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Old 01-26-2003, 11:24 PM   #41
Rob @ RK Reptiles

Ok I can understand you not wanting those other post. But the fact of the matter is you came here, asked for input and advice, have received the advice and input and the consensus is there is no responsibility on the Seller/Breeder. That should be it in my eyes but it seems that you are not happy with that and want to keep looking as you think you will find someone that will agree with you that they are at fault.
Old 01-26-2003, 11:26 PM   #42
Seamus Haley

If I read Adam's first post correctly, he was looking for anyone else who may have purchased an animal from the same breeder and experienced a similar situation, which would have formed a signifigant balance of evidence that, even if it isn't genetic, it was the result of negligent care before it was sold...

If he can get even two or three people who purchased animals from the same vendor and had the same outcome, I'd say he has pretty signifigant evidence (I would usually suggest more than two or three but balls do have fairly small clutches).
Old 01-26-2003, 11:34 PM   #43
Adam Block
Seamus I asked you this based on your quotes?

I have also found wildly varying lengths of time listed for the duration it takes for secondary gout to become lethal if untreated,
You have some of the most educated posts in here. Can you please back these great staitments up with the links to this information?

Since it's apparently well outside of the guarantee period, this leaves the buyer S.O.L. in this instance, especially when statistically, it seems more likely that the condition developed after the animal had been purchased
What is their guarantee period?

Also, you seem to have a source of information in this matter many don't. I link to were you found these statistic would be very helpful to us all.

Rob, Seamus is correct. I haven't put blame anyplace. I'm only guessing and asking questions at this point and haven't pointed a finger anyplace. I only question some things.

In speaking with my friend who also had a snake die from this breeder. He mention he bought and was charged for a CB00 snake. This was a few months back that he bought this two year old. When the snake came it was 282 grams. I have CB02 balls that are over 400 grams. The feed card also showed feedings once a month. This snake died as well within two months of him getting it and based on weight I would say it was neglected to some extent. If it was only fed once a month to you really think it always had fresh water?

I want to know if this has happend to anybody else? If not I will let it go as I don't care if I get a refund or a replacement. If I had I would have posted this months ago.

Adam Block
Old 01-26-2003, 11:35 PM   #44
Right on Seamus! You just saved me from writing that very same thing. If there are more people out there who had the same problem it could become an issue. And that is what I read in his first post as well. You can quit banging you head now. LOL
No accusations because he did not name the breeder. It would be in his and the others ( if there is others) and ours to know this info.

Rozann Lamont
Old 01-27-2003, 01:48 AM   #45
Gilbert Thompson
Is there anything suggesting that gout is considered genetic or that it has anything to do with the husbandry of the breeder? Just my opinion but I think Ball Python hatchlings should have at least eaten five times prior to being sold. It's not a set number or anything I just feel it shows the snake is ready for another home if it is a good, steady eater.
I know alot of breeders selling them right out of the egg and I also know alot of breeders making sure they are established feeders first. I prefer the later! Ecspecially, when high end animals are involved.
If some breeders prefer selling them right out of the egg. I believe this should be made aware of to the buyer. I also don't feel it is the buyers place to ask. I feel a good breeder should be honest and forthcoming enough to pass every detial in regards to the snake onto the buyer prior to the sale.
After all it's not all about money or at least it shouldn't be.
Just my opinion of course!!
Gilbert Thompson
Old 01-27-2003, 01:52 AM   #46
Gilbert Thompson
What sixe food item did she regurge on?
Gilbert Thompson
Old 01-27-2003, 02:07 AM   #47
Double "D" Reptiles
Lightbulb one piece of info missing

Didn't see this thread until I got home from work tonight, so trying to catch up quickly and see what there is to learn. It seems that one key piece of information is missing which would enable everyone to concentrate their efforts to determine whether other neonate BPs were puchased (albino or not) from this particular dealer which may have died unexpectedly with or without a necropsy to determine the cause of death.

Who is the dealer?

I realize that this little bit of information may be quite unsavory for the masses, but as dealers, buyers and sellers (not to mention possible key witnesses to one side or the other) we are at a complete loss in our ability to ascertain any further information without this name, business or person.

I cringed when I read the topic line and dreaded what I would find when I began reading this thread. However, I will admit that I've learned from it in ways I never thought about. Gout was not one of those things I'd given thought to before now (outside of humans) and is yet another topic for me to reasearch further in order to increase my knowledge and be able to share. Having purchased imported CH balls in the past, I can now better appreciate the need to fully acclimate them and have them feeding regularly and watching more closely for them to be dringing on their own. While I knew this was important (can't think of a single one we lost or that was reported to us as a non-survivor later, though we did have a couple that were real pains and we wouldn't sell due to them being problems until almost 8 months later) I did not know exactly how important it was. To think that some pet shops actually plan on a 50% loss is outrageous and, to me, unacceptable as it seems to link directly to the care the animals receive while in the care of the shop.

As to the purchase/problem/refund issue, I fear that it could be one of those "cold days" we often hear mentioned before this issue is resolved amicably between all parties involved. As long as the seller is offering the best quality animal possible (granted we all seem to have slightly varied definitions and time-frames) with no known problems in their colonies such as genetic defects, illnesses or infestations of the internal/external varieties, then it is generally granted that a healthy animal is being sold/purchased. The breeder, who's name I have yet to read unless I missed it, could be asked about gout in their breeding stock, but they are probably clean as they have survived and thrived to the point of reproducing great looking offspring as witnessed by the photo. Unless enough evidence can be collected that points to a neglect issue in regards to the treatment of the offspring (enough for a jury of their peers to either convict or or for a judge to rule based on the evidence presented) then the buyer(s) of the animals is probably going to be S.O.L. Likewise, the seller, if pushed to look at a refund on something they adamantly claim is not their fault, is going to be looking for any inkling that conditions were not optimal AFTER the animal was sold...somewhere along the way. They'd use this to weaken the buyer's claim and discredit them in the issue.

By providing the seller's name here, more "networking" among keepers and breeders can take place to locate other offspring that were purchased at or about the same date in order to ascertain the survival of other animals and answer the overall health question.

As a seller of the animals we breed here, I'll offer a possible solution as if it were me (wish it was me with albino BPs and other high-end critters so I wouldn't be stuck in fast food) as the seller. If I had another albino ball that I had for sell, I'd offer to do a partial replacement, perhaps 1/2 price since I don't know exactly what happened and am unable to contact other buyers to see if similar outcomes were regular. This would likely be a hold-back animal and the selling it like this would definitely hurt future production, but worth it to set things right. If I had none available, I'd offer 1st choice of the first clutch to hatch next year at the same price (value fixed at 1/2 the cost of the original animal regardless of unknown costs the following year which could be more or possibly less depending upon production from an unknown number of breeders.) I would not offer a monetary refund as it would seem quite questionable and make me extremely suspicious of the circumstances. The original buyer would have the option of taking the offer or letting it be. It the individual, for whatever reason, chose to wait until the following year's first clutch and then neglected to respond after 2 or 3 serious attempts to contact (both by e-mail and phone),then they would forfeit all rights to the offer. If they chose at any point to decline the offer, then I'd say it was the end of discussion on the issue. I offer this scerario based on reading that the original breeder was successful in breeding attempts over more than one year, so offspring for the following year could/would be expected.

Okay, that was my $0.02 plus change.

David (friendly know-it-not-at-all)
Old 01-27-2003, 02:07 AM   #48
This is also what I read in his first post.... interesting how people read the same words online and see it differently, perhaps our own experiences play a larger role than we realize in reading something written opposed to the expressions that go with spoken words.

We lost a baby bearded dragon, long story short, from posting inquiries online we were able to find out not only that hundreds of babies from the same breeder were having the same problem, but they continued to sell them months later still dying with the these problems and able to help the newer owners avoid losing theirs with a heads up on what was causing it and quick treatment.

Same as some breeders/dealers may have read his post as trying to gather supporters to go after the breeder and that hit close to them.

Just an interesting point I thought.

Concerning gout, what many quote is a form of the disease that takes many months, years to develop due to diet. Dying at 2 months of age is not the case here. Neither is it an overnight development. I have read many studies on gout in pythons including one Cornell University did on young being shipped and it explains many forms of it, I was referring to studies on animals that were stressed in shipping and lack hydration, going for a short period of time without optimal conditions.

A high proportion of these animals were badly stressed in transit and the losses kept the price of the surviving animals fairly high. Most of these animals did not do very well in captivity, as dehydration from the trip caused visceral gout, killing many of the animals within a few months.
Old 01-27-2003, 02:46 AM   #49
Adam Block

Here's what it comes down to for me. Refund or not, replacement or not. I feel this is an issue of ethics and not only with my situation but with other stories I've heard from people, as in the one I relayed about a two year old weighing only 282 grams.

These facts are the only things I have to go on and they are as follows:

1) The snake was sold within 14 days of hatching.
2) The snake died of gout.
3) The snake was free of any other protozoa at the time of death.
4) The snake ALWAYS had water while in my care.
5) The snake was feeding with no troubles.
6) The breeder has sold at least one underfed snake in the past.
7) That snake died as well.
8) He sold other from this clutch while at the show.
9) He denies even a chance that there could have been an error on his end.
10) The snake was promised as healthy at the time of purchase.
11) The snake was less then 8 weeks old at the time of death.
12) The snake had a 1275-mile trip down to Daytona with or without water.
13) The breeder claims to have the most geneticly diverse line of albino balls in the Country.
14) The breeder told me he only produced 15 albinos this year.
15) The breeder told me he gets burned out on snakes on a weekly basis.

With the above said I will focus on those issues only. I will also say the reason I purchase my animals from the breeders I do is because I feel they are big enough people in this business with enough of a reputation at risk to be trusted. In many cases I've found the person to seemingly only care about the money and have not done business with them. In others, I've found them to care about the snakes and people buying from them above all else. In all honesty, I've learned a lot from this. Mainly that nothing should be assumed and just because you've bought from a big name breeder doesn't mean you will not run into big troubles and surely doesn't mean the snakes have had good care.

I was blindsided by this, as this is a very trusted breeder when it comes to ball pythons and I didn't even think it as a possibility that I would get a fresh out of the egg snake without being told and the price reflecting it.

I'm not going to mention the breeder by name at this point because I feel that little has been established to back my conclusions. I don't feel with two dead snakes there is a backing or foundation for anything more then two odd occurrences.

Until I've seen a pattern I'm not going to put a mark on some bodies reputation as I think with the way things sit that would not be the responsible thing to do.

Has ANYBODY else had a ball python from a larger name breeder drop over in a manner like this? Or for that matter do any of you have any proof of poor care? I don't need a name but if you can post or email me the story it many be a help to establish a pattern and go from there.

Thank you all for reading this and taking part. Please if you have something to add feel free to do so. Understand though, I’m not pointing a finger or asking for anything to come of this. I’m only posting this because I feel there may be an issue here that needs to be taken care of if this has happened in more cases then the two at hand.

Thanks a lot,
Adam Block
Old 01-27-2003, 03:46 AM   #50
Two quick points:

1) Cheri, ball pythons are not and were not brought from Indonesia to the USA. There has always been a generous import volume from three licensed African nations. Ghana, Togo and Benin.

2) Adam, in the pic on page one that snake looks poor to me. It is thin, showing it's spine and the tail looks thin which is an outward sign of dehydration. The color does note a linage that has been problematic over time, but I feel you know that already.

Evan Stahl

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