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Old 05-12-2004, 10:49 PM   #111
Mustangrde1
Chriss. Thank you for posting and you have come a very long way since i first started talking to you and it shows. You are one who as an adult will make this hobby better.

Again thanks for posting I think its important for minors to be able to hear it from their piers. Now gimme your pallidas
 
Old 05-12-2004, 10:55 PM   #112
Seamus Haley
There are people who consider hybridization to be an even worse offense than creating voided snakes.

While I see venomoids as being nothing but negative, the only animal affected is the one who actually undergoes the procedure.

Hybrids are a potential danger to every single captive animal of either parent species.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 11:10 PM   #113
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley
There are people who consider hybridization to be an even worse offense than creating voided snakes.
I've given a lot of thought to the matter, and come to my own ethical decisions regarding "custom breeding" including hybridization, breeding for color and pattern, etc.

My feeling is that *all* captive bred snakes are genetically different to some degree from the animals that would have survived in the wild. Natural selection doesn't happen when you have a litter of babies that you separate and feed individually instead of letting them fend for themselves in the outdoors or wrestle with each other to see who gets to eat their siblings. Also it's a good bet that the parents of these snakes were selected deliberately by the hobbyist for things other than fitness to survive in the wild.

Any captive bred snake released into the wild is very bad news, for more reasons than just genetics. It's irresponsible to do this. If you plan to do any breeding for wild release, the parents should be wild caught and very strictly quarantined from any other captive snakes.

Funny genetics floating around in the captive gene pool is a potential threat to the long term survival of a species in captivity, especially if this animal becomes rare or extinct in the wild and can no longer be wild caught. If you are irresponsible with your captive bred animals, if you sell randomly to the highest bidder, you can make quite a mess.


Quote:
While I see venomoids as being nothing but negative, the only animal affected is the one who actually undergoes the procedure.

Hybrids are a potential danger to every single captive animal of either parent species.
The venomoid procedure involves causing a snake pain and damage. No animal suffering is involved in simply existing as a hybrid.

Irresponsibly distributed hybrids are a danger to the captive gene pool. But I think you know my policies well enough to figure out that nothing I breed is likely to end up on the open market, even if it's just an ordinary copperhead.

In particular if I ever produced any hybrids, their distribution would be *extremely* limited, and I would be keeping close tabs on them. They would not be entering the common gene pool and their offspring would certainly not be presented to the general public as belonging to either species.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 12:12 AM   #114
snakekid13
I agree with Tanith once again venamoids have been basically tortured. Hybridalization is not if done right and if you keep them in captivity cause if not it could mess a bunch of things up. But you never know hybrids are becoming more and more popular. I would even maybe want to try to make a hybrid just for <font color=red>[**censored**]</font>s and giggles it would be interesting to me what it came out as. I've wondered if it was possible to cross breed a rosy boa to a kenyan sand i think that would be neat but i still have much more studying before that becomes a more serious thing since Im not sure if the care and size range is similar enough. Well ill end my rambling. Thanks and happy herping.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 12:57 AM   #115
snakekid13
Scott i have a question who was your trainer in venomous reptiles just curious? I never knew it required that much work for venomous i still want to follow through and get my license i dont want to be a slacker and not even bother about training thats not fair to the snakes anyways your article was really good.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 01:26 AM   #116
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Irresponsibly distributed hybrids are a danger to the captive gene pool. But I think you know my policies well enough to figure out that nothing I breed is likely to end up on the open market, even if it's just an ordinary copperhead.
Can you say the same for whoever you might be inclined to sell it to?

How about anyone THEY decide to sell offspring THEY produce to?

Creamcicle corns are a good example of genes ending up loose in the general population... They were originally created by crossing in emoryi which had the erythin values which were desired. They were never properly represented to the general population, many of whom cross "this here snake with this here other snake cause they's all I gots" with little or no regard for the genetics of any given animal... The offspring of which are sold off again, to neighbors or friends or wholesalers... the animals are further embedded into the population...

I'm currently uncertain if it's even possible to obtain verified pure corns without catching them yourself. Certainly any animal which isn't from a handful of well known breeders is chancey.

How long do you think it'll be until the same thing happens with "Jungle Corns"?

Any captive breeding removes certain elements of natural selection, with regards to both which animals survive and which ones are capable of getting any given female's attention (or holding her down)- I really don't think it's much of an excuse for throwing every single shred of ethical forethought out the window and creating true abominations against nature. There are behavioral isolating mechanisms as well as physiological ones- just because two animals CAN produce fertile offspring doesn't mean they WOULD or SHOULD.

Are you really that bored with every beautiful aspect of the two species... the appearance, the behavior, the adaptations to environment and the way they have fully encompassed their biological niches... that you need to go Frankenstein (That's Frahnk-en-shhhhhteen) solely for your own amusement?
 
Old 05-13-2004, 02:27 AM   #117
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Can you say the same for whoever you might be inclined to sell it to?
If I could not, then I would not sell, give or trade the snake to that person.

I think that labelling a hybrid an "abomination against nature" is a bit much. Yes, there are legitimate issues and concerns which deserve careful attention. No, I don't consider it to be abusive or hurtful to the animals if they are kept responsibly.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 09:33 AM   #118
Mustangrde1
Eric.
As to who my teachers were." Lets say still are" as I believe there is no time to ever stop learning. And that is simple to answer EVERY KEEPER is my teacher you can learn something be it good or bad from them all. I have loved herps since I was a kid and like most boys always was bringing one home. It has been a lifetime of learning and a lifetime still of learning.

My first teacher was myself Stupid as it was I kept a Mojave and Southern Pacific when i lived in cali along with some westerns from time to time. Luckily and i do mean luckily i wasnt bitten. I was a deffinate candidate for the Darwin Award several times.

When i Moved to FL I had to get permit and Ray Hunter trained me here for my VRL Permit. In learning with Ray I saw many things i did wrong and was exposed to many of the worlds venomous snakes and how to deal with them safely. Now here is my standard disclaimer. Anyone thats seen Ray's sight might get the wrong impression of him being dangerous. Fact he is extremely safe and really hammers in key points and will never allow anyone to work with or near him that does dangerous acts. I guess the biggest reason I yell about getting trained and waiting till your 18 is because I relised after training how damn lucky i was not to have been bit.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 05:07 PM   #119
snakekid13
Seamus i think your getting a little carried away with the hybrid thing and i also feel i worded what i meant wrong with the rosy and kenyan sand boas. I wouldnt breed them just for my amusement but to learn about it. Their is much controversy over hybridization and i havent quite figured out whether im against or with it im still thinking about it. And with the hybrids being worse then venomoids i dont agree with that but everyone is based to their own opinions. Thanks and happy herping!
 
Old 05-13-2004, 09:26 PM   #120
snakekid13
amazon
 

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