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Old 10-07-2011, 01:33 AM   #21
TonyDCaver
I think this may help people get a better perspective of why most mentors have you do "bitch" work.
http://www.snakegetters.com/hk/handling1.html
Best,
Tony DC
 
Old 10-07-2011, 03:40 AM   #22
MiamiCracker
First of all let me say that was a great read. Thank you Tony D.
I will say thats is something anybody wanting to learn should read.

But the article says the teacher is right there showing and teaching and explaining.

You write this as if the student has little to no expeirence with snakes.
Most if not all who are trying to "learn" and aquire their VR permit already have and have had for a while, snakes, lizards, monitors, and the such so they know how to clean a cage. They know how to "look in and find" the animal before opening the cage. (but the example in the article was very pointed and proper)
I don't need any schooling on how to clean a cage. Trust me.

Also you don't take into account what a person already knows, or has already done.
What does the student already have and has had. Have they (like alot of people) had venomous before? Do they have any other animals that require the same amount of attenion to detail?
What other things have they done in life that may have help? them with the education they are wanting. ( just as a side note most people who have worked in jails or prisons pay better attention to the little details like the mundane being out of place so they would be a little better prepared than the average "keeper".
or any other profession that requires the like.)

I dont have a problem HELPING to clean out your cages, but if you are just going to sit there and watch.....you got another thing coming.
like I said I have been through it and to hell with that. Either TEACH me or go pound sand.

again the article was great but there is room for improvement.

You also write as though the teacher has ALOT of snakes, hot or other wise.
The problem with that is not too many people have alot of snakes. A couple pythons and a couple hots (by couple I mean 3 to 4).

NOW..........just so everybody knows where I'm coming from.......
I have had 8 Rattlesnakes, 2 monocled cobras, 2 specktecled cobras. 1 king cobra, 2 bush masters, 6 eyelash vipers, 3 white lipped vipers, and a few others that I can't think of right now, BUT......the point is this.....I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING........I have never had a VRC but have decided to get my VRC and own hots again (I currently don't have any) but I do keep some animals that are just as if not (different debate) more venomous than most of the snakes. I also have a few non V snakes.
so again I know what I'm doing but almost everybody I have me in the "hot" hobby seems to be a little high on themselves because "I keep hots"......
My point is you were not born with your knowlegde of hots you had to learn and if you are going to continue to treat "newbies" with the disdain that you do ...no wonder we dont have enough people in the higher rafters of goverment to stopo stupid laws from getting passed. and you do treat alot of newbies with disdain and disrespect. By that I mean when asked what advise you would give a person thinking about getting into hots dont say......... "DON'T" .....like I have seen hundreds of times in this and different forums.
Just help them out as much as you can because if people took that advise ...... there would BE NO MORE HOBBY................

but thats just my opinion.....and what do I know right?
 
Old 10-07-2011, 09:35 AM   #23
hhmoore
A) - Tony didn't write that. The author was clearly listed as Scott Bice.
B) - In case you didn't get the point, people that have been keeping snakes need to RElearn things, as they generally have bad habits that could be dangerous with hots.
C) - The fact that you have had hots before doesn't mean you do things "properly", or to the satisfaction of your mentor. I wouldn't just let somebody jump in with hots, even if they claimed to have more cumulative experience than I have. Doesn't matter whether you think of it as an issue of morality, conscience, or liability; when serving as a mentor for someone interested in keeping hots, there is a lot at stake.
D) - The requirement in FL is, what, 1000 hrs? That's a lot of time....think how it would be to have to spend it with someone that approaches it with the attitude you're showing us here. I know it can be a frustrating process, and you want to "get to the good stuff"...but, did you ever ask if there is a reason you aren't progressing?

Obviously, having not witnessed any of your experiences, I cannot speak to your abilities and skills, OR the methods employed by your chosen mentors...but, it comes down to one simple truth: you need the time to get your license, so you can either 1) suck it up and deal with the process with your mentor, 2) find somebody else that takes an approach you like better, or 3) scrap the idea.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 02:55 PM   #24
TonyDCaver
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiCracker View Post
First of all let me say that was a great read. Thank you Tony D.
I will say thats is something anybody wanting to learn should read.

But the article says the teacher is right there showing and teaching and explaining.

You write this as if the student has little to no expeirence with snakes.
Most if not all who are trying to "learn" and aquire their VR permit already have and have had for a while, snakes, lizards, monitors, and the such so they know how to clean a cage. They know how to "look in and find" the animal before opening the cage. (but the example in the article was very pointed and proper)
I don't need any schooling on how to clean a cage. Trust me.

Also you don't take into account what a person already knows, or has already done.
What does the student already have and has had. Have they (like alot of people) had venomous before? Do they have any other animals that require the same amount of attenion to detail?
What other things have they done in life that may have help? them with the education they are wanting. ( just as a side note most people who have worked in jails or prisons pay better attention to the little details like the mundane being out of place so they would be a little better prepared than the average "keeper".
or any other profession that requires the like.)

I dont have a problem HELPING to clean out your cages, but if you are just going to sit there and watch.....you got another thing coming.
like I said I have been through it and to hell with that. Either TEACH me or go pound sand.

again the article was great but there is room for improvement.

You also write as though the teacher has ALOT of snakes, hot or other wise.
The problem with that is not too many people have alot of snakes. A couple pythons and a couple hots (by couple I mean 3 to 4).

NOW..........just so everybody knows where I'm coming from.......
I have had 8 Rattlesnakes, 2 monocled cobras, 2 specktecled cobras. 1 king cobra, 2 bush masters, 6 eyelash vipers, 3 white lipped vipers, and a few others that I can't think of right now, BUT......the point is this.....I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING........I have never had a VRC but have decided to get my VRC and own hots again (I currently don't have any) but I do keep some animals that are just as if not (different debate) more venomous than most of the snakes. I also have a few non V snakes.
so again I know what I'm doing but almost everybody I have me in the "hot" hobby seems to be a little high on themselves because "I keep hots"......
My point is you were not born with your knowlegde of hots you had to learn and if you are going to continue to treat "newbies" with the disdain that you do ...no wonder we dont have enough people in the higher rafters of goverment to stopo stupid laws from getting passed. and you do treat alot of newbies with disdain and disrespect. By that I mean when asked what advise you would give a person thinking about getting into hots dont say......... "DON'T" .....like I have seen hundreds of times in this and different forums.
Just help them out as much as you can because if people took that advise ...... there would BE NO MORE HOBBY................

but thats just my opinion.....and what do I know right?
Miami,
Let me start by saying I was in no way insulting your abilities of handling hots. I did not write this article but I found it a very good read and everything on that website is wonderful for the reading and education aspect of keeping hots.

Keep in mind many people own hots for many years and get away with very stupid things that they may not realize are stupid out of shear ignorance, sometimes its not their fault because they have never been taught otherwise. Someone once told me that use every chance you can get to watch people handle hots, take what you think is good and what you think is bad. You will see some very horrible handling from people and you will also see great handling skills.

Just pay attention, keep an open mindset and always be learning. When you stop learning and improving will be when your in trouble. Your doing the right thing by asking questions but I don't think these boards are going to do you much good. A lot of people in the hot community are very secretive and do not talk about their collections or what they do and generally do not want to take on new "recruits". Start by going to one of the venomous shows like Columbia in SC and talk to people there. You will find people from FL and make connections. It may take awhile to find someone you really want to mentor you, just because someone has a VRC doesn't make them the best candidate to learn from if you know what I mean

Best,
Tony
 
Old 10-07-2011, 03:08 PM   #25
hhmoore
Too see horrible handling, all you have to do is watch some of the videos on youtube. I'm sure there are some good ones, but YIKES - I'm surprised a lot of those people aren't dead.
 
Old 10-07-2011, 03:14 PM   #26
TonyDCaver
Your telling me!
 
Old 10-08-2011, 05:48 AM   #27
MiamiCracker
I was just responding to the OP to begin with....
there are some people who get on the boards and never answer a question, they just put in their 2 cents and it was never asked for.
If I ask a question I expect an answer not opinion.
If I were to ask what are some tips on free handleing Green Mambas,
I am asking just that..........tips.....not "thats stupid"......"dont do it"......"your just gonna hurt the hobby"...................and so on and so forth....

didnt ask if I should ....just asked if anybody had some tips on how to do it.
Granted...if you want to free handle a green mamba, I, personaly, believe you to be a darwin award waiting to happen, and since I have no tips or advice on HOW TO FREE HANDLE GREEN MAMBAS I will keep my mouth (fingers) shut and move on to the next subject.........
the OP asked for TIPS on how to do something.
and now get ready for the flaming .........if you are stupid enough to handle, own, move, buy, house, feed, or any other activity that entails taking the risk of being envenomated, and you are not properly trained, then thank you for cleaning out the human gene pool.

I do know what I'm doing with venomous. I have a ton of expeirence, but anytime I decide to work with a specie that I have never had before.........I find someone who does. But the problem is .....when looking for said "mentor" you will find alot of times a bunch of elitest clowns who just want a slave to clean for them. I have had a few people who didnt want to hear what I have had, do have, or any other thing other than when can I come over to clean.

Now with that said ........The problem I see also with the article (again I think its a great article, but it just needs some tweaking)

is this ....it says you start out cleaning out non- venomous cages and stuff of that sorts for a few months.
how does that help in getting the hours needed for your VR permit.
in florida (as the article states and seems to head towards) you have to have 1000 hours of hands on training..........so again, how does cleaning out YOUR python cages help the person trying to get their VRC?
by that article you spend the better part of a year cleaning cages before you are even allowed in the room with a VR while its out of its cage.
and if thats what is happening then the "mentors are not only getting free labor but then are breaking the law by signing off on these people they are "training" and saying they have the 1000 hours but in reality they only have about 200-300 hours.

think about it.................and just so we are clear.....I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING, NO ADVICE NO TIPS, NOTHING I'm just stating the obvious....
If you want to help....help.....
when somebody asks a question please just answer the question.
I still have to find other "mentors" so I can finish my hours, but thats just it I just need hours, and I commend the guys I work with now as they dont just "sign off " on the paper work. I never stop learning, if you do, get out of the hobby. And 1 last thing when you are going to respond to a post ......read the entire thread so you have an idea of what the person you are reponding to has already said.......just a thought
 
Old 10-08-2011, 06:08 AM   #28
MiamiCracker
and when it comes to handling VRs.....I had an old eastern DB for about 6 years and never physicaly put my skin to her skin. hooks and tongs really work.
Thats my way of doing things......if you don't HAVE TO TOUCH THEM


DON'T TOUCH THEM...........

@HHMoore
A- sorry if I thought he wrote it
B- got the point but didnt say anything about that, so whats your point?
C- so what you are saying is if (RIP) Bill Haast was to ask for your guidance, you would make him clean out ball python cages for half a year? Think about it tis way.....do you think it would be smart of you to learn a little something about the person you may teach? or do you not care enough to find out if they may have some expierence? because that sounds like it doesn't matter what hots I have kept, (please refer to other post of mine) if you had a hot that I wanted to get but never had and asked you for "mentoring" with that specie than I would have to clean cages for you?....really?.......
and just to clear ....Florida law says you have to have 1000 hours with every specie you intend to work with.............
D- I guess you didnt read the whole thread and decided to put your 2 cents in with out knowing all the facts or what was already said.
I have the "good stuff".........I am progressing fine (thanks for being concerned)
and as for my attitude?......I dont think anything I have said is untrue.....as all I have stated was from personal expeirence.
please go back and READ the WHOLE thread ..........how this turned into a lesson for me to learn about hots and the risk i'm taking and my attitude is anybodys guess but whatever...........again to the original poster.......please reread my first comment and good luck
 
Old 10-08-2011, 07:36 AM   #29
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiCracker View Post
lesson
Phil, when people post here, they are giving the gift of their knowledge and experience.


When people post in a thread like this, it is as if they each left a gift by your doorstep- a piece of fruit, some cookies, except that these gifts are gifts of advice and perspective.

It would be in my opinion, crass to open your door and kick away a plate of fresh baked cookies because you did not like that flavor, and it is in my opinion crass for you to make some of the criticisms that you (at length) have chosen to make in this thread.

If the advice doesn't apply, just pass it by. It is no less a gift. These people took their time to send their thoughts to you.
 
Old 10-08-2011, 06:01 PM   #30
MiamiCracker
Um,.....What?
Really, gifts left at my door?
What in the world are you talking about?

Did I ask for advise? NO!

Did I ask for help? NO!

Did I for tips? NO!

Did I ask for food? well, maybe, do you have cookies?

All I have been saying is, The OP asked for tips on how to do something and instead of getting TIPS he got OPINIONS.

I HAVE ASKED FOR NOTHING.
except for cookies, do you have cookies.......dammit now I want cookies

If somebody asks for opinion, by all means give it.
I have all kinds of opinions but when some asks me how to do something I don't berate them with why they shouldn't or why I think they are stupid for asking.
If I have knowledge of how to do it I tell them.
but too many people want to interject their 2 cents, well IN MY OPINION you can keep it.

Now please lets go back to the original question............who has cookies
 

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