I'M BOYCOTTING NAPLES ZOO

[Tiger Lilly]

And this is why:
I was planning on taking a trip to a zoo in the next week or so. I like to visit zoos and state parks to take photos now & then. So...I'm on on-line, checking out the Florida zoos. Been to Lowery Park in Tampa a few times, been to Central Florida Zoo in Sanford, so I'm thinking about checking out the Naples Zoo.
I'm checking out the website, it's looking good, I'm liking what I see...then I get to this page:

http://www.caribbeangardens.com/Visitor_Info/zoo-events/alligatorbay.html

I'm scrolling down the page, checking out the pictures, doing some reading...and then I see this photo, which, in itself is not adorable by any means...
View attachment 83810



but it's the caption that made my blood boil:

"Burmese pythons don't make good pets. So many former pets have been released they are believed to be reproducing in the Everglades. This unlucky python finds itself in the jaws of an alligator where it was photographed by Mike Mercier."

So, join me, if you will, in getting the word out about this zoo. Don't just tell all your reptile friends, TELL ALL YOUR FRIENDS! Post it on other forums if you feel as strongly as I do about this!

I am going to give it a few days to see how much interest this thread generates, then I'm going to e-mail them with a link to it.
I think they need to know how irresponsible that one little statement is!

 

[Shadera]

Neither do kids, but people still have them.

Obviously written by a biased person.

 

[akaangela]

My question is how did the snake get in with the gator? I don't see any zoo putting the 2 togeather, because you don't know who would win the fight. Also, very unfortunately, there are enough bad snake owners that I think they are trying to make a point. I agree most people should NOT own such a big snake because they don't realize how much a commitment a snake like that is. Sadly it IS a big problem in FL.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Its probably a photo of a wild alligator..... From that quote, i dont get any hint that its a captive gator being fed a snake. But IF it is maybe it was a dead snake that they fed? who knows.... lots of people feed reptiles to reptiles, i see nothing, inherently wrong with it, so long as its humane and part of an animals natural diet.

What exactly is the reason why you are boycotting this zoo? Because of a photograph and a teeny tiny paragraph about how burms are not good pets? Cause.... its pretty dang true IMHO.

The paragraph about burms not making good pets? Frankly, i gotta agree, for most people, they DO NOT make good pets. I know for sure they would not make a good pet for me!!! and i know several more people that say "I want a burm" who SHOULD NOT own one. They are Large animals, that need LARGE enclosures, and a PROPER setup to contain them. They require several people to be there, when larger, to ensure proper safety when feeding/cleaning/doing anything with the animals.

They are not for the average joe. And i will stand firmly behind that opinion, because I dont want to see another child killed because of ignorance. or another twentysomething girl killed by one of these ( In that case a retic ) large constrictors due to ignorant handling practices.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

I greatly disagree with boycotting the zoo in its entirety. I think perhaps you should contact them regarding their wording.

It sounds TO ME, like they are merely trying to comment on the releasing issue. The only problem I see is the general statement of burms do not make good pets.

If they merely added the words "for most people", I would see no issue whatsoever.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

I would think that as a zoo, rather than showing their partiality & making a blanket statement like that, they should be sending out educational information. As a facility with the means, as well as the knowledge, they have the capability to reach so many people with GOOD information. By 'good' I do not mean pro-burm. I mean good, bad or indifferent, to EDUCATE the public.
Alicia--I don't disagree with you that SOME people shouldn't have them at all. But some people shouldn't have kids either...that's a different rant, though.
I've had burms as pets before, though, and I do have to disagree that they don't make good pets...(Brandi) for most people.
There are other things inherently wrong with just that photo and caption.
Angela--People turning their burms loose is not the only way they got there; while I don't know if other hurricanes contributed to it, Hurricane Andrew certainly did.
If the gator was a wild one, why would they use that picture on their web site? I also have no qualms about reptiles eating other reptiles. It is a part of life and it's called a 'food chain' for a reason.
If the photo was one of their captive alligators and the burm made its way there somehow and lost the battle for its life--why not say that?!

"Naples Zoo is a 501(c)(3) charitable institution and nationally accredited zoo. Its operations are not subsidized by taxes."
I do not feel the need to subsidize their institution with my charitable donation if they feel the need to be biased and not educate the public in an impartial manner.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that's how I feel!

 

[Seamus Haley]

I would think that as a zoo, rather than showing their partiality & making a blanket statement like that, they should be sending out educational information. As a facility with the means, as well as the knowledge, they have the capability to reach so many people with GOOD information. By 'good' I do not mean pro-burm. I mean good, bad or indifferent, to EDUCATE the public.

Yeah! They should put some information up letting the public know that burms have formed an invasive breeding population in Florida!

Oh wait...

I've had burms as pets before, though, and I do have to disagree that they don't make good pets...(Brandi) for most people.

Had? Not "currently have" but "had" Interesting. So, what happened to your burms? How many did you used to have and why haven't you got them anymore?

There are other things inherently wrong with just that photo and caption.

No there aren't. There's not a thing wrong with that photo OR it's caption. You're just experiencing a knee jerk response to a legitimate and honestly worded animal issue because you happen to *like* the species that's become a problem.

If your knee jerks too much, you might swing it up and kick yourself in the mouth, where your foot will get stuck.

Angela--People turning their burms loose is not the only way they got there; while I don't know if other hurricanes contributed to it, Hurricane Andrew certainly did.

I had to look up the date on Andrew. 1992, it certainly did contribute to quite a few loose animals that didn't belong in the area. It was hardly the start of the issues though, Florida has been reporting breeding populations of invasive species that are seen in the pet trade since the seventies. There are numerous causes; the fact the state is a fairly big shipping hub for anything coming in from South and Central America has meant stowaways, hurricanes have damaged buildings and allowed the escape of animals, people have loosed their pets both intentionally and accidently.

Plus uh... those animals released by storms, where do you think they were released *from* exactly? Pet dealers and pet owners. With less of a market for burms, there would be less of them to be released and less of a problem.

'course the state has instituted stricter (although not perfect) inspections of incoming shipments and some measures have been taken to contain any wildlife that does make it in to the immediate area.

And it's tough to prevent natural forces through legislation or human action. You could try introducing a "No more hurricanes" law but I doubt the storms would obey it.

Which leaves pet releases as the most controllable factor that has contributed to invasive species in the state. So when a zoo, an educational institution says "don't release your burms" it seems to be a pretty decent step towards the whole public education thing.

And burms do make crappy pets for most people. The overwhelming majority of people who have them are irresponsible and the overwhelming majority of burms come to some kind of unnatural or preventable end. The only reason they aren't regulated more strictly in more areas is because of their popularity- which can be tied in to a rematively small but definite source of taxable sales. They can live thirty-thirty five years... how many do you think actually reach that age? They pretty much WILL break ten-twelve feet as a given, how many do you think actually manage to surpass that size?

This isn't a zoo saying "Ban burms!" it's a zoo saying "Burms are a species that has been the cause of and target of problems as a result of their captivity. They don't make great pets and they have been released, where they're causing damage to the local ecosystems."

If the gator was a wild one, why would they use that picture on their web site?

Probably because they take that whole educational institution thing a little more seriously than you do and wanted to share some information with the general public. You might have considered that if you weren't throwing wild, wide blind punches at a target just because they relayed a legitimate criticism of a situation that has developed largely due to the pet trade.

"Naples Zoo is a 501(c)(3) charitable institution and nationally accredited zoo. Its operations are not subsidized by taxes."
I do not feel the need to subsidize their institution with my charitable donation if they feel the need to be biased and not educate the public in an impartial manner.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that's how I feel!

Yeah well, in this case, I feel you're off your nut. There wasn't anything remotely biased about what was written there.

And trust me... as a guy who has friends and aquaintences that straddle the line between the pet industry, the zoo industry and various sciences... there can be bias. Heavy, angry bias. This is not an example of it. The zoo bias generally shows up with more of a "The next jackass who dumps their stupid eight foot burm off in front of the zoo in a cardboard box is getting hit in the face with a pith helmet."

 

[kmurphy]

I don't think it would come as a surprise that, in general, zoo people do not think exotics should be kept by private individuals. Even though much of the advances in reptile husbandry, and related products, have come from non-zoo keepers.

They really didn't say anything that was too off-the-wall, especially from their point of view.

 

[rosebud945]

And trust me... as a guy who has friends and aquaintences that straddle the line between the pet industry, the zoo industry and various sciences... there can be bias. Heavy, angry bias. This is not an example of it. The zoo bias generally shows up with more of a "The next jackass who dumps their stupid eight foot burm off in front of the zoo in a cardboard box is getting hit in the face with a pith helmet."

Rescue/rehab people say the same thing! Wanna know the two most common types of snakes in rescue facilities? Burms and Balls, the burms because they grow so big that the majority of people can't or aren't allowed to house them by landlords or city ordinances without a license, they can no longer afford to feed them, or the zoo calls and begs the rescue people to come get yet another dumped burm. The balls because they get stressed, go anorexic, and it is cheaper to dump them on animal control, the zoo, or a rescue person than take them to a vet.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

For the most opinionated

Had? Not "currently have" but "had" Interesting. So, what happened to your burms? How many did you used to have and why haven't you got them anymore?

I had 2; I lost one to an RI and the other I sold to a guy I used to sell rabbits to for his retic. And before you ask WHY I sold it--I was a single mother at the time and it was strictly a matter of finances (or lack thereof).

If your knee jerks too much, you might swing it up and kick yourself in the mouth, where your foot will get stuck.

Maybe so...wouldn't be the first time, doubtful it'll be the last. I'd rather have my foot stuck in my mouth than my head stuck up my ass, anyday.

[/UOTE]You might have considered that if you weren't throwing wild, wide blind punches at a target just because they relayed a legitimate criticism of a situation that has developed largely due to the pet trade.[/QUOTE]

So, what are you saying? I'm not allowed to voice my opinion? My opinion doesn't matter? So you feel that they are BLIND punches? So, that's YOUR opinion, and I respect that. I'm not downing ANYONE for not agreeing with me. IT IS WHAT IT IS. You don't agree, fine. I'm not the type that is going to let you or anyone else dissuade me from how I feel. And no hard feelings--because I respect that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether they coincide with mine or not.

Yeah well, in this case, I feel you're off your nut.

BULLY FOR YOU! You have an opinion--and I'm not going to argue the point BECAUSE it's your opinion. Besides...Lilly's got Balls...so yeah, there's a chance I'm gonna be 'off my nut' now & again.

So, in conclusion, let me just say that I respect everyone AND their opinions that have been posted here. That's what free speech is all about. That's what being an individual is all about. I'm not going to argue with anyone about what I've posted--I'm not going to argue with anyone about what they have posted.
You don't agree with my stance, fine. Have your say. It's not going to change my feelings, regardless of the fact that it may not be the "popular" stance. I'm a big girl with a thick skin...

 

[rosebud945]

I don't think it would come as a surprise that, in general, zoo people do not think exotics should be kept by private individuals. Even though much of the advances in reptile husbandry, and related products, have come from non-zoo keepers.

This is simply not true. I have worked closely with the zoo here in Houston, as a wildlife rehabber and as an exotics rehabber/hobbyist. Zoo people don't begrudge hobbyists their exotic pets, but they do believe that some exotics are better left to larger facilities to house and keep

for the most part

because these animals are typically NOT properly housed or they end up as problem animals that either injure people or injure the environment. If you are not one of these irresponsible people, then great, but call your local animal control, your local zoo, or your local rescue and ask them how they feel about the readily available supply of really large snakes to the general public, and as Seamus suggests, you will get a conditioned response based on the MANY large snakes that are dumped on their doorstep and on the difficulty of finding a proper home or facility for them.

I got a call from my animal control a few months ago. They went out and picked up a 5.5 foot burm from an abandoned apartment. It was housed in a FORTY LONG AQUARIUM! They wanted to fine the former tenant for keeping a snake that exceeds the city's ordinance that bans any snake at or longer than 6ft. It would be easier to bust her for that than for animal bandonment, but the snake was a half an inch shy. It is this kind of thing that makes zoo and rescue people think that the majority of people should not be allowed or encouraged to own large breed snakes. Fortunately, I found a spot for the snake in a trusted rescue that had a huge tank available because I can't house a snake that big at my place and I won't cram it into a 40 breeder.

I know zoo keepers who actually breed certain kinds of exotics and sell them on the side, but only to carefully screened buyers. Zoo people are not zealots who are against the idea of keeping exotic pets.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Troi, offhand I can't recall who it is but someone on this site has a signature along the lines of...

You are not entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your informed opinion.

In this case, your opinion is anything but informed. You're all emotional response and no thinking things through. You're leaping to wildly inaccurate conclusions and painting this zoo as an enemy of herpetoculture because of a picture caption which noted that burms have been released and formed an invasive breeding population- many of them dumped by folks who just didn't want to deal with the animal anymore- all of which is true and well evidenced.

Save it for actual enemies. If you go around mugging anyone who mentions the name of a reptile, you're just going to end up as a Jack Thompson-esque figure.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

As a general statement to the public who is looking at cool big snakes on display... "Burms don't make good pets" might well be geared towards telling people not to rush out and buy one of the really COOL snakes they just saw.
People who really get facinated by the snakes they are seeing, will look into them more, find others who keep them(hopefully responsibly) and eventually get a enclosure and a snake.

Random Joe who looks at the really big snake, and thinks "Hey, I could get me one of them big snakes!" will look at the sign and maybe think "Well if they don't make good pets.. forget it!". One less idiot with a giant snake.

It all depends on your definition of "pet". To some owners, burms are wonderful pets, that they love, and care for, and pet and share their homes with. To others, they are just a adornment until they get tired of it.

I think most of the giants need special people willing to put the time, money and effort into keeping them properly. But I see more and more of a division, where the giant boid keepers are getting treated like 'red headed stepkids', because they are the first ones targeted and the biggest target because they are "big scary snakes" to the public, and because of the burms in the everglades.

That's really unfair. Just because A giant owner doesn't keep it properly, and it kills a kid, doesn't mean that the other thousand owners in the same state are NOT GREAT REPTILE KEEPERS. They own their giants, and house them properly, and we'll never hear a bad word about one of their snakes on the news. But some herpers are willing to throw them to the wolves, saying "See! They are irresponsible", acting exactly how the public is acting towards ALL snake owners.

Back to the OT, I wouldn't boycott a zoo just because of a phrase on one sign. Especially when the sign doesn't say "No one should be able to own these", it just says they don't make great pets. Shrug. Why toss the entire zoo, just for stating something that is "some times" pretty darned true?

 

[Tiger Lilly]

Seamus,
At this point, although you were "kind" enough to do it in a pm, the fact that you felt the need to stoop to calling me an "ignorant, snarky bitch" because you do not agree with my opinion or feelings on a subject has relegated you to the "doesn't-deserve-any-more-of-my-time" group. Buh-bye.

As for the rest of the posters, I still stand by my thoughts on the matter, and I appreciate the fact that no one else has felt the need to resort to name-calling.
Carry on with posting your opinions, regardless of what they are. As I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I still respect the differences in our opinions...

 

[RJK890]

Hey,

Look on the bright side...

At least they used the photo of the Gator eating the Burm and not the one of the 13' 7" Burm that ate the 6' Gator, and then "exploded."

I am so tired of hearing people say, "Burms have no natural predators in the everglades, and even eat the Florida Alligator."

Whenever someone tells me that, I always ask them, "What do you think happens when the Gator is 13' - 14' and the Burm is only 6' or less?"

I do agree that Burms do not make great pets for everybody.
The same thing can be said about any other animal!

The fact is that not every person makes a good pet owner.