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Woma breeders... I need a little info

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norsmis

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I am knew to womas so I am not as well versed in the particulars of breeding. I have a a female woma that I suspect is gravid. She has been locked up with a male on at least 3 occassions and she recently stopped eating. She has also gained about 1lb since I got her about a month ago and has only eaten 1 medium rat. I haven't really noticed her being swollen like most other snakes I have bred. From what I have described, do you think she could be gravid?
 
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Womas

Hello,
I am no where near an expert on womas. However I have an adult pair that I have bred 2 out of the last 3 years. The would embrace like most snakes and my female usually would go off of feed as you have described. Next you should notice her lay upside down. My almost aslways has done this. I witnessed one of my balls do this last season. I am going to put my womas together soon myself. I have had two clutches of egss from mine. But my problem has been keeping the eggs alive. Both clutches I have had went bad. I have been told to try less moisture. I also got a new incubator this season. So wich me luck. And best of luck to you. Later Mike
 
Thanks Mike. Any noticeable weight gain? And good luck to you also!
 
Weight Gain

Hey there,
I honestly have never paid too much attention to the weight of any of my animals. I just feed the crap out of them just before I try to breed them. I am not a big time collector just an avid hobbyist. I have a total of 22 snakes consisting of balls, womas, female albino kenyan, carpets, and bredls. I do have a scale but more for incubator mix and weight of animals i am trying to sell. Later Mike
 
While anything is certainly possible, considering the time of year it is I would say it's unlikely she's gravid.
Womas copulate pretty much any time they are put together, but getting eggs outside of the normal season is rare.
Many also go off feed in preparation for the breeding season, some do not. I have 3 adults now that have been off feed for the last month.
 
I am a sorry excuse for a breeder, I guess...I have never weighed a snake I thought was gravid. I rarely weigh any of my snakes, unless a) for some reason, I am curious, b) I need to calculate a drug dose, c) somebody asks (this would include snakes that I am selling when I expect somebody to ask the weight, ie BPs). Most of the pythons species I have bred, I have been able to make an educated guess on them being gravid...provided I consider the idea far enough into the process, and take the time to really look. I've never been particularly good at palpating eggs - I tried it, unsuccessfully, a few times on gravid monitors, but I don't recall ever trying with snakes (I guess I just figured I was no good at it, so why waste my time). The other part of that is that I minimize handling when I suspect an animal is gravid.

All that said, Clay is correct - womas will copulate pretty much any time they can. Out of season breedings are typically infertile; but if you cycled them, there is a chance. Gravid pythons will regularly lay tipped on one side, or even upside down - womas are no exception (though there CAN be exceptions, lol).
You say she has eaten one medium rat in the month that you have had her...is it still in there? A pound, on first consideration sounded like a lot to me...but I have since considered the feel of a clutch of eggs, the weight of an average rat, and the approximate weight of a breedable female. Certainly not out of the question. As for looking swollen, some girls hide it better than others, lol. In many cases, if you don't know what to look for, it is easy to miss until just before deposition. (The visual cues are sometimes fairly subtle, but the more familiar you are with the animals, the easier it is to observe).
Good luck.
 
Thanks for the replies guys.
Harald, she passed the rat last week and thats when I decided to weigh her so she was on empty.
I forgot to mention she has also been rooting around her cage like mad the last couple of days, really tearing it apart. I haven't noticed her lying on her side but then again, I don't always have the time to check on her more than once a day.

Oh well, I guess I will find out....
 
How long have they been together? When were the copulations observed? Were they cycled at all? (I know you said you got her about a month ago, but I didn't know if some of these things were reported to you by the previous owner)
 
More Info Please

Hey There,
I know I didn't start this post. But I added the little I know about the situation. But I have a question about when the season is for the womas. The old "Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas" says it starts in October and runs through February. I have always tried breedin mine around December, and January. I got eggs the two time they bred and they were fertile at first according to candling. But they went bad. My reasoning was one too much moisture which somebody recently told me that they don't need alot of moisture. And two my old incubator's thermostat fluctuated alot. I recently got a new incubator with a Helix DBS-1000 and and another Helix for my old incubator. What else do I need to pay attention to? Thanks Mike
 
Age and weight of the adults (no, I have never weighed mine - I gauge weight the same way I do incubation media...by feel).
You say your eggs were fertile at first - I take it you mean that they went bad (as opposed to becoming infertile, lol), so you must be at least close enough with your cycling breeding efforts.
If you are using a hovabator - they suck for snake eggs. Yes, I know many people use them, but that doesn't change my response. You've got the thermostat, you can make yourself a good incubator for $50 (or less). I still use the one I made out of a cooler several years ago. It has served me well, and I like it...though I have considered getting something bigger vs just making a couple more of them. I kind of like the idea of not having all my eggs in one basket, so to speak.
 
Womas and Incubator

Coold Deal,
I bought a really nice Incubator from Casey Hulse (Snake Shacks) with the DBS 1000. The other one actually was a bird incubator not one of the foam ones you were talking about but a plastic box essentially with a plexi front door that slides open. After recieveing the one from Casey I hard wired this older one to a DBS 1000. So I'm pretty confident in my incubators for this year. I just started adding extra heat to my reptile room and I have increased feeding. In a couple of weeks I'm gonna start putting Male Woma with female woma. Pastle Ball with Woma Ball. And Jungle Carpet with Large Coastal Carpet female. Thanks for the extra info. I am really starting to enjoy this site more than KS. Thanks Mike
 
You're already increasing heat? What is your cycling schedule? Have you successfully bred pythons (any of the ones mentioned above, or other types)? I'm pretty set in my ways, but I always like to read about what works for others.
 
Last Year

Hey,
Last year was my first succesful season. With a crappy incubator and heat fluctuating from 83 to 93. Surprised the eggs hatched at all honestly. I hatched two balls out of the 5 eggs. The other 3 eggs went bad guessing emryo death due to the heat fluctuation. Did not breed my womas last season felt like my female needed a year off. I have increased my collection a little and now have more adults ready to breed. The way I understand it from talking to other friends and other hobbyists that you can pretty much breed anything any time of year as long as you cycle them and do everything at the same time every year. The last 3 years I slow down feeding End of summer around august. Then in October I start feeding things up to help gain weight and strength. November I start warming everything up by turning on an electric heater in my Reptile at 80 and leave they're regular heat lights and heat pads on. In December I usually start putting everybody together and see what happens. Last year my female ball laid her eggs in June and they hatched the end of August. So Please fill me in on what everyboedy else does. I would really like to be more successful at this. But I figured since I kept getting fertile eggs that everything I was doing was working fine. Thanks Mike :thumbsup:
 
There are two different schools of thought - temp/light cycling and fat/ovulation cycling - and it looks as if you are trying to combine them for some reason. With the exception of colubrids that have just gone through a 3 month brumation, a month or two of heavy feeding to "gain weight & strength" prebreeding is not necessary. (yes, it is a part of fat/ovulation cycling...but it seems you are applying it rather haphazardly, without a strong knowledge of the practice or the animals themselves). You may well know about your animals, at least enough to have a decent working knowledge - clearly, I don't know you & am in no position to say - but the impression I get is that you are grasping...trying to piece things together from what people tell you as opposed to understanding the animals and their reproduction.
 
Not Sure About Grasping

But as far as the rest goes I think I see what you are saying. All I know is that my animals are fat and happy. In fact they are happy enough that they reproduce. They get clean water and regular feeding. And from some of the pictures I have seen there are people out there that don't pay to much attention to there animals and just want to make money off of them. I recently acquired a group of 4 adults the guy did not know what the sex of any of the animals were. I got the group for $237 shipped. I got very lucky with the group. When they got to the house 2 were extremely thin I fed all 4 a rat the day after they arrived and had settled in. They all ate however 3 of the 4 regurged due to not having being fed in so long. So after cleaning everything and having my entire room stink I fed each 3 rat fuzzies just to get them used to feeding again. They are all turning around now. The major thing of the whole deal was I got an adult Woma Ball in the group. Sent the pics of all 4 animals to Ralph Davis when I was looking at buying them and Ralph said definitely get animal 4 it appears like it could be a codom morph. After they got here I took more and better pics. Sent them to Ralph again. He said she looks really nice looks like a Woma Ball. Read up checked pics and he was right. So I am really excited about this season due to random luck. Later Mike
 
Hope it works out for you. (looking like a woma ball does not necessarily mean it is, though...but with a little luck :))
 
Woma Ball For Sure

I can send you the pics I sent Ralph if you are interested. There no dubt that this is a Woma Ball. If you know what they look like. You will be able to tell by the pics as well. Later Mike
 
Pics of Wom Ball

Wow,
That belly shot says it all. Nothing but a woma has a belly like that. What do you think?
 

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I bred womas for a few years. I agree with the others that she is likely not gravid. A gravid woma will darken and swell and may still feed (it has happened to me).

This is a photo of an adult woma that was not gravid:

normal_woma.jpg





Below is a photo of her gravid a few months later. You can see the swelling and that she is darker: This, BTW, was in mid-February after cycling and multiple copulations. She was off feed at that time.

Gravid_Woma.jpg





Then she threw me off by taking a rat, shedding, and then taking another rat.

This is late March (13 eggs in all):

Woma_eggs.jpg
 
Well guys, I checked on them today (the male has been with her off and on all week) she looks to be ovulating now. She is really swollen around her lower abdomen and has gotten a lot darker. She refused her rat but took an adult mouse yesterday. I gather from reading other posts that the male doesnt need to be reintroduced after ovulation. Is this correct?
 
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