Business Ethics or Lack of Them...

[deborahbroadus]

There are a lot of days where I feel out of step with the world, like I was born a century or three too late. I'm of the mind that honesty and integrity are infinitely important no matter what the situation is. It just seems like these days integrity is disposable, and some feel that they can bend it around when it suits them, or just completely toss it out the window if the deal is sweet enough. Those of you who entertain feelings similar to mine, I know that those sorts of things are important to you, also. Some of you, I'm proud to call friend, and you're one of the few people I'd stick my neck out for.

It hasn’t been an easy journey this goal to becoming a recognized breeder. I’ve learned the hard way not to take anything for granted, I’ve learned, never to assume anyone is honest. I learned to ask for ALL details up front before the handshake and walk away if those details aren't up to my standards. If breeders, buyers, sellers, traders want to act insulted that I’ve asked…well, that tells me a lot, too. Yep, my circle of people who I'll buy from just got a whole lot smaller recently because I've decided I'd rather pay more and buy from the few folks I know are honest. Animals shipped to in violation of shipping rules, mislabeled animals with stuck shed on them, bite wounds, smoke-reeking snakes - it's disgusting some of the things some "breeders" and "sellers" think is okay not to mention.

If people would stop dealing with those who are doing things the wrong way, they'll either straighten up their acts or bow out of the hobby.

*End Rant

 

[Lucille]

You GO girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And, good for you, for standing up for what is RIGHT!

 

[deborahbroadus]

I am no saint.

I make mistakes, have errors in judgement, all that. We all do, it's a part of the learning process. But the delibrate, continual willingness to continue making the SAME mistakes shows a lack of judgement, not a mistake in judgement and zero growth and maturity, which any business owner/enitity requires.

 

[deborahbroadus]

BTW: I had help formulating this post..I had to get the words just right so no one felt singled out and insulted. LOL

 

[Shadera]

Before I start, I wanna preface this by saying that it wasn't any one recent incident. It's a combination of a lot of thoughts, especially through this last year.

I agree. We need to be setting examples for the new wave of breeders coming in, not teaching them that's it's okay to, for lack of better words, lie about anything. I'm a firm believer that everything be disclosed up front. For good or bad.

As far as shipping, we have legal, approved routes to do things. There's no legitimate excuse for not doing them. And no, to save money or because you're lazy isn't one.

A lot of the black eye this industry has, we've brought on ourselves. I for one am tired of the dishonesty and am going to start being a LOT more selective about who I do business with. Both ways.

You got an honest pal here Deb. Might not always like what I have to say, but you know how that goes.

 

[kellylake0001]

its hard for a noob to trust. i have so many concerns, issues and questions. at this point i dont know if i can even trust someone to sell me a *real* het animal.

 

[deborahbroadus]

It's not a problem. I would rather have a friend that will tell me when I'm wrong and help me up than one that will lie to me and for me and help me fall.

Before I start, I wanna preface this by saying that it wasn't any one recent incident. It's a combination of a lot of thoughts, especially through this last year.

I agree. We need to be setting examples for the new wave of breeders coming in, not teaching them that's it's okay to, for lack of better words, lie about anything. I'm a firm believer that everything be disclosed up front. For good or bad.

As far as shipping, we have legal, approved routes to do things. There's no legitimate excuse for not doing them. And no, to save money or because you're lazy isn't one.

A lot of the black eye this industry has, we've brought on ourselves. I for one am tired of the dishonesty and am going to start being a LOT more selective about who I do business with. Both ways.

You got an honest pal here Deb. Might not always like what I have to say, but you know how that goes.

 

[deborahbroadus]

its hard for a noob to trust. i have so many concerns, issues and questions. at this point i dont know if i can even trust someone to sell me a *real* het animal.

I'll put it this way, and this is only my opinion. When someone takes the time to build their business UP, get shipping waivers instead of lying, even invest in a business license and pay taxes, they have a hella lot more to lose than the hobbyist, fly-by-night, and backyard breeders or flippers.

A HET is only as good as the name behind it, and judging by some of the posts by/and about more established breeders...not even then. You would be better off investing a bit more and getting a visual.

 

[timebider]

Hear, hear.

I never thought of myself as "getting older" ack2 until my husband started coming home from work with appalling stories about the kids coming out of college and their stunning lack of work - and other - ethics.

The common M.O. these days seems to be to do as little as necessary to get by. No one thinks anything of lying to save their hides. Yeah, there's a lot of it (sometimes it seems an irrational surplus) in this business, but it's really everywhere.

But you, Deb, are doing everything right. I don't know you personally, but your posts on FC (some of which I occasionally disagree with ), convince me of your unerring integrity and absolute dedication to your animals and their responsible husbandry. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with you, and I am like you - willing to pay more for a quality animal from one of the increasingly few breeders I trust, and unwilling to sell to folks who wouldn't uphold my same standards of care.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Some breeders are stauch supporters of Social Responsiblity in business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_responsibility

Social responsibility is an ethical ideology or theory that an entity, be it an organization or individual, has an obligation to act to benefit society at large. This responsibility can be passive, by avoiding engaging in socially harmful acts, or active, by performing activities that directly advance social goals. Businesses can use ethical decision making to secure their businesses by making decisions that allow for government agencies to minimize their involvement with the corporation. (Kaliski, 2001)

It is too bad that we have strayed so far from what we could have been that the government has seen fit to step in and control an entity that formerly had no controls.

I could tell you some stories about the students in college with me...and those people GRADUATED! They are still expecting free, easy rides.

I am not doing everything right..it's a learning process..but I have only sold to two people that I immediately wanted my animal back from when I saw that they were not following the advice/teaching that I provided on how best to care for those babies. I have stopped selling to a business that put them all in a tank and then complained to me that they weren't eating...Nooooooo, ya' think?(only sold to him ONCE..never again)

There's a thread where I got bashed to heck and back because of my Force feeding method (I have since invested in Nerd's book and have not had any further incidents..all the twins I have produced since then have gone on to thrive) I currently have a set of twins that I held back until I was sure they would continue eating and gaining weight..they are doing great, one is still a mouse eater though..but that's ok.

It's ok not to agree with me, my family has given me plenty of experience dealing with people that don't agree with me. Because they rarely agree with me, I learned not to get angry and hold grudges against anyone that doesn't agree with me...look who my friends are!

Hear, hear.

I never thought of myself as "getting older" ack2 until my husband started coming home from work with appalling stories about the kids coming out of college and their stunning lack of work - and other - ethics.

The common M.O. these days seems to be to do as little as necessary to get by. No one thinks anything of lying to save their hides. Yeah, there's a lot of it (sometimes it seems an irrational surplus) in this business, but it's really everywhere.

But you, Deb, are doing everything right. I don't know you personally, but your posts on FC (some of which I occasionally disagree with ), convince me of your unerring integrity and absolute dedication to your animals and their responsible husbandry. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with you, and I am like you - willing to pay more for a quality animal from one of the increasingly few breeders I trust, and unwilling to sell to folks who wouldn't uphold my same standards of care.

 

[Focal]

You come into this hobby knowing what you already know and until we steer further away from sales and more towards knowledge, it will reamin the same.

I thought I was a great "hobbiest" before I came here. I have been able to fine tune my skills based on practices by a VERY SLIM FEW on here. However, every person you help to get on the right track is your competition. So is it better to help those in need or shun those in need? Not everyone can be helped, but I at least try to reply to one persons request for help everyday. It seems like some people are on here every day, laying out opinions, chastising others, and bumping numerous for sale ads... but very few of these people are answering questions in the discussion or help forums.



I am no saint. I ask a million questions and steer far away from those that are questionable. But are they questionable because they don't know or because they don't care. It's a crappy situation. I think I steered way of topic, sorry but it's shorter and more on track than the first reply I was gonna post

 

[deborahbroadus]

This can be true, depends on who you hang with. I've been blessed to have friends/breeders that I can ask questions, but FIRST AND FOREMOST, I do my own research.

I think one of the problems out there now is that people want to be spoonfed (no I am not implying you) and this is not something a lot of people will do for anyone. Knowledge is acquired though work and tinkering with what you learn. Further, fine tuning of that knowledge and experience that you have gained leds breeders down very different paths.

For instance, some breeders cool BPs, I don't. The people I asked questions from, cooled, researching for myself (different posts and results of breeders...(you have to read between the lines) lead me to my current set up. See, we can't just ask questions. What works for me may not work for someone else.

People have become more wary (I know I have) of posting pics of their set ups with good reason. However, I know I have posts all over (mostly on another forum) explaining what I do and how successful for me it is...(see if anyone that has questions had done some research, they might have found it.)

Some of us have the questions that are being asked constantly over on our websites, too. Actually, the answers are all over the forums everywhere..... I don't know how else we can make it so easy for those REALLY wanting to breed.

But in another vein of sharing information: it's interesting...because Shadera started a thread on selective breeding, we could have learned in there, but since so many want to just throw some cheap animals together, that thread didn't get much traffic, so there's no pictures of animals we plan to pair, how to identify some good morph traits to pass on...etc. Breeders try constantly to share information...all anyone has to do is READ.

You come into this hobby knowing what you already know and until we steer further away from sales and more towards knowledge, it will reamin the same.

I thought I was a great "hobbiest" before I came here. I have been able to fine tune my skills based on practices by a VERY SLIM FEW on here. However, every person you help to get on the right track is your competition. So is it better to help those in need or shun those in need? Not everyone can be helped, but I at least try to reply to one persons request for help everyday. It seems like some people are on here every day, laying out opinions, chastising others, and bumping numerous for sale ads... but very few of these people are answering questions in the discussion or help forums.



I am no saint. I ask a million questions and steer far away from those that are questionable. But are they questionable because they don't know or because they don't care. It's a crappy situation. I think I steered way of topic, sorry but it's shorter and more on track than the first reply I was gonna post

 

[Focal]

Absoultely, I hear you on the "spoon fed" idea and if someone really wants to learn, it's out there already. Slim compared to other hobbies I've engaged it, but I'm a search-a-holic and always seem to find most of what I'm looking for. Some people have a hard time looking for answers (I work with most of them LOL) and just expect answers. At least twice a week I'm showing my dad how to use google. No foul intentions on his part, times just weren't in his favor.

Maybe it really does boil down to drive and "survival of the fittest." But a good deal can easily cut out survivers. It's a vicous cycle.

 

[Shadera]

My apologies for going off topic here Deb, but I'd love to get a group of people together who would be interested in sharing things and bouncing ideas off one another. I think a group like that would have a lot of value for people who genuinely want to learn and better their own experience with these animals.

I am relatively new, but what I have done along the way is research - forums, talking to breeders, and reading books, applied some of the ideas I thought might work for me, and then have modified some stuff even beyond that. A lot of this is common sense. I remember hearing a breeder say once, that you have to be a student of the serpent. There is much you can learn just by observing these guys, but I see so many just toss a pair together before they really have had much experience with even keeping them as pets. This is my fourth year building a serious collection (after having owned balls on and off since the early 90's), and I am just now getting into my first "real" breeding season.

Anyhoo, back to the regularly scheduled program.

I think it's time to be more selective with our buyers too. I'm tired of people thinking they can bully sellers into this or that. If we (as a group) could stop feeding that mentality it would disappear. But unfortunately, it's like it used to be with the truckers. Can't get everyone to unite. For anything.

 

[Lucille]

VERY SLIM FEW .

Watch it, bud. Some of us are not so slim

However, every person you help to get on the right track is your competition. So is it better to help those in need or shun those in need?

There are stories about Rockefeller, and how he was a very nice person, but merciless in dealing with his competitors. I don't know if I could be like that.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Watch it, bud. Some of us are not so slim


There are stories about Rockefeller, and how he was a very nice person, but merciless in dealing with his competitors. I don't know if I could be like that.

I don't think it's much about being "merciless" or "shunning competition," Some of the breeders popping up, simply do not know how to accept advice gracefully. Someone else will come in and dispute another's advice instead of saying something simple like, "Here's another option, too." Some people simply offer bad advice and there's someone that wants to help trying to correct both of them...never-ending mess.

Then, there's always someone that wants to jump in and defend someone or someone elses way, instead of just letting people offer advice to the person and let the person shift though the advice and take it or leave it.

Frankly, I save my energy for arguing on the BOI, I am not interested in arguing with someone that doesn't want my advice or some one that wants to play "One upmanship"

 

[deborahbroadus]

Count me IN!

My apologies for going off topic here Deb, but I'd love to get a group of people together who would be interested in sharing things and bouncing ideas off one another. I think a group like that would have a lot of value for people who genuinely want to learn and better their own experience with these animals.

I am relatively new, but what I have done along the way is research - forums, talking to breeders, and reading books, applied some of the ideas I thought might work for me, and then have modified some stuff even beyond that. A lot of this is common sense. I remember hearing a breeder say once, that you have to be a student of the serpent. There is much you can learn just by observing these guys, but I see so many just toss a pair together before they really have had much experience with even keeping them as pets. This is my fourth year building a serious collection (after having owned balls on and off since the early 90's), and I am just now getting into my first "real" breeding season.

Anyhoo, back to the regularly scheduled program.

I think it's time to be more selective with our buyers too. I'm tired of people thinking they can bully sellers into this or that. If we (as a group) could stop feeding that mentality it would disappear. But unfortunately, it's like it used to be with the truckers. Can't get everyone to unite. For anything.

 

[mikeyt]

I'd like to first say that I agree with Deb and Shadera on all of this. Honesty and integrity are not the only two things missing from todays reptile industry.

I dont generally like to comment like this on here, because as a general rule none of us can barely win a disagreement with our other halves (which only involves 2 people), why on earth would anyone think they can win an argument here (with thousands of opinions). Hence, why Deb chooses to save energy and not argue on here. LOL

But here I go, lets face it, old school is gone (with the exception of the few of us still practicing it), and the new school is in session. Filled with scammers, quick money makers, backyard breeders, fly by nighters and the list goes on.

BUT, it is alot of us (the breeders) who are at faught for what is going on today. We have allowed the prices and the values of our animals to drop, not the economy, not the guy next door, but US., as well as those who continue to support and go for the cheap prices and junk quality of the backyard breeder and fly by nighter.

So until we all do the same as Deb, and learn to selectively choose who we support and buy from, the garbage and the crap will remain. Until then, we will have to continue to listen to all the whiners out there who got stiffed because they wanted the better deal.

You go Deb, 100%

 

[hhmoore]

It seems like some people are on here every day, laying out opinions, chastising others, and bumping numerous for sale ads... but very few of these people are answering questions in the discussion or help forums.

Some of those people have done their time fielding questions and giving assistance in the forums. Heck, that is largely how I built my online reputation when I got back into breeding. It doesn't matter how much you give, the demand just continues to grow. It doesn't matter how many times, or in how many ways, you answer the same question; it will continue to be asked, over and over, as if nobody had ever wondered that before. It gets old; and, as life goes on, people decide to focus their energies on other things.

 

[KelliH]

I'd like to first say that I agree with Deb and Shadera on all of this. Honesty and integrity are not the only two things missing from todays reptile industry.

I dont generally like to comment like this on here, because as a general rule none of us can barely win a disagreement with our other halves (which only involves 2 people), why on earth would anyone think they can win an argument here (with thousands of opinions). Hence, why Deb chooses to save energy and not argue on here. LOL

But here I go, lets face it, old school is gone (with the exception of the few of us still practicing it), and the new school is in session. Filled with scammers, quick money makers, backyard breeders, fly by nighters and the list goes on.

BUT, it is alot of us (the breeders) who are at faught for what is going on today. We have allowed the prices and the values of our animals to drop, not the economy, not the guy next door, but US., as well as those who continue to support and go for the cheap prices and junk quality of the backyard breeder and fly by nighter.

So until we all do the same as Deb, and learn to selectively choose who we support and buy from, the garbage and the crap will remain. Until then, we will have to continue to listen to all the whiners out there who got stiffed because they wanted the better deal.

You go Deb, 100%

Those people have always been in this business, just like all other types of businesses. What made it much more obvious is the internet.

The majority of folks I've met in this business are wonderful people. There will always be scammers around, but lucky for us we have more resources these days, like this website, to expose them.