Hets, paperwork and records

DAND

DAND

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Well like the title says: hets, paperwork and records.

I have posted a few questions directed to the seller, the buyer and then to everyone including the sellers and buyers.

When selling hets, how do you provide proof?

When buying hets, what have you received as proof?

What do you think should be the standard for selling hets?
 
Ugh.... hets :)

This is just my opinion and it is as follows.

When selling hets I include a print out with the snake including a photo of the snake being sold, BOTH parents and documentation of the clutch.

Example:

Het Pied Male #01-005
Hatched 5-17-2010
(photo of snake being sold)

Parents
Pied Male
(Photo of male)

Het Pied Female
(photo of female)

Clutch ratio
7 eggs: 1.1 pieds 3.2 het pieds
(photo of full clutch)

Now I know not every breeder can take the time to do something like that. When buying hets I look for a few things:

Does the seller have any visuals of the morphs he is selling het for?

If not what documentation/guarantee is provided?

If seller has no visuals or proof and the documentation/guarantee is shoddy or nonexistent, then I move on.

If the seller has a very good reputation (example NERD, VPI, or other VERY well known breeders) then I will make exceptions to the documentation.

Also if the entire clutch is present and for sale (let's say corn snakes) and I can see anery, amel, and stripe then I may buy one of the normals knowing that I've seen the clutch and it's most likely a het.

Price also plays a big factor when I am looking at hets. If I am paying $1000 for a het "New gene X" ball python then I will look for more proof since it's new rare morph that not many average joe might have. If I see Jimmy McVendor down the row selling "het gene X" for $200 I really have my doubts about the legitimacy of those hets.

Hets are in many ways a calculated risk. You have to know going in that there is a little bit of luck being tested. You may hit the genetic lottery or you may get a big pile of normals.
 
I keep it simple.

1. I provide documentation with my brand having a clear picture of the animal with Identifying Marks, wording guaranteeing that the animal is 100% Het for (insert morph here), and my signature at the bottom and date.

I keep a copy of this documentation so that if the buyer has poor luck (he shouldn't) after several tries, I can identify the animal as one of mine.

2. When buying Hets, I only buy from established breeders or someone that I know and trust.

3. I think the Standard should be at least documentation such as mine or Autumn's so that the buyer has some recourse (if only being able to post on the BOI the evidence and his own records showing repeat failures to prove even when paired with a visual).

Also, if the seller states "Purchased from so and so, and I have documentation" then I believe that the documentation should be posted in the AD next to the animal so that people can make immediate comparisons and call the originator of the snake for verification.
 
DAND said:
When selling hets, how do you provide proof?
Click to expand...

I've never provided proof or been asked for any. You either trust me or you don't.
Should a buyer request photo documentation I'm sure I could fix some up, but unless they're not planning to breed it, they really don't need it.

DAND said:
When buying hets, what have you received as proof?
Click to expand...

I did receive some paperwork on some hets back in 2003 or 2004 from a breeder (his policy, I didn't ask for it), no idea where that paperwork is. Aside from that I've never received anything, I only buy from breeders I trust.

DAND said:
What do you think should be the standard for selling hets?
Click to expand...

The standard should be non reproducible paperwork or none at all. If the paperwork can be duplicated with a scanner and photoshop, then it is essentially worthless.
So far I've never seen any paperwork that was worth the stick of firewood it was printed on. I could put the pic of any snake on it with 15 or 20 minutes on the computer.

I suppose certain pics that included a hand written note positioned so that it would be difficult to replace the pic of the snake would be adequate. However, I'm of the opinion that original paperwork, if it is to be provided, should be embossed with a raised imprint, similar to a notary stamp, that was positioned over both the picture and the signature. That would make it virtually impossible to reproduce.
Aside from that my opinion is paperwork is meaningless, buy hets from breeders who you personally can take at their word.
If you don't know me or don't feel you can trust me, don't buy hets from me.
No sort of paperwork would cause me to buy a het from someone I didn't already trust, and if I trust them I don't need paperwork.
 
Clay Davenport said:
Aside from that my opinion is paperwork is meaningless, buy hets from breeders who you personally can take at their word.
If you don't know me or don't feel you can trust me, don't buy hets from me.
No sort of paperwork would cause me to buy a het from someone I didn't already trust, and if I trust them I don't need paperwork.
Click to expand...

A very good point.

I might could see that some breeders would like to have that documentation for tracking the genetics of an animal.... but if you dont trust me enough to buy a het without some sort of paperwork... then why should the paperwork make you trust me more.

Anyone can put anything on paper and it wouldnt mean nothing.... what I mean by this is.... lets say I put a photo of a normal BP on the paper.. .and say it came from a cross between an albino and a het albino. How do you really know?

The paperwork should not be there to make you trust me... the paperwork should be there to show lineage and nothing else.
 
What if I fell on hard times and had to sell a.....


1056g adult 100% het pied female that I bought from so and so. If I dont have any paper work, and not much of a of a sellers rep, than original papers are needed for unknown people build a rep. JMO

And to answer the original question Ive only recieved paper work once, from Jimi Reed. I was satisfied with it.

I think it helps to have the papers. But yea its easy to doctor up some fake ones.

kinda six to one half a dozen to other..
 
I agree with the above. I've bought a few second hand hets and I felt more comfortable with paperwork that could be confirmed by the snake's original breeder.

I like the idea of the signature and stamp covering part of the picture.

Any tips for software or a template that would simplify making guarantees for hets you've produced?
 
I have quite a few hets that I don't have paperwork for...I bought from people I know personally, so I never asked for it. The hets that I do have paperwork for, all I have is a photo of the snake, a statement that it's guaranteed to be 100% het for [morph],and it's signed by the breeder.

I haven't sold any hets yet, so I haven't decided what to do about paperwork exactly as of right now....
 
MagickalMorphs said:
I agree with the above. I've bought a few second hand hets and I felt more comfortable with paperwork that could be confirmed by the snake's original breeder.

I like the idea of the signature and stamp covering part of the picture.

Any tips for software or a template that would simplify making guarantees for hets you've produced?
Click to expand...

I use MSWord.:D
 
If I were buying hets, personally I would want the option of paperwork. If i'm buying from someone fairly well known (fauna wise) chances are I wouldn't ask for the papers. If they aren't well known, it just makes you feel a little bit better about buying them. Even if the paperwork is relitively easy to reproduce or fake, I keep records of proof of purchase when I buy online. With my reciept with the sellers name and paper with pictures of the parents and snake and a signiture, if I got burned it would be difficult to dispute.
 
When it comes to selling hets, I provide what the parents were in writing via emails or pms. Also, my web site contains pictures of breeding pairs doing the "deed" and to the side what the predicted offspring could be. If some one wants actual printed documents, I'll do so and send it when I ship. People that know me trust me. So I've only been asked a few times to offer proof.

As far as receiving proof of hets, I've only had it sent to me voluntarily by one breeder. But normally I don't ask for it. If I am uncomfortable with a seller and the way they answer my questions, I'll simply not buy from them.

Here's my problem with "proof"-any one can fake it. For the most part, people are honest and aren't out to scam people. But you always have that handful that are. Just because you get pictures of 2 snakes and it's written they are het this or that, doesn't mean they are. Then 3-5 yrs down the road you breed them together and find out their normals, it's too late. This is where researching the seller, places like the BOI and asking tons of questions come in handy. Just my .02 worth. LOL
 
I personally don't care if I get paperwork or not because If I buy hets I do so from people I know or have some history in the industry. I have purchased a few hets from breeders and I have only recieved paperwork from Michael Cole and JD Constrictors. I have only sold a 3 100% hets all three where sold with the origonal photo id paperwork they came with from the origonal breeder.

I have only produced 50% and 66% hets myself so I don't give paperwork but I am more than happy to show pics of the parents and clutch with visuals in it. Also I get email addys for my customers most the time and I got to email a customer just a few weeks ago to let her know her 50% het was now upgraded to a 66% het because her mother proved out.
 
Paperwork really is largely just a feel good measure. I can think of a couple of instances, offhand, where people were providing paperwork for animals they had purchased for resale...when they not only didn't get any with the animals, they didn't know the name of the vendor (let alone the breeder). If paperwork is THAT meaningless, and easy to produce, is there really any sense to it?

With many species, hets are traded commonly, without any sort of verification other than the word of the seller. Paperwork is more common with BPs, because picture ID's can often confirm that a snake in hand is that same snake. That isn't always the case with other species. To the best of my knowledge, I don't have any het for anything BPs...but I will be producing hets for one of my projects. Very few of those will be made available, but the breeding, egg laying, and hatching will be well documented. I doubt I will provide paperwork...but I will provide certain pictures that a) I will easily identify as my own, and b) will not be posted online. If the animals should be later sold, I will be able to confirm those pictures.

Of the hets I HAVE received paperwork for (3 snakes), I considered the paperwork essentially useless - one didn't include a picture of the snake I purchased, and the other two didn't show anything significant about the color/pattern that could be used to positively identify it years later.
 
Personally I prefer Not to deal with Hets as the PaperWork can be forged altered and so on
Yes its a bad way to think of it But with the scammers lurking around Its hard to tell whats actually Het and whats not...
If for some reason I purchase buy or aquire a het I ask for several things to make me feel more comfortable about the transaction.
1. Pics of the Parents ( with a Pic of the parents Locked together)
Yes I want seprate pics one of each parent and one or 2 of the lock to varify the snakes are the same.. Youd be surprised how many times I get reply emails and there not even the same snakes LoL

2. Photo Id of the Snake and unusual markings colorings noted as well as Hatch Date and the morphs of the parnets with pics of the parents ( Not nessacary for the pics of the parents)

3. I only deal with people I can trust This is more than likely the groundbreaker Yes I will deal with people if the information I request is provided and everything checks out
But In most cases I'll spend the extra few bucks and buy from someone I know or know I can Trust and then the Paperwork is really not needed just a bonus for me to save the headche down the line if I go to sell the snake in question as paperwork does help support the fact that the Het in Question is the Snake I have available
 
Cp3_Pythons said:
If for some reason I purchase buy or aquire a het I ask for several things to make me feel more comfortable about the transaction.
1. Pics of the Parents ( with a Pic of the parents Locked together)
Yes I want seprate pics one of each parent and one or 2 of the lock to varify the snakes are the same..
Click to expand...


Then you better stay out of the corn world... those are some quicky locks... and in most cases I never witness locks... but I get eggs later down the line.
 
RidgeTop Reptiles said:
Then you better stay out of the corn world... those are some quicky locks... and in most cases I never witness locks... but I get eggs later down the line.
Click to expand...


:rofl: :rofl: Thanks for the heads Up I ( Not to be rude nor disrespectful to anyone keeping corns) at this point in time have no intrest in dealing with Corns. IDK They just dont do it for me I have seen a handful that are Beautiful If I did do corns Id get one of them and just one
 
Its all good Clarence... Just giving you a heads up... if you expect the same that you do from balls with corns... your gonna be dissapointed. I think I might get one lock a year on camera.... but I do document who goes in with who... and unlike balls... I dont rotate multiple males in with females. If eggs were produced... I know who the daddy is.
 
No I wouldnt expect the same as there diffrent species
And thats GOOD to know as some breeders dont do the same... and rotate them Im sure of it...
 
I don't do paperwork for Hets. If they are lower end baby hets like ghosts and Albinos I sell them off as normals or I may package a bunch of various possible hets into one package and sell them whole sale. Some of the possible double morph stuff I sell in pairs, trio's, or all extra from a clutch in one package. I make sure people know they are possibles which means they are pretty much going to Vegas and rolling the dice. (Better odds on the snakes, but none the less a gamble.) A lot of the het stuff would cost more in ink and photo paper than you are selling them for.

Have not sold any of my proven breeder hets and not sure how I will go about that in the future. Probably sell most with off spring in a package.
 
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