DWARF Leopard Geckos???

well in the scare goats, that is a defense mechanism... not all goats do that .... hairless scrotum pigs... well i wont go there.. thats ugly LOL bulldogs.. my father had one.. stupidest animal i ever laid my eyes on.. IMHO they shoukd not breed, infact most bulldog breedings are done through artificial insemination, they have to have a c-section and the pups have to be hand raised because the females are so stupid they will crush their own babies. now thats just scratching the surface on bulldogs... you have to wipe their butt every night because they can not on cork their corkscrew tail (so they do not get infection)... you have to each night clean inside the creases and their wrinkles, so they do not get infection... they have bad eye problems allot of times and can have serious drooling issues.. they have short life span because of the strain of their hearts... they do not have good hearts... is this a superior animal that needs to be bred... oh hell no.. they got problems everywhere.. but people think they are cute... would we ever get another? my father loved gus but no we wouldnt they have too many problems and these are nice high quality english bulldogs, from the best breders
just because we can doesnt mean we should

Again Monte well said. Lets not forget about what has been happening in the gold fish world. Some of those things are so short and stubby that they can barely swim, while others have growths known as "caps" on their heads that sometimes are so large that they cover their eyes. Speaking of their eyes, they also breed goldfish to have telescoping eyes and huge bubble eyes. They breed them for excessively long flowing fins, and some others are bred to have very short fins and sometimes a lack of certain fins all together. Is this good for the species? Well, the Goldfish breeders have somehow rationalized their thinking into believing that it is ok. So can it go to far, I would say yes it can. Have I pushed the boundaries by offering these geckos for sale. Considering what is done with dogs, cats, goldfish, and now goats, I do not think so. Basically, Marcia, when you say most of the big breeders agree with you, I don't really put that much stock in that, because unless they are purists, I do not believe that they have the species best interest in mind. They have their breeding interests (business) in mind. That is what the morph world boils down to. I did not breed these guys, I am just offering them to anyone that would like to work with them. I am glad to see that this thread had caused some of you to dust the cobwebs out from between your ears though. Kimberly, I have especially enjoyed your valuable contributions here (Yes, that was sarcasim). Marcia, I will pass your info to Chris. Good day, I am out.

. . . but I think that a lot of you guys just got ripped.

I'm glad I'm not you. LOL

I still want my fainting goat . . .

I don't think it is unethical because it technically does them no harm...however I do not personally think that if it is known to be genetic that they should be bred, because I see it as an undesireable trait (and I know many others including yourself do as well).

this is where you as a breeder has to make a choice aboiut ethics and not sit the fence ... people do not want to hear it but some weak animals must be culled... now it is my obigation to provide the best quality and healthy animals i can, as a breeder. kinked tails are just some of the more widely seen defects but other defects are usually associated with other problems ,sometimes underlieing. so, the gecko may seem great or "okay" on the outside but have problems on the inside... where do you draw the line? what about animals with the "failure to thrive syndrome"... how long can you let them go? thets say they do not die but they dont thrive they just exist.. they eat enough to keep them alive... they arent skinny but they just linger and dont grow.. what do you do?

Lets not forget about what has been happening in the gold fish world. Some of those things are so short and stubby that they can barely swim, while others have growths known as "caps" on their heads that sometimes are so large that they cover their eyes. Speaking of their eyes, they also breed goldfish to have telescoping eyes and huge bubble eyes. They breed them for excessively long flowing fins, and some others are bred to have very short fins and sometimes a lack of certain fins all together.

allot of those gold fish are different types... so really that is not a valid arguiong point... neither are the "scare goats" its a defense mechanism. bulldos would i breed them NO why? they are weak, inferior animals. and somewhere down the road you have to either have your moral standpoint or not and then left the public judge as to what they think. these arent your geckos,so you say But you are selling them for someone else.. it doesnt matter whom that someone else is the next time someone scans past your ads.. that maybe whats on their mind... personally i do not think you know jack about genetics, and most likely less about leopard geckos and you have tried poorly to justify your ethics

I did make a choice about ethics...whether some animals with minor mutations (I actually should not have said defect because I made a point of saying things that don't cause any general harm...) that cause no general harm should be bred or not is not ethics...it is a personal choice. Also I made a point of specifying mutations that cause no general harm...so those with underlying problems are NOT included in this. "Failure to thrive syndrome" to me means the animal dies without reaching maturity, which means they never even get the chance to breed so that has nothing to do with this discussion either as I was speaking specifically of breeding. However since you brought it up...with animals that are not really thriving into adulthood, if they are not in pain I'd take the best care of them I could (or sell them to someone else who would be willing to do so without attempting to breed)...I would never breed them, but I wouldn't cull them either.

Ethics be damned, those "skinny pigs" are butt-ugly!!!! (sorry kelli, but they JUST ARE

I know he is! He's one of those animals that is so darn ugly, it's cute LOL!

Interesting discussion on these dwarves!

allot of those gold fish are different types... so really that is not a valid arguiong point...

Why is that not a valid arguing point?...so what if they are different types...they are different types based on gross deformity... (again not defending any breeding policies/ethics...just wondering how that's not a valid argument whether I would agree with it or not...)

is it a gross deformity if it is a characteristic of a certain subspecies or species?

i know of a gecko.. whom has cataracs and bug eyes.. does that warrant breeding or not?
genetic or not?
i know of a gecko with a short arm...... breed or not? genetic or not?
could their be other problems with these animals underlieing? yes do we know for sure? no
and how do you know that kinked tails are not associated with other underlieing issues?
i am assuming you may have an animal with a kinked tail (i could be wrong) and are trying to justiify the breeding of it... whether you think so or not it comes down to ethics

This is seemingly pointless due to the fact it is going round and round.
I know Chris also and know for a fact that she wouldn't breed something that could somehow be detrimental to the "gene pool."