| Author | Subject: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence? |
| Marcia McGuiness - The Lizard Lady | Posted At 10:04:48 06/16/2001
Last month I posted an inquiry on this forum about Groom's Crickets, and recieved numerous e-mails from folks all over the country who order crix from them. I was shocked to find several others who have had the same experience I have had. I liked Groom's service, and never had any problems with them. Here is the situation... I began using Groom's in November of 2000 until April 2001. Since then, I have lost 12 of my adult breeder Leopard Geckos to a horrible death that could not be diagnosed with any conventional tests, and have 2 more that are very sick. Of the 12 I lost, I had necropsies done on 4 of them after I had lost 4 others, and could never get a diagnosis from fecal tests, blood tests, or oral/vent swab cultures. I had the first post-mortem done, and the results showed fatty lipidosis of the liver. When I had the second done, it was the same diagnosis. These pathologies were performed by the lab my Vet uses, and cost me about $150.00 each. When the 3rd gecko was on death's door, I took her to UC Davis Veterinary School and sacrificed her to the Exotic Animal Dept. They reported the same thing.... hepatic lipidosis. This cost about $250.00. I called Dr. Roger Klingenberg (author of Understanding Reptile Parasites) and we discussed every symptom and lab result that was performed on my Leos, and we came to no conclusion. (Mind you, I had already had acid-fast stain tests done on the feces of several of my sick ones to test for Crypto, all negative, which cost about a grand total of $600.00!) He referred me to Dr. Frederick L. Frye, who is probably the world's most famous Reptile Pathologist and Epidemiologist for over 40 years, and the author of numerous books and college textbooks on the subject of reptile diseases and parasites. I contacted Dr. Frye with all the details, and shipped him another little Leo that was very sick for the 4th necropsy. (He only charged me $90.00 for a complete full-post.) He performed the most thorough pathology anyone could imagine, and also found hepatic lipidosis. But he also diagnosed the cause... severe mycotoxicosis caused by my Leos ingesting crickets that were cultured on moldy food! Apparently, crickets can store up incredible amounts of this toxin in their bodies, and by my geckos eating them over a period of time built up lethal quantities in their livers. They had been poisoned. I researched Mycotoxicosis, but could only find veterinary reports and papers on poultry and how this mold can grow on their feed, causing many poultry farmers to lose entire stocks of chickens to mycotoxicosis. When I asked Groom's Cricket Ranch what they feed their crickets, guess what? They feed their crickets and mealworms CHICKEN MASH!!!! They are located in Louisiana, where it is hot and humid... the perfect conditions for mold to grow. So there you have it. Since I switched cricket vendors, (I use Sequoia Ranches now) I have been able to get 4 other sick Leos to fully recover, and still have 2 that are sick. I have been literally hand-feeding 18 Leopard Geckos every day for the last 8 months, not including the little hypothermic jungle female. This whole ordeal has cost me thousands of dollars from all the expenses, and the loss of 10 of my adult breeding females (plus the 4 that were sick and 2 that still are) has caused this year's stock of babies to be down by virtually 60-100 clutches! That's as many as 200 hatchlings worth an average of $50-150 each. Through my previous post, I have found others who have lost herps to the same "black death", including another breeder who has lost over 20 Leopard Geckos and a couple of Beardies. All of the fatalities occurred in the same time frame as mine, and all were fed on Groom's crickets. None of them went to the extent I did in having theirs necropsied, so this cannot be proven that the Groom's crix were the cause. I this just a coincidence? But it's really not about the money. I truly love my Leos, and can't bear watching them suffer and not being able to help them. I am disabled with FMS, and the stress and grief this has created actually put me in the hospital in May with one of the worst exacerbations I have ever had. I am sick with heartbreak, and overwhelmed with loss. Has ANYONE who uses Groom's Crickets experienced ANY health problems with their herps? |
| Corey Sawyer |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4602.html Posted At 12:17:57 06/16/2001 I dont like grooms because they substituted one size for anotehr without telling me. But feeding crickets chiecken mash is fine, as long as they clean the cricket bins up. Corey |
| Mike Theurer |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4607.html Posted At 17:38:02 06/16/2001 I have had problems with my pictus geckos they get to a certain size and then would die for no explainable reason.I have fed them on grooms crickets for the whole time and this would make more sense to me with what you have ahd done .I will look into a different company to try out. |
| Michael B. |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4626.html Posted At 14:59:14 06/17/2001 I too used Grooms until I spoke to Mrs. McGuiness and just figured it wasnt worth the risk. I as well am using Sequoia Ranches now and have been happy with their service and prices. They do not feed chicken mash, which was my first concern when switching over. So sorry to hear about your losses Marcia but its nice to hear about someone going to all lengths to save their little friends......Michael Beberman |
| craig goldie/hardcore reptiles |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4628.html Posted At 16:15:33 06/17/2001 right off i have nothing to say about grooms farms i have not dealt with them,no opion on the farms from me. but if im not mistaken chicken chow has ampor in it ,a medication right? i used chicken feed before with great losses to my delicate chameleons,one tough girl would throw up her crix and that got me thinking,the place i bought the chow {for crix feed} swore to me that it was not medicated,but i will not use it again at all.sorry for your loss i know how painful it can be |
| Grooms Cricket Farm, Inc. |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4646.html Posted At 15:26:53 06/18/2001 It's a funny thing to me that we ship over 500,000 crickets per week to the reptile industry and this is the only negative site I have been introduced to about my company. We have reptile breeders and owners that buy from 1,000 to 50,000 crickets per week and have never received a complaint that there reptiles have died because of our crickets. It has been said that we have some of the healthiest crickets in the industry. Ms. McGuiness has never questioned me about our feed and we certainly DO NOT USE CHICKEN MASH. I called our feed company and asked them if they have had any complaints about the feeds ability to mold or any other cases like this and they have not. Our feed company stated that if the feed was molded, one the crickets would not eat it and two they would probably die. Our feed company is even willing to stand by us in a lawsuit if it goes that far. We sell our feed in bags to our customers, some of which ordered feed today and they all told me they have experienced nothing but success since they began to use our feed. Also we are not located in Louisiana, we are located in Georgia. I think the coincidence is that I have never had any complaints and ship millions of crickets per month. If any of my customers would like to speak with me more on this matter please e-mail me or call me toll free and I can provide some substantial evidence on paper that prove Ms. McGuiness' findings are incorrect. I can also provide other customers who breed lots of leopard geckos to attest that they have never experienced any losses, and that in their opinion Ms. McGuiness is sadly mistaken. As far as Ms. McGuiness stating that she received numerous e-mails from people experiencing the same problem, why didn't she inlcude their names and information in her report. Afterall this is suppose to be a "mysterious coincidence." Ms. McGuiness has got a pretty convincing story put together, but I can assure my current and future customers that there will be a reprise to this report or it will be removed as soon as my attorneys respond. With kind regards, I remain Chris Grooms |
| Mike Habel |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4659.html Posted At 08:29:31 06/19/2001 I have used grooms crickets for a while now and I have had nothing but great crickets from them. My lizards love them and all my lizards are still kickin. Well just wanted to put in a good word for Grooms crickets |
| Kevin Hanley |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4668.html Posted At 17:22:42 06/19/2001 My geckos have never been, or produced better, we go through 5-6 thousand crickets per week and wouldn't switch to another cricket supplier if they gave us the the crickets. We have been getting crickets from grooms since they started selling them. Our geckos have laid over 1500 eggs this season, and doing great. Crickets are great when they come in, if care for them correctly there shouldn't be a problem. albinogeckos.com |
| Angela Dean |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4682.html Posted At 22:36:18 06/19/2001 I was getting ready to say "Isn't Grooms in Georgia?" I ordered from them for quite awhile and never had any problems with my leos. Had one incident where the crickets arrived 95% dead from the cold and they were promptly replaced. |
| sue frederick |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4697.html Posted At 07:12:05 06/20/2001 I also have ordered from Groom's. We have had no problems with our animals - a savannah monitor and a White's tree frog. Almost 100% of the crix are alive when we receive them. I did email Chris about this post and my concerns, and he has assured me that the crix food they use is a special blend they have been using for a very long time. It was developed by his father. sue |
| Chad Jacobs |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4729.html Posted At 18:01:13 06/20/2001 I've been using grooms since they Started, i was sent to them by frank retes of goanna ranch, so far i've raised up 150 bearded dragons,4 ackies,2 black throats,2 chameleons,and 4 geckos all on grooms crickets .None of my animals have ever been anything but healthy.I also know many other breeders and keepers of bearded dragons and monitors that use grooms.all would swear by them as i do.Chad |
| Ronnie Buck |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4776.html Posted At 01:11:11 06/22/2001 Grooms is our insect supplier and who we recommend to all of our customers and visitors to our website. I've never had any problems with the health of my reptiles because of crickets supplied by Grooms. Did you ever think to have a box of fresh crickets tested for a specific mycotoxin (aflatoxin, zearalenone, trichotechenes and ochratoxins being the most common) before making a post like this? You really need direct evidence of mycotoxicosis, including the isolation and proper identification of a specific mycotoxin in the cricket feed, the crickets themselves, and tissue or body fluid from the affected animal before jumping to conclusions. What you have just isn't enough to convince me that Grooms is the source of your trouble. The necropsy provided the COD, but it didn't provide the source and there is no way Dr. Frye would ever state matter of factually "But he also diagnosed the cause... severe mycotoxicosis caused by my Leos ingesting crickets that were cultured on moldy food!", atleast not without having a CB analysis (samples of the feed would be ground and mixed before sub samples could be extracted with chloroform. A portion of the extract would then be placed on a column of silica gel, and the lipids and pigment eluted from the column. After the mycotoxins are properly eluted, they would then be analyzed by TLC, HPLC or gas-chromatography-mass spectrometry) to support this claim. Just my 2 cents, Ronnie Buck Australian Beardies |
| Nick Thomas |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4864.html Posted At 20:53:22 06/25/2001 I have never ordered from Groom's cricket farms. I do however, know Marcia Mcguiness. I can say I probably have never known a more honest person. I know she takes great care of her leos and loves them very much. This is a place to post bad experiences. I don't believe she has any thing to gain by putting down grooms. And she clearly put the title as mysterious coincedence? Implying she wasn't sure if this was the cause. I do believe her though as I have not known her to lie. |
| Marcia McGuiness - The Lizard Lady |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4869.html Posted At 00:21:11 06/26/2001 I appreciate the responses from all of you on this forum, as well as the numerous e-mails I recieved as a result of my post. If the folks from Groom's and Ronnie Buck would re-read my post, I'm sure they will realize that in my first paragraph I stated that I was happy with Groom's service. I have never had a problem with the quality or the shipping of their crickets. Also, you will see in my post heading that I am inquiring about this tragedy in an effort to rule-out coincidence, and have NOT accused anyone of anything! I am the kind of person that will gather all the information I can before making ANY statements of that nature. Certainly any of you would do the same thing if you had lost 12 of your Leos. I found it a coincidence that I started having sick geckos when I began using Groom's crix, and the was able to reverse the affects on a few of them when I stopped using Groom's! For your informaton, Dr. Frye DID indeed state on my full pathological report from the 4th necropsy he performed on my sick little Leo, that the cause of death was severe hepatic lipidosis caused by severe mycotoxicosis, and that it was most likely caused by the "chronic ingestion of insect prey that was cultured on moldy food" and thereby harboring lethal doses of mycotoxins. As you may be aware, Dr. Frye is in poor health and had a serious medical condition which required surgery within days of his report to me, and I had already changed cricket vendors by then. Yes, we both would have liked to perform tests on the crickets I was using, and to have isolated the specific mycotoxin that was responsible for this poisoning, but we could not. I would be happy to provide a copy of Dr. Frye's pathology report to any of you if you will e-mail me with your mailing address. As far as speaking with Groom's about this, I did contact them and spoke to a person named Wally who advised me that chicken mash IS what they feed their crix. LOTS of cricket farms do! This is NOT the issue, but the fact that certain poultry feeds and grains are highly susceptible to molding in warm humid conditions... You will also find that in paragraph 8 of my original post, the last sentence says, "None of them went to the extent I did in having theirs necropsied, so this cannot be proven that the Groom's crix were the cause. I this just a coincidence?" I am not on any "band-wagon" to slander anyone's business. I am a disabled, small-scale breeder of Leopard Geckos who has been devastated by the loss of 12 of my beautiful, gentle Leos to an agonizing death, and wanted to know WHY. In my opinion, if a cricket supplier was truly comitted to providing excellent customer service, they would be concerned about this tragedy instead of jumping on the "legal" aspect. So, bring on your attorney(s)if you feel you must... but in the meantime, PLEASE keep whatever you are feeding your crickets dry and free of mold. I would not wish what I have experienced on anyone. Sincerely, Marcia McGuiness "The Lizard Lady" |
| Marcia McGuiness - The Lizard Lady |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4878.html Posted At 16:59:12 06/26/2001 Since my previous post #4599 on this forum, I have received a letter from Groom's Cricket Farm's attorney demanding that I cease and desist from making defamitory remarks against Mr. Groom and Groom's Cricket Farms. I have been accused of "defaming Mr. Groom's character and reputation with the intent to injure his business." I have been threatened with the "pursuit of legal remedies" because of my post. I have also spoken to Mr. Groom, and he has demanded that I have the previous post removed or he will proceed with filing a civil action against me. It was not my wish to defame Mr. Groom's business, and most certainly have not done anything with the intent of injuring his business. My goal was to discover if others have experienced similar tragedies in order to "rule out" the possibility of coincidence in the agonizing deaths of 12 of my Leopard Geckos. Since I am disabled with FMS, I do not have the stamina physically or emotionally to deal with such a lawsuit... I've been through enough trauma and devastation already. I have therefore requested that my previous post be deleted at the demand of Mr. Groom. Marcia McGuiness "The Lizard Lady" |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4912.html Posted At 07:38:28 06/27/2001 Easy solution to this problem. I know there has to be a couple of vets and/or persons with laboratory access reading this forum. Why doesn't someone ramdomly order a box of Groom's crickets and test them for the toxin? Chris Grooms, I do not know either party involved in this dispute, but I can tell you that picking a legal battle as the first course of action in this case was, and will remain, a very unpopular choice to some of the readers of this forum. Why not simply prove your crickets are healhty by having them tested? Not only would this be a more popular choice, it would cost much less than some $400 an hour lawyer. Brian Conley |
| Zoe Stevens |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4944.html Posted At 15:55:04 06/27/2001 Grooms -- about "Ms. McGuiness has got a pretty convincing story put together."... WHY WOULD SHE MAKE SOMETHING LIKE THAT UP? ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY INSANE? |
| Roger Jolly |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
4966.html Posted At 23:05:58 06/27/2001 Hello! Say, I know some of you have had good results from Groom's but how are you all taking this lawsuit nonsense? Doesn't that rub you even a little bit the wrong way? So are you still going to support a company that attacks someone like this, but giving them your business? Personally I think it is a low blow and definitely not a trend we should want to encourage. So maybe at least a call or email to them might be worthwhile. Not suggesting that you cancel your account with them, but you do what you think is right. Who knows? It may be your negative post that puts you in the crosshairs next time. Thanks for listening. |
| Chris Grooms - Grooms Cricket Farm |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
5015.html Posted At 12:45:57 06/29/2001 I am Chris Grooms with Grooms Cricket Farm and this letter is in response to the many posts about our business and the unfortunate situation regarding Ms. Marcia McGuiness. I believe it may help the situation if I do a recap of my perceptions of the events, and explain my reactions to them. Please take time to read through this post and see the situation through my eyes. I was not even aware of Ms. McGuiness' problem until I received e-mails from customers and friends to check it out her message on this message board. Upon reading the post, of course I became very upset and took offense at it, which I think many of you would have done, being in my shoes. Possibly the shock and surprise element can best explain how I might have reacted in ways that were not appropriate. Hindsight is always 20-20. We pride ourselves with a good reputation for providing excellent service to our customers, and will do whatever is needed to resolve a problem. Prior to reading that message, I had never had any contact from Ms. McGuiness indicating that there was a problem, and I sincerely felt that if she really believed our crickets caused her leopard geckos harm, she should have called me personally and let me try to help out. Considering our reputation for handling customers with concerns, I would have made this one our top priority. It is because of this lack of contact from Ms. McGuiness, that I felt that we were unjustly accused of being the source of her geckos tragic illnesses and deaths. Although the information in her message sounded all well documented and well researched, and the tone of the message was not so much an accusation as a request for information, it still implied that my business was the cause of the problems. But I have to admit that the comment in Ms. McGuiness's message mentioning the success she was having with her new cricket provider, which she named, that particularly led me to believe she was attempting to target our business for harm. There really was no need, at that time to even mention names, as it had no bearing in the intent of her message. After reading her message, I tried to call Ms. McGuiness without success for a couple of days. I believe my timing in calling just didn't match her timing, as I was not able to reach her. It was only after these failed attempts to reach her by phone, that I felt it necessary to contact my attorney about writing her a letter concerning her message. I REALIZE NOW, THAT WAS NOT THE BEST THING I COULD HAVE DONE OR SHOULD HAVE DONE. And I will admit that my attorney, as attorneys can do sometimes, may have come on a bit too strongly in that letter. After receiving the letter from my attorney, Ms McGuiness sent me an e-mail in an effort to explain the post. Afterwards I attempted to call her again and this time was able to reach her. She was very pleasant to me on the phone and explained to me that what I perceived to be her intentions was not correct. Her intentions were simply to figure out why her leos were dying, and not to direct harm at my company. I explained to her that I was disappointed she did not call and try to work things out with me before taking her problem public, and that I really believed until that point she was trying to do my company harm, not figure out the problem with her leos. Again, I realize now the true intent of Ms. McGuiness' goal was the welfare of her animals, and not to damage my company's reputation. I am willing to say that I over-reacted and regret my action(s). But they all felt appropriate at the time. The last thing I wanted was to cause any more physical or emotional harm to Ms. McGuiness than she had already experienced. There will not be any further legal action taken on my part about this matter, and I hope we can bring this chapter to a close together. I feel very strongly that Grooms Cricket Farm has an excellent reputation for providing healthy crickets and great customer service and I do not want something like this to ruin our reputation or our customer relationships now and in the future. When we started this business, our goal was to give the best customer service possible, treat the small customer just as well as our larger customers, and just simply to be true to our word. So far we have succeeded, and we want to continue our track record. I do not believe it is necessary to have our crickets tested, simply because we have not had any complaints from anyone else about a problem such as Ms. McGuiness suffered. However, we also do not oppose it. If anyone would like our crickets tested, please call me or e-mail with the lab address of your choice and I will gladly submit a box for testing. In closing, I wish to restate that I do not believe our crickets caused Ms. McGuiness' leos illness or death. If they were the cause, I certainly expect I would have heard this from other customers, which we have not. I will admit, however, that I could have handled this situation much better. But I am human like everyone else out there, and can feel pain at being targeted in public, anger in being unjustly accused, frustration in having no way to resolve the problem, and humility and embarrassment when I realize I made a mistake in my reactions. However, I have learned something through this all that will hopefully make me a much wiser businessman. If nothing else positive comes out of this, I would at least hope that the point that has been made is for anyone having a problem to PLEASE let a company know about it before taking it public. We will bend over backwards to either solve the problem, or help you figure out the solution, but we have to know about it before we can do a thing about it. If anyone of you would put yourself into my shoes, you will probably find that my reactions were exactly how you would have reacted in my place. I only ask that you consider this before thinking bad of me, or my company. Thank you, Chris Grooms |
| Marcia McGuiness - The Lizard Lady |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
5056.html Posted At 12:47:32 07/01/2001 I believe it takes incredible humility and integrity for Mr. Grooms to have made this post, and I appreciate and respect his perspective. I have NEVER made ANY negative statement or opinion regarding Groom's Cricket Farms service or products, and I sincerely regret that this tragedy has escalated to the point it has. Thank you Mr. Grooms for making this statement. I feel confident that this ordeal can be resolved with mutual respect and compassion for the other's point of view. As I have already stated, please be assured that I did indeed speak to someone at Groom's when this situation came to light... it was just the wrong person I talked to! It was my intent to gather as much factual information BEFORE I made any accusations or allegations against Groom's business. Yes, I may have implied that Groom's crickets were the culprits, and perhaps I have also over-reacted, but keep in mind that I have never experienced the trauma of the horrible and needless deaths of 12 of my beloved Leopard Geckos, nor have I experienced being threatened with a lawsuit, either. As Mr. Gooms stated, we are ALL only human, and it is human nature to protect that which we love. I wanted to protect my geckos, and he wanted to protect his business. I would also like to acknowledge and offer my most sincere thanks to Rich Z for his committment and involvement in this "sticky dilemma", as I can hardly imagine the level of energy and emotions he has extended with this situation. I am deeply grateful to him for providing this forum, and for using the democratic process of putting the question to the forum users to help him determine the final outcome of this issue. I am overwhelmed by the unsolicited support by those of you who have responded with your opinions on this matter. Please accept my heartfelt appreciation for your encouragement and generosity in offering your financial assistance in the event this issue required me to seek legal counsel. I am indeed very fortunate to have such a remarkable network of friends. Sincerely, Marcia McGuiness "The Lizard Lady" |
| Lucy Letton |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
8377.html Posted At 16:15:21 08/29/2001 I do not raise geckos or lizards. I raise sugar gliders, and the sugar glider community is losing glider after glider after colonies of gliders to the same liver deterioration described in the first post. It is nearly of epidemic proportions, with everyone I talk to knowing someone who has lost at least one glider (confirmed by necropsies) to the same hepatitic disease process. In several cases, feed/bedding for crickets has been isolated as the cause, as the corn/chicken mash -- used almost universally -- often contains these mycotoxins, specifically aflatoxins. Peanuts are another frequent target of these toxins, produced by mold. In the sugar glider community, we have researchers at Texas A&M, zoo pathologists, and other scientists researching and examining this problem. It is a genuine concern. I am not a poster here, but was referred to this link. I'm sorry this was taken personally by a particular insect farm, as the implications are far beyond any one source. We all need to be working together on this, not being divided over the smaller issues. Good luck with this forum and this issue in your part of the exotics world. |
| Suzy Demaree |
Re: Groom's Crickets - Mysterious coincidence?
8889.html Posted At 14:46:30 09/08/2001 I too am part of the sugar glider community, and am very concerned about the feeding of healthy crickets to my gliders. I have a message for Mr. Grooms, we in the glider community cannot find a cricket farm that does not use some form of corn product in the feed or bedding of raising the crickets. These toxins are found very heavily in corn products!! If you, Mr. Grooms could raise crickets in either oat or bran, people grade foods, we feel the possibilities of the Aflatoxins getting into the DNA of crickets and therefore the crickets becoming hosts to these toxins that are killing out beloved pets. It will do no good to test your crickets for these toxins, for it becomes part of their DNA, and will not show up in tests. The bedding and feed must be tested on a regualar basis, and must not contain corn products. You, sir sounded like a very caring person, who wants to run his business in a good fashion. I would encourage you to study into this, it is a real concern and we in the glider community would very uch like to find a good souce of crickets raised competely free of any and all corn products. We are loosing our gliders within 2 to 3 months with the same fatty deposits on the livers, as described above by Ms. McGuiness. Many top pathologist are convinced it's source to be the feed and bedding of crickets that are raised on any corn product. You would do us an immense favor by providing us with crickets our gliders need for a balanced diet, if we knew they were not raised on a corn product. Thank you very much for giving this the concern that is necessary!! |