetic studies to see where the mutation is, and also have the information about what other issues can be caused by the mutation on that specific marker.
Genetics are a bit more complicated than just throwing out words like dominant or recessive gene traits, nor can you know enough to make an educated decision about this just by looking at clutch statistics on what this particular pairing of leatherbacks produced. There is one thing I know absolutely, this is exploitation of a genetic mutation. Is it harmless? We don't now the genetic implications, so we have to decide that by looking, and I would say that if these animals participate in normal breeding activity, their risk of injury is way higher than a normal animal because they do not have any built in protections.
I know the phrase "genetic engineering" sounds ugly, but its honest. The difference in what we often see in the animal world, and it doesn't matter if you're talking dogs or reptiles, is that there are no controls like their would be in a scientific experiment.
I'm one of those people who once I decided what kind of dog I wanted, I spent 8 months looking for a breeder. The reason I did that was to avoid the problems that have been bred into my specific dogs breed by back yard breeders and puppy mills who didn't care about the breed as long as they were making money. I ended up with a dog that had none of the genetic complications normally associated with the breed. I hate to say it, but it appears that people who really love bearded dragons should do the same thing.

Originally Posted by whiskersmom

Valley Dragons wrote:


My bad....and I do apologize. You've never posted that they are common in nature but with all the lectures you have been giving, it just seemed that maybe you had seen something I had not seen.
So my question, once again, is (and still yet to be answered), why? Just because it can be done, doesn't always mean it should be done.
Now that was a rhetorical question....I'm not implying that you [Valley Dragons] are breeding these creatures, but I've been reading your opinions on this and I would like to know what you think. Why do it? It possibly can't be to better the species? Right? It's not to help them live longer lives? Right? Shoot, it's not even to make them prettier...so why do it?
I think I know why....they're different. And being that they are different, a higher price tag can be attached, plain and simple.
Which brings me back to Adeno. If every dragon is positive then no one would have to test. A lot of money would be saved there.....especially for the bigger breeders.

What a crock.......someone has gotten so big that they've forgotten what it is like to actually care.

Why do it? Because they are different. Different is something that people (including me) like. What the heck is so wrong with different? I personally think that the silkbacks are beautiful creatures. I am sorry that you don't see it that way, but we are all entitled to our opinions. If the animal is not harmed and can lead a normal, happy life, then what is so wrong with a new morph? If the animal is harmed, or forced to live with some horrible handicap, then I would be the first to say that people have gone too far. As far as I know silkbacks do not have longer than normal lives, or even better the species as a whole. So what? If you are not causing harm, then what is the difference? I will ask again that people find out the facts concerning this morph before passing judgement.

Jamie

Originally Posted by Denisebme

Some of us are making decisions based on the expressed traits of this animal. Thin, eyelid like skin was enough for me because of the danger to the animal during natural breeding.
I went to the Italian website and read everything they have on this. I do understand genetics, better than the average person anyway.
When people think of co-dominant traits they normally think of curly hair vs. Straight hair, or brown eyes vs. blue eyes, but genetic mutations or disorders can also be co-dominant and not so innocuous. Ask anyone who has Huntingtons disease running in their family or genetically linked cancer.
While I agree that people should be reacting to this based on information and not emotion, we never really get enough of that to make decisions based on scientific fact. In order to do that, we'd have to see genetic studies to see where the mutation is, and also have the information about what other issues can be caused by the mutation on that specific marker.
Genetics are a bit more complicated than just throwing out words like dominant or recessive gene traits, nor can you know enough to make an educated decision about this just by looking at clutch statistics on what this particular pairing of leatherbacks produced. There is one thing I know absolutely, this is exploitation of a genetic mutation. Is it harmless? We don't now the genetic implications, so we have to decide that by looking, and I would say that if these animals participate in normal breeding activity, their risk of injury is way higher than a normal animal because they do not have any built in protections.
I know the phrase "genetic engineering" sounds ugly, but its honest. The difference in what we often see in the animal world, and it doesn't matter if you're talking dogs or reptiles, is that there are no controls like their would be in a scientific experiment.
I'm one of those people who once I decided what kind of dog I wanted, I spent 8 months looking for a breeder. The reason I did that was to avoid the problems that have been bred into my specific dogs breed by back yard breeders and puppy mills who didn't care about the breed as long as they were making money. I ended up with a dog that had none of the genetic complications normally associated with the breed. I hate to say it, but it appears that people who really love bearded dragons should do the same thing.

I understand that there is more to genetics that just the terminology. Yes, more studies need to be done to determine if there are any problems associated with this mutation. But the only way to do that is to proceed with the breeding project. If one clutch of dragons seems to be fine - then why not go ahead and see how two or three and more are - you know, start building up a decent volume of data. People can't have it both ways. They can't say "don't breed them" because there might be problems, and then expect more studies to be done on these dragons to determine if there are any problems.

I'll ask again that you actually talk to someone about the physical characteristics of these dragons before you make a judgement.

Jamie

Originally Posted by mikey

Why don't you get of your soapbox and find out the answers for yourself instead of running your piehole nonstop. Both breeders email's and phone numbers have been provided. Run with it and bring back some facts. Might be a eye opener. Or do you really want the facts. Rome is 7 hours ahead, if you call, by the way.

Since when have breeders been the sole arbiter of what is fact? Are any of these breeders geneticists? Do they know the which DNA marker has been changed to produce this mutation? Do they know what other traits are expressed by the same marker?
Since I'm well aware that all the answers are no and never, lets get real for a few minutes.
We all know what normal bearded dragon DNA produces during development, so there can be no doubt that this is a genetic abnormality. We can all through out words like "co-dominant trait", but its not going to change the fact that what we are talking about is the mutation of DNA and how that expresses itself.
Other than the appearance of the animal, how else is this mutation expressing itself, and can that even be known yet? Since this community relies on the honor system as far as reporting goes, the chances of that information actually coming out is going to take a lot of time.
When it comes to these issues, I always use one standard in deciding what is right, and what is not. What if these were human children we were talking about? Would it be ok to breed children intentionally that had no ears, arms or eyes? How about no natural defense to disease? What if we decided that it would be better for people to be hairless? Seems innocent enough, right? Except body hair is a part of our bodies natural defense mechanism. The hair on our heads prevents us from losing heat to fast in the winter, and it protects us against heat in the summer. Body hair in some places is a natural bacterial filter. So creating a completely hairless human isn't such a great idea after all.
The whole purpose of a self-policing industry is that people can decide for themselves what is simply to far, and they can express those opinions, even debate those opinions in order to bring some sanity and perspective to this industry as a whole.

Originally Posted by Denisebme

What if we decided that it would be better for people to be hairless? Seems innocent enough, right? Except body hair is a part of our bodies natural defense mechanism. The hair on our heads prevents us from losing heat to fast in the winter, and it protects us against heat in the summer. Body hair in some places is a natural bacterial filter. So creating a completely hairless human isn't such a great idea after all.

Do you think you could convince the fashion industry of that fact? If you can, you'd be my hero, lol.

Jamie

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

I understand that there is more to genetics that just the terminology. Yes, more studies need to be done to determine if there are any problems associated with this mutation. But the only way to do that is to proceed with the breeding project. If one clutch of dragons seems to be fine - then why not go ahead and see how two or three and more are - you know, start building up a decent volume of data. People can't have it both ways. They can't say "don't breed them" because there might be problems, and then expect more studies to be done on these dragons to determine if there are any problems.

I'll ask again that you actually talk to someone about the physical characteristics of these dragons before you make a judgement.

Jamie

Personally, I'm not saying "don't breed them". I'm saying that questioning the specifics of how wise a choice it is to breed them is legitimate and responsible.
Who do you suggest I talk to about the physical characteristics? I've read the published characteristics, and they alone are enough to cause concern. If you suggest talking to breeders, I don't think that is really going to answer anyone's questions because of the financial considerations involved.
Lets be real, this isn't a scientific study where you can rely on scientists to give a neutral explanation of the risks and benefits and how best to improve the species. No one is going to invest money to determine which genetic marker has mutated to give us this particular abnormality or openly talk about what other traits might be affected by the same mutation.
Unlike genetic mutations in people, there isn't any money to determine if this is indeed a harmless expression of a natural genetic trait, so people have to make that decision based on the evidence as presented, and lets face it, this animals skin is quite fragile as expressed by the published information from the breeder.
Another fact is that some people will always be willing to spend money on what is rare or different, and other people will be more than willing to provide them with what they want. That doesn't make the discussion any less important or legitimate, not for people who love these animals.

What's the matter bobby, don't have the balls to come back to Fauna with your trash talk. This is exactly what I was talking about"attacking vs. discussion." Are ya reading as a guest? Show your true colors again for our amusement. Or did you get the permanent boot from here? Hiding at bearded dragon.org !!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Varnyard
Newbie Poster


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Florida
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject:
This is what one of Vickie's defenders is saying, I might add they clearly admit this is a mutant.

Quote:
Valley Dragons: I understand that there is more to genetics that just the terminology. Yes, more studies need to be done to determine if there are any problems associated with this mutation. But the only way to do that is to proceed with the breeding project. If one clutch of dragons seems to be fine - then why not go ahead and see how two or three and more are - you know, start building up a decent volume of data. People can't have it both ways. They can't say "don't breed them" because there might be problems, and then expect more studies to be done on these dragons to determine if there are any problems.


So who wants a fragile handicap mutant? Oh and it is just awesome that this animal was created with so many handicaps. This is what they are saying.

I don't think it is too hard to figure out who is speaking behind the posts that Valley Dragons and Mikey are posting.

How sad!!

I'd like to remind everyone that this is the Bearded Dragon Discussion Forum, NOT the BOI.

Act accordingly.

Keep the debate civil.

Just so everyone's aware...

This was recently posted on Dachiu's website:

Once again, the rumor mill has been at a full grind - spreading inaccurate information. It would do the dragon community a huge favor if, before hitting the “Submit” button, a small amount of research for the facts were to take place. Sadly, many of these comments are based upon assumptions and badly drawn conclusions - which are a direct result of certain uninformed opinions.

This line of leatherbacks have been bred for some time now by Alessandro in Italy. This particular leatherback gene is reproducing in what appears to be a co dominant form - in the first generation the leatherback gene is displayed - identifying them as visible HETS... Since the heterozygous form is visibly identified - out crossing for several generations is possible without losing track of the gene mutation - close inbreeding is unnecessary.

Last year Alessandro put 2 healthy leatherbacks together for breeding - expecting a full clutch of leatherbacks. The silkback dragons were a surprise. The silkback dragon is what appears to be a “super” form of this type of leatherback. (This type of gene can easily be compared to pastel/super pastel ball pythons.) For those looking for a more detailed explaination please check out N.E.R.D.s website.

We did not have a hand in discovering this morph, but acquired a small group of animals to work with. To the best of our knowledge, the animals (silkback and leatherback) that Alessandro has produced to date have not had health problems related to this gene. All of the dragons we received were healthy upon arrival and have continued to thrive.

None of our cages have sharp/rough surfaces and any heating/humidity adjustments we have made in Ruby’s husbandry have been slight and done as a precaution - not a necessity. Just using a bit of common sense here…

If anyone has any questions - please feel free to give us a call.

Also of note : - The pictures that a certain party posted publicly are property of Bearded Dragons and other Creatures. That person was NOT given permission to reproduce them.

For anyone thinking that means the pictures were stolen, that is incorrect. The photos that were posted in this thread were not taken from any website. They were delivered via email. That email had no disclaimers of any kind. Further, no one involved has claimed that those photos belong to anyone, except of course, Vickie Dachiu.

Maybe someone needs to re-think who they trust with their confidential information, rather than insinuating others are stealing.

Originally Posted by mikey

What's the matter bobby, don't have the balls to come back to Fauna with your trash talk. This is exactly what I was talking about"attacking vs. discussion." Are ya reading as a guest? Show your true colors again for our amusement. Or did you get the permanent boot from here? Hiding at bearded dragon.org !!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Varnyard
Newbie Poster


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Florida
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject:
This is what one of Vickie's defenders is saying, I might add they clearly admit this is a mutant.

Quote:
Valley Dragons: I understand that there is more to genetics that just the terminology. Yes, more studies need to be done to determine if there are any problems associated with this mutation. But the only way to do that is to proceed with the breeding project. If one clutch of dragons seems to be fine - then why not go ahead and see how two or three and more are - you know, start building up a decent volume of data. People can't have it both ways. They can't say "don't breed them" because there might be problems, and then expect more studies to be done on these dragons to determine if there are any problems.


So who wants a fragile handicap mutant? Oh and it is just awesome that this animal was created with so many handicaps. This is what they are saying.

I don't think it is too hard to figure out who is speaking behind the posts that Valley Dragons and Mikey are posting.

How sad!!

This has nothing to do with Varnyard, why bring this here?
Obviously, he's not hiding if he's posting at BD.org.
There's a thread discussing the creation of the silkbacks there, he's involved in it, if you'd like to talk to him...go there.
Here's the link http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/v...er=asc&start=0