King Cobra not feeding- any suggestions

I purchased a 7 foot venomoid king cobra from Carolina Reptiles back in November and she still has not eaten for me. I provide educational shows to schools etc., so a venomoid is a must. Se is a healthy and active snake, she just refuses to eat. I had Bruce at Carolina Reptile e-mail me a picture of her eating before I bought her, she was supposedly eating mice. I've offered her a few different types of pre-killed snakes with no luck. I would hate to offer her a live feeder snake and the feeder gets lucky and hurts my girl. She is a Farley aggressive snake hooding and striking regularly so this makes tease feeding a little hard, she focuses on me and not the food. She is a bit thin so I've force feed her twice to try to maintain her weight.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do; I don't want to loose her

First, I'll dare not go into the venomid issues here (very tempting, poor snake). Second, why not try live snakes? Throw some easily obtained Texas rats in there and see what happens. Why did you force feed again? You said she was thin? I will tell you know that only 6 months of not feeding will not make a healthy adult (or even subadult) snake thin. I would suspect you've purchased a non-feeding snake.

atroxman said:

I purchased a 7 foot venomoid king cobra from Carolina Reptiles back in November and she still has not eaten for me.

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It's hard enough to get an imported king cobra to feed. When you add the stress of amateur butchery on top of that, done with no pain medication, you have a real problem.

You are not the first person to have recieved one of Bruce's misrepresented butcher jobs. Others have posted here about the dying or dead mistreated kings they have recieved from this unethical person. There are lots and lots of threads about this individual. Use the search function on the BOI to find them.

I provide educational shows to schools etc., so a venomoid is a must.

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I also provide educational shows to schools, appropriate ones where I display native venomous snakes in securely locked cages. Consider sending the right message by doing the same thing. Children don't need to be taught that it is "cool" to touch and play with venomous snakes. And snakes certainly don't need to be tortured and mutilated under unsanitary, inhumane conditions by amateurs with no pain medication. If you really had your heart set on a venomoid, you could have at least had it done by a licensed veterinarian who would do a clean and humane job of it.

I had Bruce at Carolina Reptile e-mail me a picture of her eating before I bought her, she was supposedly eating mice.

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Yeah, this is the same Bruce who mailed around a photo that I had posted of my high orange male king cobra and claimed it was a female venomoid that he owned that was the mother of offspring he had for sale. I wouldn't want to bet that the photo he sent you wasn't another one of mine or somebody else's that he ripped off. He is the reason I do not post pictures of my kings any more. It makes me sick to think that he is using my photos to sell his mutilated hackjobs. Post the picture here and see if anybody recognizes it. Chances are good that somebody will.

I've offered her a few different types of pre-killed snakes with no luck. I would hate to offer her a live feeder snake and the feeder gets lucky and hurts my girl.

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You seem to love your snake a lot for someone who was willing to have it hacked on by an amateur. King cobras eat snakes in the wild, and they do pretty okay at it. Try a fairly small live feeder snake to see if you get any response. But choice of food alone is probably not the biggest factor here. Kings are stress puppies, and they can express all kinds of health problems in response to environmental stresses. Wild caught kings (and don't delude yourself that yours is anything else if it came from Bruce "Hackjob" Eisenmann) are also heavily parasitized and should get fecals and appropriate medication.

Have you taken your animal (or at least some blood and fecal samples) to a veterinarian? If not, why not?

She is a Farley aggressive snake hooding and striking regularly so this makes tease feeding a little hard, she focuses on me and not the food. She is a bit thin so I've force feed her twice to try to maintain her weight.

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I'm glad to hear that this animal (which also might not be a female; nothing Bruce says can be trusted) is aggressive rather than resigned and lethargic. One thing you might try is a much larger cage with plenty of climbing space as well as a small, secure hiding space. Keep the humidity and temperature up. Offer food items on the ground while he/she is safely in a hide box or perched in thick branches above. The latter tactic works best with smaller kings which enjoy being arboreal.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do; I don't want to loose her

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Force feeding a king is another stressor event that you need to be careful with. What we've done with wild caught kings is to give them from 0.2 to 0.3 mg/kg of Diazepam to remove some of the stress, then put them through a thorough veterinary exam. We like to do a fecal direct swab and a cloacal wash to check for parasites plus a physical exam for external parasites and injuries at a minimum. That part doesn't even need to be done at a clinic. While the snake is still under the influence of the drug, we identify the parasites present and treat for them. We may also introduce an easily digestible nutritional slurry such as Mazuri or Walkabout Farms carnivorous reptile gel. More expensive but useful is a CBC and blood chemistry panel, but lacking budget, in-house tests like a simple hematocrit for PCV and maybe some basic cytology on a blood smear can be performed if you have the equipment handy.

Let's assume for a moment that you have absolutely no access to a vet clinic or any veterinary equipment, which is not a very professional scenario for a supposedly professional educator who is maintaining exotic animals. At a minimum you can see about obtaining Diazepam and a fecal exam from a local vet who will not see your animals in his or her office but might prescribe drugs and run your fecals. Fecals should be repeated throughout the course of treatment with antiparasitical drugs so that you can adjust dosing and duration.

If you can't even get it together to this extent, you could always shotgun the snake with 50mg/kg each of Panacur and Flagyl plus a nutritional slurry, repeated at 4 to 7 day intervals X 3. Be quick about it as prolonged restraint is not healthy for kings, and don't put the tube down the glottis by mistake as this will kill the animal. I don't really recommend the shotgun approach, but it may be better than nothing if you really can't be bothered to do a proper job of giving veterinary care.

My personal opinion is that anyone who can't be bothered to give proper veterinary care to an animal ought not to have it at all, but in this day and age of instant gratification no one can be stopped from buying and mutilating a king cobra if they want one. Whether it will survive this kind of treatment is questionable, especially without good quality veterinary support care. A skinny, physically traumatized, parasite loaded, stressed, imported king cobra does not have a great prognosis for survival otherwise.

You can find some more detailed information on the veterinary treatment of venomous snakes at http://www.snakegetters.com

atroxman said:

I purchased a 7 foot venomoid king cobra from Carolina Reptiles back in November and she still has not eaten for me. I provide educational shows to schools etc., so a venomoid is a must. Se is a healthy and active snake, she just refuses to eat. I had Bruce at Carolina Reptile e-mail me a picture of her eating before I bought her, she was supposedly eating mice. I've offered her a few different types of pre-killed snakes with no luck. I would hate to offer her a live feeder snake and the feeder gets lucky and hurts my girl. She is a Farley aggressive snake hooding and striking regularly so this makes tease feeding a little hard, she focuses on me and not the food. She is a bit thin so I've force feed her twice to try to maintain her weight.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do; I don't want to loose her

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My post is probably going to sound redundant, as Tanith did a superb job of both chastising you for getting a venomoid hack job, but at the same time giving you the neccesary information to try and save the snake.

Looks like you found out the hard way what quite a few of Bruce's snakes end up like...non-feeding, unhealthy, traumatized venomoids that don't end up surviving that long (hopefully yours will be an exception to this "rule").

As Tanith said, wild caught snakes are already under incredible stress (which is why a lot of wild caught snakes do not feed right away in captivity) in the first place. King cobras are notorius for being problematic captives when fresh out of the bush. And then, you throw in the fact that it was thrown in the fridge for an hour or so so that it was immobilized, strapped down with pieces of duct tape (or whatever they use), and cruedly cut open, had pieces of it's anatomy ripped out of it, sown back up with cheap, non-medical sutures (there is a pic of a king done by Bruce that demonstrates his sewing technique, the snake died, it was sold with the stitches still in it!), and then thrown in a shipping box and flown across the country. Tell me, you wouldn't really want to sit down for a snack after all that either, would you? I doubt that snake was in captivity longer than a few weeks before ol' Brucey took the blade to it.

Again, as Tanith said, venomous snakes can be displayed intact provided you display them in secure, escape proof caging (which is what you should be keeping them in anyway). Children shouldn't get used to the idea of touching venomous snakes. You don't need to use the "shock and awe" approach of education where you pull out your mutilated snake so kids can go "oooh" and "ahhhh" as you parade the poor animal around.

I'm sure you mean well. However, venomoids in this country are much more often than not performed on by unexperienced, unlicenced, unqualified butchers in their basements or garages. Snakes are hardy creatures, so some do survive in the long term, but most only make it a few weeks/months. Still impressive, considering the amount of trauma and stress they endure at the hands of their tormentors (the butchers).

Learn a lesson from this. Don't buy venomoids. If you MUST buy one (which I can't figure out why, if using venomoids is that imperative to your educational shows, drop venomous from your education shows, and let someone willing to use intact animals do it, there are plenty of them in TX), then at least get a licensed, experienced vet (not all vets know what they are doing when it comes to venomoid surgery, and most won't do it anyway) to do it, so that the snake is at least anesthisized, operated on in a sterile environment, and given pain management medication afterwards. But don't support Bruce and his hackshop.

I wouldn't buy a feeder mouse from those fools, much less a snake.

Thank you all for your responses and advice, I really appreciate the help.
My normal vet is a 3 hour drive away from me; she is an excellent vet who is very experienced with exotics. My local vet will not see venomous snakes in his office but will make house calls or prescribe appropriate medications if needed. I bought the King as a captive born Indo/Tia mix. I was told that kings grow quickly and go through a thin stage as they grow. I received a copy of a receipt that Bruce got from the vet that he used for the procedure. This was a simple receipt and could have been forged but, I would like to believe that it was not. All of my venomoids except for this one was done by Rich Richey. He does not do hack jobs and I trust his work and care taken to keep the animal as comfortable as possible.

As far as the venomoid issue, my local animal control guys, which I try to keep a good working relationship with do not harass me as much because they feel safer knowing that I am a knowledgeable professional and in the event of a dropped cage or God forbid an accidental escape, no children or otherwise would (relatively) be harmed by the snake. I do not make handling snakes look cool or neat is any way. It is simply hard to show the animal and all of its small but interesting adaptations and body parts if it is in a small cage. It is also much more personal and a child is much more likely to walk away absorbing more information if they are stimulated or interested. I always end my shows using a western diamondback that is very “nippy” and show exactly why it is not a good idea to handle venomous snakes. I handle all my snakes as if they are venomous while in the show.

I’ll try to catch a few small Texas rat snakes to offer her live and see if I can get a food response. I normally would not consider feeding wild caught food items to my captive animals due to the parasite and disease transfer rate. Do any of you have a better idea on getting her to start feeding.

The pictures that Bruce sent me are to large to add into this thread. I'm not sure how to compress the pictures to fit, so if anyone can help me again I'd Appreciate it.

Thanks again for the help.

Jeff

atroxman said:

All of my venomoids except for this one was done by Rich Richey. He does not do hack jobs and I trust his work and care taken to keep the animal as comfortable as possible.

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Last I heard, Rich Richey was NOT a vet, and he performed the surgeries HIMSELF. That would make him a hacker, and his snakes hack-jobs. That would also make his practices illegal. Same with his protege Kevin Smith.

Ok, I'll agree with you. He has been performing the surgery for "I think" around 20 yrs, under clinical conditions. You are correct he is not a vet, though he is very knowledgeable and good at what he does.

But, we are getting off subject. The real issue here is a poor snakes and friends life. The Cobra is in an appropriate sized cage with multiple hiding places and a small mounted tree to climb on.

Jeff

atroxman said:

The real issue here is a poor snakes and friends life. The Cobra is in an appropriate sized cage with multiple hiding places and a small mounted tree to climb on.

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*sigh* As much as I ethically object to your decision to have this snake tortured and mutilated by Bruce "Hackjob" Eisenmann, who is known to forge documents and has a criminal record, I will help this animal if I can. In my opinion, owners who torture and mutilate valuable animals deserve the financial loss when the mistreated animals die. But the snake never deserved any of this, so let's see what we can do about it. And hopefully you will now know better than to buy hacked up venomoids from butchers.

I have no confidence any so called veterinary certifications that he might have, given his past record of producing extremely creative fictional paperwork in regards to the snakes he is selling. Search on the BOI for his name and you will see examples of his past paperwork forgery as well as his criminal record. By the time you get done reading, you will be sorry you ever did business with this guy. Actually I'm sure you are already.

If you like, PM me your phone number and your vet's information, and I'll start the process of getting your vet in touch with the zoo vets I've worked with who have extensive experience with kings.

atroxman said:

I bought the King as a captive born Indo/Tia mix. I was told that kings grow quickly and go through a thin stage as they grow.

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There's the normal whipcord leanness of a healthy young king, and then there's the absence of intracoelomic fat bodies and muscle wasting of an emaciated animal. Post a pic and we'll be able to tell you which this one is.

I received a copy of a receipt that Bruce got from the vet that he used for the procedure. This was a simple receipt and could have been forged but, I would like to believe that it was not.

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Considering that Bruce "Hackjob" forges his deceased father's name to sales reciepts and makes up paperwork for wild caught ball pythons that are supposedly "het for piebald", I would only consider this piece of paper worth anything if you were sitting on the toilet and ran out of Charmin. Sorry bout that.

All of my venomoids except for this one was done by Rich Richey. He does not do hack jobs and I trust his work and care taken to keep the animal as comfortable as possible.

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Let's see. No pain medication. "Surgical field" a non sterile mess of newspapers, modelling clay and wood. "Surgical tools" from Home Depot. Anesthesia machine is an aquarium pump. Illegal procedures done in somebody's garage to save the expense of paying a vet bill. What exactly do you call this? It is quite a few notches above Ray Hoser's crude technique involving the refrigerator, but it is still very far from being a legitimate veterinary procedure with humane pre and postoperative pain medication.

As far as the venomoid issue, my local animal control guys, which I try to keep a good working relationship with do not harass me as much because they feel safer knowing that I am a knowledgeable professional and in the event of a dropped cage or God forbid an accidental escape, no children or otherwise would (relatively) be harmed by the snake.

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I don't transport kings to schools for this reason. I bring schoolchildren into the facility I work at so they can see our kings behind safety glass. I go inside the enclosure with the kings for a feeding or handling show that is safe for the audience. I transport native snakes in securely locked, sturdy plastic cages that will not break even if dropped. These cages are never opened on school premises.

I agree that it is a good thing to engage the kids' interest, but there are safe and positive ways to do this that don't require mutilating your animals. I understand that not everyone has a facility where they can walk inside a glass walled enclosure and do shows from there, but you can buy sturdy and shatterproof plastic cages for transport.

I always end my shows using a western diamondback that is very “nippy” and show exactly why it is not a good idea to handle venomous snakes. I handle all my snakes as if they are venomous while in the show.

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Might be a good idea not to tell the kids the snake is venomoid, to avoid sending the message that it's okay to keep a dangerous wild animal as a pet if you cut pieces off of it first. Nippy western diamondbacks can be good show animals, but they can also injure themselves if they bite a handling tool or cage furniture because you are stressing them to show off.

I’ll try to catch a few small Texas rat snakes to offer her live and see if I can get a food response. I normally would not consider feeding wild caught food items to my captive animals due to the parasite and disease transfer rate.

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Your snake has problems that go beyond parasites. In a pinch you can choose to try feeding with WC snakes then deal with the parasites in the king later. You can also deparasitize the WC snakes before feeding. This is where a microscope to run your own fecals comes in very handy indeed. It is a worthwhile investment for the serious keeper.

The pictures that Bruce sent me are to large to add into this thread. I'm not sure how to compress the pictures to fit, so if anyone can help me again I'd Appreciate it.

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Find a free photo website to put the pics up on, then post the web links to the pictures here.

I always make a point to let my audience know why the animals that I use do not make good pets, I usually go into detain as to why as well. I do not tell the children that the snakes are altered in any way. If I was to get bitten I would then tell them that the snake has had a surgery performed on it as to not worry the audience or give them a false sense confidence. When I do bring out the snakes, I have a safe working distance, and simply put the snake on a desk or on the ground. I never use the "Austin Stevens" technique of snake wrangling. The snakes usually goes into a defensive posture and will remain where it is.

I found an Image gallery and used it:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y86/atroxman/

the last two pictures were taken by Bruce. Looking at the pictures I do have a question if it is the same snake or not
.
Once again, Thanks for the help. I'll try live food first and then go from there, what do you think?

Jeff

I can't see those photos without your password, sorry. Can you make the album public, or change your password to something simple that you can share here?

Sorry, it should be public now, try it again.

Jeff

My guess - not the same snake in the feeding photos. That animal eating a rat looks a bit older than your animal should be, with those head proportions. It could just be that the head looks thicker because it's in the middle of eating, but I'm not so sure. Anyhow, given that it was Bruce who sent you this pic, you know what his veracity is worth.

That animal is emaciated. That is well beyond a normal, healthy, whipcord-thin young king.

Is it just me or does the photo of the king feeding look like it still has it's venom glands intact? Not the same snake, looks a lot larger & older as well. The snake he sent you, well, that's a skinny snake, I am expect it looked similar to that when you received it. I've seen many kings in my day, including CBB & WC, they all looked much better then that. Also, have you tried mutiple hide boxes within the cage. Let us know how well the ratsnakes go.

The king in the feeding photo appears to have significant scarring around its head and neck affecting the skin between its scales, as well as what looks like a fairly large head in proportion to its body. You see those proportions with older animals. That type of scarring is typical of parasite damage to animals that have been held for some time in a dirty enclosure with ticks and mites, either as WC imports or held with WC imports.

Also the color patterns don't match up between these photos. The animal in your photos appears to have a much smaller head proportionately, and brighter and clearer markings around the head and neck area. Some of this might be explained by an animal in shed, but given the known untrustworthy source of the photo I would definitely consider it worth thinking about.

I rather expected Bruce to have sent you a photo of one of my kings chowing rodents, since he's made free with my pictures before to represent snakes that he supposedly had. But I don't recognize that picture personally; that is not one of my animals. Doesn't mean somebody else won't though. I'm sure he is happy to steal photos from more than one source and claim that they are his snakes. I'd check Google images for pictures of king cobras to see if you can find that one on a website somewhere.

atroxman said:

As far as the venomoid issue, my local animal control guys, which I try to keep a good working relationship with do not harass me as much because they feel safer knowing that I am a knowledgeable professional and in the event of a dropped cage or God forbid an accidental escape, no children or otherwise would (relatively) be harmed by the snake.

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I haven't seen anyone else point this out yet, so I'll chime in with my $.02. At present I'm not a venomous keeper, just a guy who loves Burms, Retics and other large and potentially lethal snakes.

Do you KNOW that all your "venomoids" are actually venomoids? If these surgeries were done by amateur hacks (like most venomoid surgeries are), there is a non-trivial chance that the venom glands were left intact, or that they could have regenerated. If so, you (or one of the students watching your display) could be in for a nasty surprise if one of those snakes bites someone.

A crotalus sp. with 10% envenomation capacity could cause some nasty tissue damage -- or could send a child to the ICU. A King Cobra with 10% envenomation capacity could easily kill an average-sized adult. There have been a number of cases where "venomoids" were found capable of producing at least partial envenomation... and a few where the "venomoids" had 100% venom-producing capacity. (I'll defer to Tanith or other experts for more info on this question -- I'm sure they can provide better statistics than I can).

I'm not going to jump on you over the venomoid issue (although I have my own feelings on the subject and won't purchase snakes or supplies from anyone who deals in venomoids). However, I will point out that your "safety valve" may not be as safe as you think it is for you or for any bystanders. In my opinion, you would be better off working with hots and keeping the appropriate antivenins on hand in case of an accident. You would also be better off ensuring that NO ONE who doesn't know what they are doing gets anywhere near striking range of ANY of your snakes.

I chatted again this year at NAVC with some of the leading reseachers and authors in the field of reptile medicine for some additional updates on the venomoid industry. According to one well known source, true regeneration would not be likely if the entire venom gland were removed by a competent professional. However, if any scrap of gland tissue was left behind, it would be quite functional. The key words here are "competent professional". According to another equally well known authority in reptile medicine, re-fissuring and regaining functional envenomation capacity after a ductectomy or a partial gland removal is a normal and expected occurrence in his personal, clinical experience.

My own veterinarian performed two adenectomies at my request on patients that had just died from other causes. We could not save them, so we continued operating on them to further our knowledge and understanding of the anatomy of these species. He stated (and I observed) that the true venom gland itself is a difficult structure both to reach and to identify. The first thing he removed was a muscle that was rooted at the base of the fang that was difficult to distinguish from the gland. Identification of the removed tissue was accomplished under the clinic's microscope by cytology using stains.

My veterinarian is not an inexperienced one. He had at that point a few years of clinical experience treating venomous reptiles specifically and more than ten years doing surgery on reptiles generally. He has been employed by the state to perform telemetry implants on indigo snakes. If a reasonably experienced veterinarian can fish around in a snake's head and remove a piece of muscle rather than the gland, I would not hold out a lot of hope for what a non veterinarian might be doing in there. A non veterinarian who did not have a clinic's resources for in-house cytology (the setup ain't cheap) would not be able to find out their mistake either, except the hard way when the snake was done healing and was able to envenomate.

He stated that the mechanical result of this muscle being removed would be the classic sunken-headed appearance and a decreased ability to envenomate, and perhaps no ability to envenomate for some time during healing. I have seen a number of cases where I believe this to be a likely scenario. Eg, the animal presented the sunken headed appearance (in an elapid no less) but had the ability to envenomate especially if it chewed vigorously. Contact Ray Hunter (his information is available here if you search on his name) for more specific details and documentation of the snakes he has seen presenting like this.

I'm sorry, but the evidence suggests that handling a venomoid that was not done by a properly licensed and experienced veterinarian is rather like having your parachute packed and serviced before a jump by a kid who works at McDonald's flipping burgers. There are perhaps a small handful of veterinarians who are qualified to do this operation in such a way that regeneration or re-fissuring would not be a serious possibility. Most of them will not do it for the private sector. As a consequence, the market is dominated by greedy, inhumane amateur hackers who do not use appropriate procedures either for the snake's health or yours.

Another observation is that the people who deal in venomoids tend to be the real bottom of the barrel in this industry. They are already well known as the Bad Guys for what they are willing to do to make a profit, and that comes out pretty clearly on the BOI. Some searching and reading will reveal the way that these people do business. Eg, stealing other people's photos to misrepresent their animals. Trying to cheat their suppliers by claiming days later that snakes arrived DOA, then being unable to produce the bodies because they had actually died under botched surgery conditions. Sending dead or dying snakes with the stitches still in, and refusing a refund. History of arrest on animal cruelty charges. Read it all right here on the BOI. Even the dealings they have in nonvenomous reptiles tend to be horrendous, with a lot of customer complaints. This is a good place to do some homework before you decide to buy from someone you don't know.

These are not nice people. Even if you don't care about the ethical aspects of how they profit from torturing and mutilating snakes, it isn't a good idea to do business with them unless you have some KY handy to make your screwing more comfortable. If you absolutely must have a venomoid, buy a healthy adult captive bred animal from a reputable breeder and go find a real veterinarian who will do the procedure appropriately and humanely. But I won't sell you anything of mine.

atroxman said:

Ok, I'll agree with you. He has been performing the surgery for "I think" around 20 yrs, under clinical conditions. You are correct he is not a vet, though he is very knowledgeable and good at what he does.

But, we are getting off subject. The real issue here is a poor snakes and friends life. The Cobra is in an appropriate sized cage with multiple hiding places and a small mounted tree to climb on.

Jeff

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You are admitting to knowingly commisioning an unqualified person (non-veterinarian) to perform illegal procedures on animals which constitutes animal abuse and cruelty. That in effect makes you an accessory to criminal behavior. I would be very careful about my future dealings with Mr. Richey if I were you.

Oh, and to clarify, "being careful about future dealings" translates to "don't do business with".

Well I just tried a Texas rat snake with no success, I'll Waite a few more days and try feeding her again. You all are correct in stating that venomoids are not a sure thing. A 2% chance of duct regrowth exists with all adenectomy procedures. Simply put the venomoid surgery is not an absolute in any case. With educational animals venomoids are used quite frequently. Even many of your favorite television herp entertainers use venomoid snakes that they place under a rock or tree and then pretend to find a great catch. Haven't you ever wondered why these shows are almost always able to find nice big specimens of rare and difficult snakes? The object is to educate with as little risk to the handler and audience as possible.