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Old 05-09-2004, 07:45 PM   #21
Copperheadman
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley
I'm going to have to dissent from some of the views espoused on this thread...

While I feel that working with multiple species, of any kind, is a great way to increase the knowledge and experience of a keeper, I truly feel that there is no non-venomous species which can act as a substitute when looking at potentially keeping a hot. Sure, there are species which can be used to learn basic restraint techniques and every species kept gives a certain indefinable measure of competence to a herper but...

The best "first hot" is one that belongs to someone else. Locating a suitable individual who already keeps venomous species and volunteering to clean cages and fill water bowls in exchange for a hands on education about the animals is the ONLY way to go. From there, the best species for any given individual to keep is one that is not considered capable of a lethal envenomation and that they personally feel comfortable working with. I learned (meaning had pounded into my head) handling techniques from my father, who kept crotalids and thus I personally feel way more comfortable hooking a massive, agressive atrox than I do handling just about ANY elapid (I also grew up with corals, but the behavior of a coral is vastly different than the behavior of a cobra or mamba) because those are the species I "leanred" on.


Youa re 100 percent correct there Seamus.The BEST way to learn hots is through someone else..in other words find someone that is willing and has the experience to teach you how to handle. I,like Mr. Haley am more than comfortable hooking a big Timber,but really shy away when it comes to tonging a cobra,those thing are to damned unpredictable. Very well written Seamus...but what else should we expect from you!!!
 
Old 05-09-2004, 08:53 PM   #22
snakekid13
i dont know of anyone who keeps hots close were i live is their another alternative to this it will greatly be appreciated. thanks
 
Old 05-10-2004, 04:50 PM   #23
Irwin
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley




The best "first hot" is one that belongs to someone else. Locating a suitable individual who already keeps venomous species and volunteering to clean cages and fill water bowls in exchange for a hands on education about the animals is the ONLY way to go.
Yes, I agree, but some people,like me, don't know any other people that deal in hots, thus the reason i got an usually non agro, non lethal copperhead.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 05:54 PM   #24
Seamus Haley
Quote:
Yes, I agree, but some people,like me, don't know any other people that deal in hots, thus the reason i got an usually non agro, non lethal copperhead.
If there's nobody "near" you to learn from it means one of three things...

1) Venomous snakes are illegal to own. Virginia the state I found mixed reports, most stated that venomous animals were legal, some stated that non-native venomous species required a state permit. There were MANY counties, cities and towns within the state where venomous reptiles were 100% across the boards not even a permit system illegal to own. Something to consider to be certain.

2) You didn't really look. If venomous snakes are legal in an area, you WILL find venomous keepers. Not having one next door is not a justified reason to skip training with an experienced individual just because the nearest one is a thirty minute bus ride (or more) away.

3) The local venomous keepers were unwilling to allow you to train under them. I would personally NEVER let a fourteen year old anywhere near my hots unless it was my own kid. "Nobody will teach me because they don't think it's safe or responsible." is not an appropriate excuse for skipping it entirely and getting an animal anyway.

Frankly the idea of an untrained fourteen year old owning dangerously venomous (if not commonly lethal) animals sickens me to the core. If the animal belongs to a parent who is it's primary caretaker, that's fine and good but you need to make this clear when you discuss the animal. If your parents know less about reptiles than you do, or you are allowed unsupervised handling of the animal and THEY do not have prior experience, then there is a serious problem here.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 06:01 PM   #25
Seamus Haley
Forgot to add in the last post...

The fact you chose the login name "Irwin" is frankly extremely disturbing as well.

A fourteen year old kid with no training who thinks that fat-headed australian simpleton is in ANY way, shape or form a worthwhile or respectable keeper/handler/herpetologist is the very last person that I, or many other venomous keepers, want owning ANY hot.

When you get bit... and you will get bit... and it will make the news... life just gets harder for the people who took the time and put in the effort to own these animals in a manner which is legal, responsible and safe for both the animals and the keepers. As Tanith says, handling venomous snakes is not an impossibility, nor does it really deserve *quite* the mystique that has formed up around it but ignorant individuals have no business being placed into a position of responsibility like this.

I'm trying very hard to maintain a post that isn't punctuated by bursts of profanity and rage but... your attitude really does make me outright angry.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 06:26 PM   #26
Mustangrde1
I have to agree with Seamus on this. In as much as there is no substitute for training with an EXPERIENCED keeper of the species in which you wish to work with. Also Minors keeping hots disturbs me not in as much their mentality though that does play in to it. But in fact if they are bitten or a friend is bitten the parents of the minor are liable for damages. Let us not forget the implications this will have if the Media gets a hold of such a story" HEADLINE" Minor Child Bitten by Pet Snake.

As a Parent I could not condone my child keeping a venomous reptile until I felt they had the maturity both in age and accountability for the aftermath of a bite. Also an important thing to remember in this age of big brother watching if a child was to get bit Child Services could make the parents life a living hell. Just not a good idea despite how well intent or mature the minor is. I do know of several minors who I would conceder excellent keepers but I still worry about the what if.

As for not being able to find a trainer. There are many good websites out there that have hot keepers perhaps asking one on those sites for a keeper to train you and hold your animals under their care till you no longer a minor is a good idea. You would still be able to work with them and more importantly learn proper handling skills.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 06:35 PM   #27
Irwin
My attitude? I simply stated that no one that i can find keeps hots, and thats the reason that i got a copperhead, something that any if it did bite me, would not need medical assistance. Making a personal attack on a 14 year old, in my book, isn't very " grown up." In Va every hot is legal except for crotalus horridus and the brown tree snake. And, before you made your little personal attack, i never said i wasn't still looking for a trainer. In my opinion its the people, like you, that won't even consider the thoughts of young people, thats makes the real venomous keeper a dying breed. More and more people are getting bit because the real herpers won't train them, only the much less experienced ones. Thus when the "trainer" passes them, they aren't really ready. It probably means nothing to you, but before i really respected you, and your views, but after the personal attack, and saying that if you could you would curse me, the respect is gone, and is never coming back.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 06:50 PM   #28
Seamus Haley
Quote:
i got a copperhead, something that any if it did bite me, would not need medical assistance
That statement, right there, fully justifies my opinion that you should not have this animal.

Quote:
In Va every hot is legal except for crotalus horridus and the brown tree snake.
Individual counties, cities and towns can have their own laws which are more restrictive than those of the state. In searching for Virginia venomous laws I came across quite a few counties where venomous animals were across the board illegal to own for private use. Educational use is something else, but that requires a good number of additional permits, tax exempt status, AZA membership and the like.

Quote:
In my opinion its the people, like you, that won't even consider the thoughts of young people, thats makes the real venomous keeper a dying breed. More and more people are getting bit because the real herpers won't train them, only the much less experienced ones.
I fully respect the views and opinions of young people. Some of the best herpers I know, the quickest, brightest and those with the most inate skill are still minors. That doesn't mean I want them owning venomous snakes. The good ones... young or old... realize that there are additional responsibiltiies inherent in owning an animal which is considered by the general voting public to be dangerous and none of the minors who I do respect would consider owning one until they are adults because THEY know the media feeding frenzy an envenomation would result in.

Quote:
It probably means nothing to you, but before i really respected you, and your views, but after the personal attack, and saying that if you could you would curse me, the respect is gone, and is never coming back.
I am sorry you feel that way. I didn't want to swear AT you, simply that your statements made me want to swear. Which I did... quite loudly, at the top of my lungs, in my own home. I do value the opinions of other people, to a point... If you have lost respect for me, it gives me a reason to pause for a moment or two and consider MY approach to the situation. I will not alter my viewpoints or opinions specifically because I'm saying something that you don't want to hear... I *might* modify my approach slightly.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 07:27 PM   #29
snakegetters
My personal feeling is that young venomous keepers who have the full support of their parents should be encouraged. As someone who regularly snuck sidewinders in mayonnaise jars under my bed as a little girl, I can testify that you cannot keep venomous snakes out of the hands of any kid who lives anywhere near them and really wants them. Try to take one snake away and they'll go out to the woodpile and catch another, and hide it better this time.

You can try to make sure that they are keeping with the knowledge and support of their parents, using secure housing and appropriate tools. You can encourage them to keep non lethal species and to get a lot of experience with nonvenomous snakes first. You can't totally stop them or deny them, and if you try, it's likely to have bad consequences (like sidewinders in jars under beds).

Another thing you can't do is to tell parents how to raise their kids. If this kid's parents say yes, you may keep a copperhead, it isn't my place to say that they can't give that permission to their own child. Again, all you can do is educate and encourage good safety standards. "Just say no" is a philosophy that doesn't work in the real world.

Yes, learning from other keepers is a good idea. It's not always possible or feasible, but it's a good idea. I am glad to help and educate young herpers and their parents together. I would not let a minor anywhere near my collection unsupervised, but with their parents or legal guardians they are welcome.
 
Old 05-10-2004, 07:31 PM   #30
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally posted by Irwin I simply stated that no one that i can find keeps hots, and thats the reason that i got a copperhead, something that any if it did bite me, would not need medical assistance.
1. Try harder. There are lots of hot keepers in Virginia.

2. If you are bitten by a copperhead and it is not a dry bite, if there are symptoms and swelling, you are definitely going to need medical assistance.

I agree with Sean that your statement implying otherwise does not demonstrate appropriate knowledge or responsibility for a venomous keeper.
 

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