| Author | Subject: more on shipping through UPS |
| Douglas R. Matuszak | Posted At 13:11:28 04/18/2001
here is a company who sells full shipping supplies from delis and bags to forty hour heat packs and pland unmarked stiro lined boxes for use through such companies as UPS. The company is Superior Enterprises and they are located out of California and can be reached at 818-341-8132, give them a call and receive their catalog and price list of products specificly made for healthy safe shipping of live reptiles and amphibians. Also remember when using such companies as UPS, use the overnight service for early delivery between 10:00am - 12:00 pm in the time zone you are shipping to. This info will benefit a few of you and that is all I am trying to accomplish that this service does work and those who bash it, are doing something wrong on their end. Now a bit more info which is very important, do not put down that snakes are the content of the package, I put on art supplies or glass and mark fragile. This is whre a little bit of enginuity comes in to play and common sense should prevale in a successful shipment. Do not put down that you have paint or other chemicals in the box since this may require them to open and inspect the box for hazardous chemicals, so be simple in the content of the box. You also can not ship a hissing snake that can be heard through the box, this is a sure way to get busted, pack well and fill in dead spaces of box with lots of crumbled up newspaper which will absorb the sound from with in thus masking any nose to the outside of the box. Hope this helps and happy shipping. |
| Eric Burkett |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2696.html Posted At 14:45:48 04/18/2001 So what you are telling everybody here is to LIE??? That will be a GREAT asset to the hobby Right??, we are LIARS!!! This is the most STUPIDEST thing you have posted yet!! I hope the webmaster deletes this before anybody has a chance to read it. I recieve quite a few snakes via UPS. Every box I have recieved was shipped in a regular reptile box with LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES written all over it. I can't believe you a "well known herper" are telling everybody here that "it's OK, just LIE about it, I do!!" What a disgrace to the hobby. Do you LIE about your "het" offspring as well?? I don't think so, but now it seems it could be possible. Afterall, you lie about something as simple as shipping!!! ERIC |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2697.html Posted At 16:30:46 04/18/2001 I ship through UPS from a local dealer, Mail boxes Etc. and they told me I can ship harmless reptiles, but not snakes and they specifically told me not to put it was a snake just harmless reptile. Is harmless reptil a lie, don't think so. I could see if it was a large boa, python, or venomous snake, then there should be concern for physical harm. Just because a person or herper chooses to ship a certain way or lie to the shipper is no reflection on them. I see it as trying to keep costs down. I have even had people request I send through UPS. As long as the person you are buying from stands behind his reptiles and ships them safely what difference does it make? As I said before, no matter who you ship with eventually you will have a bad experience, period. I know people that swear by Air borne, but every single time I had something delivered by them they cannot seem to find my home in time. I have also received shipments through Delta dash and they also have lost my packages, which were DH for Snow boas. We as herpers set the example of this hobby by how we care for our reptiles, how we present ourselves to the public and for the breeder/dealer, how they stand behind their products because no matter how you look at it a breeder/dealer is in the business of selling reptiles and thus making money. It has been my experience that most care about their business and have some boas as pets, so I am not saying that all breeder/dealers are simply in it for money or are bad, but as with all things, because of our human nature, there will be those that exploit it. To be honest, if you are serious about abiding by the law and shipping your reptiles safely, you would get into your vehicle and deliver it yourself, as this is the only way to insure that it is being delivered safely and humanely, but wait that would be too costly for you wouldn't it? There is no guarantee, other than that of the breeder/dealer that the reptile will arrive live and healthy. For all you know someone could be shipping a sick snake and it will, if Murphy's law holds true, end up beside your healthy snake or reptile. UPS may have rules and regulations as to shipping reptiles, most likely because it is too costly to comply with animal shipping codes and for those that do, you still have idiots that will toss your reptile like a football, stand on it's box and in general mistreat and abuse it in any form you can imagine, not to mention smoking what ever close enough to cause damage to your reptile. UPS has been used to ship reptiles before all the new codes were brought about and since they chose not to conform to the new codes they have to decline shipping animals. Has their practice of handling packages changed, don't think so. What I'm saying in general is this, 5-10 years ago, people used UPS or who ever to send reptiles with out any thought about the shipping process, but now since uncle sam has stepped in and put in his 2 cents now shippers must comply to their codes or not ship animals. So what has changed in their practice of shipping your package? Nothing. If it is unsafe to send a reptile today then it was unsafe 5-10 years ago, so you are saying that all those reptiles shipped by UPS then was also wrong, but no one seemed to have a problem then. I am also saying that simply compling with shipping codes does not insure safe humane delivery of any animal. We can go back and forth about this all you want, but until someone comes up with a 100% safe shipping method or company that insures your animal will not be subjected to harm, decease, or abuse, you're waisting your breath becuase it doesn't exist and it probably never will as long as stupid people continue to breed. |
| Marc Gembinski |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2701.html Posted At 18:25:30 04/18/2001 Mr. Eric Burkett - I believe what Doug was trying to do was humorously bring to light that there are many safer ways for young people to ship animals without having to open shipping accounts with the bigger companies. While I have never bought an animal from Doug via mail and always bought animals from him at the Columbus Ohio show, he is a great individual with OUTSTANDING, APPLAUDABLE ethics! The first time I met him I was shocked when he handed me a instant wash hand lotion that was animal safe so that I didn't bring something from another table to his. On top of that look at the excellent leaps and bounds his projects have made for the boa communty on of the first to exclusivly use the Brian Sharp strain albinos for his projects. Not to mention that he was one of the first if not the first person to produce ghost boas. He will also be doing awsome things with a TRUE strain of HYPO Argentine Boas that are absolutly MINDBLOWING. NOw that I've turned my two cents into five cents I just want to say that Doug isn't trying to encourage anyone to lie and the bottom line of my ranting is that he would NEVER LIE ABOUT AN ANIMAL BEING A HET!!!!!!! CASE CLOSED! Sorry to take up everyones time! |
| Eric Burkett |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2702.html Posted At 18:31:48 04/18/2001 Hi Ernie, I think you misunderstood me. Writing LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES on a box is different than writing "art supplies or glass". Agreed?? ERIC |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2705.html Posted At 19:43:17 04/18/2001 Even though Doug and I have our differences, and those differences may or may not ever be resolved, I have to speak up here. I, for one, can appreciate what Doug is saying here. For the animal's sake, I would rather see a mislabeled box if shipped via UPS. Taking into consideration the utter disadain that many people show for reptiles, its very likely that a properly labeled shipping container might be subjected to a little extra mishandling by an ophidiophobic carrier. Additionally, it seems that many offices are unfamiliar with UPS's tarriff, and will still refuse en otherwise acceptable package. Given these considerations, I no longer ship with door-to-door delivery services, and instead opt to use US Air. |
| Patrick Alexander |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2707.html Posted At 20:13:43 04/18/2001 Eric: If a harmless lie to UPS bugs you, just damn well safely package a small piece of glass and put that in the box, too. *poof*, no lie. It ain't such a big deal, y'know? Lying about hets, well, that's not so harmless a lie... but harmless or helpful lies? They keep society running. :) Patrick Alexander |
| Eric Burkett |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2708.html Posted At 20:22:40 04/18/2001 Thanks for your 5 cents Marc, but I'm more interested in what Doug has to say!!! This has NOTHING to do with Doug. TO MARC: Being "reputable" doesn't mean the person can't slide "things" to people that aren't his/her "main" customer base. Let's take, for instance, Tom Crutchfield!!! I know, I know he was "tricked", "treated unfairly", whatever!! A person/people doesn't have this done to them if they are "straight as an arrow" on all of their dealings. I would definately say Crutchfield was a "leading person/source in the industry". I'm sure everyone knows about some of his dealings. I for one was taken, so now a "leading person in the industry" or a "well repected person in the industry" doesn't mean squat to me, to a degree. In closing, I might have misread Dougs post, but to me, it doesn't sound to good. ERIC |
| Ciro |
more on shipping thru ups
2711.html Posted At 22:20:38 04/18/2001 Actually, if you want the UPS guy to act "nice" to your shipment, you should use a box that says "live tropical fish" on it...I do, if I have them, even if it is to ship one gecko. They never ever mess with fish and keep it warm too! Just my two cents... |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2716.html Posted At 00:51:35 04/19/2001 Hey Eric, I uderstand that and I neglegted to add that I have on occassion had to lie on a box to send it to some one that was in a district that did not ship or accept any reptiles. I think Ciro's idea is great. Lablel them tropical fish if need be, but still you're going to get the idiot that shakes it just to hear the water swish around. Point is to all this is there is not a 100% safe way to ship any kind of animal, period. I think Doug may think the same thing, his point though is do your job as a responsible herper, make sure you, yourself pack the animal as safely and securly as possible. Thanks, Ernie |
| Loney Wilcoxson |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2792.html Posted At 01:26:26 04/21/2001 As a guy who worked part time for UPS a few years ago during a layoff from my regular job, I will tell you in no uncertain terms, label reptiles anything but reptiles, the workers here totally freaked on anything that said snake OR reptile. Boxes were kicked thrown bounced with no regard to contents. I would do anything to give the animals a way to avoid this treatment. |
| Cheryl bott |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2861.html Posted At 10:23:12 04/23/2001 It is a 'Federal' crime to ship 'any' animal, cold-blooded or warm through overnight carriers such as UPS, Fed Ex and or Airborne Express. The only Overnight carriers that can 'legally' ship lizards, tortoises, and frogs is U.S.P.S. and you must declare what is in the box because if you are caught you can end up in Federal Court. If you doubt my words just call any UPS and ask for 'shipper' regulations and it clearly states that UPS will not ship any type of animal or animals. At one time you could obtain permission to ship reptiles, but they revoked that in January of 2000. I still use UPS and use regular reptile boxes. But they do not have to take the shipment or it can be returned as the UPS airline carrier 'might' refuse it. IF you do ship any of the Overnight carriers and the animals die including United States Postal Service they will not cover the cost or replacement or even shipping. I lost an entire clutch of Yellow Ridgetails via USPS last year and I'm on my 3rd and final appeal for the $1800.00 and its not going to happen. Delta is the only folks that will pay right up if the animals die. So if your shipping those 'high' end reptiles Overnight carrier to your customer they have a right to know that the $1800.00 snake won't be refunded and might die in transit. Cheryl |
| Ciro Spina |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2869.html Posted At 12:04:30 04/23/2001 In one breath you say it is a "'Federal' crime to ship 'any' animal, cold-blooded or warm through overnight carriers such as UPS, Fed Ex and or Airborne Express." In the next breath you say "I still use UPS and use regular reptile boxes. But they do not have to take the shipment or it can be returned as the UPS airline carrier 'might' refuse it." If it was a federal crime, they would not risk losing their business to get 20 dollars from you. Further, if it is a federal crime, they COULD NOT accept the shipment, for they, as well as you, are breaking federal law. I highly doubt what you say is correct. Nonetheless, you also say that USPS is the only one that can legally ship animals and that other carriers (UPS, Airborne, etc.) cannot. This is clearly false. Just go to airborne's web site and you will see that they ship certain animals and if you look down at one of my earlier post you will see an exception to their general rule of not shipping reptiles. I could be wrong, I highly doubt I am, but if I am , you and UPS are just as stupid for knowingly and continually breaking a federal law ... |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2882.html Posted At 22:56:03 04/23/2001 It is NOT a federal crime to ship certain live animals with carriers such as UPS and Airborne. There is no express prohibition that can be found in the CFR or USC. Additionally, a perusal of The Federal Wildlife and Related Laws Handbook reveals no express prohibitions against using independent carriers. Additionally, UPS does allow for the transportaion of certain live animals, including importation into the US. Effective in the 5 Feb 2001 revision of their tariff, apparently removed any restrictions applicable specifically to reptiles. Admittedly, I may have overlooked it, but I've gone through all 22 pages of the document a couple times. They do have a "catch- all" which states that they can refuse a package based on their sole discretion, however. Airborne, in its "Acceptability of Shipments for Transportation" section of their US Service Conditions clearly states that they will accept: 7. Shipments of tortoise, frogs, non-venomous insects, live fish, and crustaceans only under the following conditions: a. Such shipments must be boxed or crated so as to prevent escape, insure safe transportation with ordinary care in handling, and assure protection to any person handling the shipment. b. Compliance with all laws, ordinances or government rules and regulations governing the transportation of live creatures. c. Airborne Express assumes no liability for the conduct or act of the animals to themselves or to each other, such as biting, kicking, goring or smothering. d. Sender must provide a letter absolving Airborne Express of all liability for loss, damage, or delay of such shipments. Furthermore, as stated by others in another thread, Delta WILL NOT pay for an animal unless the DOA was caused by an act or omission on their behalf. I can vouch for this personally, as I received a phone call from Delta in regards to the denial of a claim for three Suphan cobras which arrived here DOA. Additionally, Delta does sometimes require a necropsy (at your expense) before payment of a claim. They also require that the claim, and all associated paperwork, be in Atlanta no more than 15 days after the date on the airbill. |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2884.html Posted At 02:25:12 04/24/2001 This is to Ken Harbart. You said you use US Air, are they like Delta dash? What are their costs? I know it varies by distance, but what has been an average for you?//// As for some of the other responses there isn't any laws that I am aware of that makes it a federal crime or other wise for a common person shipping a animal. I don't know about poisonous, I don't work with them so I have no interest to get this info. I only keep Colombians, their morphs and true redtails. Uncle Sam only stepped in after some improper handling was brought to their attention by some animal activists. They only imposed shipping codes, ie: aircraft modifications and training for shippers to follow and if they do not comply with the modifications or training then they are not supposed to ship animals. I don't know where you can get any info on these codes, I wish I did so I could share them with you. As with most things controlled by Uncle Sam they don't check to see if any one has actually complied. They usually will take the companies word for it, but if it comes to their attention that they aren't brought up to 100% compliance then that company is in big trouble, but they usually get fined and it will probably be less than one days shipping profits and they will probably be ordered to comply with the codes or discontinue shipping animals. As with some shipping companies they will put in double talk to confuse us as to what they will ship and their responsibilities for damages to get around following codes. I would prefer shipping through an airline and get them delivered in a few hours rather than 24, but most people don't want to pay $60 for delivery through the airlines. Maybe we as herpers can band together and ask them to change their shipping charges for us or start a herp business accounts and give us special shipping pricing through a membership or something. Just a thought. Thanks for your time. Ernie |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2888.html Posted At 06:34:53 04/24/2001 .I've had great success with US Air, as they seem to be a lot more "user-friendly" that Delta. To be quite honest, they remind me of the way Delta used to be. Live animals are generally given top priority by US Air. Animals that I've shipped via their 2nd day air, usually have a transit time of four hours, and are on direct flights. Thus far, the most I've paid with them was $37 for a 40 pound box shipped from MI to PA. They also have a counter-to-counter service who's prices are comparable to DASH. Also, even as an unknown shipper, US Air has given me no hassles about shipping out venomous reptiles, something which Delta was not especially thrilled about. |
| Cheryl Bott |
Re: more on shipping through UPS
2919.html Posted At 09:22:53 04/25/2001 So what, who cares...as long as the customer is happy and the animals "arrive alive"! Life is full of contradictions, just look at some of the sub-species we deal with, some of them aren't described and it can be nothing but conjecture on our part and opinions of what is what. Basic fact for the person that has no account, or isn't 'known' by the Airlines to be a shipper is, it gets harder and harder for the hobbiest to ship. If you have an account with UPS you may ship with district approval, tortoises, lizards, nonven insects. What you can't ship are: Birds, any warm blooded animal and ALL SNAKES. If any of you doubt what was said, just call 800-742-5877 and punch 0 after the message and a nice "informed" UPS person will help you. Or I will 'fax' you the page in the Shipper Regulation book that I have. I've had an account with UPS for more than 25 years gentlemen. If you wish to find out 'what' will happen, at that point you must look into the Federal Aviation laws for prosecution. Mailboxes ect., why would they care...they are counter people with no career and no benefits. If you handed them a bag of cobras they would take it. I know people who have been caught sending snakes via the Postal People and they were just warned, so in reality you probably won't go to Federal Court. So I'm so sorry for trying to scare all you big tough men. Yes, I did say that its a "Federal Crime" to transport animals via UPS and in the same sentence (or paragraph) say that I use UPS. I have signed a waiver to do so, that if anything happens to my shipment I cannot collect on my reptiles. So you can ship animals via UPS or FedEx, but must have an account to do so along with a waiver of intent. No you can't ship any animal UPS if you don't have an account, unless you purchase unmarked shipping boxes from Superior Products. Delta, I have never had a problem with Delta paying. I have only lost one animal in transit through the airlines and they paid without hesitation. U.S.P.S., I have lost animals with them and they don't pay, nor do they care. UPS, They have lost my animals on occassion, but I signed a waiver... I can't get FedEx to knowingly take an order of reptiles. I can't get Airborne Express to knowingly take an order of reptiles. I'm sure, just like this forum...there will be varying opinions and experiences! |