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Old 04-08-2007, 04:54 PM   #21
CheriS
Jim, I will not even bother to answer your question addressed to me
1) it is in several places on a few threads including this one and 30 seconds on a search engine will give you the answers if you can no comprehend what I say and others have already repeated.
2) it is rude with no basic for being like that
3) as far as I know, no one crowned you a king of anything and me a subject to you that you can command me to only type certain things on any public forum. I think you are in the master/puppet mode a little too much and it becomes a way of life
4) Everytime we try to start having discussion on a thread that is to try and work towards something that we as a group can agree on or brainstorm regarding this for the health and possible future of this species, it seems like this crap starts on it. Turn on fans??? don't write anything but what I tell you??? dance puppet dance!!

The big question, and that has been my question for 5 years. What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?

*Business as usual? <--That has been the option of breeders that knew this for at least 5-6 years that I know of and personally I think that sucks and has caused the amount of positive that are being seen now
*Business as usually but with notice and/or education to buyers, be they someone just looking for a pet or someone looking for future breeders.... like a care sheet/info sheet?
*Breeders that are positive acknowledging it openly on their sites or when they sell?
*What can we all come together with one plan that we ask anyone selling positive dragons to adhere to? INFORM the Buyers?
*Give out Vet/Researchers statements with the care sheets?
*Make them available at shows in the US through promoters? Online sites? Referral to a location online to read the info with them sold?
*Ask Pet stores to participate?
*Breeder/owners come up with a plan of action and routine that makes less stress on babies when they move from breeder to new owner and then how the new owner should handle the situation there? One breeder who has a thread on FC, has complaints about babies getting very sick and/or dying shortly after arriving in their new homes, yet some breeder have rare complaints like that and it is believed because of the ways those babies are cared for at the breeder facility and then prepared for shipping... do we improve on that to lessen the ones having "stress related complication" that are positive?
*Ask breeders/owners to conduct a necropsy on dragons that die without a easily seen reason and to make sure that specifically looks for markers of adenovirus for being the cause? Report those to a central group?
With just one of those negative in the owner/breeder hands, they have proof that a dragon in their colony or at least that sibling in a clutch, did not show any trace of adenovirus that caused illness and death or that It DID SHOW IT. As I said before and many times that I can not seem to get across, that is much more valuable than a test that detects ANY species virus or detects a possible one that is not a cause of illness or death!

A necropsy can be done for very little cost, I have more than one place that does them free and have referred others to them that were tested for adenovirus over the last 5 years. Even if not free, you can have a section done for about $40 and if they detect possible markers for adenovirus, advance studies sent out for $30.

There are other ways than just PCR or EM to detect adenovirus ( there are other ways than a fecal sample to use those also) and there are some of those that detect illness associated with that, which are more effective than PRC or EM alone!

Tammy;
RE: years of testing, it is my understanding that the first lizard sequence of information of adenovirus which included bearded dragons was done in 2004 and published in Dec 2004. When you said several years I took that to mean more than a few or a lot longer than this. This is not a big deal, but my point was that some of us were testing with the means available prior to PRC and those were as accurate as they looked for markers of DISEASE, not just any adenoviral cell that could mean nothing and we were getting negatives.

Also, is it possible to not attribute a quote to a doctor without citing or copying his quote or the printed source as I think a lot or misunderstanding is coming in from stating Dr so & so says this, but it is not accurate. I am not saying it is intentional, but the way a conversation was remembered or repeated may not be accurate and in this thread alone there are some statements made that I think are inaccurate and not what the Dr said and it does mislead people although not intentional.

Jacobson:
Quote:
Light mircoscope is very useful for differentiating whether or not an animal that is known by other means to be infected with Agamid AdV1 has disease associated with the infection
All I am trying to say and it seems I can not get that accross is that we have the ability in other tests that we can do, to find out if there not only an adenovirus, but if there is DISEASE associated with illness or death in bearded dragons

Some breeders years ago knew they had a fatal form as they had death and illness in their colonies because they had a necropsy that showed it. How was that handled? I know, it was sweep under the table, business as usually.

Jacobson:
Quote:
5.2. Does adenovirus cause disease in bearded dragons? Yes, illness and death have been documented in bearded dragons with confirumed adenovirus infection and organ injury consistent with viral infection.
How do you think Julain, Durhan, Fyre, Kim, MItchell, Bauer, Poston, Cho the list can go on a long ways, including Jacobson, knew these were adenovirus related deaths or illness or that is was even adenovirus before PRC or it was sequenced that they did their prior published studies from?

What can and are we going to do? Nothing? Notes on a page? Any other suggestions ideas or others that want to expand or oppose some of the above? or is it sweep under again?
 
Old 04-08-2007, 07:01 PM   #22
draggintails
CheriS "Also, is it possible to not attribute a quote to a doctor without citing or copying his quote or the printed source as I think a lot or misunderstanding is coming in from stating Dr so & so says this, but it is not accurate. I am not saying it is intentional, but the way a conversation was remembered or repeated may not be accurate and in this thread alone there are some statements made that I think are inaccurate and not what the Dr said and it does mislead people although not intentional".

There is no misunderstanding....I do understand my conversations with Dr. Stacey and section 5.4 of the new document he states the two most common methods as PCR and EM..............since I have live animals...He did most certainly say that he knows of no other testing method than the PCR and EM for my live animals. He did NOT mention the liver biopsy and naturally he did not mention the necropsy for my live animals.

CheriS "There are other ways than just PCR or EM to detect adenovirus ( there are other ways than a fecal sample to use those also) and there are some of those that detect illness associated with that, which are more effective than PRC or EM alone!" That would be Light Microscopy? But AV has to be detected another way first and then the LM can detect if illness was attributed to it

Jacobson: Light Microscopy is neither sensitive nor specific, and either a positive or negative diagnosis of infection by Light Microscopy needs to be confirmed by other means.

CheriS: All I am trying to say and it seems I can not get that accross is that we have the ability in other tests that we can do, to find out if there not only an adenovirus, but if there is DISEASE associated with illness or death in bearded dragons"

yes, absolutely...we hear you and if an animal is ill or dead it should be liver biopsied maybe or if dead should be sent for necropsy to find out what is going on............however, and this is where the misunderstanding came in possibly ......I was discussing tests for live and healthy animals...so when you mentioned 2 more accurate tests that were being ignored (which is the liver biopsy and necropsy you say) I became excited.

CheriS: What are we as an industry going to do to try and protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week) and rebuild captive colonies that are as the Doctors state now and for years have said the same thing?

Dr. Brian Stacey :Tammy, we are in a somewhat frustrating time right now because there is so much unknown about adenoviruses and associated disease. It would be ideal to achieve a completely negative colony; however, I forewarn you that it may be very difficult because prevalence appears to be so high and adenovirus is incredibly stable in the environment.

Well first we have to find those negatives and figure out what negative means

I have some verifiable with IL and FL and according to statistics there are less than 80 resulting negatives that participated in the testing from 2003 to date from Florida and recently with IL.

If any other labs did testing we could info from them.

The doctors just stated they are unsure when this entered the dragon population so that is something to consider...it might have always, always been here.............dragons are not exempt from the laws of this planet that the rest of us are subject to.

also, with such a small number of negatives are they an inferior animal? How is the immune system of this animal when exposed to this virus..and he will be exposed most likely. Is the healthy positive a superior and victorious animal?

the dragon I imported from Austria..he had no contact with US dragons.....he went to NJ where we had no other dragons..his fecal was pulled within 48 hrs of arrival and he was positive. Something does not make sense.......and until all the other countries PCR their animals... I PCR'd one from Austria...positive..so what do you think the chances of that whole colony being positive if he was????

We did not have PCR available until 2003, the EM is not sensitive and give false negatives making you think they are neg the necropsy is not all that accurate with the LM for detecting AV..so the people that actually spent the time and money to necropsy a dead lizard might have gotten back a negative for AV on it. Look, we can argue this till Bess wanders up but, here it is: here were no tests for live animals before these and no one had liver biopsies on healthy animals...never heard of this even....who had this done? So, the possibility that it was always here, always everywhere should be considered and the breeders being blamed for this has to stop.

CherS: protect those that are negative here or that are brought into the US (whether some believe that or not does not matter and they sure as hell are not about to come on here and announce it after the garbage of the last week)

of course they will, I did....but there are no clean colonies.
 
Old 04-08-2007, 07:22 PM   #23
KelliH
Quote:
there were no tests for live animals before these and no one had liver biopsies on healthy animals...never heard of this even....who had this done? So, the possibility that it was always here, always everywhere should be considered and the breeders being blamed for this has to stop.
OK, so Cheri WAS referring to a liver biopsy on a LIVE dragon? I thought she was too but I don't think that question was answered, or if it was I didn't see it. I agree with your above statement, Tammy BTW.
 
Old 04-08-2007, 08:27 PM   #24
Neverland Dragons
I do think that anything is possible. But, I do not think it is likely that dragons have always had this virus. I do know Reptile Rooms has been tracking where positives came from for quite some time and it seems to lead back to certain lines. I also believe it was around before that, but probably in small numbers. This is just my opinion. I also think the most important issue is not whom to blame, but where to go from here.

Is there anyway to find out how many colonies were tested at the Univ of FL? I thought this test used to cost much more than $60 and it was used to confirm the presence of adenovirus in sick animals versus testing healthy appearing animals to see if they are carriers of the virus. In other words, how many of the animals tested were already suspected of having adenovirus and how many animals were tested because a private owner/breeder wanted to know if their dragons carried this virus but were otherwise healthy? It is important to know the numbers for each category. I do think that their tests show that this is wide spread, but I do not think that 500 tests without any distinction between dragons with symptoms vs asymptomatic dragons is an adequate representation of the entire U.S. bearded dragon population.

Now, let's assume that 90% of the dragon population has this. If Sandfire produced 9000 babies last year and Dachiu produced 4000 that is 13,000 total. 1,300 would represent adeno negative dragons. But, there are way more dragons than that in the U.S. Say, there are 100,000 dragons. That would mean roughly 10,000 are adeno free. I feel that there have got to be adeno negative dragons out there and it is premature to act on the assumption that all bearded dragons have this virus.
 
Old 04-08-2007, 11:38 PM   #25
draggintails
Wendy: "I do know Reptile Rooms has been tracking where positives came from for quite some time and it seems to lead back to certain lines."

the other part of the equation is......how many negatives tests were seen by reptile rooms? Not heard about but actually seen with eyeballs? I don't think any. That there is a big, huge problem...and the one I am making so much NOISE about. So tracking the positives means absolutely nothing, nothing at all, if negative test results belonging to other animals in that colony were not viewed, seen, witnessed in some way by the organization doing the tracking. Ebb and flow must be tracked equally or there is nothing to track. I asked Cheri this and she said that she did not actually see the negative tests but people just told her they were negative,that just isn't right, information must be verified, friendships be damned...I understand this though because you don't think that someone is lying about being negative and she does trust. So, I don't know about tracking positives..which is pointless...should be tracking the negatives..then have to have an attachment and have persmission to verify with the lab. Takes up space in the computer but then you can forward this information and it can be used for statistics.

Maybe sickness was tracked do you mean? Like sick animals that were positive and people reporting where the sick animals were coming from?

I don't understand this number 500 in referring to tests Florida has completed. Sounds like: from whiskersmom who was talking to Dachius, who heard it from Randy who talked to Brian on Thursday... hoodypole correct? I get one cookie for that one if so.


No, Brian did not give him that number..it was a hypothetical guess on Randy's part, Florida did not give him that number and he will tell you so ...they have way more than 500 submissions. Most from people who did not think they had it in their colony. The paper says most were asymptomatic animals. They were pets and breeding colonies submitted. That lab has spent more time calming down so many bewildered breeders and owners who thought they were totally clean (me included) freaked out and shocked at the test results...than they do running their tests.

Well, until someone comes up with the negative dragons and test results that I can see with my eyeballs (and verified with said lab) they are few and far between. It is not good to believe. ... you have to verify stuff.
Where are we going to get negative dragons, they have been exposed to the virus from the others in their colony....mom goes to the pet store la la la, to the reptile show la la la..the cricket guy feeds his dragons and la la la and packages up your crickets (that cricket does have dragons in his office by the way and he plays with them too..yep really) it is very hard to keep them isolated.


I don't know, but regarding Cheri's question and it is a good one and yours about where do we go from here?.....I can't speak for anybody else and I really don't care at this point...people in this situation have been dishonest, deceitful and of poor quality.

I have destroyed most of my colony, what I have left I thought was adeno free because I was not educated...they have negative tests..translation (got that from Schrap): were not shedding viral on the last fecal submission. I have bred them, the babies are big and pretty, they are healthy (we do not have sick or die offs and we never have). We do not guarantee they are adeno free, if you must have this, then go find some wacko that will give it to you and pass me by...(when you find that guaranteed baby, test it right after it is shipped and stressin..then call me).

I will guarantee as always, that the baby is thriving..if not return it. Other than that I have made great sacrifices trying to acheive a negative colony, that I thought was negative in the first place. I will continue to test periodically for my own records and I will continue to learn about this and attend as many conferences as I can and order transcriptions from the lectures that I can not attend. That's all anyone can do.



I
 
Old 04-09-2007, 12:27 AM   #26
shrap
Wow, someone with negative dragons is a "wacko" now.

I sure hope that entire post was meant as an opinion, because I did not read any facts. Just more people pushing their opinions.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 06:47 AM   #27
varnyard
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrap
Wow, someone with negative dragons is a "wacko" now.

I sure hope that entire post was meant as an opinion, because I did not read any facts. Just more people pushing their opinions.
I agree Sammy, the same thing has been going on for a long time in these forums, when I was looking back at the archives.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 07:38 AM   #28
Neverland Dragons
Quote:
Originally Posted by draggintails
Wendy: "I do know Reptile Rooms has been tracking where positives came from for quite some time and it seems to lead back to certain lines."

the other part of the equation is......how many negatives tests were seen by reptile rooms? Not heard about but actually seen with eyeballs? I don't think any. That there is a big, huge problem...and the one I am making so much NOISE about. So tracking the positives means absolutely nothing, nothing at all, if negative test results belonging to other animals in that colony were not viewed, seen, witnessed in some way by the organization doing the tracking. Ebb and flow must be tracked equally or there is nothing to track. I asked Cheri this and she said that she did not actually see the negative tests but people just told her they were negative,that just isn't right, information must be verified, friendships be damned...I understand this though because you don't think that someone is lying about being negative and she does trust. So, I don't know about tracking positives..which is pointless...should be tracking the negatives..then have to have an attachment and have persmission to verify with the lab. Takes up space in the computer but then you can forward this information and it can be used for statistics.

Maybe sickness was tracked do you mean? Like sick animals that were positive and people reporting where the sick animals were coming from?

I don't understand this number 500 in referring to tests Florida has completed. Sounds like: from whiskersmom who was talking to Dachius, who heard it from Randy who talked to Brian on Thursday... hoodypole correct? I get one cookie for that one if so.


No, Brian did not give him that number..it was a hypothetical guess on Randy's part, Florida did not give him that number and he will tell you so ...they have way more than 500 submissions. Most from people who did not think they had it in their colony. The paper says most were asymptomatic animals. They were pets and breeding colonies submitted. That lab has spent more time calming down so many bewildered breeders and owners who thought they were totally clean (me included) freaked out and shocked at the test results...than they do running their tests.

Well, until someone comes up with the negative dragons and test results that I can see with my eyeballs (and verified with said lab) they are few and far between. It is not good to believe. ... you have to verify stuff.
Where are we going to get negative dragons, they have been exposed to the virus from the others in their colony....mom goes to the pet store la la la, to the reptile show la la la..the cricket guy feeds his dragons and la la la and packages up your crickets (that cricket does have dragons in his office by the way and he plays with them too..yep really) it is very hard to keep them isolated.


I don't know, but regarding Cheri's question and it is a good one and yours about where do we go from here?.....I can't speak for anybody else and I really don't care at this point...people in this situation have been dishonest, deceitful and of poor quality.

I have destroyed most of my colony, what I have left I thought was adeno free because I was not educated...they have negative tests..translation (got that from Schrap): were not shedding viral on the last fecal submission. I have bred them, the babies are big and pretty, they are healthy (we do not have sick or die offs and we never have). We do not guarantee they are adeno free, if you must have this, then go find some wacko that will give it to you and pass me by...(when you find that guaranteed baby, test it right after it is shipped and stressin..then call me).

I will guarantee as always, that the baby is thriving..if not return it. Other than that I have made great sacrifices trying to acheive a negative colony, that I thought was negative in the first place. I will continue to test periodically for my own records and I will continue to learn about this and attend as many conferences as I can and order transcriptions from the lectures that I can not attend. That's all anyone can do.



I
Tammy, you get a cookie! My bad for throwing that number in there. I was under the impression (please correct me if I am wrong) that there were going to be statistics released in this paper. I understand that over 90% of the dragons tested positive. That is part of it. But where are the rest of the statistics? How many dragons were tested? From how many colonies? How many were suspected of having adenovirus and were showing some type of symptoms? How many were otherwise healthy and the owner was testing to see if they carried the virus? What part of the U.S. were the dragons from? Where did they origante from? Was it more prevalent in some areas of the country? I do think that all of these questions should be answered before anyone makes a generalized statement that most bearded dragons in the U.S. have adenovirus.

In regards to Reptile Rooms. It is my understanding that they have been tracking dragons that have either had a necropsy done that showed adenovirus or confirmed via fecal em or pcr. The tracking is for dragons showing illness/death and adenovirus was found in the dragon.

I know that emotions run high with this (mine included at times). I do think there are negatives out there and testing is the only way to find them. If indeed it is even a very small percentage, it is still a significant number when you look at the size of the U.S. dragon population. I am not ready to give up on this. I hope you are not either, because it is obvious you love your dragons and you are looking for concrete answers when there are few if any available.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 09:56 AM   #29
draggintails
I was disappointed there were no numbers as well, let's see if we can at least tell us how many owners sent in submissions.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 09:58 AM   #30
draggintails
I meant "they". I will ask him if he will provide this information for us.
 

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