| Author | Subject: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long ) |
| Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net | Posted At 10:47:20 05/24/2001
I think that what the herp world needs is a business plan. Have you ever noticed that the biggest breeders all have a few things in common? After all, if they did not make it a point to do good business, they would have never gotten to be in the position they are in. We, as consumers, do have a right to chose whom we do business with. We may not be able to control how others do business, but when we find that they will not comply with a minimal acceptable business plan; we do not have to buy from them. The following is my suggestion for a good plan pertaining to customer service for any person, business, or entity that sells livestock. Without exception, the seller should stand behind their product. Some put this into writing, others do this by reputation, but they all should make good if there is a problem. I suggest a minimum guarantee in writing before anyone buys an animal. I think that all breeders or dealers should have a policy of replacing animals or price of purchase + shipping if any animal is dead on arrival. The only exception to this should be if no one was available to sign for the package. Any complaint to this affect should be made within 24 hours of receiving the animal. If an animal dies within 2 weeks of being in it's new home and a necropsy report states that there is evidence that the cause of death was a pre-existing condition, the breeder or dealer should be responsible for the price of the animal plus the cost of the necropsy or a replacement animal plus the cost of the necropsy. A species specific care sheet pertaining to the captive husbandry of that animal should accompany all animals sold. There is too much misinformation out there already. How many large chain pet stores have you been in and heard a customer told that a large species of snake would not get too big if kept in a small enclosure and not fed very much. In addition, I feel that all breeders and dealers should make it their responsibility to be available to answer questions pertaining to care and help issues even after the sale is done. I have had countless conversations with breeders about how to do everything from breeding to bad sheds to combating mites. As a general rule, they have all been helpful, but as the consumer, I like to know that the source of my product is not going to abandon me after the sale. Safe delivery is the joint responsibility of the buyer and the seller. There should be more communication just prior to delivery than any other time in the sale or trade. Every aspect of the delivery should be discussed in depth. I feel that this should occur on the phone or in person rather than via e-mail. When matters are as important as the life of an animal, nothing should be left to chance. If either party refuses to discuss the method of delivery and the follow through with a plan that is beneficial to both parties, the sale should be discontinued. I am fully in favor of buying from smaller breeders or dealers. I do feel that they should be held to the same high standards to which we would hold the larger breeders. There are many small to medium breeders that do their best to adhere to policies that are beneficial to both the buyer and seller. These are the people to do business with. Anyone who refuses to do such should be avoided. Your comments and suggestions appriciated -Your Sick Uncle Morti. |
| JERRY TRESSER |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3665.html Posted At 18:58:14 05/24/2001 Just a point of information as to how we operate. We only provide a 24 hour grace period. Beyond that the owner takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY,and we assume no other liability. We do not agree with your assessment of having a vet examine an animal that may have had a pre-exisiting conditon that we would under normal circumstancs not be aware of. The only exclusion would be a vet certified exam prior to the animal being shipped, and basically no one does that. Our position is simple. We do not want to be married to our customers! We have a policy in force that the potential buyer is made aware of before the sale is consummated. If for any reason the customer is dissatisfied with the animal in question, he can return it for a complete refund and that includes shipping. But thats it. I cannot begin to assume that everyone takes care of their herps as we do, so some kind of a limited liability policy must be in force otherwise you have the problems that appear to frequently on this forum. Because this is a RISK business, with a potential for death, the buyer must assume the burden within a given period of time. As painful as it might appear, it becomes a problem for the buyer if a problem occurs in 5 days, 5 weeks or 5 months. Thats the business we chose, and these are the hazards that we have to deal with. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3688.html Posted At 22:00:30 05/24/2001 I'd have to agree w/ Jerry. Small and medium sized breeders cannot handle these types of guarantees. We would all go out of business, which I suppose the large breeders would love. Face it, the larger breeders get more for their herps just because people like to say it came from "insert large breeder name here." If we, the smaller breeders, even want to think about selling our herps at a show where the big breeders are we have to mark them at a price low enough that people believe they're getting a great bargain. A price low enough so that the customer would rather save X amount of $$ rather than have that "big breeder herp." I'll give you an example to think about. You're at a show in the market for, let's say an albino corn. You have three choices of vendors: Bill and Kathy Love $35, Serpenco $35, and me Brian Conley $35. All three snakes are the same size, color, temperment, etc. The only difference is the name of the breeder. I don't have a chance in you know what of selling that snake to somebody who's well read on corn snakes. Here are the two "Gods of the Corn Snake Universe," and some fat guy with a bald headed kid working for him. Hell, I wouldn't buy the snake from me! But, if I (the fat guy) mark my snake down to $20 I've got a shot. However, at this price the snake is sold as is, it has to be I don't have any room left. And here's the other thing, people assume the larger breeders guarantee their snakes. They may or may not, it's the buyers responsibility to check. I would imagine there are shows where the larger breeders sell hundreds of herps in a day. All those animals aren't guaranteed. People are standing 3 deep waiving cash, there is no way one could ever remember who they sold every herp to. Hell, I've been at shows where I couldn't remember where I bought everything from! Buyer assumes responsibilty at time of purchase unless something is worked out (in writing) up front. Healthy animals may be returned for refund, but you may be charged a resonable handling fee, not to exceed 15% of purchase price. That is the type of guarantee I, as a small breeder, can live with. Brian Conley |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3700.html Posted At 03:33:57 05/25/2001 I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack over this , but I agree with Donnie Smith. I have posted a couple times about this subject and with mixed responses. Some agree in part others not at all. I am not a breeder/dealer. I may become one if things work out that way, my passion is Harley's. I only buy boas and breed them for my own satisfaction to get the morphs I want with out giving up a major organ to pay for it. I'm not complaining about the prices at all. I think their rarity and beauty speak for their selves. I have seen most dealers advertise guaranteed live, healthy arrival and satisfaction guaranteed or your money back or store credit or whatever. What gets me is the healthy part. If they are healthy then they should eat for you with in a few days of arrival period. If you feed them too soon you are asking for trouble. I think the average time to wait is 2-4 days depending on species. If they don't eat there are only a couple reasons why, either they aren't hungary, shedding, they are sick from shipping, or they were sick from birth. I don't think 2 weeks is an unreasonable amount of time to deal with. You need to take it on a case by case situation. If someone gets a snake or whatever and hasn't got a clue and it dies from improper care then you're off the hook. This can be proven by a necropsy. If they know what they're doing (experience with species)or they follow your directions or did their research before making the purchase and they do everything by the numbers and the Vet can, beyond any doubt prove, it was an existing problem then I believe the dealer should do what it takes to make it right. If it was me and you blew me off or didn't do something, I would not only post a bad guy post, but you would never, ever get my business again. I have been screwed and I have been treated with great respect by both large and small breeders. I will Have boas to sell in the future because I can't keep and feed all the babies and afford to feed my family, I will have to sell off the extra boas. When I do I will take things as they come. I will offer advise and I will also ask questions of their experience. I will require a necropsy (with a description) and a pic of the body. The small guy should be able to accomodate customers better than the larger guy because the larger breeders don't have time to get personal with their customers. Some do go out of their way, others don't. I think it reflects what kind of person you are (not nice) if you say you had your 24 hours and now you're on your own. 24 hours is not enough time to tell if you have a healthy animal. I think if you check the consumer laws it may say other wise, if they even have a law that governs live stock, reptile's or pets. Just because you post a sign or say these are my rules, the law over rules your rules, period. There are too many people selling snakes, reptiles or whatever that are sick or not what they're supposed to be for us not to make this kind of guarantee. I have a local pet store owner here that guarantees all his animals for 30 days. As long as you don't chop off their head or walk them down the middle of the road or whatever, you're covered. This field is starting to be exploited just like dogs, cats or any other animal that has been put on tv and unless the breeder/dealers start rising above the jerk offs this hobby will go down the tubes with the rest of the crap. The other thing that can be done is start offering to ship either by Delta Dash or something similar or ship by an overnight carrier. Not USPS. I have had trouble with Airborne express, others have had problems with UPS. I guess it is a preference to who ever is shipping. If you like a certain carrier then stick to them, but you are opening yourself up to hassles if someone requests a different carrier and you don't comply and something goes wrong. Since they made the request then you can inform them of your problems or opinion with that carrier and you could even decide not to make any guarantees through that shipper. I think every carrier has at one time or another lost a package or delivered late. If the carrier is prefered by both the shipper and the receiver and something happens (remember Murphy's law) then I still think it is the shipper/dealer's responsibility to replace whatever it may be. You have to remember you are selling a product, weather it is an inanimate object or a live animal, it is a product. If you sell that product with a proven defect you must stand behind it 100%. If you do not then you are no better than the con artists, thieves and liars that are ruining this hobby. I know you cannot replace everything you sell (unless you knowingly sell sick animals), but if you take time to listen to the customer and if they can prove you sent them a sick (defective) animal then you need to replace/refund it, period. I don't really see the problem here. I don't think there will be too many problems. People aren't going to go out and pay $100-$1000+ on an animal, let it die or kill it, pay $25-$50 for a Vet visit, plus pay another $200+ for a necropsy just to screw someone out of their money or to get another animal identical to the one they had gotten to start with. A picture of the body a detailed necropsy and a description from the Vet would be hard to disprove or overlook. All my boas go to the Vet shortly after I get it to be tested and treated for parasites and for whatever else they may have. I expect all my boas to be sick when they arrive. Most aren't, but I do expect it. For you to say we should expect it to die from the beginning is like saying if I buy a car I should expect it not to run. Before I buy a car I take it to a mechanic and have it checked out from top to bottom. It is one of the few things you can have inspected before buying. I know this practice can't be done with animals and other products because you may as well give them away if you do. I am not saying to replace animals at the drop of a hat. All I am saying is if it can be proven beyond any doubt that you sent out a sick animal then you should hold yourself 100% accountable and do the right thing. Maybe my standards are too high. Maybe I have to much pride in myself and my word or maybe it's just to hard for other's to rise up to this standard or set the example. Nuff said. Ernie |
| JERRY TRESSER |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3704.html Posted At 05:30:59 05/25/2001 So as not to loose sight of the original thread. The reader should understand that the object aside from selling Herps is to Limit your Liability. The only way this can be done in a business like manner is to provide UPFRONT your policy. It makes common sense and is done in every profession. Literally thousands of dollars have been spent on this subject alone. Just look at the paperwork on purchasing an auto or any other sale. We deal with high ended Geckos. Buy 1 pair of Aspers and its $ 3,000. We have to make cerain that the purchaser understands what they are getting, and most of the time, they do! We PURPOSELY, eliminate those buyers who are "weekend buyers, " they comprise about 90% of the inquiries, but our interest lies in the 10%. They understand the ethics of the business, and know their own product line. The problem is that many people cannot understand when a sale is final. They are not provided with guidelines from the seller and feel that they eventually have been ripped off. In some cases it may be true and in other situations the animal may go down hill for a variety of reasons, beyond the sellers control. As indicated earlier, this is the business whe chose, with these hazards, and we go into this with our eyes wide open. JERRY |
| Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3709.html Posted At 08:04:43 05/25/2001 Thank you for your agreement Ernie. As Jerry stated, my intent for this post was to hopefully help to educate the consumer. It is the buyers responsibility to educate themselves about what they are buying and whom they are buying from BEFORE they get it. You have never seen a "Bad Guy" post from me on here because I chose to make sure I get things out of the way in writing up front. The only times I have been burned, I consider it to be my fault for not doing my research before the sale. I agree that what I wrote was not an end all be all for what all dealers should do. I just think that both parties in a transaction have some responsibility to uphold. These are my thoughts about where that responsibility could be. Reptile breeding is a great business to be in. If you are doing something that you love and you have no questions about what your customer wants. Many businesses have no idea exactly how to make their customers happy. Hopefully this guideline will help. I don't think any consumer would consider this unfair. Thanks for your time, -Your Sick Uncle Morti. |
| JERRY TRESSER |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3721.html Posted At 11:11:21 05/25/2001 One of the Golden threads that seem to run through some of these posts is that: Good guys can turn into Bad guys.Possibly visa versa. This is usually contingent upon the health or the color or the eating ability, etc. of the animal in question. We dont maintain high expectations when dealing with customers. Nor do we ever persue a sale ! We unconditionally guarantee that the animal is healthy (from all outward appearances)and can provide additional information on their eating habits or husbandry if required. But thats it. Our responsibility ceases and the sale is considered final once the grace period has ended. Our experience has shown us that the more you provide, the more problems are likely to occur. What it basically boils down to is picking your customer and setting the terms rather than the opposite, which seems to occur more often! We are not that hungry for the sale and then the onslaught of problems, that arrive from it. Thats no way to run a business. Unfortunetly, to many well intentioned sellers as well as buyers have their expectations beyond the actual sale. ! |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3728.html Posted At 16:47:52 05/25/2001 Ernie, I think your statement that there are only a couple of reasons why a snake won't eat is not at all accurate. There are LOTS of reasons why a snake will stop eating: - stress of shipment - change of cage - change of lighting - change of temperature - frozen pinks offered instead of live - live pinks offered instead of frozen - the mice at one place were on a different smelling substrate - the mice at one place were fed a different type of chow (mice ARE what they eat) - the snake just decided it had a different preference for food and NOW wants lizards or split brained pinks. I have had snakes feeding ravenously before I went off to a show, decide they were different when we got back from the show with them, and refused to feed. I have had snakes refuse to feed as long as a hide box was in the cage with them. I have had snakes that would eat black mice but not white mice. And I have had snakes get a single rat pup to eat and decide that they will NEVER eat another mouse afterwards. I am sure there are other people that can think of things like this that have nothing at all to do with actual illness or physical failings in the animal. And whose fault is it when this happens? ANY guarantee period that a breeder offers to a customer is gratuitous. We breeders certainly expect things to happen beyond our control, but some of us make the decision to stand behind what we are selling, no matter what. Sometimes it does gripe us when a string of unfortunate instances hit at the same time, but that's the cost of doing business. This is a decision that each and every one selling animals will have to address and decide what is best for them. Some people will look at the short term, and others at the long term results of the policies they set. And in case anyone hasn't figured this out yet, nothing in the transaction betweem the buyer and the seller is more likely to cause problems than just the act of shipping the animal to them. |
| James Friess |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3748.html Posted At 10:29:21 05/26/2001 As a small time herp keeper, I agree with Donnie and Ernie. Also, Rich's post is exactly why I'd buy from him. He backs what he sells. Period. I will never buy from a breeder that acts like backing what s/he sells is a task. I simply don't want to hear about your business problems. Your choosing to do what you do. I only want to hear how your going to make me, the customer, happy. Within limits of course. Then again, like I said, I'm small time so you won't really miss my $150 every few years. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3751.html Posted At 12:49:58 05/26/2001 I guess it all comes down to what you want to lable your business. I guess I would have to call myself a wholesaler. I sell healthy $10 snakes for $10. You have every opportunity to ask questions and inspect the animal before you purchase it. After you purchase it, it becomes yours. If you do not have enough confidence in your ability to choose a healthy animal and require a guarantee, I'll change hats and become a retailer. That same $10 snake now costs $29.95 and comes w/ a two week guarantee. It's your money folks, how do you want to spend it?? |
| James Friess |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3757.html Posted At 16:26:27 05/26/2001 Makes sense Brian. But lets say I live 500 miles away from you and have to simply trust you to send me a healthy, properly represented animal. Will this still triple your price? |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3772.html Posted At 12:15:43 05/27/2001 James, It depends on what you, the customer wants. If you want to try the trust route first, no you get the $10 snake for $10, live arrival (only) guaranteed. You then have the animal in front of you and can decide if I was lying or not. If I was lying to you, then you have this wonderful forum to post your grevince. If you don't want to trust me w/o knowing me (not that I would blame you after the luck I've had trusting people) then you pay $29.95 and get your 2 week guarantee. Shipping, as bad for animals as it is, as Rich stated above, is what is keeping me from selling animals over the net. I just don't know if it's worth the headaches even if I do triple my prices. What does everyone else think?? Brian |
| Krystalline Holoun-Field |
What about a registry?
3837.html Posted At 21:55:42 05/28/2001 Hello- I was reading the messages here and see beaucoup good points. Maybe the herp breeding world (this would eventually have to include the 'industry'-i.e., big breeders-but not until the idea was formed and in practice) should have what other species' breeders do-a 'purebred' or 'half-' type of registry. I KNOW that it seems impossible at first glance: with 30 babies at one time?? With the whole import/captive bred thing??? But hear me out!!! Arabian horses who are imported are designated with * before their name. Champion dogs get their own suffixes. Breeders of any purebred mammal are required to provide name, location, and "papers" on their produced pups/kits/foals/whatever. Halfbreed registries (sp. ?) abound-but they also serve a purpose: to track and I. D. In this day and age, with this or that guy/gal claiming to have produced a morph that has never existed and wanting to name it, I see a registry as being infinitely valuable. Has this been tried before? Could anyone here see a registry system for herps? Some other registries serve to I.D. either a more popular OR rarer breed; Quarter Horse lineage is tracked because a certain family may have the trait for cutting/trail ability, whereas English Bull Terriers are I.D.'d for different reasons-rarity, tendency for people to breed them to non-standard animals, etc. It all boils down to tracking the breeding of a type of animal. And I see that as being valuable for herps. What do you all think? K |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3842.html Posted At 23:49:19 05/28/2001 Oh, it's been approached all right. And so far it has not proven to be workable. Take my particular circumstance. I am expecting close to 4,000 baby corn snakes this year. Suppose there is some registry system in place. Just whom is going to provide all of the data for the system? I barely have the time and resources to keep them fed and cleaned, much less make up a registry entry for them. And if this registry is in place, is it for free, or is there a a charge for the registration of each animal? Figure on just a minimal charge of $1 for each animal. Even if I register only half of those animals, we're talking about 2 grand. And for that I get a certificate that I need to keep with the associated animal. I will have STACKS of deli cups with baby corn snakes in them when August rolls around. In one discussion similar to this, someone was even recommending photographs of each and every animal being registered. Now just whom is going to do THAT little chore, much less pay for all of the film and then get it to the registering agency? Basically what it boils down to is that the major producers in this 'industry' just don't have the time and resources to participate in any sort of registry. It would be run, supported, and used only by hobbiests or people producing a bare minimum number of animals. So if you had a registry of say, corn snakes, and SerpenCo, South Mountain, and Corn-Utopia did not participate, then what would be the point of it? Yeah I know it sounds like a good idea, but when you get down to checking out the nuts and bolts of how it would all have to fit together, it just is not a workable plan. And this doesn't even address the concerns of a lot of people of having a readily accessible database of all of their inventory available to other people at will. Personally, I just do not want people to be able to view the genetics of many of my projects and perhaps try to beat me to the punch on a project I've been working on for a few years. Hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but I've seen several of these registry projects actually get off of the ground before crashing and burning. And even more of them that people got all enthusiastic over and badgered me to death about it until I spelled out exactly why I wasn't interested in participating. I have my own database of all of my animals and have not had the time to key in the raw data since 1996! I don't know of anyone in this business that is making enough money to be able to hire a full time records keeper, but that is basically what it would entail. |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3893.html Posted At 01:59:55 05/30/2001 You're right Rich. There are a lot of reasons a snake may not eat, but the ones I have mentioned was my experience and we could probably list 100 or more if we started to really consider it, but the problem would be if it doesn't eat it will die and if it is guaranteed to be healthy it should be feeding. I still believe if you sell a animal to someone with proir experience/knowledge or to someone that has done their homework and they make an educated decision to buy this animal and they did everything they were supposed to and there is a reason the animal did not thrive other than neglect or lack of suffecient knowlede and especially if that reason comes back to it being sick from birth or it simply won't eat then it should be replaced. The time limit is the thing that needs to be addressed. I don't believe 24-48 hours is enough. You need at least one week. You can't feed them most of the time after shipping for 2-4 days and if you try to feed them and they don't want to eat you will have some time to go through some options. You could try feeding live or try other prey items in the animals food chain. I could buy a snake from anyone and I can't get it to eat, but when I send it back it eats and then it can go back and forth. I think the guarantee and time limit should be re-thought. You can't just say here is your animal, good luck and you're on your own. Most dealers don't. They let you know up front what their policies are and some will work with you when you call with your concerns. Some dealers have been very helpful. I had one send me some rats they were using and he finally ate so I tried their supplier and eventually wound up with who I am using now. I know there are a lot of dealers that bend over backwards trying to keep their customers happy even when it is against their better judgement and they should be applauded. On the other hand there are those that will sell you a animal knowing full well it will die within a week or two. These are the people making it hard for the honest dealers. These are the people we need protection from and the honest will suffer as they always do. Sitting here thinking as I write I also have considered that all the dishonest dealers will always rip you off even if the animal comes with a 10 year guarantee, but I still think that the guarantee and time limit needs to be revisited to allow ample time to discover if your animal is in fact healthy. Live arrival just isn't enough to make me want to buy from someone because again there are too many people that will knowingly ship you a sick animal. Sadly we won't ever be able to weed out the bad people for every one we expose or get rid of 10 will take his place. Hopefully one day a system will come about that will make this and other hobbies perfect. Until then we have to rely on the honest dealers to set the example weather they are large or small. Honesty isn't cheap and it comes in all shapes, sizes and colors. Nuff said. Ernie |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3897.html Posted At 08:57:17 05/30/2001 Ernie, I have a question. I know by reading your posts that you're into boas. So I'll use a boa as an example. Let's say I have a nice looking Surinam Red-tail. Outwardly healthy, and it has eaten for me once. I've only had the animal for a week and I want to sell it $100. If I'm not willing to give a guarantee, are you not confident enough in your ability to judge the animal that you would pass it up? That might sound like a veiled insult (it is in no way intended to be) but I can't think of another way to word it. My question is this, are you, and others, really willing to pay $250-300 for the SAME SNAKE if it comes with a 2 week guarantee?? It has been my experience that you can USUALLY tell if an animal is sick, as long as you know what to look for. I mean hey, I don't mind charging you the extra $200 but wouldn't you the customer be better off in the long run if you educated yourself as to what to look for in an animal you're about to purchase? I personally would rather buy three surinames w/ my $300 using what I know about snakes. I'll await your response. Brian |
| Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3900.html Posted At 10:51:31 05/30/2001 Brian, let me give you my take on that. If we lived in a perfect world, the snake I was purchasing would be located within driving distance. Then I would have no problem seeing the actual animal I was purchasing. This is not usually the case with me though. The internet has changed the way we do business. Now I am asked to buy animals either sight unseen or with just a pic as referance. If you think that will work, go up a few threads and read about Kris' experience with the albino Burm. That is why I feel these guarantees are valid. I would have no problem forgoing the guarantee if I could see the animal I was buying. Thanks again for your time, -Your Sick Uncle Morti. Redtailboa.net/org! |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3901.html Posted At 12:01:03 05/30/2001 Mr. Smith, maybe that's my problem, I do live in a perfect world, Florida. Just about any animal I could want is within driving distance. And no offense to Kris but if I was going to spend $5000 on an animal I would drive, fly, hell walk to see it, before I laid out any cash. I can understand what your saying about the internet changing things and the need for a guarantee when dealing over the net. However, does this mean that when you're at a show where the buyer can see the animal up front and make their own decision, that you then offer the animal at a lower price w/o a guarantee? Or does your price/guarantee stay the same whereever you are selling? Let's face it, the general reptile buying public at a show, is going to buy the $100 dollar snake much faster than the $300 one. Again it comes down to what you label your business. I would guess you would say that wholesale, wheither it be price or quantity, has no business on the web. Because as we know wholesale comes w/ no guarantee (other than live arrival). I have no problem w/ that idea, I just wonder if the public knows the $300 they are paying for the snake includes $200 worth of guarantee that they most likely won't need. Brian |
| Donnie Smith, Morti from redtailboa.net |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3908.html Posted At 14:09:03 05/30/2001 I live in Louisville, KY which is a Herp Free zone. My only options are internet. That is why I feel so strongly about all this. Most of the topics on this site do not involve in-person sales. It is usually trades or deliveries. I can understand selling warrenty free at a show. I can't say that I like it, but I understand it. -Your Sick Uncle Morti. |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3932.html Posted At 01:23:11 05/31/2001 I agree with Donnie. If I saw it in person I could tell if I wanted it or not or if it was fairly healthy. I would also have the dealer feed the snake in front of me so I would know it was eating. I have bought boas in person and on the internet. The guarantee I'm speaking of is for internet purchases. When you buy over the internet most of the time you see a pic and get a description and when it arrives sometimes it's what you expect, other times it's not. When I buy an animal I expect it to live and I will do everthing I can to see that it does. It is rediculous for me to expect it to die. I may as well throw my money away. I don't think the price should reflect the guarantee. The dealer should be confident enough in his product to guarantee it will thrive for a reasonable period of time if it is going to another dealer or experienced herper. If it is going to an amatuer herper or someone that just decided to one day buy a reptile, then I think the 24-48 hour guarantee will suffice. Again this is only for internet sales. You or anyone else can guarantee live arrival with good intentions, but it is the people purposely selling sick animals for profit with no intent of ever replacing the animal or refunding any money that is what's ruining this hobby and making it harder for honest dealers. There is no way to tell an honest herper from a dishonest one. There are those that are well established and no one ever need to worry about them, but they won't always have what you want as they will sell out quickly so sometimes you need to buy from the little guy or the not so well known. With the growing number of con artists in any field we need to protect ourselves and again the honest dealers are the ones that will suffer for it because they will be the ones expected to set the example. Again don't get me wrong, some dealers have a reputation, big and small that can't be beat and when you buy from them you are getting the best money can buy with no worries and they have no need to change what they're doing. It's the new dealers or small dealers and the borderline (between good and bad) dealers that will have to change their policies to compete. It is always hard to extend a guarantee as the thought and fear of it backfiring and costing you money will always haunt you. I still think it needs to be taken on a case by case basis. You can guarantee live healthy arrival and that it will feed within 2-4 days, but when dealing with another breeder or an experienced herper you need to make exceptions. When the buyer knows the animal as well as the dealer and it just won't eat or it starts acting strange then the should have the option of returning it and if it goes so far as it needing a necropsy and the evidence shows beyond any doubt it was sick prior to receiving it then the dealer should also stand behind it. I know there are consumer laws that protect us from unscroupulous people, but I do not know the extent of the laws or if it covers animals, pets or livestock so all this discussion may be a mute point as this law will prevail in any situation for the buyer or dealer, but if a dealer chooses to make a better guarantee than the law alows to simply boast his confidence in his business and product then that is his perogative. I can't say what will work or what will be the perfect solution. All I can say is this is my opinion and because of the idiots things will have to change. Nuff said. Ernie |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
3938.html Posted At 08:05:52 05/31/2001 Agreed, purposly selling sick animals is wrong period. Ernie you made the statement that the guarantee shouldn't increase the price. How then as a breeder am I supposed to cover the cost of the guarantee if I don't raise my prices to do so. It goes w/o saying that some animals are going to get sick when shipped. Rich probably said it best, there's nothing that causes more problems than shipping. So it is entirerly possible that I the breeder safely package up a healthy snake, ship it the best way I know how, and when the animal gets to you, the buyer, it be sick, dead, or dying. Ernie you are paying for that guarantee wheither you know it or not. When you buy from "the big guys," you pay a premium price. You're paying for the snake you recieve and at least part, if not all of another one or two, or even three in some cases. If you think I'm lying call a large wholesaler and ask them what they pay for baby boas. You'll be amazed. If you're a breeder you'll be insulted. But you know what, that wholesaler won't call you back in two weeks and say, "hey, this snake died I want my money back!" It has always been my policy to offer the public great snakes at the best PRICE possible. I usually take the price the wholesalers are willing to pay for my animals and compare that with what they charge for the same animal on their list. I then set my price somewhere in between. 5 years ago I didn't even bother w/ selling to the public, I wholesaled everything. However, when it got to the point that the wholesaler was offering me $4 for snakes he then sold for $24 I got a little angry. I didn't feel that my profit margain should be that low. So I started selling my snakes directly to the public for $12. This practice has gotten me banned from one show here in FL. The guy who runs the show said he lost $1200 worth of business in one day with me in the building. He even had the nerve to come tell me I needed to raise my prices because they weren't fair to the other vendors!! This gentleman is a wholesaler, in fact he still buys from me at other shows and even hands me flyers advertising his show. But whenever I call to sign up, all the tables are sold. When I sell that snake for $12 it comes as is, and as it is at a show usually everyone understands that. In the rare case there is problem brought to my attention I offer all the knowledge and help I can. If the animal dies I usually offer a discount on a future purchase (even that kills my profit margin). Now if I were to sell that $12 snake over the internet and offer a 2 week guarantee, I don't think I'd be in business much longer. If I raise my price to say $25-30 for the same snake I might be ok. That $25-30 price IS what you are seeing folks. I spend enough time on kingsnake and herp auction and at shows to know. Ernie I'll even go so far as to say that, yes, internet sales should come with some form of guarantee. But realize, as the buyer, you ARE paying for it, and YOU need make sure of the terms BEFORE there is a problem. After all, you're the one who may get left with a sick or dead animal if you don't. Brian |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4005.html Posted At 16:47:39 06/01/2001 I see what you're saying Brian and if I could get boas at that price I wouldn't complain too much, but the least I paid for any of my boas at wholesale was $75 with healthy live arrival guarantee for 24 hours, but still when I said I couldn't get the animal to feed after I had it for 3 days they said to try this or that if it didn't work then return it and it would be replaced no questions asked. Also over the internet some pics are not very good, including my own, so if I get a snake that isn't properly represented I expect some sort of restitution or to trade it for something that is as promised. If you were to sell a snake at the price of $12 the least you can do is offer live arrival with no other implied guarantees only that it will get to their door live, if you don't how do I know you didn't send me a dead snake? If I go to a show I inspect the boa, it's alive and moving about and after inspecting it I decide if I want it or not and it is most of the time as is, but still I know the consumer laws protect me as a consumer from buying something that is defective or the person should have had prior knowledge it was sick. I am not an expert and I could miss something in the purchace. Still at $12 a pop I wouldn't complain too much for a boa at that price. I don't know what you sell for $12, but if it was a boa (I have seen boas go for $35 wholesale, I do not know what the guarantee was or even if there was one)I could buy 10 of them at $12 for what an average price is today and expect at least half of them to arrive live and make enough profit to satisfy the loss. Seeing an animal in person and buying over the internet is entirely different as I do not have the chance to inspect it. If I recieve it through UPS or whoever I should still have the oppurtunity to inspect it and refuse it for health defects or improper color or representation. I am not saying that you the dealer should pay all shipping costs, but some sort of arangement should be agreed to unless it arrives dead, then it is a simple matter of refunding all costs, including shipping or send out another snake. If any dealer ships their animal they should make every effort to ensure live, safe and in some cases warm (not hot or cold) arrival and that it is the animal as adequatly described. If a dealer is selling healthy animals he should have no problem, with out inflating the price, giving a minimum guarantee of live arrival. What I am complaining about is the healthy part of the guarantee that some people promise because to me healthy means it will feed and thrive period. This field has fallen prey to too many predators trying to turn a quick buck at our expence not to expect a minimum guarantee, but still I could also argue the other side of that coin because even with the best implied guarantee doesn't mean you are dealing with an honest dealer. What I am trying to say is if it is a repeat customer or fellow breeder/dealer that you are familiar or are becoming familiar with you need to keep them happy or give them some extra security to protect both of you and in the long run you will make more money from them than the weekend one time deal buyer, but even in the case of them being weekend buyers they should never feel that you have taken advantage of them or you have set out to con them out of their hard earned cash. I have dealt with several sales people, my brother can sell an air conditioner to an Eskimo in an igloo, point being that in the end they say what if I give you this guarantee at no extra cost to you, in writing, will that seal the deal? Yes this guarantee may or may not be factored in, I have seen and had this done to simply find out it was store policy or a manufactures guarantee or simply a consumer law, it was brought up to sweeten the deal, but it was a fact or fine print you didn't notice. What about the people that sells dogs and cats? They give better guarantees than the herp business, why? They ship by air freight. I had a friend buy a Rott from Germany it was dead on arrival and it was replaced no questions asked. I don't know if the dealer had it insured or not, but he got another Rott with out sending any more money or having to deal with the air line to get his money back, which brings up another point, with prices and guarantees aside, when a snake does arrive dead, why do we, the customer have to deal with the shipper, be it UPS or whoever, to get our money back? We gave the money to you, the dealer, why don't you go through the hassle of getting the money back and ship us a live snake at your expence or refund our total payment to you? If we send you $100 for the animal and $25 for shipping, in total we sent you $125, so why don't we get a full refund? We already paid for the animal and the shipping. I think this field is far from perfect as most things are, but unless we change things ourselves to make it better and make it harder for people to con us out of our hard earned money it will never be what we aspire for it to be. Nuff said. Ernie |
| Webmaster |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4011.html Posted At 18:22:17 06/01/2001 Holy Mackerel! You guys need to learn to use paragraph breaks in your messages! The way you write is way too hard on the eyes. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4045.html Posted At 10:57:29 06/03/2001 Ernie, at this point I don't ship so I couldn't tell you about the refund thing. However, I agree that the burden should fall on the seller. The $12 dollar snakes are usually corns, kings, milks and other stuff like that. This year, I'm getting fair wholesale prices on my boas so most are going out that way. |
| Ian Dungan |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4052.html Posted At 15:55:11 06/03/2001 whoa...now i may be a small time breeder/seller but what i DO offer is a FULL guarantee. if for WHATEVER reason,a customer is unhappy with his/her purchase i refund full purchace price/replace the animal,WHATEVER IT TAKES to make that customer come back to me next yuear or when ever.all animals are guaranteed to arrive live and healthy. bug/mite/tick/parasite free. i have had to jump through hoops before but it brings me a certain joy to know that i have made another customer HAPPY and proud of his/her purchase.in case of a DOA i tell my customer to send the animal back to me and i ask the customer "WHAT CAN I DO TO MAKE THIS RIGHT"? and as i said,whatever it takes. hope i didn't pi$$ anyone off here,just my 2 cents. Ian Dungan www.planetherp.com |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4072.html Posted At 01:34:14 06/04/2001 Sorry about it being all scrunched together with no paragraphs, but I am not a typist. I do it by hunt and peck. It takes me like a minute or two just to get a sentence out. You should be thankful I can spell(LOL). I only have a couple more boas to buy that I need, (until a new morph comes out that I want), but anyway, Peter Kahl lives near where I use to live in Maryland (I lived in Bel Air, now I live near Richmond in Virginia) so I'll probably buy them from him. I have a couple other people I may buy them from, it depends on who has what I need when I need it. I probably won't be buying too many more boas due to the cost of taking care of them and I'm running out of room. I won't have to worry about shipping hopefully because when I have some babies I am thinking of going to the shows here and Maryland and maybe in Florida to sell them and I have some contacts at local pet stores. I need to get 1-2 adult striped Albinos and 2 adult Super Hypos and a male 4ft Surinam. I am in no hurry to get them. As long as I get what I want I'll be happy. I am talking with my insurance co. to settle with them. It's anyone's guess how that will turn out. They have been dragging it out forever now. As for my previous post about the guarantees. I know you can't make everyone happy and some things have to be factored into the price. The things that are ruining it for us are the companies we can ship through as they don't want to continue to ship and guarantee the health of our animals, but the biggest problem is the scam artists. They need to be castrated. I wonder what it would take to start a animal shipping business? Just animals, nothing else. How many of you would use a service like this? How much would you be willing to pay? I think if we can find a dependable shipper and take some of the risk off the breeder/dealer that better guarantees would become common place. We also need to find a way, other than places like this, although this is an excellent resource, to weed out the illegitimate or fly by night business people. Even if it took a minor liscence or something. On the other hand people like me that do it has a hobby may think it is a pain, but if it was monitered correctly and not too expensive, but expensive enough to keep out the riff raff, I think it would be worth it. Anyone have any thougts about that? I have been thinking of starting a pet sitting business for reptiles (locally) where the people wouldn't have to bring the animal to me, I would go to them. So the people wouldn't have to worry about their animal getting any stress or their pet getting sick from exposure to other reptiles. Of course it would have to be a bonded or insured company so they would feel safe letting a stranger into their home. Would any of you use a sevice like this? What would you be willing to pay? I love boas, I like other snakes too, but I like big snakes (boas) better than any other, but not so big that I can become part of their food chain one day. I know I am going to catch some flack on this, but one of my thoughts are to start a boa farm raising boas for their skin for the Harley riders and builders to use as seat covers and for other uses. They have Ostrich and a few other types of skins. I have even seen Sting Ray, shark, eel and other types of skins used for seats, boots and belts. I know if you become dependable, well known and can provide something new and different that you can make a decent living breeding boas as pets, but in my opinion you can make just as much if not more selling the skins. I know, I know, it's harsh and before I start getting hate mail I want to restate that I do love my boas and they are my pets and none of them will ever end up under some one's butt. They use to raise gators for their skins, I think they still do, but they raise other cute little fuzzie animals for their skins too so this isn't a new concept. I think I could get $5,000-$10,000 from Albino skins depending on how many seats they'll cover or how far they'll go. Some regular handmade cowhide covered Harley seats are going for over $1,000. I know I can get more for rarer skins. This is just a thought, it may or may not become a reality so don't be too hard on me please. Well, i got to go. Thanks Ernie |
| Brian Conley |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4103.html Posted At 06:14:42 06/05/2001 Ernie, $5000-$10000!!!!! Danm I'm in the wrong business. I believe the skin trade still makes up the largest part of reptile imports into this country. Yes, they still raise captive, and kill wild gators for their skin. I have sold some LARGE burmese skins to taxidermists in the past, (only after a natural death folks), and really had a hard time finding someone to take them. I think the last skin I sold brought $20. If I find out he's selling Harley seat covers for thousands of $$ I'm gonna be pissed!! LOL One tax. told me the albino skins were "worthless" as they did not hold up to the tanning process well and tended to lose all their color. So you might want to talk to the tax. BEFORE you skin those nice boas!! Brian |
| Ernie Watts |
Re: All Breeders, dealers, and buyers.(inquiry, long )
4319.html Posted At 02:58:06 06/09/2001 I have seen a couple exotic snake skins on Harley seats and it was over $2,500(if I remember right). I have also seen them on boots, belts and hat bands. I had a vest made from Rattle snake. You just have to find someone that knows how to cure it right. Just because they hang a sign claiming to be a taxidermist doesn't mean they're good. I have seen Shark, Eel, Sting Ray, Ostrich, Gator, Horse, Cow (of course), Snake (Albino Burmese), and I think I remember a Camel or Llama somewhere in there too. With every one wanting to be different and stand out from the crowd it won't be long until the exotic skin market will boom. When I say $5,000-$10,000 I'm talking about a BIG snake that could cover 5-7 seats and I am talking about making the seats your self. My brother use to deal in Minks and made a bundle, but it became too much of a hassle for him and he was forced to stop, something about livestock in city limits, not to mention Vet costs, theft's and predators. The little boogers breed like rabbits almost. If you are interested in selling skins try the big Harley seat experts like Danny Gray, Corbin or Le Pera. There are a lot of others, but you get the point. Bike builders are turning out something different every day. They have to, just to keep in the game. With bikes costing $100,000 you better believe it will be a one off. What do you all think about the other ideas? Like the Reptile sitting business? Weel I got to get some sleep. Thanks. Ernie |