Bad Guy Ruth Croghan R.Ph./rsepiphyte/www.largepaws.com

[KevinOpp]

nothing horrific here, just a report of (yet another) seller who said the chameleon for sale was mine, and then sold it to someone else while ignoring my repeated emails.

in brief; a gravid Furcifer campani was up for sale in a classified ad. i replied as soon as i spotted the ad and was told that the initial buyer backed out and she was mine if i wanted her. i responded with some suggestions for making the transaction happen more quickly due to the female’s gravid state. no response. i re-emailed the next day and later received a reply that she was sold to someone else. when pressed for why she sold it from under me she replied that the other buyer was a “better fit” and she did not like the “terms” that i had put forth.

as a breeder and veterinarian i certainly understand that some buyers may be a better fit for a certain pet (although i do not think that i would have been a poor fit), but i don’t think anyone can argue that it is just rude and wrong to tell someone a sale is theirs but then sell to someone else instead without any notice or response to me. i will follow this post with the emails, and you can decide for yourself if i seemed unreasonable or set in stone regarding my attempt to speed up her shipping. it would have only been to the seller’s and certainly the chameleon’s benefit. finally, apparently she also sells puppies. i do not know if this is her behavior regarding puppy sales, but caution would be advised.

kevin oppenheimer, dvm




From: "Dr. Kevin Oppenheimer" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: campani
Date: April 9, 2013 10:32:44 PM EDT
To: "Ruth Croghan R.Ph." <[email protected]>

“terms”? my lord, it’s not as if i set anything in stone, just gave some ideas to move this along quicker! if you would have responded to my email and said that you didn’t want to do that, then i would have overnighted you your money since WU isn’t an option for me.

it’s your call who you want to sell your chams to, but it is definitely lousy form to tell someone that a chameleon “is theirs” and then sell to someone else without even getting back to me. it was just plain rude.

o-



On Apr 9, 2013, at 10:26 PM, "Ruth Croghan R.Ph." <[email protected]> wrote:
I didn't like your terms and i felt the other party was a better fit.
Ruth Croghan R.Ph.



On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Dr. Kevin Oppenheimer <[email protected]> wrote:
ok; then why on earth did you tell me she was mine since the other party
backed out? that’s a pretty cruddy thing to do to someone who has expressed
serious interest, sent several emails within hours of yours, and has been
trying to get my hands on this species.



On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Ruth Croghan R.Ph. <[email protected]>
wrote:
Sorry, she has already been sold. Ruth



On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Dr. Kevin Oppenheimer <[email protected]>
wrote:
hi folks,

just want to make sure you received my email yesterday; i’m re-sending it
from another account.

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Dr. Kevin Oppenheimer" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: campani
Date: April 8, 2013 7:29:37 PM EDT
To: "Ruth Croghan R.Ph." <[email protected]>

hi steve,

i’m definitely interested, just concerned with how gravid she looks (like
she’s about to pop!) and the time it will take for my payment to get to you
and then her shipped here. i certainly don’t want to stress her too heavily,
lose a clutch during shipping, or not give her enough time here to acclimate
prior to laying.

i never use Western Union but can send a business check/MO to you. if there
is any way at all to show my good faith by giving you a deposit now until
you receive the full amount, or based on my own recognizance, i would be
much happier to see her shipped ASAP this week to avoid my concerns above.
please let me know if there’s anything we can do; i also have a Fedex
account so that part could be billed to me, and depending on the weather i
usually prefer them to be held at the local World Fedex Center which i can
provide an address for. please let me know if we can speed this up with any
of those options.

kevin oppenheimer, dvm

************************
DrOs-TieDyedChameleons.com
Join the Chameleon Forum!




On Apr 8, 2013, at 3:36 PM, "Ruth Croghan R.Ph." <[email protected]>
wrote:
Kevin, first buyer backed out, LOL, always seems to happen. If you
want her she is yours and we can ship out this week if you can get the
payment to me in time. She is $245.00 and that includes shipping. I do not
accept paypal but i do accept postal money orders, Western Union,
cashiers check. She is WC and came in i believe in early March with 10
others. When i inquired she was the only remaining one so i went ahead
and purchased her. I have had her 3 1/2 weeks and noticed her girth
increasing as well as her appetite , she went through a shed last week
and low and behold began to show gravid coloration . I really have no
desire to raise them (offspring) but she is so colorful and easy to
take care of and am hoping i can sell her to someone who may have
access to more of them. If you are interested in purchasing her , My
mailing address is as follows:

Steve Croghan
216 N. Chadwick Road
Louisville, Ky. 40223

Slainte' Ruth and Steve Croghan



On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Dr. Kevin Oppenheimer
<[email protected]> wrote:
wow….just wow!!!

thankfully i’m breeding my lateralis, but campani and minor have long been on my wish list!!

consider me strongly interested if she’s not spoken for——what can you tell
me re: age/history/other clutches laid?

o-


************************
DrOs-TieDyedChameleons.com
Join the Chameleon Forum!

 

[NIGRO51]

I agree that it was a tad rude but unfortunately since no money was exchanged and only your feelings got hurt this doesnt really warrant a bad guy thread.

 

[KevinOpp]

I don't disagree, but according to the BOI terms there really wasn't another "category" to place this in. I did state in the first sentence that it wasn't a "horrific" situation.

With that being said and I have now voiced this issue to several other people, I'm getting told additional story after story re: the seller. I won't repeat it as its hearsay, but as before I do advise caution when dealing with this person.

 

[hhmoore]

I don't disagree, but according to the BOI terms there really wasn't another "category" to place this in. I did state in the first sentence that it wasn't a "horrific" situation.

It is rare that I feel compelled to comment on somebody's choice of BOI headings; and there isn't much point to posting in disagreement, anyway (hint, hint). However, since you state there wasn't another category to use, I'm going to interject that "Info" is a good option in situations like this. If you were upset enough to feel that a "Bad Guy" thread was warranted, so be it.

 

[KevinOpp]

And if the mods want to change it to an Info heading that's fine with me.

This is the fourth time something to this effect has occurred with me alone in the past two years. I've not posted anything regarding this type of situation before. However all we have is the BOI for these kinds of situations. If it takes making people publicaly uncomfortable to see their behavior online then my hope is that it will ultimately decrease the amount of folks who act the same way. I will continue to promote and set examples of taking the high ground rather than misleading someone or dashing their hopes, and I hope it's infectious. Buying from classifieds do not need to be fraught with these issues and I for one want to see it stopped.

The BOI rules really give a different idea for the Info heading, they give an example of someone having a sale. Perhaps there should be a milder slap on the wrist header such as "Warning". Either way I'm done with this issue for now and don't see the need to pick it apart further. The thread can be relabeled, modified or chucked completely; I have done what I thought was best for others and am ever glad I did so after receiving all of the PM's that were happy to see this person finally called out.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

I'd stand behind the bad guy title... I'm tired of people slipping and tripping on their word. In this day in age of competition and pricing all about the same, it ONLY comes down to that personal feeling of customer service. I'm glad this was posted . Thank you Doc!

 

[hhmoore]

And if the mods want to change it to an Info heading that's fine with me.

That doesn't happen - period

The BOI rules really give a different idea for the Info heading, they give an example of someone having a sale.

That was probably not the best example to give, as, IMO, that isn't a BOI topic...but "Info" is a broad heading, and can encompass a lot. (Keep in mind, those were written years ago)

The thread can be relabeled, modified or chucked completely

No, it can't...the only reason a thread would be removed is due to a rule/policy violation. We don't relabel, or otherwise modify posts (the exception being for certain specific violation). As I pointed out previously, other people's opinions of your choice of heading are fairly irrelevant. It wasn't my intent to create a separate side discussion, I was simply pointing out another option because you implied there wasn't another that fit..

Now, to the subject of the thread, I can see both sides.
As a customer, when I'm told "It's yours", I don't like being told "It's been sold"; so I can very much relate to your situation.
However, as a seller, I've often regretted not bailing on a sale when the buyer starts trying to change the terms. I realize that you were trying to expedite the process in the interest of the animal's well being (and that of the anticipated eggs). There's also the "first to pay" theory, and somebody might have made payment while you were trying to work out options...and that person could well have contacted them before you did)

As an aside, there could have been other reasons that they bailed on the deal; with "It's been sold" being the easiest out for them...but, of course, that is just conjecture from a jaded and suspicious person.

Regardless, your experience was a disappointing and frustrating one; and many of us appreciate the info.

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I honestly had no idea it was common or good practice to buy/sell gravid reptiles that need to be shipped. I thought it was considered bad... I mean with snakes I have always understood that they shouldn't be shipped while gravid for obvious reasons. Maybe it's different with other herps, but chameleons aren't known for being sturdy? Don't take my post as criticism... I genuinely am asking this as a question... people do this?

 

[KevinOpp]

I honestly had no idea it was common or good practice to buy/sell gravid reptiles that need to be shipped. I thought it was considered bad... I mean with snakes I have always understood that they shouldn't be shipped while gravid for obvious reasons. Maybe it's different with other herps, but chameleons aren't known for being sturdy? Don't take my post as criticism... I genuinely am asking this as a question... people do this?

I guess I'll dip back in for this as it's education which I am quite fond of.

it's terrible form. she should not be up for sale whatsoever. I can't post specifics of some of the PM's and emails that I've received regarding the seller but I am told that she is known as a flipper. one person pointed out that she had a wanted ad for this species almost exactly 1 month to the date that she put it up for sale.

if this wasn't a species that typically only appears every couple of years for sale that I have been trying to get my hands on, I would not have supported this. however, in my veterinary/outdoor FL breeder role I thought that if she was going to go somewhere, under my wing ASAP was her best case scenario. whereas the "better fit" that she is going to lives currently in 22 F weather.....so be it.

with all that being said it is very, very common for WC chams to come in to the states in a gravid condition. so it does happen that way, but I wouldn't ever sell one in that condition. Leading by example will continue to be my role.

o—

 

[Durante]

I guess I'll dip back in for this as it's education which I am quite fond of.

it's terrible form. she should not be up for sale whatsoever. I can't post specifics of some of the PM's and emails that I've received regarding the seller but I am told that she is known as a flipper. one person pointed out that she had a wanted ad for this species almost exactly 1 month to the date that she put it up for sale.

if this wasn't a species that typically only appears every couple of years for sale that I have been trying to get my hands on, I would not have supported this. however, in my veterinary/outdoor FL breeder role I thought that if she was going to go somewhere, under my wing ASAP was her best case scenario. whereas the "better fit" that she is going to lives currently in 22 F weather.....so be it.

with all that being said it is very, very common for WC chams to come in to the states in a gravid condition. so it does happen that way, but I wouldn't ever sell one in that condition. Leading by example will continue to be my role.

o—

As much as I agree with you in not supporting shipping an animal in that condition it doesn't justify the additional statements unless your willing to share the name of the 3rd party like the rules advise. opening this thread as a bad guy thread, not knowing it can not be deleted, & not disclosing the 3rd parties name not only makes people wonder if you actually looked over the rules of the BOI prior to posting but it also hurts the point your trying to make. I think your justified to be a little upset but dont that frustration hurt you own image.

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I guess I'll dip back in for this as it's education which I am quite fond of.

it's terrible form. she should not be up for sale whatsoever. I can't post specifics of some of the PM's and emails that I've received regarding the seller but I am told that she is known as a flipper. one person pointed out that she had a wanted ad for this species almost exactly 1 month to the date that she put it up for sale.

if this wasn't a species that typically only appears every couple of years for sale that I have been trying to get my hands on, I would not have supported this. however, in my veterinary/outdoor FL breeder role I thought that if she was going to go somewhere, under my wing ASAP was her best case scenario. whereas the "better fit" that she is going to lives currently in 22 F weather.....so be it.

with all that being said it is very, very common for WC chams to come in to the states in a gravid condition. so it does happen that way, but I wouldn't ever sell one in that condition. Leading by example will continue to be my role.

o—

Thanks!

I've changed quite a bit in my standings on certain things over the years, this being one of them. I can see, MAYBE, a snake or lizard changing hands while she is gravid, if it's in person, and it's done in a manner that doesn't cause great stress to the animal. I can't see shipping a gravid herp being very beneficial to her or her eggs at such a late stage in the gestation. I can definitely understand wanting to get a rare species of herp you have desperately sought out of the hands of a wholesaler ASAP, especially if you have experience that very well may save her life or that of her eggs.

 

[David Scarboro]

OP, You keep slipping in hints about 3rd party comments and manage to allude to what they are saying. Kind of a left hand way of circumventing the rules here. Bring these persons out and lets have at it. Or you can backpedal...

 

[LauraB]

Leading by example will continue to be my role

With all due respect, wouldn't that also extend to NOT supporting an alleged flipper, NOT purchasing an out-of-state gravid animal and NOT purchasing/shipping an animal as delicate as a WC cham that has only been in the seller's possession for 3 1/2 weeks?

I totally understand your desire to add a Jewelled to your collection. I saw her ads here and at another forum. I've kept chams for years, I occasionally breed my chams. I, too, would love to add a Jewelled to my collection. However, I saw how heavy she was and there was no way I wanted to be responsible for possible consequences of shipping an animal 1) in that condition and 2) not even acclimated in the seller's care.

I did see her March "wanted" ads possibly here, but for sure at another site I frequent, so that (for other readers) is not hearsay. Another reason I admired and desired, but did not act.

It's regretful the seller reneged on the deal. It's more regretful, IMO, that the seller wanted to flip this delicate animal because her gravid state was an unexpected inconvenience and could, with a clear conscience, ship her.

 

[chadharper]

And isnt it weird that when you say you wont send WU the communication ceases and the Cham is sold to another person?

I wouldnt put my money out there like that without a secure way to file a claim and get my money back if it were indeed a scam. Just saying.

 

[KORBIN5895]

And isnt it weird that when you say you wont send WU the communication ceases and the Cham is sold to another person?

I wouldnt put my money out there like that without a secure way to file a claim and get my money back if it were indeed a scam. Just saying.

I has the same thought about the way she requested the money.

 

[august quion]

Ok I'll post, I bought a 1 year old Nosy be male from Ruth about month ago, at first the no paypal thing bothered me but did a search and found no red flags, but can tell that she does buy and sell (flip as people call it). I requested some pics, she sent me a couple fired up, sleeping, not fired up, Sunday night. I was liking what I saw, went strait to the post office Monday morning got a postal money order with my paypal debit card took a picture of it and sent it overnight cost me an extra $10 but hey I wanted him that week, sent the pic to Ruth so she knew I was on it. Ruth had good communication through out this process and had the Cham in my possession Thursday morning at 10:00am packaged well and the Cham was and still is very healthy. My only issue is that she uses USPS express as her shipping carrier, IMO not as trustworthy as fedex. So all that said it was a pretty good transaction the nosy be does fire up blue/turquoise, dark green during warm up, and neon green/turquoise at night so her pics were accurate.

 

[Olimpia]

OK, I'm the third party person so I'll join in.

If you look through her history in the Chameleon Forum classifieds you can see more examples of how they buy animals and sell them a couple weeks to a couple months later at most, but I'm just going to post regarding the most relevant info.

I put up a Bradypodion transvaalense chameleon male for sale (because my only female died) on January 10, 2013, I wanted him to join someone else's breeding group. Ruth contacted me immediately and we set about paying for him and setting up shipping. Because it was so cold where she is we put off shipping until February 12 for February 13 arrival. I no longer have the text messages that we used to talk about it but if required I'm sure I can pull the shipping history out from the Fedex account that I used to pay.

Then, on February 20 (exactly 8 days after arriving on her doorstep) the male is up for sale again. (Screen shot #1, below). The older male she mentions is mine. Now, I'm of the mindset that an animal is yours when you buy it and you can rename them, sell them, or do whatever because it's your right now. But they're such a delicate species and it really left a very bitter taste in my mouth that I thought I was selling him to someone who already had some and would breed him, but instead turns around and sells him before he's even had time to settle in. (Also for A LOT more than I had him up for sale, which to me lends to the idea that they flip chameleons for profit)



#1

And in regards to Kevin's campani, here are screen shots (#2 and #3) that show when she made an ad asking for these chameleons in a trade and when she posted her up for sale. She could not have had this animal in their possession for more than 3 weeks, and for a WC gravid female especially, that's A LOT of moving around in a month. I guess she traded my male for the female in question.



#2

#3

Again, I believe that you're allowed to do whatever you want with your animals but this seems to be a pattern of behavior, where they take new animals and turn around and sell them (probably for more) very soon afterwards. I also just wanted to defend Kevin, since he's not making this up. But anyone thinking that when they sell to Ruth and Steve they are giving an animal a forever (or at least long-term) home, they might want to sell to someone else.

Again, to mirror Kevin, they aren't bad/horrible people, but I don't agree with their behavior regarding chameleons. Because for one shipping is stressful, and forcing an animal to be shipped 2-3 times in one month (like the WC campani probably did) is cruel and irresponsible in my book.

Olimpia Martinotti

 

[KevinOpp]

With all due respect, wouldn't that also extend to NOT supporting an alleged flipper, NOT purchasing an out-of-state gravid animal and NOT purchasing/shipping an animal as delicate as a WC cham that has only been in the seller's possession for 3 1/2 weeks?

I totally understand your desire to add a Jewelled to your collection. I saw her ads here and at another forum. I've kept chams for years, I occasionally breed my chams. I, too, would love to add a Jewelled to my collection. However, I saw how heavy she was and there was no way I wanted to be responsible for possible consequences of shipping an animal 1) in that condition and 2) not even acclimated in the seller's care.

I did see her March "wanted" ads possibly here, but for sure at another site I frequent, so that (for other readers) is not hearsay. Another reason I admired and desired, but did not act.

It's regretful the seller reneged on the deal. It's more regretful, IMO, that the seller wanted to flip this delicate animal because her gravid state was an unexpected inconvenience and could, with a clear conscience, ship her.

i had not seen the ads prior as you did, and had no history of her moving animals quickly. now i have that and so do others, and for that i am grateful to the BOI and exactly the reason i began the thread.

of course i knew that she apparently came in gravid from the sellers info, and thus thought that if she was going to sell this lizard, it would be in this lizard’s best interest to be shipped immediately to me in Florida where we are enjoying days identical to this lizard’s native range. i have an entire pharmacy at my disposal, cages ready to go, breeding setups laid out, etc. you were indicating that this wasn’t “leading by example”, and perhaps it’s not. perhaps it was just one expert stepping in and saying, “let me try to save this lizard’s and her potential offspring’s life”. that was my decision which i believe was in the animal’s best interest. i can look at that and hope that would be leading by example, versus seeing her sent to frigid weather or someone who just sees a pretty lizard.

 

[KevinOpp]

It's regretful the seller reneged on the deal. It's more regretful, IMO, that the seller wanted to flip this delicate animal because her gravid state was an unexpected inconvenience and could, with a clear conscience, ship her.

i agree completely. thus BOI to the rescue!

 

[KevinOpp]

As much as I agree with you in not supporting shipping an animal in that condition it doesn't justify the additional statements unless your willing to share the name of the 3rd party like the rules advise. opening this thread as a bad guy thread, not knowing it can not be deleted, & not disclosing the 3rd parties name not only makes people wonder if you actually looked over the rules of the BOI prior to posting but it also hurts the point your trying to make. I think your justified to be a little upset but dont that frustration hurt you own image.

i appreciate your feedback Durante, i truly do. as i looked over what i had typed i realized that i was going off-key somewhat, and have been thusly dinked a point for a rules infraction.

i have read the BOI rules many times in fact, and am very, very glad that the BOI exists. however, i would suggest that there are some updates and clarifications that should be made since it’s last update was 12/07. First, as i suggested in an earlier post, perhaps there should be something between “Bad Guy” and “Info” such as “Warning”, or “Poor Experience”. the examples given for info only discusses a sale or that someone got a shipment in of xx. i cannot be expected to see that and think that’s where this thread should belong.

Just as importantly, this section of the BOI wording still leaves me a little confused: "Opinions are acceptable as long as it is PLAINLY stated that you are stating an opinion. Facts are: dates, value of transactions, actual quoted conversations, and the like. Opinons are: YOUR interpretations of motives, business practices or impressions of the person with whom you had conversations with. Keep these FIRMLY in mind when you are posting your message. Proof is optional, but recommended if you would like to remove any doubts about the truth of what you are posting.." i do think that i supplied facts AND opinions. but unless i’m still missing it, i don’t see anywhere that it says 3rd party names must be revealed. so the "Proof is optional" phrase was something that i thought was best when i was receiving info from other people that have dealt with her in the past but did not give me any permission to repost their thoughts. so i did not include that optional proof.

so although i have read the BOI rules over and over, there still seem to be some grey areas that could be ironed out with another update to the system. looks like that would benefit all parties involved.