Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Douglass
From the thread discern mentioned on the other forum...
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Now since this seems to be going in the direction of some sort of manhunt for me from posts by "Rainbowboaman", I will gladly address the issue. This needs to be put in proper perspective as to exactly why I stated what I did in the forum posts, not randomly out of text as though I put a gun to Adams head and forced him to state what he did, or initiated or concocted all of this myself because I had a personal axe to grind with Ken, because I certainly do not. There were quite obviously many of the very pertinent details of the transaction "conveniently" left out of Adam's posts that I read on the other forum. That was all I had to go by. Only
HE knows what went on to come over here and post about, nobody else.
These are the initial forum posts by Adam that prompted me to state what I did to him to begin with. Otherwise, I wouldn't have ever suggested so strongly that he go to the BOI with it in the first place if I knew all of this, even though there were definitely several aspects to this transaction that I personally certainly would have ever let happen when shipping animals out to a customer. A good example would be that two snakes DO NOT start blowing bubbles and display a cheesy substance in their mouths overnight (infectious stomatitis, aka "mouth rot",... that just ain't possible. And they certainly don't loose drastic weight and develop loose folds of skin down their length overnight either. I know this for a fact from having been in this hobby for 45 years since 1967, and owned thousands of all different types of snakes over the decades. Nobody on earth can tell me that is acceptable.
But regardless of any of that, Adam admittedly failed to include to me alot of the pertinent info and correspondence that took place between them. I was led to believe that Ken TOTALLY refused to do anything about it at all from what he posted and what I read. And of course if it was indeed how he stated things happened (but clearly were not) I would still say the exact same things without question. From what I understood from reading Adam's posts, it looked as though he got taken to the cleaners and was left out to dry and totally ignored by Ken. Again, that obviously wasn't the case either.
Obviously what Adam posted, and what I read were not accurate representations of what actually took place between the two parties, so nobody can lay any blame on me for the BOI post, I could only go by what Adam posted and assumed what he stated was reasonably accurate. He is the only person that could decide exactly what to type-out and post here, certainly not me.
Anyway, this is what I responded to post by post along with some other forum member's comments.........
AdamWhite
Bush-League Private
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
Quick Black Rat Question
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Hello, I am new here, so hi.
Just a quick question. At what age or size do black rats start to darken up?
I have a "Black" rat that is about 5 months and about 26" - 28" inches in length. The reason I said "black" was because it seems to be turning yellow.
When do rats start to change colors?
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quality serpents
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Mine generally start turning at somewhere between 12 and 18 months, often times not fully turned until they are 2-2 and 1/2 years old. Thing is though, black rat snake and yellow rat snake hatchlings can look very similar. Is there any chance what you have is actually a yellow rat snake?
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norsmis
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern IL
Title: Staff Officer
Posts: 26,989
Or it could be an intergrade. Lots of those floating around. I have had many black rats and never had one turn yellow. Grey yes, but never yellow.
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Ron Sims, Midwest Colubrids
AdamWhite
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Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
Well, I purchased it from Ken Foose of Exotic pets Las vegas.
So I don't know what it is.
This is a little bit of a sad story.
I purchased 3 snakes from Ken Foose. 2 cal king's and 1 black rat. Well, the 2 "healthy" cal kings arrived. 1 had a HUGE kink in its neck. The other was severely dehydrated. Both ended up dying after less than a week. Both died from the same thing, RI's.
So, I can't really trust what he said. It might be anything. Grey, yellow or black, who know's.
All I know is that Ken Foose made me
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Adam White
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norsmis
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern IL
Title: Staff Officer
Posts: 26,989
And a very good reason to steer clear of the big flippers. They dont even know what they have. Sorry to hear you got taken but lesson learned, right?
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Ron Sims, Midwest Colubrids
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quality serpents
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Harrison, TN
Posts: 1,585
Uh-oh. Sorry you lost the little fellas.
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Shane Whitaker D.V.M.
www.qualityserpents.com
I intend to live forever. So far, so good.
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AdamWhite
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
Yes. My lesson was deffinitly learned. Only going to buy from the smaller breeders. Like the people on this forum. You know the type, the ones that actually know what their animals look like.
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Adam White
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Sara
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minnesota
Title: Contest Commander
Posts: 19,116
I'm going to step in here and ask if you told Ken what happened, if you talked to him at all, or if you just did nothing and decided that he sucked? Ken has ALWAYS been 100% stand up. He wouldn't have been around as long as he has been if he hadn't been. I know there has been some personal things going on there right now, but can not see something like that happening.... But if it did, I for sure can not see him not making it right.
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DMong
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: central Florida
Posts: 711
It sounds like it could very easily be a Texas Ratsnake instead, or at least have a substantial amount of intergrade geneflow from the Texas Ratsnake. Some Texas ratsnakes can be VERY yellow and/or reddish/orange in their background coration. They can vary DRASTICALLY in appearance and be very dark, dull and drab looking like many typical Black Rats can, or in some cases be extremely contrasty with vivid yellow/orange ground color with distinct dark dorsal blotches.......or anything intermediate of the two extremes. It really all depends on what region of the country their lineage is from.
Many in the northern Texas/southern Oklahoma region are intergrades of the two, as well as the central area of Louisiana and the very southwestern corner of Arkansas.
By the same token, any breeder could have simply tossed the two subspecies together and made intergrades, it's impossible to say.
All North American Ratsnakes of the "obsoletus" complex look very similar as hatchlings, and don't look anything like they will as mature adults except the Gray Ratsnake. It basically stays more the same than the others do, even though they can often darken up too, or in the case of the "White Oak" phase Gray rat originating from north/central Florida, can actually lighten up on their dorsal blotching.
Do a google image search for "Texas Ratsnake", and you will see many different examples like I am talking about.
Now here on the other hand is a link to gorgeous wild-caught example of a Texas Rat specimen owned by a friend of mine.
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1946182,1946592
BTW, there is NO excuse for him sending two snakes out to you in that condition........NONE!, and I hope you let him know about it ASAP too!
~Doug
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Larry
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kentucky
Title: General of League
Posts: 12,341
Wanna hear something funny? I clicked on this thread from the "new posts" option thinking it was a rodent question. I was thinking to myself, who cares about the color of the feed...lol Yes, I'm having a long night..
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quality serpents
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Yeah brada, go on to bed. will be here waiting on you in the morning. And the words will look a little more crisp and less run together for you.
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Shane Whitaker D.V.M.
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I intend to live forever. So far, so good.
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AdamWhite
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara
I'm going to step in here and ask if you told Ken what happened, if you talked to him at all, or if you just did nothing and decided that he sucked? Ken has ALWAYS been 100% stand up. He wouldn't have been around as long as he has been if he hadn't been. I know there has been some personal things going on there right now, but can not see something like that happening.... But if it did, I for sure can not see him not making it right.
Alright, here is the whole story.
I searched around for a good breeder of cal kings that also had black rats. I found Ken Foose. So I purchased 1 cal king and 1 black rat. Both arrived alive. The black rat was a little on the slim side, but fairly active and seemed healthy enough. I looked at the cal king next. I noticed(i don't know how you couldn't) a very bad kink directly behind the kings head.
So I called foose and told him what happened. He said that he hadn't noticed the kink when he shipped it. Then he said he could send me another one but I had to pay shipping. Well, that right there wasn't quite right. He should have sent one free of charge.
So the next king was on the way. It arrived, I opened the container and found about the sickliest little snake I have ever seen. It looked to be completely dehydrated. It couldn't control its body. It was pretty much a rag doll. I began soaking him in an electrolyte solution. He drank some and seemed to perk up. But, he wasn't quite right. He was still severly underweight. I continued soaking him for several days.
I tried offering some food. Him didn't take it. I kept him nice and warm so he could fight whatever he had. Then he started blowing bubbles. Within a couple of hours he had died.
Mean while, the snake with the kink started blowing bubbles and resting with his mouth open. Later that day, it died.
So I called Foose. He said he was sorry and that the snake wasn't sick when it was shipped. He said he would give me a discount on kingsnakes next time.
Yeah right, next time my foot!!
The black rat is still doing fine. But seems to be yellowing. He said that they were bred on sight, but who knows.
Well, needless to say, I will not buy from foose again.
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DMong
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Holy smokes man!,.........he very knowingly screwed you around, and I would never buy ANYTHING from him either. On top of it all, he now has your money from the sickly snakes he knowingly sent you with DEFINITE respiratory infections, bad spinal kink, and dehyration from being so unhealthy. He owes you for the dead snakes AND the shipping cost that he never should have charged you in the first place too.
If you go over to the faunaclasifieds BOI(Board OF Inquiry), you will see other horrible business transactions he has made with other very disatisfied customers as well. Afew transactions that did go okay do NOT offset and makup for all the very bad one's he has made in the past. That is a FACT!
Your snakes didn't get that way overnight. He is playing "dumb" and assumes everyone else he deals with is too. I would avoid doing any business with him like the freakin plague. He screwed you around and he knows he did!
His response to you was pure nonsense man, and he owes you money, simple as that!
I just looked at a very misleading ad of his just recently too brought up on the BOI regarding a very misleading (basically deceitful) name he had for a very known amel hybrid cross that was labeled as a "variable king". The name "variable" king is a very commonly used name for the Nuevo Leon kingsnake(L.m. thayeri), not for a very known hybrid amel cross of an amel Ruthven's kingsnake x thayeri. In this case, he is simply playing stupid again and acting like they are a genuinely accepted authentic specific type of snake, when in fact he knows this isn't the case at all. What he is attempting to sell is a commonly known cross coined in the hobby as an albino "pastel king".
Anyway, there is all sorts of different bad transactions he has made with very unsatisfied customers. A few customers that did give good props about their transactions don't mean squat when you find out about all the details of the bad one's Foose has had in the past.
I would never order so much as an Aspen shaving from the guy to be quite honest, because even that would probably arrive hear infested with mites from the stuff I have also read over there for chrissakes!
Anyway, it's too bad you had to get screwed around by this guy's operation to learn about him.
Bottom line is do some research on people's reputations before getting animals from them. Sure there are very reputable bigger businesses out there, as well as very crappy small personal businesses too, but as a very general rule, most smaller personal businesses have captive-raised the breeders and hatchlings themselves, have far more hands-on knowledge of the animals themselves, and generally know far more about the linages, histories, and origins of their smaller collections of animals they keep and breed because they aren't getting snakes from any ol' "Joe-Blow" and flipping them for a buck knowing nothing about the animals other that what someone "told" them. This describes myself and MANY of the top-notch breeder friends I know and deal with around the country.
Anyway, I would be flooding that guy with so many different types of correspondence it would make his head spin man!......your crappy experience with him along with all the other sh!* I have heard about him really irks me too in a major way!!
That is definite "bad guy" BOI material there man! ........I would definitely post over there if he doesn't make good with you ASAP!!!
~Doug
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AdamWhite
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
Well, this happened about 4 months ago and I did hit him with everything I had. He basically shrugged it off and said tough. I am going over there to post ASAP.
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Adam White
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DMong
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: central Florida
Posts: 711
Oh hell yes!, after four months of blowing you off like that, I would post every single little detail about it there as well. He very knowingly "robbed" you is what he did!
BTW, read some of the other stuff there about some of his other "great" business transactions, and you will see a definite pattern of exactly how he has operated in the past.
The silly part is that his being too cheap(and stupid) to have taken care of you will cost him FAR more in future sales from all the people that will certainly read about it there than if he had just reimbursed you in the first place, but apperently he is far too stupid to realize that too I guess.........geeez, what a DOLT!!
regards, ~Doug
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Now this was posted by Adam
AFTER the BOI drama
10-11-2011, 07:52 PM
AdamWhite
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong
Oh hell yes!, after four months of blowing you off like that, I would post every single little detail about it there as well. He very knowingly "robbed" you is what he did!
BTW, read some of the other stuff there about some of his other "great" business transactions, and you will see a definite pattern of exactly how he has operated in the past.
The silly part is that his being too cheap(and stupid) to have taken care of you will cost him FAR more in future sales from all the people that will certainly read about it there than if he had just reimbursed you in the first place, but apperently he is far too stupid to realize that too I guess.........geeez, what a DOLT!!
regards, ~Doug
Oh, crud. I did forget to mention one thing. He did end up refunding the price of the kingsnakes themselves, but he didn't refund the shipping cost. Sorry for any confusion that might of caused.
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Adam White
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10-11-2011, 07:53 PM
AdamWhite
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 41
So I'm out 130 dollars for 1 black rat.
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Adam White
This is all of it in it's entirety. I am not personally responsible for any of it, only what I suggested if it was indeed how I was told it was by Adam, nothing more, nothing less.
I will always stand by what I said given those were indeed the true and accurate circumstances that actually took place. I only responded honestly to what I was presented, nothing more.
best regards, ~Doug
Ken Foose, not a good dealer
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