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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post.

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Old 05-05-2012, 04:31 PM   #91
deborahbroadus
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdogg View Post
I just don't want to see Brandon be said a Bad guy for having got an animal and it died. Tom nor Brandon are bad people and both have very healthy animals. And about the whole "Threat thing" everyone does that. And basically that is just warning them that they will make a BOI post as everyone who post here should NOTIFY who they are posting about of the thread they start.
Everyone does NOT do that. His "threat" can be viewed as an attempt at manipulating the issue by putting the seller under duress.

It is neither a wise, nor a mature move to make when trying to work out an issue. The best strategy (imo) is either do it (make the BG thread), and then inform the other party or keep quiet if you have no intention of making such a thread.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 04:31 PM   #92
DaveyFig
If Brandon's threat of coming here was not a threat, what do you think he would have been saying if he came here? I doubt he would have been singing praises. We will never know, but I bet it wasn't a good guy post, and would have gotten much dirtier when Xavier didn't bend over.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 04:53 PM   #93
bullies&balls
You ALL should really stop playing CSI. It makes me laugh at some of the comments. Sorry, but if the animal WAS QT and put into breeding program NEXT season, it is MOST likely that said animal would have died the same way. As everyonme loves to throw around MOST keepers and MOST breeders do this and that, MOST old timers KNOW that once an animal gets ill, the chance for a repeat illness is GREATLY increased and many feel the animal NEVER truely shakes the illness. YES, breeding is stressful on an animal and certain risk have to be put on the buyers shoulders, but regardless, a HEALTHY animal does NOT die in 10 (TEN) days PERIOD !!!!! disect this all you want, ask who this deal invloves all you want and blame it on poor QT practices all you want. the snake DIED in 10 days !!!!
 
Old 05-05-2012, 05:39 PM   #94
Fangthane
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls
Sorry, but if the animal WAS QT and put into breeding program NEXT season, it is MOST likely that said animal would have died the same way.
Do you understand the concept of a cumulative effect? Going directly from shipping to breeding compounds the initial stress greatly. There was no acclimation period whatsoever. I believe, as well as many others, that the exact opposite of your statement is more logical and likely to be the reality of the situation. If QT was practiced, there's an extremely high likelihood that the animal would still be alive. Both right now, and next breeding season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls
MOST old timers KNOW that once an animal gets ill, the chance for a repeat illness is GREATLY increased and many feel the animal NEVER truely shakes the illness
Feel free to point out ANY evidence that shows there was a pre-existing illness. According to what Google tells me, the most serious issues shown in the vet report can be laid squarely at the feet of the toxins produced from the Salmonella infection. An active INFECTION, not the mere fact that Salmonella was present at all.

There's nothing to show that the ulcers were there before the snake was shipped. Based on what evidence we have here, the Salmonella (which harmlessly resides in the GI tracts of MANY reptiles) infected the ulcers that were found. Whether the ulcers came first, and the Salmonella took advantage of the opening, or whether the weakened immune system, that the stress caused, allowed the Salmonella to actually cause the ulcers, it still seems to boil down to one thing: stress-induced illness.

Out of all parties involved, who's freely admitted to putting it in the most stressful situations..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls
disect this all you want, ask who this deal invloves all you want and blame it on poor QT practices all you want. the snake DIED in 10 days !!!!
You're doing nothing more than harping on the effect in order to try to produce an emotional response that'll cloud the real issue: The most likely cause. You're going out of your way to treat the cause in the most dismissive manner possible. Let's all get worked up over the fact that it died quickly and not really examine exactly why it happened.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #95
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls View Post
if the animal WAS QT and put into breeding program NEXT season, it is MOST likely that said animal would have died the same way.
This is an old trick. The person making a claim, with no proof at all, posits his view of the circumstances as a given.

It is not a given, not halfway a given, this is wholly what this person would have us believe.

Nice try though.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 06:02 PM   #96
DesertRat73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexPredatorBoids View Post
You're going out of your way to treat the cause in the most dismissive manner possible. Let's all get worked up over the fact that it died quickly and not really examine exactly why it happened.
It's amazing how popular this tactic is these days. Anything to keep people from thinking about an issue rationally. Reminds me of a political campaign.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 07:11 PM   #97
bullies&balls
THIS animal was ALREADY breeding for the OP. Then shipped, then bred again. So you still think ALL this happend in 10 days from the time the animal arrived ?? You go on thinking that. And to answer your question, EXPERINCE tells me about my statement with sick animals and reoccuring illness when put into stressful situations.

Lucille, you have chimed in several times ont his thread and what concrete evidence have you brought to the table. YOU can say for sure 100% that if QT was done to YOUR standards this animal would be alive today ? I DON'T think so. You statements have as much validity as mine as best...
 
Old 05-05-2012, 07:50 PM   #98
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls View Post
YOU can say for sure 100% that if QT was done to YOUR standards this animal would be alive today ?
That is another sad old trick. I did not make that claim at all. I am saying (as many have said) that there is not concrete evidence the critter arrived sick, and that QT is basic husbandry and was ignored.
 
Old 05-05-2012, 07:56 PM   #99
Ashendust54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullies&balls View Post
Lucille, you have chimed in several times ont his thread and what concrete evidence have you brought to the table. YOU can say for sure 100% that if QT was done to YOUR standards this animal would be alive today ? I DON'T think so. You statements have as much validity as mine as best...
Its not a question of standards, its the fact it wasnt done in the first place!
 
Old 05-05-2012, 08:34 PM   #100
Mike41793
Wow took me awhile to get through this whole thread!
My thought process on the whole thing is this:
Im almost positive ulcers dont develop in just 9 days. Ulcers are caused by bacteria and can slowly develop in the lining of the stomach for years. So with that said i would say the ulcers were a pre-existing condition that had developed in xaviers care. The problem is even though they were developing in the snake there was no way for him to know that. The snake wasnt stressed so the ulcers didnt all the sudden get realy bad. When brandon/tom received the snake and put it to the females right away i think the stress of the shipping, combined with the stress of the females, caused the snake a ton of immediate stress and caused the ulcers to flare up. This is why the snake didnt eat for brandon/tom. Once the ulcers flared up it allowed the salmonella in the snakes stomach to get into the tisssue and like the vet said i beliee, that is what killed it.
With all that said i think both parties are equally NOT at fault. Yes xavier had a sick snake, but he didnt know it. Yes tom didnt QT but even if he had the snake may have eventually died bc of the ulcers anyways. If it were me personally, i would return 1 of brandon/toms snakes. I would feel bad the snake died due to unknown, pre-existing conditions. I would pick which one i liked better lol, and then offer to send them the other one back. Xavier, technically, does not have to though imo.
 

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