Bad Guy Heronboy, Jereme James, America's Finest Balls

Jereme James (Heronboy) kept my $4,500 and threatened to donate, or already donated, the snakes I bought from him to an auction.

Although I've already posted a thread about Jereme James (Heronboy) of America's Finest Balls, that is now 13 pages long with over 7,300 views, I believe this condensed version is important for Fauna's BOI because there are people who are spending money with Jereme James (Heronboy) who have a right to know how he treats some of his customers.

In short, I purchased two adult snakes from Jereme James (Heronboy, America's Finest Balls) for $4,500. They were shipped to me from California on Monday, September 23, 2013 and the box was scanned in at the FedEx hub in Memphis, TN at 12:18 am on Tuesday, September 24, 2013, the day they were scheduled to arrive to my hub in Alabama. More than a week passed, with no snakes being delivered to me or a refund being issued, before I learned that the snakes I was supposed to receive were in a rescue facility in Arkansas where they stayed for about two weeks before being shipped back to Jereme on October 7th.

After repeated attempts to get a refund of my $4,500 from Jereme James (Heronboy), for snakes I never received, Jereme summed up his take on the matter with this comment, "Animals were mine, you purchased them, I delivered them to a carrier at which point relinquishing ownership of the animals" (page 3).

If that faulty logic wasn't alarming enough, Jereme left me with this ultimatum "I am extending the clock to begin today affording you 14 days to accept your property or it will be deemed abandoned at which point it will be donated to the upcoming USARK auction" (page 3).

I know some people have had a positive experience with him and I think that's great…I even took my chances to do business with him. So, please know that I am not asking for anyone to pick sides here, this isn't about a debate for me. I simply want to share my personal experience with Jereme James (Heronboy) who, I believe, cares more about winning some contest of wills than he does about taking care of his customers.

*The other thread includes all of the email correspondence that took place between Jereme James (Heronboy) and me; documenting the timeline of events, my repeated requests for a refund and, perhaps most importantly, Jereme James' attitude about taking my money and expressing, publicly, that this is a winning situation for him (page 7). I have also embedded links in this post to specific pages where I reference anything said by Jereme and linked the word "thread" to the original post I've referenced.

I don't blame Jereme James (Heronboy) for losing the shipment, but, his actions and choices, while the snakes were missing and since they were recovered from the rescue facility (that are available on a public forum, for everyone to see), have left me comfortable about bringing anything into my collection that may came from him.

Bottom line- the animals I purchased from Jereme James (Heronboy) were shipped back to him from the rescue facility, yet Jereme James has kept my $4,500.
How anyone could justify keeping another person's money like this is beyond me.

I can say this - if Jereme James (Heronboy) is selling snakes here on Fauna, then he's making money and if he's making money then he should be able to pay me back for the snakes I never received.

Thanks,
John Woolard

*The other thread includes all of the email correspondence that took place between Jereme James (Heronboy) and me; documenting the timeline of events, my repeated requests for a refund and, perhaps most importantly, Jereme James' attitude about taking my money and expressing, publicly, that this is a winning situation for him

Click to expand...

Might as well repost the info here - your links don't work...besides, if the intent was to provide a condensed version, linking to the long thread doesn't do the trick (...not to mention that threads on other sites don't really fly on the BOI, because most of the posts would be considered anonymous third party quotation).

Thanks for letting me know the links were off, Harald. Here is the link to the thread and below is the email correspondence between Jereme James (Heronboy) and me.
http://www..net/reptile-business-inquiries/48624-not-americas-finest-moment.html

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From: jereme james <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Oct 02, 2013 9:34 pm
To: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
John,

Sorry to have to send a email however, it really seems that are availability to talk at the same time has not been limited the past few days. I had a long conversation with Jenna today ( she is the person caring for your ball pythons) in regards to the two animals I sent. Unfortunately, the conversation left me with more questions than answers on how the ended up with her and feel its better not to speculate on how they arrived but, to be happy their ok. That being said I have no doubt that she is an honest person with great knowledge on keeping ball pythons. She informed me that they are being quarantined, at proper temps. and offered clean water. She also said that their health appeared to be good after they "settled in" .

After thought and hearing your concerns on the general wellbeing of the animals I would prefer the animals sent back to me so I can quarantine them, feed them and make sure there in the same condition as they were on 9-23-2013. I assume this should take no more than two weeks at which point I would send them back to you. In the event that you would prefer me to send them directly to you I will ship to you without hesitation. However, would be hard to offer same guarantee on shipping and wellbeing without packing, seeing and caring for prior to you receiving them. Again it is my attention to make sure you are happy with whatever is decided and I appreciate your understanding and patients.

Thank You,
Jereme James




From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Oct 03, 2013 11:12 am
To: "jereme james" <[email protected]>
Thank you for the email, Jereme.
I hear what you're saying - I tried calling you back several times yesterday after you'd tried to reach me and it was phone tag at its best (or maybe worst - lol).

I spoke to Robyn (SYR) at length yesterday also and, while I'm happy the snakes are okay, I'm still baffled by the whole thing. Robyn said there was nothing in the box that could link the animals to you or to me - which seemed off. Everything in this whole, sad situation, is unfortunate. As I expressed to you yesterday, Jereme, my main concern now is that the snakes are, for lack of better terms, tainted. I got advice from a couple of people, including a veterinarian, and the conclusion that I've come to is that I would like to have the snakes shipped to you and request a refund. I certainly did not want to do that, but I can't risk my collection or males that would be with these females after they were MIA for a week and then to learn they were at an animal rescue. If the circumstances were more simple I could see adding the snakes into my collection after a short duration, but not with things as they are now. Maybe a year from now, if these girls are doing well, we can certainly talk more about me purchasing them from you then, but, as it stands now, I will regretfully need to ask that you take the animals back into your possession and that you please issue me a refund.
Again, I'm sorry this whole ordeal happened and I hope it has in no way influenced our working relationship and future dealings. You produce some great animals and I wouldn't hesitate to business with you (that's why I felt comfortable in the beginning).

I wish you the best and look forward to talking with you more soon.
John

* If you would be willing to deposit the money into my Wells Fargo account there, that would be ideal. My account number is XXXXXXXXXX

There are 2 locations in Long Beach
1) 111 W OCEAN BLVD STE 100
LONG BEACH, CA, 90802
Phone: 562-901-4000

2) 251 E WILLOW ST STE A
LONG BEACH, CA, 90806
Phone: 562-981-5880




From: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Oct 03, 2013 8:36 pm
To: "<[email protected]>" <[email protected]>
I do not want you think I am avoiding thou. I just need a minute to figure out how to make this unfortunate situation amicable.

Thank You,
Jereme James




From: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
Date: October 4, 2013 at 12:13:22 PM CDT
To: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: update

Jereme,
I appreciate you letting me know that you weren't ignoring me, but I really think we need to wrap this up. I've been waiting to receive my snakes since September 24th and here it is October 4th.
I'm glad the snakes are okay and that they will be back in your possession, but I honestly don't think there is anything else left to figure out.
I hate that all of this happens as well, and I could have really used these girls, but now I'm ready to move on.
Thanks,
John




From: jereme james <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 04, 2013 1:18 pm
To: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
John,

I understand your position clearly. You did nothing wrong, paid as promised, and had no control or blame on the unfortunate circumstances fed-ex created. However, I do not agree that either party should hold the full burden of these circumstances fed-ex created. I as the seller did everything correctly as yourself the buyer. On good faith I am willing to work with you however, am not willing to agree on the terms you proposed. Nor would I expect you or any other seller to do the same if the roles were switched and I was the buyer.

John these are your animals and became your animals upon agreement of terms prior to shipping. However, I am willing to take all reasonable steps to work with you in hopes to created an on going business relationship with you. I am up for ideas and suggested and have came up with the following suggestions.

1) I keep, feed, and care for the animals until you feel comfortable receiving them and or I report that they are in a proper health condition.
2) I keep feed, and care for the animals until I feel that there safe and clean at which point I sell them. All monies collected up to original purchase price will be returned to you upon collection minus new shipping cost.
3) The animals are shipped to you directly from the animal rescue. If this option is chosen I cannot offer my guarantee on the animals condition


Again these are only suggestions and I am completely open to your input. I humbly plea with you to consider such options and allow me to work this out with you.




From: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, Oct 05, 2013 9:48 am
To: "jereme james" [email protected]
Jereme,
I don't think you can suggest that taking the animals back into your possession is a burden, especially after saying how difficult it was to sell them. I suppose the thing that is most upsetting to me in this is that the onus is on me because I chose to buy snakes from you. I don't expect all breeders to do things the way I do, but I have learned over the years that my integrity and maintaining great relationships with my customers are my top priorities. For the first time ever since breeding any snakes, I had one die after a month at a customer's place (not a clue why -doesn't add up), but instead of hassling him, I am making it right with him. Similarly, my best friend shipped $10,000 worth of snakes to a customer last year and they were DOA. He too made it right even though it cost him a lot of wasted money on insurance and snakes.
It is pretty well accepted in the industry that the shipper assumes responsibility for the animals and since there was an apparent issue with the labeling of the package then it seems even more so in this case. For me it's like this...I bought snakes from you, AFB, and they are no longer snakes from you or your facility. I pass by tables at every reptile show and read right pass ads on kingsnake because I know that the animals, while genetically may be what I want, are not of the quality or from the conditions I want for my collection. I had a guy once sell me a snake, probably 5 years ago, and then, after dragging his feet to ship, said he was going to ship it to Big Daddy of Power House Reptiles and that I could get the snake from him. It should come as no surprise that I immediately told the guy that this wasn't acceptable and that I wouldn't take animals that were from PHR's facility. This situation is very similar in my mind. After the snakes were MIA for a week we find out that they were in a rescue facility in Arkansas. A good analogy is that it's like ordering a new car and then finding out that it was left outside for a week with the windows open.
If you refund my money, as requested, then what have you lost? If you refuse to refund my money, then you can also ask yourself what you might lose. My hope is that you'll do the right thing.

John




From: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Oct 08, 2013 8:28 am
To: "<[email protected]>" <[email protected]>
I spoke to Jenna last night ands he was able to send the animals back to me last night. I will report back to you upon their air ail with an update on their well being.

As a reply to your email I do not understand or appreciate the speculation of any fault of mine. The underlined assumption that it was a label issue is only a theory created by lower level employees of fed-ex that upper management does not feel was the issue. Nor do I understand your lack of desire to work with me in this situation. You ask me to consider what I may loose however, it is you who is not willing to make a bad situation better and forcing me into a corner.

As a seller I have a basic responsibility to deliver what has been paid for. It is not my attention to deviate from such agreement. In the event you refuse to receive such merchandise purchased I as the seller am not obligated to return monies paid. However, I again humbly plea with you to help come up with an a amicable solution.

Thank You,
Jereme James




From: jereme james <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 3:47 pm
To: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
as scheduled I received the snakes tuesday oct. 8th the clown looks great and the sterling mojo yb is in shed. I will offer the clown food tomorrow and the other in a week or two. I also got a chain of custody report from Fed-ex and it was good news. The package was opened friday and brought to a museum that evening. The museum had no idea what to do with them and gave them to the rescue saturday. The rescue had them quarantined until shipping them to me. As said in prior emails I would prefer to hold on to them for a few weeks to insure no potential issues prior to sending them to you.

Thank You,

Jereme James



From: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, Oct 12, 2013 6:28 am
To: "Jereme AFB" <[email protected]>
Jereme,
You completely ignored everything in my last email to you. I'm glad that snakes are back in your care and I would like for them to stay there and for you to please refund my money as requested. I did buy the snakes from you, but even if you send them to me, they are no longer the snakes I purchased. I bought snakes to breed this season and now that is not an option and I am not blaming you about it - I just don't think its my obligation to take them since they are no longer what was advertised and I still don't have them after they should have been delivered on October 24th.
I'll be honest, Jereme, I am shocked at how unwilling you are to work with your customer. It is pretty much a foreign concept to me that you would rather fight me about these two snakes instead of going out of your way to remedy the situation - even if it costs you a sell. I would bend over backwards for my customers and if someone was in a position, as I am, then I would rather be able to keep good relations with her/him and have my reputation continue to be strong.
I am not okay waiting another few weeks for you to get these snakes settled in and then shipped again. So, Jereme, I'm kindly asking you again to please refund my money and make right on this situation.

John




From: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Oct 14, 2013 9:18 am
To: "<[email protected]>" <[email protected]>
John,
I am equally complexed on your position on this matter as you are on mine. I do not understand how you can claim that you are not getting what you bought. After understanding the chain of custody and the current well being of the animals. The clown took a meal without hesitation and the sterling mojave yellow belly just shed they both are mite and disease free. These animals have the same ability to breed today as they did the day I sent them. Your position that there ability to breed has been compromised has me lost for words.

You implying that I am not doing the right thing is a bit self served and it is me asking you to do the right thing. Buyer and seller both have a responsibility and a moral obligation to do the right thing. If I was in your shoes I would never make the demands that you or making nor do I know anyone that would.

Again I plea with you to do the right thing and work with me here I do not like these types of letters or the negative energy they will potentially bring.


Thank You,
Jereme James


INTRODUCE THIRD PARTY AFTER CONVERSATION IN TINLEY

From: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
Date: October 14, 2013 at 9:40:03 AM CDT
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX>
Subject: Shipping issue

XXXXXXX,
Thank you for taking the time to talk with me this weekend. Jereme is still not working with me (received another email minutes ago) and I wanted to know if he would be okay if I mentioned your name and how we spoke of the situation. He insists these snakes are my responsibility and I'm honestly losing patience with his lack of understanding and unwillingness to work with me.
Thanks,
John





From: XXXXXXXXXXXXX>
Date: Fri, Oct 18, 2013 12:00 pm
To: John Woolard <[email protected]>
Sorry for the delay John, (*sentence omitted to protect anonymity)

I want to be cautious about the language here, (*words omitted to protect anonymity) I am sure you understand.

It is not my place to scold Jereme or insist he do something.

But you can tell him that you and I have talked and "it seems to be the easiest solution in this unfortunate situation is for Jereme to give a refund on the animals never received. I understand your (John) situation in not wanting to bring animals in house that have had a stop in caging outside of Jereme's facility. It is a very odd situation, but I am glad the animals were recovered. If Jereme makes the refund, I would think that would preserve the relationship and encourage other business moving forward."

Can you work with that quote that "happened" between you and I?

XXXXXXXXX

From: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
Date: October 18, 2013 at 1:08:06 PM CDT
To: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: update

Jereme,
Regardless of circumstance that prevented the snakes I purchased from being delivered to me as guaranteed, by you the shipper, on September 24th, it is now October 18th, the snakes are back in your possession and you have not come through for me as your customer for nearly a month now.
I spoke to XXXXXXX about this at length and his take is that the easiest solution in this unfortunate situation is for you to give a refund on the animals I never received. He understands the situation and me not wanting to bring in animals that have had a stop in caging outside of your facility. He agrees that this is a very odd situation, but he's glad the animals were recovered and are back with you.
So, here is where I am with this. I'm not asking you to agree with me about my concern for bringing in animals that were MIA for a week and then discovered to be in a rescue facility, but I am making one final request for you to refund my money for animals I did not receive when I purchased them and that are now back in your possession several weeks after they should have been delivered to me.
If you choose not to refund my money, however, then you leave me no choice but to make this matter public. I also have the option of making the legal matter, but I'd like to avoid all of this and would hope that we can settle this matter privately. So, Jereme, I'm asking you again, as I have for weeks now, to refund my money for the animals I never received.
John




From: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 9:24 am
To: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
John,

I apologize for the delayed response. As you know the reptiles are a hobby of mine, my day job consumes in excess of 80 hours per week. I did not want to send another hastily written email under the assumption that we could readily hash out our differences, and I have just now found the time to clearly and coherently put my thoughts to paper if you will. Please allow me to address each of your concerns and grievances as you stated on letter dated 10-18 3013

"Regardless of circumstance that prevented the snakes I purchased from being delivered to me as guaranteed, by you the shipper, on September 24th, "

Response: There was no written or verbal statement validating this statement, there was also never any conversation or text implying this.

"it is now October 18th, the snakes are back in your possession and you have not come through for me as your customer for nearly a month now."

Response: The reason this has not been resolved for a month, is because we disagree on the basic premise of the dispute. There is no delay on my part, I am happy to ship the moment you are willing to receive.

"I spoke to XXXXXXXXX about this at length and his take is that the easiest solution in this unfortunate situation is for you to give a refund on the animals I never received. He understands the situation and me not wanting to bring in animals that have had a stop in caging outside of your facility. He agrees that this is a very odd situation, but he's glad the animals were recovered and are back with you."

Response: This is an issue for me. I have spoken XXXXXXXX via phone as well as via email. Not only was his response the antithesis of what you're reporting, but he outright denied making these statements. This concerns me: the premise of your dispute hinges itself upon a moral framework. I now have valid concerns caused by your outright willingness to fabricate information, this coupled with my original disagreement with how to handle the issue surely doesn't make me feel less confident about my chosen course.

"So, here is where I am with this. I'm not asking you to agree with me about my concern for bringing in animals that were MIA for a week and then discovered to be in a rescue facility, but I am making one final request for you to refund my money for animals I did not receive when I purchased them and that are now back in your possession several weeks after they should have been delivered to me. If you choose not to refund my money, however, then you leave me no choice but to make this matter public. I also have the option of making the legal matter, but I'd like to avoid all of this and would hope that we can settle this matter privately. So, Jereme, I'm asking you again, as I have for weeks now, to refund my money for the animals I never received."

Response: I am confused by the entire premise here. Let's follow the chain of custody: Animals were mine, you purchased them, I delivered them to a carrier at which point relinquishing ownership of the animals, the carrier creates a blunder, I put in my due diligence to recover the lost shipment (successfully I may add), you refuse the shipment over some hyperbolic scenario but expect me to assimilate this theoretical risk into my collection? I graciously offer to quarantine the animals, ensure their health and feeding habits and then re-ship. All of which were not only rejected, but the responses were laced with veiled threats of making this public all the while offering zero effort towards an amicable resolution of our disagreement and littering your responses without outright fabrications? I just want to make sure I am keeping up with all of what happened here?

I will offer once again--in an effort to come to a resolution-credit towards other inventory of an equal value which may include but not limited to other clown female, pastel clown, super pastel yellow belly all of with are well within range of breeding this upcoming season.
As a final note, I want to be clear that I will not be bullied or threatened. If you are unwilling to resolve this issue in a mature and reasonable fashion, then I will have to assume you are relinquishing your property. Pursuant to California Law Sections 1834.5,I am extending the clock to begin today affording you 14 days to accept your property or it will be deemed abandoned at which point it will be donated to the upcoming USARK auction.


Thank You,
Jereme James


ALL THREE PARTIES INCLUDED IN THE FINAL EMAIL

From: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
Date: October 25, 2013 at 11:38:38 AM CDT
To: Jereme AFB <[email protected]>
Cc: XXXXXXXXX
Subject: Re: update

Jereme,
I wanted to make sure you knew that I posted a thread on the about the shipping situation and your unwillingness to make right on the snakes and issue me a refund.
I did not address your claim about XXXXXXXX's denial of what I wrote or your claim that's it's fabricated because this thread is not about XXXXXXX and he doesn't need to be dragged into it any more than he has. I would have sent that email to sooner, but I wanted to make sure I didn't misrepresent XXXXXXXX's position. That's just not how I do things man.

So, I have XXXXXXXX's email that I quoted to you and if you care to discuss that part of the issue further I'll ask that you do so directly with him.
My hope remains that you will decide to do the right thing and issue me a refund as I have requested numerous times. If you've spent the money and just don't have it, then please let me know that you have and that you're at least willing to start paying me back.
I try to be a reasonable guy, Jereme, and I don't think anything I've requested throughout this ordeal has been unreasonable at all. If you read that thread and the related threads on the matter then you will see how others see things in a very similar light as I do.
I implore you to turn this unfortunate situation around and make right on it.
There's still time.
Thanks
John

….

continued
From: John Woolard Reptiles <[email protected]>
Date: November 4, 2013 at 4:51:19 PM CST
To: jereme james <[email protected]>, Jereme AFB <[email protected]>, Jereme James <[email protected]>
Subject: Snakes

Hi, Jereme.
I'm sorry to have to email you again, but, since I haven't heard back from you, I thought I'd reach out again.
I saw your response to the thread I started and, while I know you had said you wouldn't refund my money for the two snakes, I was hoping that you'd reconsider my request in light of the unfortunate circumstances that resulted in the snakes not being delivered to me and because of my concern with bringing them into my collection after all that has taken place.
I'd really like to put this behind me and I'm sure you do as well. To extend my hand, I will be more than happy to post that you made right on the snakes and I will even donate $1,000 of that money to Movember, in your name, so we can find common ground in our support of men's health.
Thanks,
John

Sent from my iPhone

Transfer of ownership doesn't occur until the buyer has the product in hand. A carrier doesn't take ownership of what it ships. It conveys possession, not ownership - big difference. Am I missing some part of this issue? I would have already went after my money through legal means.

John - I can understand wanting to maintain the anonymity of the other person involved, and wanting to provide the full email chain...unfortunately, you cannot do both. Posting anonymous third party quotations is against the rules of the BOI; the options being either post the name of the person, or omit what was said. This situation is slightly different from the intent of the rule, as the person wasn't telling you things about the subject; but the manner in which he was involved makes it applicable.
Since the responses of Heronboy indicate that he claims the same person denied his statements, and suggest that he said the opposite; perhaps the best option would be to have that person post here. That would both get you off the hook for anonymous quotation, and resolve the apparent discrepancy.

hhmoore said:

John - I can understand wanting to maintain the anonymity of the other person involved, and wanting to provide the full email chain...unfortunately, you cannot do both. Posting anonymous third party quotations is against the rules of the BOI; the options being either post the name of the person, or omit what was said. This situation is slightly different from the intent of the rule, as the person wasn't telling you things about the subject; but the manner in which he was involved makes it applicable.
Since the responses of Heronboy indicate that he claims the same person denied his statements, and suggest that he said the opposite; perhaps the best option would be to have that person post here. That would both get you off the hook for anonymous quotation, and resolve the apparent discrepancy.

Click to expand...

The fact that the third party is anonymous does not change the fact that "JJ" took John's money and did not deliver what John purchased. The fact that the snakes left the Fed Ex hub, and ended up in the rescue facility is undisputed. What happened was nobody's fault, things happen. Once that happened, JJ was not able to give John what he purchased. That should have ended the matter, John's money refunded, and all move on. I hope everyone will gather all the facts and decide if this is how you want to do business. Again, the anonymous person does not change the timeline of events, including John being out $4500.

The fact that the snakes left the Fed Ex hub, and ended up in the rescue facility is undisputed. What happened was nobody's fault, things happen. Once that happened, JJ was not able to give John what he purchased. That should have ended the matter, John's money refunded, and all move on.

Click to expand...

Agreed. While both parties involved have maintained admirable civil, intellectual and professional debates, I can't fault John for requesting/expecting a refund.

John (nor Jereme) has no way of knowing what those snakes could have been exposed to or how cared for while at the rescue facility.

Jereme has the snakes back in his possession, thank the gods. He can easily resell once he's satisfied they are indeed in good health.

In my worthless opinion, Jereme is not yet a "Bad Guy".

Jereme, the facts are the facts. Given the exact same situation, would you accept snakes into your stellar collection not knowing what they'd been exposed to or caged with or how cared for?

Please just refund John's money and resell. Your reputation certainly has to be worth it.

John I am sorry that the shipping had gone totally wrong with these snakes I would like some clarifications on a few things that don't make sense to me

#1 when the package was not delivered on time what did you do to track them down? did you call Jereme about the none arrival? and did you contact the shipping company?

#2 When you asked for a refund you base it off the fact that you could not breed them this season, why not have them reshipped and breed them in an off season attempt?

#3 If you were afraid of what the snake may or may not have picked up at the rescue, and that is the reason for the for not taking the snake. where you not going quarantine these snake once they got to you? were you just planning to breed them?

Now I know you may not like what I asked but from this condensed version of an older thread and from the emails it seems that you bought animals to breed this season and with the regrettable lay over at the rescue and a return to the shipper you feel like you are out of the running for a stellar clutch of babies from this pair of animals so you want your money back which I do believe you deserve.

I had a good deal with Jeremy last year. I just have to wonder, though, if this is another case of money spent before making sure everything goes right. Seems to be a recurring theme on the BOI lately. Now matter how much you need it don't spend that money until you know your side of the deal is completed.

hhmoore said:

John - I can understand wanting to maintain the anonymity of the other person involved, and wanting to provide the full email chain...unfortunately, you cannot do both. Posting anonymous third party quotations is against the rules of the BOI; the options being either post the name of the person, or omit what was said. This situation is slightly different from the intent of the rule, as the person wasn't telling you things about the subject; but the manner in which he was involved makes it applicable.
Since the responses of Heronboy indicate that he claims the same person denied his statements, and suggest that he said the opposite; perhaps the best option would be to have that person post here. That would both get you off the hook for anonymous quotation, and resolve the apparent discrepancy.

Click to expand...

I wanted to touch base with Robyn Markland prior to posting on here, but he gave me the okay to use his name. I would like to point out that Robyn has worked very hard to maintain neutrality in this matter, as Jereme and I are both customers of Ship Your Reptiles, and, therefore, only offered an opinion as to what he thought might be an easy fix to the unfortunate situation.

GMTIRRILL said:

John I am sorry that the shipping had gone totally wrong with these snakes I would like some clarifications on a few things that don't make sense to me

so you want your money back which I do believe you deserve.

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I do want my money back and asked for it to be refunded because the animals were no longer from Jereme's facility, but from a rescue facility - as I noted in my first email reply to Jereme. I consulted a veterinarian, as stated, and based my decisions on all that had transpired. The fact that the snakes were not likely good candidates for breeding after being shipped around the country was definitely a distant issue for me in comparison to the potential health risks after being "lost" for a week and, in the end, in an animal rescue for nearly two weeks.

(Just FYI- I'm the one who had the local FedEx agent request an expedited delivery from Memphis, while I stood there, and began making my own calls to FedEx and Ship Your Reptiles. I'm the one who sent Jereme a text to make him aware of the situation as I walked out of the door of the FedEx hub.

LauraB said:

Agreed. While both parties involved have maintained admirable civil, intellectual and professional debates, I can't fault John for requesting/expecting a refund.

John (nor Jereme) has no way of knowing what those snakes could have been exposed to or how cared for while at the rescue facility.

Jereme has the snakes back in his possession, thank the gods. He can easily resell once he's satisfied they are indeed in good health.

In my worthless opinion, Jereme is not yet a "Bad Guy".

Jereme, the facts are the facts. Given the exact same situation, would you accept snakes into your stellar collection not knowing what they'd been exposed to or caged with or how cared for?

Please just refund John's money and resell. Your reputation certainly has to be worth it.

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Hi Everyone,



Sorry this has taken me a couple of days to get over here, my business is very busy and It’s hard to find the time to get on the computer. But this is important and I am sorry for not getting here sooner.



I don’t want to drag Robyn into this, it is a peripheral point that John claims he said something which he denied saying. Robyn was a pleasure to deal with throughout this, and in spite of the calamity occurring at the hands of FedEx – SYR.com didn’t do anything wrong and was very helpful in finding the animals. I don’t want to make this about Robyn, it’s not about him.



I would like to see John and I come to a resolution as much as anyone in this situation – including John. No one wants their name drug through the mud on various public forums, I certainly don’t. Particularly over a dispute regarding my hobby.



The difference of opinion boils down to two stubborn people who see a situation very differently. I want it to be clear, had those snakes never been found, or somehow showed up DOA : John would have had a cash refund immediately. I am not hurting for money; I didn’t “spend his money before he got his snakes”. I am not implying $4,500.00 isn’t a good chunk of change, as it is! But I can absorb $4,500.00 without it changing my life in a substantial way. If John hadn’t agreed to have the snakes shipped to him from the rescue facility directly, only to dodge my attempts to reach him and find out he refused to accept them through SYR I probably wouldn’t have been so angry as well. Instead he didn’t make me aware of his concerns, led me to believe everything was good and he would let me know when the snakes arrived from the rescue. Then I get a call from SYR telling me that he contacted them and told them he would not accept the shipment.

Throughout this ordeal I have done the following:

1.) 1.) Received the snakes, quarantined them and made sure they are feeding.

2.) 2.) Offered to run cultures and fecals on the snakes through the lab I use, and ship them once they have a cleared report (on my dime). This was refused.

3.) 3.) Offered for him to pick from a variety of animals I have to offer (many of which are ready to breed prime morphs in excess of the value of what he purchased, including another female clown which never left here and was essentially an identical snake to the one he purchased). This was also refused.

4.) 4.) Offered to quarantine the snakes here for a lengthy period, and be absolutely certain nothing is wrong with them before shipping.

I believe these are fair, rational responses. This all hinges upon the notion that these girls would have bred for him this year without a quarantine period (?), and that now he can’t do that… well I am sorry, but I can’t keep up here. This is basically my being unable to fulfill his unreasonable request to do something he shouldn’t have been doing in the first place? I didn’t make this situation arise, the snakes were properly packaged, properly labeled with a duplicate label and business cards INSIDE the box as well. Something went awry through fedex, but not here.



Unfortunately John feels he is entitled to a full refund, and I disagree. I didn’t fail to do anything as a business, other than to meet his unreasonable request (as I see it). Our personality differences surely didn’t help this situation, but I am still willing to work with John under the conditions I have set forth; he is not.



Also yes I made John fully aware that his snakes would be donated to an auction 2 weeks in advance if we didn’t fix this. I am not going to keep someone’s snakes AND their money, that is ridiculous! So he let the clock run out for 2 weeks, not once picking up the phone or emailing to try and work this out , just slamming me on . Sorry guys, but I honestly tried to work this out. Hopefully when this all comes out in the wash my name won’t suffer too badly, but I don’t view this as trading my name for $4,500 as some have implied, but as willing to take a few lumps for being stubborn and feeling that I am right.

All I see is nothing except self serving solutions that are a failed attempt at customer service. Your options are all predicated on forcing your customer to select one of "your acceptable options" and show no sign of comprise at all. Then you imply a 2 week time limit before the snakes are being donated to an auction. (easy solution for you, you get to keep the $4,500 and look like a hero to an auction for donating high dollar snakes.) Just a question, did you fully disclose the details of these snakes to both the Auction and it's participants?
I don't see that you tired at all. All I see is that you tried to do what best for "yourself" and not what's best for your "CUSTOMER".

Since your original transaction was never completed and your "customer" never received his merchandise I would say he is deserved a refund!!!! You have his money and he does not have your snakes. Am I missing something?

The issue is not how are why it happened. It's about making your customer whole.
When the original snakes were not 1st delivered to John that changed the whole game from that point on. The snakes are no longer acceptable to the buyer because of the improper delivery. The seller has $4,500 and the buyer has no snakes.End of story, game over!!!! It's up to the buyer to decide for himself which way the transaction is to be competed since the snakes were never received as promised.

HERONBOY said:

I would like to see John and I come to a resolution as much as anyone in this situation – including John. No one wants their name drug through the mud on various public forums, I certainly don’t. Particularly over a dispute regarding my hobby.



The difference of opinion boils down to two stubborn people who see a situation very differently. I want it to be clear, had those snakes never been found, or somehow showed up DOA : John would have had a cash refund immediately. I am not hurting for money; I didn’t “spend his money before he got his snakes”. I am not implying $4,500.00 isn’t a good chunk of change, as it is! But I can absorb $4,500.00 without it changing my life in a substantial way.



Unfortunately John feels he is entitled to a full refund, and I disagree. I didn’t fail to do anything as a business, other than to meet his unreasonable request (as I see it). Our personality differences surely didn’t help this situation, but I am still willing to work with John under the conditions I have set forth; he is not.



Also yes I made John fully aware that his snakes would be donated to an auction 2 weeks in advance if we didn’t fix this. I am not going to keep someone’s snakes AND their money, that is ridiculous! So he let the clock run out for 2 weeks, not once picking up the phone or emailing to try and work this out , just slamming me on . Sorry guys, but I honestly tried to work this out. Hopefully when this all comes out in the wash my name won’t suffer too badly, but I don’t view this as trading my name for $4,500 as some have implied, but as willing to take a few lumps for being stubborn and feeling that I am right.

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Then give him back his money.

Your personalities not clashing is not an excuse for you to be "stubborn" when you can obviously refund him (by your own admission) then either sell those animals again or put them up for auction. You do not get to keep his money and auction them off and remain a "Good Guy".

Seriously, you are just looking like an egotistical fool.

You have the snakes, they came in contact with a rescue facility and anyone with a lick of common sense would be concerned with that. No, this is none of y'all's fault, it falls on whatever mishap there was at FedEx, but somehow, you use this as justification to punish John for not abiding by your terms.

The product was not delivered to him. They product was compromised.

Give him his money back.

Jereme, everything else set aside, John does not have the snakes and he does not have his $4500. You have both. Keeping both is theft. You must relinquish one or the other. If John goes to court, he will win. Since John no longer wants the snakes, you need to return his money. As unpalatable as it may be, that is the only ethical option available to you.

HERONBOY said:

Hi Everyone,



Sorry this has taken me a couple of days to get over here, my business is very busy and It’s hard to find the time to get on the computer. But this is important and I am sorry for not getting here sooner.



I don’t want to drag Robyn into this, it is a peripheral point that John claims he said something which he denied saying. Robyn was a pleasure to deal with throughout this, and in spite of the calamity occurring at the hands of FedEx – SYR.com didn’t do anything wrong and was very helpful in finding the animals. I don’t want to make this about Robyn, it’s not about him.



I would like to see John and I come to a resolution as much as anyone in this situation – including John. No one wants their name drug through the mud on various public forums, I certainly don’t. Particularly over a dispute regarding my hobby.



The difference of opinion boils down to two stubborn people who see a situation very differently. I want it to be clear, had those snakes never been found, or somehow showed up DOA : John would have had a cash refund immediately. I am not hurting for money; I didn’t “spend his money before he got his snakes”. I am not implying $4,500.00 isn’t a good chunk of change, as it is! But I can absorb $4,500.00 without it changing my life in a substantial way. If John hadn’t agreed to have the snakes shipped to him from the rescue facility directly, only to dodge my attempts to reach him and find out he refused to accept them through SYR I probably wouldn’t have been so angry as well. Instead he didn’t make me aware of his concerns, led me to believe everything was good and he would let me know when the snakes arrived from the rescue. Then I get a call from SYR telling me that he contacted them and told them he would not accept the shipment.

Throughout this ordeal I have done the following:

1.) 1.) Received the snakes, quarantined them and made sure they are feeding.

2.) 2.) Offered to run cultures and fecals on the snakes through the lab I use, and ship them once they have a cleared report (on my dime). This was refused.

3.) 3.) Offered for him to pick from a variety of animals I have to offer (many of which are ready to breed prime morphs in excess of the value of what he purchased, including another female clown which never left here and was essentially an identical snake to the one he purchased). This was also refused.

4.) 4.) Offered to quarantine the snakes here for a lengthy period, and be absolutely certain nothing is wrong with them before shipping.

I believe these are fair, rational responses. This all hinges upon the notion that these girls would have bred for him this year without a quarantine period (?), and that now he can’t do that… well I am sorry, but I can’t keep up here. This is basically my being unable to fulfill his unreasonable request to do something he shouldn’t have been doing in the first place? I didn’t make this situation arise, the snakes were properly packaged, properly labeled with a duplicate label and business cards INSIDE the box as well. Something went awry through fedex, but not here.



Unfortunately John feels he is entitled to a full refund, and I disagree. I didn’t fail to do anything as a business, other than to meet his unreasonable request (as I see it). Our personality differences surely didn’t help this situation, but I am still willing to work with John under the conditions I have set forth; he is not.



Also yes I made John fully aware that his snakes would be donated to an auction 2 weeks in advance if we didn’t fix this. I am not going to keep someone’s snakes AND their money, that is ridiculous! So he let the clock run out for 2 weeks, not once picking up the phone or emailing to try and work this out , just slamming me on . Sorry guys, but I honestly tried to work this out. Hopefully when this all comes out in the wash my name won’t suffer too badly, but I don’t view this as trading my name for $4,500 as some have implied, but as willing to take a few lumps for being stubborn and feeling that I am right.

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Well, if the links to the thread at .net hadn't been killed, the membership her would be able to see what a crock this is. It is clear from the conversation there that john never agreed to have the animals shipped to him directly from the rescue facility and you never argued that point in that thread. And john also posted another email that he sent you well after the thread started and before you auctioned off the snakes, which you say here he never did one time.
I wonder, since you've made such a huge ordeal about fecal exams, which wouldn't solve anything by the way, I have to wonder, did you have fecal exams fine in these snakes before you auctioned them off? Also, if you thought a lengthy quarantine was a reasonable soliton to ensure these animals were healthy, why did you auction them off after having them back for only two weeks. Now Jason Amos and heather wong have animals that were only quarantined for 2 weeks after having been in a shelter. And again, if the links hadn't been killed, the membership of this forum would have been able to see the whole truth, that you auctioned these animals off without revealing to the bidders that they'd been in a shelter. Jason Amos won the clown and says he wouldn't have bid on it had he known. The best thing for this whole situation I just for you to admit that you let your emotions get te best of you an got your dander up because you feel you are being punished for a mistake caused by fedex. So you auctioned them off to stick a finger in johns face as if to say "see, don't mess with me." I guess you win, as you said in the thread.

There's not a chance in hell that I'd ever do business with Jereme after this. I'd be willing to bet nobody who reads this thread would either. What happens if FedEx loses another shipment and my snakes get list ? Do i have to accept them after being in an unknown place for days? Obviously I know the answer to that as John is suffering the repercussions of a hard headed guy who knows nothing about customer service. The easiest solution would have been to refund the money , quarantine them until they were for sure healthy, relist them and sell to someone else... Possibly earning johns business again for some other snakes. This is ridiculous at this point. Donating animals that need to be quarantined for much longer than 2 weeks is irresponsible to say the least.

Is this the same guy?

http://ecosnake.com/?s=smuggled

Tom Pecanic said:

Is this the same guy?

http://ecosnake.com/?s=smuggled

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Well that could be interesting ...