Inquiry David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons - FaunaClassifieds
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:55 PM   #1
David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons

i have a question regarding a deal that me and David had just completed. Last week dave sent me a message regarding two adult female dragons that i had posted on fauna. Dave and I had come to an agreement for 800$ shipped for both females that i had posted.
female #1 was a visual hypo trans dachiu female
female #2 was a visual trans poss. het hypo female

now last week i was supposed to ship these dragons to dave, but i had an insane week at work due to someone quitting out of the blue. i kept in frequent contact with dave the best i could with PM's and Emails although after a day or 2 he went from normal to a little pushy about the situation. after 2 days of me not being able to get the dragons out, which i never promised i could because of work but i told him i was doing the best that i could, he threw a fit and said his patience was up and demanded his money back. so i responded by telling him i was very sorry for the delay but there was no need to get so hasty after a day or 2 of me not being able to ship. i kept in contact with him everyday when i could. i work long over night shifts to begin with, but then having to cover this new shift because of the guy quitting it was even worse with my sleep schedule and work schedule.

so i then told david that 150% guarantee they would be going out on Monday which was the 17th (yesterday) for a delivery date of the 18th (today). so yesterday i took my dragons over to a friends house who is Tom from TND dragons because he said he had boxes and everything i would need to ship these animals out. so i get to toms and we soak the females in a warm bath, dry them off, and package them up, print the label and i go on my way.

here is where my Problem is with this situation. These female dragons were packaged together in a 16x12x9 box, both girls in snake bags (which david criticized saying i shouldn't use snake bags) both were alive healthy and ful of life when they went into the box one snake bag was tied up and the other one was secured by a zip tie. the box was filed with news papers to secure the animals, with 1 heat pack taped to the top (again which david said was unnecessary) it was in the low 40's last night when i shipped them out.

Today i wake up to find a text from Tom at TND saying contact dave because one of the females died. so after the shock of that i get online, check my fauna inbox, and my Email...and there was nothing from dave what so ever. so i thought it was a little weird i was finding out from Tom and not Dave.

a little time goes by and all the sudden an email pops up in my inbox. at this time it is now after 12pm...the dragons were signed for at 10 am. now after exchanging a email or 2 with dave we then talked on the phone. he tells me when he opened the box she was lying dead on top and that she seemed like she had just died shortly before he opened the box. his next statement was that he (dave) ran her under cold water to try and revive her...? now this could be me but if you take a warm animal who was in a box with a heat pack, and even if she was alive but not very responsive and run a cold blooded animal under cold water, the shock alone in that could kill the dragon. so he sent me a picture 2 hours after he finds this dead dragon, runs her under cold water, and then places her back on top of the news paper inside the box as if it was the second he opened the box. this all seems way to shady for me and isn't sitting very well with me. if he knew the dragon was dead when he opened the box then why would you take her out run her under cold water then place her back on top of the box to make it look as if he took it before he ran her under cold water???? wouldn't this void most peoples live arrival guarantee? wouldn't other people be weary of why you went through all of that before the buyer contacts the seller about a DOA? it all makes little sense to me especially running a cold blooded dragon under cold water to revive it, when it would only cause shock.

so here is where my question comes in, Dave has been in the business long enough to Know about situations like this.
1) why would you contact Tom about animals that you knew were mine.
2) why would it take you over 2 hours to contact me in an email to tell me about my animal being a DOA.
3) why run it under cold water to try and "revive it"
4) why stage the picture of the dead animal and try to make it seem like the original position when you just told me you ran it under cold water first?

Im not really sure what to do about this because i know if it was me, and 99% of other people in the world, if i spent 800$ on animals you can bank on it that if i open the box to a dead dragon, with in seconds i would be emailing the seller to let him know.

2 full hours is ample time for things to happen to a dragon, whether it be an accident or on purpose. in the picture there is no sign of any marks or damage to the dragon what so ever, she is in full color fat and laying there. he only sent me 1 picture, but he himself said she had no signs of injury or anything. now how would 2 100% healthy animals in the same box same exact packaging make it to the same place but one be dead? its just a little mind boggling to me.

so here is the advice im looking for, how would you go about this situation? If you sent someone 2 animals but he waited over 2 hours after arrival to let you know that one was a DOA.
Dave demanded i give him a 400$ refund by this afternoon for this animal, who was the cheaper of the 2 dragons he bought. asking for 50% of the money back for the cheaper of the 2 dragons seemed a little harsh to me. so what im saying is can everyone put in there opinion about how to go about a situation like this, because im very weary of why someone like him with his experience would wait over 2 hours to let me know about a DOA.

Thank you,
Anthony Prosper
Old 10-18-2011, 10:32 PM   #2
GHC Exotics
I believe that posting direct email and message conversations from all the parties mentioned above should be posted, and first and foremost contacting Dave about this post also... Thanks
Old 10-18-2011, 10:41 PM   #3
So cliffs.

-You sold a two dragons to Dave
-You shipped the dragons to Dave
-One dragon was DOA
-Your questioning what to do?

You refund the amount of the dead dragon.
Old 10-18-2011, 10:44 PM   #4
Originally Posted by Chrisw View Post
So cliffs.

-You sold a two dragons to Dave
-You shipped the dragons to Dave
-One dragon was DOA
-Your questioning what to do?

You refund the amount of the dead dragon.
i think his problem is what to do about the time lapse between the arrival and the report of the DOA and why bother to stage the picture like it had just happened. just from what i'm reading. i usually don't post in BOI but i caught this one at the start.
Old 10-18-2011, 10:49 PM   #5
GHC Exotics
I would just like to see some emails and messages to get a better idea on this situation and what was actually said. I have done business with David before, and have talked to him several times, and have had nothing but a pleasure dealing with him. I also just notified him on this post just so that we could get both sides of the story and situation covered.
Old 10-18-2011, 11:00 PM   #6
im not attacking Dave in anyway, we actually had a calm conversation around 12:30-1:00 this afternoon when he called me. what im questioning is that he waited 2 hours to contact me about it like scubasteve posted. i have looked at other breeders who are in the top header of the bearded dragon section and there are a few who have a detailed DOA Section which states must be contacted immediately and within 2 hours of a doa or its its not like im positing about some off the wall subject in this case. Rainbow bearded dragons was one of the sites which stated this....2 hours is no where near an immediate notification of a DOA. as far as emails im not sure what you want to see, your already voicing how you feel about dave being a great guy so it seems as if your a little biased in the situation at hand as is.
Old 10-18-2011, 11:06 PM   #7
Ok simple enough. You are not these other breeders, did you tell Dave that you wont stand behind LAG if he doesnt contact you within a certain time frame?

Plenty of reasons why you were not contacted before 2 hours. Maybe the fact that he tried to revive the dragon?
Old 10-18-2011, 11:13 PM   #8
GHC Exotics
Not biased at all, if something wrong was done on either side Im interested in seeing what was done to cause the concern. Though emails and messages help show that you did your part in contacting him and he did his part in contacting you also. Anyone can post that they had a bad transaction with someone, and claim that they did something, so the photos and emails would only help solidify your raise of concern toward his actions. This would also help show that you had contacted him about why he did what he did, but again, this was just to help show that you did your part, emails and photos are a general thing to post in these types of threads.
Old 10-18-2011, 11:17 PM   #9
ok so every pm and email ? and he only sent me one picture of the dragon which came in my inbox 2 hours after delivery along with his first attempt at notifying me of the dragon.
Old 10-18-2011, 11:17 PM   #10
Wow Anthony. I really cannot believe that after our long conversation this afternoon around 2:00 that you would be bringing this up here. Game on my friend and started it!

I do not even know where to begin in addressing these accusations. Just more drama in the world of bearded dragons...go figure.

Let me start by saying that I was home when I received two boxes from the UPS delivery guy and another one from FedEx shortly after the UPS delivery. I was on a conference call and brought all of the boxes into my office. I do not know the exact amount of time that passed before the call ended but when it did end, I began opening boxes. I was confused when I saw that I had a box from Tom Constance as I had not ordered anything from Tom. In fact, I was starting to get frustrated as Anthony had promised me that the dragons would get here on Tuesday. Now understand that he had also promised me that they would get here last Wed., then Thursday, and then Friday. I took three 1/2 days off work to be here for the deliveries that never came. In fact on Friday, I was so fed up with all of the delays, I just wanted to cancel the transaction all together. Anthony then got all frustrated saying I was being impatient and he had things come up at work. I can understand issues coming up out of ones control, we have all been there. But three days in a row? So, last night, I email him to ask for the tracking information. No response. Now, out of the blue I get a box from Tom. Didn't make any sense. By the way, Anthony tells me today that he never received an email from me asking about tracking information.

Do you have the tracking information? I took another 1/2 day off work to be here for these dragons. Hope they are on their way.


On 10/13/2011 6:39 PM, anthony prosper wrote:
> That is fine and i appreciate you doing this. its already lined up for them to go out monday weather its me or her, they will be going out for Tuesday delivery. thank you again David i really appreciate you working with me on this.
> From: David Freeman <>
> To: anthony prosper <>
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 6:36 PM
> Subject: Re: hey
> Fine, send them for Tuesday morning arrival but this is my last day staying at home waiting on a package from you.
> On 10/13/2011 6:26 PM, anthony prosper wrote:
>> Also i jsut read the PM between me and you regarding my day off. it is " tomorrow is supposed to be my day off and im hoping and praying it stays that way so you can have a Friday morning delivery.".... i never guaranteed my day off was going to happen. how could i promise you i was off if i didn't know yet. which is why i sent that to you saying i was hoping and praying i was going to have off. which i did not have off and had to go into work again on my day off. i just wanted to show you that PM because i told you i was hoping to have off, not that i did have off. but again i can 100% see your side of it and the frustration you have, as well as i have i never wanted to make a customer unhappy. but i have been in touch doing the best i can for you.
>> From: David Freeman <>
>> To: anthony prosper <>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 5:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: hey
>> Anthony,
>> Well, unfortunately, my patience has worn out. You are just now communicating with me to tell me they didn't go out today as you said they would yesterday afternoon? I have had to stay home in the morning now for three days ( I took tomorrow morning off after you told me you had the day off today and the dragons would be shipped today for tomorrow morning arrival). I have a real job too and it has nothing to do with bearded dragons. Please refund me my money as I do not have time for all of this.
>> Thanks,
>> David
>> On 10/13/2011 5:32 PM, anthony prosper wrote:
>>> Ok so i have my new scheduale for work, and im 13-14 hour shifts over night. my fiance however is off sundays and mondays, so she said she can ship the girls out on monday so you should have them by 10 am or 12pm tuesday morning. i tried getting a day off but i work armed security for a private security company so we do private security detail. so when one guy quits we have to figure out whos taking his shifts. is a Tuesday arrival for 100% guarentee to not be delayed again ok with you? thank you so much for being patient with me i never saw this situation coming with work, total blindside.

So as you can see from the email trail, I think I was being as patient as anyone would be in a situation like this. I do not find out until 5:32 on Friday afternoon that the dragons didn't make it out Thursday evening. In my mind that was strike 3 and I wanted out. BUT, I knew he was in a financial crunch so I stick with him. Plus, I wanted these dragons.

So that brings us to today. I open the box and could not believe it. A dragon laying there on the top of the packing material dead. A gorgeous dragon. Sickening. I could not believe someone would put a dragon in a box loose like that. Surely not. Still confused as to why Tom sent them, I immediately call him and got him live. He explains what happened. I get a sick feeling about how this is going to go down. Here is a seller using someone else to do the shipping for him and the dragon dies during shipment. I can see a lot of finger pointing already. I do not have Anthony's info and Tom agrees to get in touch with him for me. I told him I needed to hear from him ASAP.

There is more to are some pics that I took immediately after getting off the phone with Tom. The dragon had not been moved at this point.
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