| Author | Subject: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group |
| Webmaster | Posted At 16:40:24 06/26/2001
Just today I received an email from a person posting a message a couple of weeks ago about an experience she had with products from a certain company, as indicated by results from veterinarians' tests and opinions. Well, this certain company has had their attorney issue a letter to this person, threatening legal action if the post is not removed from this message board. This certainly puts me in a bind, since I do not delete posts by request of either party, but it could certainly put her in a bind if I do not. I can handle the law suit threats against myself, but this is a different situation. On one hand we have the possible integrity of this message board at stake, and on the other hand we have the possibility of a legal battle by someone posting facts as they understand them and their own opinions. Leave the message? Delete the message? Replace the text of the message with a note of WHY it was removed? This is an important issue because each and every one posting here could be subjected to the very same treatment, regardless of your being right or wrong. If you do not have the right to speak your mind for fear of harrassment from pet lawyers, then you do not have the right to speak, period. Advice? |
| Devon Smith |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4879.html Posted At 17:11:49 06/26/2001 She was reporting a problem and was wondering if anyone had the same issue. Some did - some didnt. There is nothing defamitory about the post and it should stand. If this is erased then others should also be as there have been some truley defmaitory comments posted here. This type of posting is what this board was intended for. |
| Andrew Potts |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4880.html Posted At 17:32:00 06/26/2001 Leave it up......When it comes to censorship there is no grey area. Just like if i say something to someone, once said it can't be taken back. The same should hold true for the net. Even though you can erase the statements you should'nt, especially under the threat of a law suit. So do the right thing and don't give in. Ciao. Sincerely, Andrew Potts |
| Tim Bowles |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4881.html Posted At 17:47:58 06/26/2001 Hmmmmmm, lets see. Free speech or lawyer controlled censorship? What was it our Vets died defending? Oh, thats right the constitution and the bill of rights not bottom feeders. If nothing in the post was defamitory or slanderous then drowned as many lawyers as it takes to see it stays. They dont have a leg to stand on. Its only a bottom feeders trick to intimidate and harrass the poster into submission. These parasitic ticks on the ass of our legal system need to learn they cant suck the life out of everyone and get fat doing it. LEAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Kat |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4882.html Posted At 17:58:12 06/26/2001 I think this should be the case where it's best to do as little harm as possible. Since she has requested the post be deleted, and since she'd be in rather big legal trouble if she doesn't get it deleted, I think the post should be removed, possibly with an explaination in it's place. If you leave the post up, you're likely to do more harm than good. The harm to the poster, in this case, is greater than the possible harm if people are not informed of the information in her post. Reguardless of her intent, the post she made LOOKS like an intent to cast serious suspiscion on the feeder company and apparently (from what I read in subsequent posts) contains misinformation. She realizes that her wording and tone was a mistake, and if she's not allowed to correct this mistake, she'll end up in serious trouble. At some point you're going to have to decide if it makes more sense to a) stick to the rules, or b) generally stick to the rules, but use common sense in dealing with exceptions. Do you want to have a zero tolerance policy, or a policy that's normally firm, but flexible in extraordinary circumstances? Which is the better deal? Is it worth more for the Herper community to have her testimony to read and sacrifice her to the lawyers than to just remove the post at her request and spare her the hardship? I think it's better to make an exception in this case and just remove the post. Besides, if you don't (and don't take this the wrong way), I could easily see this situation coming back to haunt you. |
| Kathryn Hall |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4883.html Posted At 17:59:09 06/26/2001 My full name. :P |
| Patrick Thevenard |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4884.html Posted At 18:00:38 06/26/2001 Difficult scenario. I'd suggest deleting the post and replacing it with a statement that it was withdrawn at the request of the originating individual under duress caused by a threatened punitve law suit. (1) The originating individual's reasonable concern would be addressed. It's easy enough to recommend fighting a lawsuit in the interest of free speech but I'm not the one named. (2) The webmaster's interests in the borad's integrity might be met as this would clearly be an extraordinary situation and the action taken explained and justified. (3) As the explanation would list the name of the product the interests of the herp community at large would also be served. If you don't care for the way a product manufacturer or distributor does business --- don't buy the product, irrespective of its efficacy. I'm still boycotting yellow fin tuna! |
| Kathryn Hall |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4885.html Posted At 18:11:35 06/26/2001 Ah.. more.. I'm feeling spammy today I guess.... Basically Rich, you've been put in the position to decide whether or not she goes to court and has to spend alot of time, effort, and money fighting a legal battle that she can't fight. She's stated she doesn't want to do this. She's stated she really can't fight this battle even if she wanted to. Would you really feel right forcing her to go to court? To Tim Bowles and others: Maybe some of you out there would love to fight for your right to post whatever you want, but apparently she doesn't want that battle and can't fight that battle. How can any of you stand to force it on her? Seriously, what gives any of you the idea that anyone has the right to force someone else to go to court to fight a legal battle for free speech if they don't want to? Fight your own battles. If you want to take on the legal system, why don't you make a post like hers and YOU defend it in court? She doesn't want to be a martyr, so don't make her one just because you feel like spouting off about free speech. I do not oppose free speech, but I do oppose forcing someone to do something they don't want to do. |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4888.html Posted At 18:40:08 06/26/2001 First let me say I have NEVER spoke with either of the parties involved. Second I am NOT a lawyer by any means. With that said, does every lawyer or person threatening a lawsuit win? Just because one says they will sue means nothing. IF the other party sued her and LOST, could he afford the legal fees? I don't know. I think it is unfortunate for both parties, BUT if she can prove that her leos died due to this I would not remove the post. If she was talking out of anger and assumption, I would remove it. People sue over EVERYTHING these days, but not all win. The bottom line is who has a case here? Is he threatening lawsuit because he was wrong and wants to keep it from being public OR does he really have a case. Tough call Rich, but again, VERY unfortunate. Brian Oakley |
| Devon Smith |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4889.html Posted At 18:43:18 06/26/2001 I doubt she would/could be sued. This is just harrassment. I believe they would have to file in her state (jurisdiction) and have a true case of defamation. This was just a comment about her circumstance and she simply asked others if they had the same situation. Her concern was valid and it was good to share. If her post is deleted a note that the attorneys from Grooms Cricket Ranch have requested this be deleted and threatened leagal action, should be put in its place. This in its self will speak volumes. |
| hardcore reptiles craig goldie |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4890.html Posted At 18:49:39 06/26/2001 well i going to take the unpopular stance,i say remove it. the reason i say so is the person who posted not the person the posting was about.it may be promted by a lawer and a company but the requst was made by THE POSTER.if some one was to smear the name of another only later to realize they were wrong {regardless of the reason} and wish a post be removed why not ,they asked?also it must be a mojor personal delima for you to decide,i dont think any adults would be offended by you saving a persons ass,lets face it if she were a guy you would have her youknowwhats in your hand,there is nothing to gain by chrushing them.as for the post most if not all the people on this forum have allready read it,their minds are made up if it says or goes.mabey put a comment like negitive post removed at posters request,and her email for those realy wanting info.a law suit can be a very hard road will anyone win? |
| Kathryn Hall |
A possibility
4891.html Posted At 18:55:28 06/26/2001 Rich, if you feel you need an excuse to remove the post, and one that follows your rules, send her an email requesting verification. As per your rules if she doesn't respond within the given amount of time, the post should be deleted. :) If she's smart, she just won't respond. :) This kinda lets everyone off the hook on the matter. |
| Tim Bowles |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4892.html Posted At 18:57:47 06/26/2001 Just to let you know Kathryn, I posted on this topic before I read her post asking to have it deleted. If you look closely to this post you can clearly see that no names are mentioned. I did not "stand to force her" to fight but rather directed my words to the opposite side of the dilema. If she chooses to have this post deleted than great for her. My point was not to let the lawyers destroy even an ounce of free speech. Again, not to force her to leave it on. The problem with posting on this type of forum is personal interpretaions vary greatly. My sarcasm directed at the legal system was not interpreted by you as I meant it. I will honor her choice no matter what it is, because that it is her right. A simple dilema for you then, should anyone who asks have a post removed because you chose to break the rules for one? If Im not mistaken the rules are very clear and simple to read. If you cant follow them or be willing to obide by them then dont post on this type of forum. Or in more severe situations, you must be able to suffer the consequences of your actions. Also, Im not the one deciding to keep the post. I am not the webmaster of this forum. I am simply offering my points of view and exercising my right of free speech as are you. So in closing, post your comments carefully. NOONE forced her to post her original message. But again the rules are crystal clear on this matter. |
| John A |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4893.html Posted At 19:20:18 06/26/2001 Freedom of speech or censorship?? I think the choice is clear Nobody is forcing anyone to post or not to post RZ this is your forum and most people respect you and your decisions.You did not force anyone to post about grooms or anybody,so you are not forcing anyone to go to court We are all responsible for our own actions as i am sure you have stated before.If all of her data is correct then she will have no problem How is RZ forcing anyone to go to court when she posted her problem do we all not know the possible repercussions or shall i say scare tactics when we exercise our freedom of speech Isn't that what all of us that was in the military fought for Freedom or censorship Duh leave the post Apple |
| Jeff Macolmb |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4894.html Posted At 20:03:39 06/26/2001 I think you are all missing a rather simple solution. This problem would go away if Groom's could be persuaded to withdraw their threat of a lawsuit. I've read what was posted, and the facts were not purswasive about Groom's having a problem. If I had been a customer of Groom's or considering such, that post would not have affected my decision. But a company that sicks lawyers on other people have earned my disgust and it is that fact that would chase away my business. So a simple plan, folks. Contact Groom's and let them know what you think of this situation. If you have an account with them, tell them you are considering dropping it because of their actions. Even if you don't have an account there, contact them and express your disgust at their actions. Maybe even spread the word to rec.pets.herp and anywhere else where you can post messages. Do you know anyone else that uses their services? Contact them. Explain the situation to them and let them decide where they stand. Groom's is taking steps to harrass your rights away. You do realize that this issue jeopardises the existence of this very board now don't you? Solidarity anyone? The email address to them is '[email protected]' and their web address is http://www.groomscricketfarm.com. And no, I'm not using the 'boycot' word. |
| Ciro Spina |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4895.html Posted At 20:31:21 06/26/2001 You should delete it. Just as people have the right to speak, they also have the right not to speak. In other words, if the original poster has the right to post, he/she should have the right to unpost if they feel they can't handle the consequences. Mrs. McGuinness, if you truely believe what you wrote and didn't say it with actual malice or negligence, then you have nothing to worry about and should keep it up. If they continue to threaten you, sue them for the death of your geckos. Their product killed your animals, product liability maybe? Play hardball with them ma'am. Aren't you the lady that tried to change Petco or Petsmart? Why stop there? Ciro Spina |
| Mark Kennedy |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4897.html Posted At 21:03:10 06/26/2001 Make an exception to the rule, delete the post because of her health issue here, and know you are a good person for doing it! |
| Bryan Rupert |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4899.html Posted At 21:14:42 06/26/2001 I think the original post should be deleted at the request of the poster. But I also believe that there should be a post put in it's place explaining that the lawyers for this company have threatened the poster with legal action otherwise. It is easy to stand on a soap box and proclaim "free speech, no censorship" when you aren't the one who is going to have to hire a lawyer to go to court. I also firmly believe the the US judicial system needs a dramatic overhaul to prevent this type of harassement. My original opinion of this company didn't go one way or the other, because of comments on both sides. But this recent action causes me to have a highly negative opinion of this company. I think that if they truly have nothing to hide, they would just stand by their original defense, and forget the legal threats. People that think Sc*m S*ucking lawyers need to be dragged into everything are beneath contempt. I have not had the need to deal with this company in the past, and based on this latest move (not the original post), I would never consider doing business with them. I hope the owners would realize what kind of negative impact this move is going to have on their public relations. |
| John A |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4901.html Posted At 21:32:55 06/26/2001 Standing on a soap box is one thing i don't do i am no stranger to lawyers having maintained one for years been divorced twice and having custody of all my kids I think the post should stay Rz if you delete the post what kind of forum is this does anyone know what this could start if it is deleted Apple |
| Dave,East TN Reptiles |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4902.html Posted At 21:46:58 06/26/2001 The more you stir S*#t the worse it stinks.........I'd remove it and be done with it............."if" it was me. Just my opinion. Dave |
| Clint Boyer |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4903.html Posted At 22:15:36 06/26/2001 It seems to me that a retraction would serve the purpose. There would be no need to delete anything, the poster would make a statement withdrawing any defamitory statements. Isn't that the way apologies are made in print? Once the statement is made I'd love to see a response from the offended. Clint Boyer |
| Trish Martin |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4904.html Posted At 23:20:37 06/26/2001 I think that the post should be deleted at the request on the poster. The only reason I say this is because of the legal ramifications that this may cause for her. If she is unable to afford legal counsel, then she is being fed to the dogs. Even if it goes to court, you still have to try to convince a judge that you are right. I once went to court over a reptile related incident where I felt ripped off. The judge did not seem at all interested in dealing with a case involving reptiles and consequently I lost. She has already admitted that she cannot afford this venture. I cannot see anything wrong with her post if this was the vets finding. I would however have reservations about dealing with Groom's after the vets findings and this recent events. |
| Jody Kitzmiller |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4905.html Posted At 23:26:01 06/26/2001 So a buyer can come here and post a really convincing story about how a seller caused their animals to die and just delete the post when they can't back up their statement? Or is it that a seller can use the legal system to dictate which posts remain and which posts get deleted? Either way the post should remain! Please don't compromise the integrity of this board. The rules are clear. Making an exception will tell sellers listed here to threaten legal action against anyone making a bad guy post and the posts will be deleted. |
| Ian Dungan |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4906.html Posted At 23:39:59 06/26/2001 Its my opinion that the post should be left up.she is completely within her Constitutional right, and no one should try to intimidate or bully her out of those rights. We, her fellow herpers should NOT aid these lawyers in their quest by deleting this message. We should stand up beside her and keep this message up for the world to see. |
| Marcia McGuiness - The Lizard Lady |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4907.html Posted At 00:54:42 06/27/2001 I am amazed at the number of responses to this post, and sincerely appreciate each and every opinion. All of you know that I am the person who originally posted about my tragedy and solicited information in an attempt to help me determine if the crickets I was using were indeed the cause of the poisoning of my Leopard Geckos. Do not think for one minute that I do not have documented, factual evidence that supports my decision to post that inquiry, and do not be mistaken that I regret making that post! I am NOT apologizing, nor am I retracting any of the statements or chronological facts. I simply requested that this post be deleted at the demand of Mr. Groom with the implication that he would pursue litigation if I did not. I do not expect to be an exception to the rules of this forum, and can truly understand the dilemma that RZ is facing. I will respect and support whatever decision he makes. What I DO regret is that I was unable to utilize this forum for what I believe is it's purpose... to provide a medium in which herpers can inquire, investigate and comment on their dealings and prospective dealings with breeders and suppliers. I also regret that Groom's Cricket Ranch feels that my desperate need to find a concrete explanation for the devastation and suffering caused by the poisoning of my Leos should warrant such a drastic measure as hiring an attorney to threaten litigation against me. In my personal opinion, a legal battle of this nature would do more harm to Mr. Groom's business than my post could have ever created, and by retaining an attorney to threaten litigation sends a much clearer message to the consumers about his character and integrity than I could have by any other means. |
| David L. Hinojosa |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4908.html Posted At 02:46:59 06/27/2001 Hello everyone. I am just wondering if the reason for Mrs. McGuiness not wanting to have the post remain is for fear of litigation against her and not being able to pay for her defense, then would someone who reads through these post everyday and knows so many people that are connected and know so much about the law, please offer Marcia some "free" legal defense. Or, contact a friend of yours who is an attorney and inform him or her of the situation and how they would be a great support for all of us to represent Mrs. McGuiness free of charge. I don't have any legal education that grants me the status of an attorney, but I would like to say that I'm sure someone out there who does, may feel the way I do and want to lend their services. ???? I don't know , maybe I'm a total idio t and should have refrained from posting. I just thought that maybe I would offer a different idea instead of debating the issue of "free speech" or "censorship". There's got to be some lawyers cruising through here daily. I mean, the UPS shipping debate drew some heavy statements about laws and penalties and fines and talk about FEDERAL cases when it came to shipping via USPS. What's up people ??? Give the lady some "REAL" support. Thanks to all who may respond positively to this post. Sincerely, David L. Hinojosa P.S. Rich, I suppose after saying all of what I said, that my response to your post would be......Leave it. What's the gaurantee that they will not sue anyway once this post is removed? I mean any real lawyer is gonna say that the damage is already done and that removing it is not going to remove the bad taste that was left in the mouths of potential customers. |
| JERRY TRESSER |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4909.html Posted At 06:03:17 06/27/2001 Leave the post, this kind of publicity has a two edged sword. I think intimidation from Grooms whould do more harm for their own business if they persued it. Secondly, if it went so far as a suit (which I doubt), who says they would win. If the poster has the necessary scientific proof to stand behind their claim,they can also sue Grooms ! In either case, advising the public was the right thing to do. Theirs no libel or slander here, and any attempt on the part of Grooms attorney to try such a case would backfire through the entire Reptile community. Personally, I think Grooms should be glad that they received enough positive comments on their crickets to just consider this an isolated situation and move on with their business. |
| Jay A. Martin |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4910.html Posted At 06:25:46 06/27/2001 As long as the post is factual and not defamatory, I would leave it. Fact is, 99.9% of all lawyers try using scare tactics - a letter threatening suit is their weapon of choice. One bit of legalese I use is to state that "This is my opinion..." and state the facts as I see them. This has considerable relief from legal liability. If you remove it, it could set a precedence and become an avenue for (BAD GUYS) to have any unwanted posts about them removed. Leave it! Jay A. Martin |
| Brian Conley |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4911.html Posted At 07:09:55 06/27/2001 I agree w/ Jay. Removing the post would only open up an avenue for "bad guys." Leave the post, if it goes to court I'll chip in the first $10 for legal fees. Brian Conley. |
| Dennis Gulla |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4913.html Posted At 08:16:27 06/27/2001 I think the post should remain up! Mrs. Mcguiness did what any true animal lover and breeder would do when they see all of their animals start dying for no apparent reason. She is simply stating the facts and results of what doctor's had discovered through detailed tests and exams. Had she made a post with nothing to back up here suspicions, then that would be a different story. I don't think she or anyone else should fear the threat of a lawsuit when they did nothing wrong. She has an incredible amount of evidence to support her original post. In my opinion, this is merely a scare tacting by Groom's. If this case should go to court, there is a substantial amount of evidence to support Mrs. Mcguiness. Groom's has a lot more to lose in this case. Given the amount of leg work and research Mrs. Mcguiness has already done in this case, if I were Groom's attorney, I would be reluctant to take this all the way to court. LEAVE THE POST! |
| Raven Johnson |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4915.html Posted At 08:56:15 06/27/2001 Obviously the choice is yours Rick. I can understand Ms. McGuiness' position as I do not have the financial ability to fight a legal battle myslef should one be presented. That said, I would also hate to see such a valuable resource as this board crippled by legal intimidation. Ultimately, you must do as you see fit. Should you decide to delete the posting, I would like to see a replacement notice stating why it was removed (ie - legal ramifications to Ms. McGuiness from Groom's). FWIW, I don't raise or breed anything that feeds on insects at this time. If I should in the future, you can rest assured that I will not purchase a single insect from Groom's and will verify that any supplier I may purchase from does not. The reasons? I was not convinced one way or another by Ms. McGuiness' post that Groom's was indeed the culprit in the leos deaths - she was inquiring if it could be a coincidence or possible cause. What did convince me to never do business with them, and to not recommend them to those I know who keep insectivores, is their reaction to a rather simple post. Any business who reacts with a lawsuit is not a business I care to support, financially or otherwise. Raven Johnson |
| Art Smithson |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4916.html Posted At 08:59:40 06/27/2001 I think the best recourse would be for Ms. McGuiness to make sure she has all of her ducks in a row. Estimate the amount of income that group of lizards could have produced over their breeding lifespan (20+ years), taking into consideration probably keeping several babies for future breeding stock, and generate a figure of lost income because of their death. Take these figures to an attorney for an initial consultation and see if there is a preponderance of evidence that would give a jury reasonable cause to determine Groom's is responsible for her financial loss. Fight fire with fire. And I like Brian Conley's suggestion. If the GOOD GUYS and interested parties in this business would stand shoulder to shoulder, this sort of intimidation tactic will not even get a toe hold here. And consider this: This is a free message board that is benefiting a lot of people. Maybe the cost of sticking together and fighting crap like this with financial aid could be considered our dues. Oh, and in case Chris Groom is reading this thread, which I assume he is, even if you were giving away crickets, you would not get my business after pulling this stunt. I hope you are planning on attending a few herp shows in my area because I will make a point of standing in front of your table, telling everyone with an ear about what you have done to intimidate someone whom had the guts to express concerns about your product in a public forum. Heck, maybe I'll even donate my time and money to have fliers printed up. You better be thinking REAL HARD about damage control right now. Or are you planning to sue the entire world? |
| Damon Geiger |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4917.html Posted At 09:28:27 06/27/2001 I agree with what David Hinojosa was saying. Who is to say that the lawyers would not just say that the damage was done and sue anyway. Isn't removing the post admitting to the assumed wrong? I do empathise with Marcia McGuiness and her situation. I will say that if Mr Groom does sue HE will be doing far greater damage to himself and his business. If he was smart He would post a rebutle and his postion. He has already got negative attention and more damage is being done by his silence and by his actions against Marcia McGuiness. RZ if you do remove this post you might be opening a great big hole for bloodsuckers to enter through. I think you already know this. I am personally willing to stand by Marcia even though I don't know her. If Mr Groom persist I am willing to help out Marcia and do what I can. If we all stand or even some of us stand with Marcia this may make the difference. I will also say that if Mr Groom does decide to change his postion and and not pursue legal action and talk about his situation that would look good for him and his business. Just my thoughts. Damon |
| Glenn Haugh |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4918.html Posted At 09:30:01 06/27/2001 I am one of the priviledged people to know Marcia McGuiness personally and professionally, and I am compelled to make a statement on her behalf. Ms. McGuiness is one of the most compassionate and dedicated individuals I have ever known, not only to her fellow herpers but to her Leos as well. She has helped literally thousands of people on the Leopard Gecko Forum with her vast knowledge of herp husbandry, and is committed to improving the conditions in chain pet stores across the country for reptiles. She has integrity and would not make false accusations about anyone. This situation that has caused her gecko's deaths has absolutely devastated her, and I can't think of any other individual that would have gone to the lengths she has to discover what was killing them. She has literally been hand feeding sick geckos every single day since last November and disinfecting everything they come in contact with every 24 hours in case they were infected with an undiagnosed disease. She is in poor health, and the stress and trauma she has experienced caused her to become seriously ill. I don't know about the rest of you, but I will personally support her through this, including contributing financially in the event she requires legal representation. Ms. McGuiness deserves it, and Groom's deserves the exposure. I say leave the post. |
| Amy w. |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4919.html Posted At 09:59:10 06/27/2001 I say leave it up. if someone resives bad crikets and her loes die of it them she has everyright to say something about it, its called freedom of speech. |
| Dennis Gulla |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4921.html Posted At 10:22:23 06/27/2001 I have already posted my opinions on this thread, but I would like to offer a little financial support to Mrs. Mcguiness as well should she decide to defend herself. |
| Kristin Kraczek |
Leave it up
4922.html Posted At 10:25:14 06/27/2001 What's done is done... the company cannot deny her the right to her opinion! They would lose in more ways than one if they pursue this. I say leave the post! |
| Jenny Polega |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4923.html Posted At 10:35:06 06/27/2001 I say leave the post...it could help other herpers in a discision they need to make. I don't think that this cricket farmer has a legal case, I think he's blowing smoke in order to scare Marcia off of her initial intent ... informing people of a problem. Just my opinion. |
| Tracy Willis |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4925.html Posted At 11:08:14 06/27/2001 Well, this has caused a lot of reaction!!!! As a friend of Marcia's, I am behind her 110% on this case. What Mr. Groom has to realize is that she is NOT the type of person to publicly post such information without SOUND proof. She is not lying, her poor leos died from toxic/poisoned crickets!!! She spent endless hours trying to save their lives, then spent pretty much thousands of dollars to find out what is wrong!! Now tell ME, does that sound like a troublemaker? Um.. NO, it represents a dedicated keeper and lover of her animals, who wanted answers and would do anything to get those answers. Rich, as others have said, if you do delete the string, this goes against what this forum is all about, people sharing information on who is GOOD and BAD to deal with! I understand your position, but I think deep down you feel like many of us do. All I know is that I am thankful for this Board of Inquiry... Tracy Willis (aka Trace from gexfiles) |
| Sal Thomas |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4926.html Posted At 11:30:52 06/27/2001 Mr Webmaster, I implore you to let the post stand as written...this is exactly what your site is for....you've seen posturing by wrongdoers before, don't let the fact that is was done by an attorney affect your judgement. Sal Thomas |
| Andrew Wilson |
My Opinion
4927.html Posted At 11:32:35 06/27/2001 If it was me I would tell Groom's to stick it. But if it is going to harm Marcia because of the worries maybe her post should be removed. I hate the idea of Marcia worrying herself sick of this, even though they honestly don't have a leg to stand on. Her post was basically a question with a lot of facts to back it up, far from defamation. MORE IMPORTANTLY I sent an e-mail to Grooms telling them my displeasure at their actions. I also informed them I would never order from them. I hope many of you will do the same thing, there are so many others to choose from that won't sue you if you complain. If enough people write to Grooms and complain and demand a public apology to Marcia maybe they will grow up and see that they made a stupid mistake. I even e-mailed this situation to several friends, and I can guarantee you they will let Grooms know what they think to. Regards Andrew Wilson |
| Sharon Ainsley |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4928.html Posted At 11:32:49 06/27/2001 As a reptile and amphibian owner and LOVER for many years now, I feel that this situation is absolutely RIDICULOUS! Those of us, like Marcia, who devote our lives and time and energy and money to the care and maintainance of these animals depend on the food suppliers for the wellbeing of our animals. We expect and DESERVE that the insects and rodents we recieve that claim to be safe actually are safe. If an entrire batch of animals DIES and the cause looks to be the fault of the feeder stock - shouldn't we have the ability to speak out about that? I would be DEVASTATED if this would have happened to me...and you can be sure I would be out talking to others regarding the problem. If there is a lawsuit to be had, it would seem to me that Marcia would be the one filing it against the company. Until she has done that - this company has little recourse on 'defamation' charges because of a few message board posts. This is America last time I checked and such charges would be literally LAUGHED OUT of a courtroom. Besides that, she was ASKING for other people's experiences...NOT running around throwing accusations at this company... What this shows me, as an experienced herp keeper, is that this company obviousy feels as if it has something to hide and is using strongarm tactics to try to quiet Marcia down. I might be inclined to wonder what it is they are so afraid of. After all, if the crickets were safe - they should be able to stand up and show adequate defense of any allegations she made anyway. The question mark is still blinking on this one. As far as the post itself - I would suggest that the webmaster here do as Marcia requests, regardless of what that is. If she is feeling bllied by this and wants to try to ease matters quietly (which is far more kind than how I might handle this) then her wishes should be respected. I just have to scratch my head and wonder as to how legitimate, legal business owners could behave so ridiculously in regards to this. Good luck Marcia. I am sure you have nothing to worry about. If they want to 'play' these bully games with you, you might want to consider filing countersuit. After al, they caused YOUR loss. Not the other way around. ~Sharon (Kingsnake forum poster and herp lover) |
| Mark Kennedy |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4929.html Posted At 11:44:42 06/27/2001 Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Marcia asked that the post be deleted for health reasons. Where is your compassion people? Sorry but I have to put a persons well being far above a cricket! And shame on Grooms for being a bunch of bullies, they will never get my business. |
| Keyt Harrington |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4930.html Posted At 11:44:50 06/27/2001 Well, I came into this a little too late. I'm not really sure exactly what has happened, but I would like to make a suggestion. First of all, I want to say that I am truly sorry for your losses Mrs. McGuiness! There is nothing worse than losing a pet/s when their deaths could have been prevented! My suggestion is this; since it seems opinions can no longer be expressed here without immature threats, there is another avenue for such expressions that I have used before with great success. It's called the Better Business Bureau. They are there to hear concerns about any business, and in fact, they have also been useful when I have wondered about another business and I have called to see if anyone made bad reports. Once again, this is only a suggestion. It's obvious that Groom's is more concerned about their possible loss of sales than they are about the animals their supplies feed. If that weren't the case, they gladly would have offered to help Mrs. McGuiness get to the bottom of this problem. Anyone who threatens a lawsuit is too weak to stand up for themselves to solve an issue before hand. It sickens me to think that a business can belittle one's opinions and concerns in order to try to save their own face. I don't think the original post should have been deleted simply because this is a 'Good Guy, Bad Guy' forum! I sure hope this isn't a sign of a new fad to come....suing people for free speech!! |
| Sharon Ainsley |
(and a side note)
4931.html Posted At 11:59:25 06/27/2001 The post can be left deleted now, as most of the information it originally contained is RIGHT HERE - spread throughout this message thread. Is all of the discussion HERE amongst all of us going to incite this company to sue us all? Am I liable for defamation because I entered into a discussion regarding this topic? Is the site liable for allowing us all to voice our views? C'mon...this is so childish - and I would hope that the company in question realizes that they had a chance to prove the allegations wrong and to maintain good business relations. What they are doing is cutting their own throats here - by showing us all that they are hiding something and NOT interested in investigating the matter. Good business practive at this point would be to discuss matters with Marcia and determine if there was indeed any problem. If I were a cricket farm, I would investigate any and all claims into my stock so that I could be 100% sure I was providing safe feeder animals to the public consumers. |
| Seth Stevens |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4932.html Posted At 12:00:18 06/27/2001 I have personally dealt with the person who posted her problem with the crickets. She is an extremely knowledgeable person when it comes to herps, and not one to talk trash without something to back her up. The whole situation sounds to me like the cricket company knows they screwed up and are afraid because it is now public knowledge. I really don't think the original post was meant to drive the cricket company out of business but to make the problem known so they can fix the problem so no other animals will have to suffer. What I know is she takes great care of her animals and goes much farther than most anyone else I know to help others (individuals as well as big companies). Leave her post up! The cricket company needs to spend more time ensuring quality of product and less time trying to file lawsuits against people that state facts about them. |
| Web Slave |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4933.html Posted At 12:32:54 06/27/2001 Just for the record, neither the original thread nor the initial message have been deleted. http://herpwantads.com/forums/Inquiry/posts/4599.html Just didn't want anyone to mistakenly think that they were missing something that got deleted from THIS thread. |
| Frances Gilbert |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4938.html Posted At 14:15:42 06/27/2001 She had the right, under federal laws and board rules to post her experience. Because of this threat, I think it should only be removed under request of the original poster. I think she has done a great thing by warning the rest of us about this company. I personally will stick up for her, because she did the right thing. |
| Arlen Evins / Walkabout Reptiles |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4941.html Posted At 15:00:21 06/27/2001 My heart goes out to Marcia over this unfortunate issue and would certainly do every thing in my power to assist both her and the web master of this valuable forum against the posturing and threatening of some Attorney who is most likely on retainer for many Companies. If a legal assistance fund is set up I would not only contribute but would be active in her/their defense as well. I have very strong feelings about this matter as I think I was the first to suggest to Marcia that the most likely source of her Leos dying was a contaminated food supply. I suggested this after several conversations with her and also included an experiment to help prove or disprove the theory. I will not go into details as I feel that is not my place to do so at this time. The results of this experiment only reinforced my suspicions that the cause of death of her Leos was in fact food borne and not a husbandry issue as is the case in most other instances. Unfortunately, due to her illness with Fibromialgia and my recent back surgery we have not exchanged as much information lately but I can say with confidence that her husbandry and precautionary measures to keep this from spreading are impeccable! Every possible precaution was taken just in case it was a disease that could be transmitted through cross contact with other animals. When I visited her and her husband and viewed her animals I was VERY impressed at all of the various safegaurds she had taken as a precautionary measure! I fully respect and will stand firmly behind any decision that Marcia makes regarding the removal of her post but I feel it is important that she know that she has the support of the Leopard gecko community behind her. I also feel that it is important to note that since she has changed to another cricket supplier several of her remaining leos have shown definite signs of recovery and are eating and gaining weight again! Best regards, Arlen Evins Walkabout Reptiles |
| Zoe Stevens |
Leave it up!
4943.html Posted At 15:41:45 06/27/2001 Leave it up! I am completely behind Marcia, even though she shouldn't risk being legally pursued... she isn't doing anything illegal. She isn't lying, or saying that the company should be avoided at all costs... she is warning us not to risk harming our geckos. The company has just put itself into a nasty cycle... because even though a lot of us know about it, some don't, and if the post is removed, those people could buy crickets, and if this company begins threatening to sue everyone who asks the public not to run the risk of hurting their geckos... well you can see where this is going. And... because of this childish "I screwed up so I'll take it out on the person who pointed it out" I will NEVER order from Grooms and I have e-mailed them telling them so. However, if Marcia is really risking being sued... the post should be removed and an explanation put in it's place. |
| troyr |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4945.html Posted At 16:29:30 06/27/2001 i am behind marcia 100%.if anyone is suing shouldnt it be her but i didnt hear anything about her stooping to that level.maybe she should threaten them with a lawsuit instead of letting them bully her.as for grooms it seems that they are just worsening their bad publicity.look at all the attention they're getting.i dont know much about law but i do know to never trust a lawyer unless hes on my side.does grooms even have a leg to stand on or are they just using scare tactics?does anyone have legal advice for her?if she needs help financially to stand up to a bullying lawsuit i would donate.anyway, we need to protect our freedom of speech.F*#* censorship.(i hope that doesnt count as profanity)Keep the post. |
| Steve Barry |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4947.html Posted At 17:03:48 06/27/2001 Rich, I've posted a few inquiries over the last four months and have been satisfied with the replies I've received and the people I've done business with. I've even managed to make a few long distance friends in the process. The idealistic side in me says keep the post. The compassionate side says delete,Marcia is to tired to fight. But there is this little fire inside of me that rages out of control whenever I read about tort lawsuits and bully businesses. Now I don't know Marcia but she seems to have quite a few friends,and she has my respect for the amount of time, and expense that she's gone through in the care of her lizzards. Now I'm not well off by any means but should this go to court and if you or someone else decides to set up a fund, there's a 50 with my name on it. If nothing else I'm a man of my word and you can always post Liar and Bad Guy up on your forum. God I hate lawyers and bugs. Rich I'm sure you'll do the right thing. Marcia Good Luck. : Steve Barry |
| Dennis Willestofte |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4952.html Posted At 18:54:39 06/27/2001 I read the original post, when i read they say one thing in the phone and another in their post, AND the way they actually says you lie, then they did something illegal to, they arenot allowed to say that you lie the way they said it (this is how i read what they are saying, keep in mind im Danish so this is not my main language), allso from reading your post you dont say that it is THEIR fault, who knows where the error is, might be at your place, only that it takes a long time to build up a toxxid like this in the cricket body that it allmost have to be newlyborn or have it from its parrents (asked a vet about this, that says it have been a big problem). If a lawsuit shows up, im pretty sure that you will win, so keep me in mind, ill drop in some $ i can live without even though it wont help you get through it without getting extra stress that might go into your disease :-( |
| Pete |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4956.html Posted At 19:32:27 06/27/2001 I never seen the original post. Fact of the matter is if the person had medical testing done by his veterninarian and proved that it had something to do with the breeder of the insects. than I thank him for posting and warning me! I have enough money and the means to defend myself against a bug breeder i would have taken everything he had if I lost my breeders! Thanks! Leave it! |
| Pete Peperakis |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4957.html Posted At 19:33:16 06/27/2001 I never seen the original post. Fact of the matter is if the person had medical testing done by his veterninarian and proved that it had something to do with the breeder of the insects. than I thank him for posting and warning me! I have enough money and the means to defend myself against a bug breeder i would have taken everything he had if I lost my breeders! Thanks! Leave it! damn thing LOL |
| Amy MacPherson |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4958.html Posted At 19:47:26 06/27/2001 I would suggest that removing the post at this point is akin to shutting the barn door after the horse has already crossed the county line...however, in the interests of helping Marcia out while still maintaining the flow of information, replacing the original post with an explanatory note would be an appropriate compromise. I also agree with many of the previous posts here, which point out that the dealer's own response to Marcia's inquiry may cause him greater business losses than any number of internet postings ever could. With all of his many satisfied customers, surely it would have been a simple matter to limit his response to a reasoned rebuttal here, backed by the results of lab tests on his crickets and feed. To have shown concern over Marcia's losses, regardless of the cause, would have greatly enhanced his image by showing him to be a caring and upstanding person, rather than a foolish and short-sighted litiginous businessman. I hope that this matter can be sensibly resolved, and that the source of Marcia's tragic losses can be determined. This is an issue that could potentially affect any of us, and I for one would like to know what happened so that I can protect the health of my animals! Regards, Amy |
| Roger Jolly |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4965.html Posted At 22:57:16 06/27/2001 Several people have stated that they emailed Groom's Crickets. I have as well. Has anyone gotten some sort of a reply? Are we all beneath speaking to now, or what? Groom's has brought their lawyer daddy to the playground and is now hiding behind his legs. By the way, where do they advertise? The only place I have seen them is in kingsnake.com. Doesn't kingsnake have a three complaint rule? Are there three complainers out there? :-) I guess I just don't like being ignored. Sorry. |
| Tom Chambers |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4967.html Posted At 23:11:59 06/27/2001 I e-mailed them too....no response as of yet. Leave the post up......I too, will donate to support defense of Marcia legally. THanks for the board, Rich...stuff like this is what's really important for people to know. TC |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4977.html Posted At 10:02:01 06/28/2001 Think about it folks. If you threaten a lawsuit and you do have a lawyer, what lawyer is going to advise their client to respond to this? NONE! I am sure he has been advised NOT to speak to anyone about this. I would be SHOCKED if anyone got so much as a "hello" in regards to this matter. Brian |
| Darin Chappell |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4981.html Posted At 13:29:35 06/28/2001 I can sympathize with those who are offended at this lawyer's attempt to censor the opinions of the original poster. However, I would like to calm those who are continually appealing to constitutional rights. The Constitution merely grants us the right to speak out without fear of being attacked by the GOVERNMENT. There is no right to speak without fear of private retribution. This lawyer is representing a client in a civil case and can absolutely bring suit against the original poster. It is true that the poster may be vindicated by a jury of her peers, but at what cost to her financially, physically, or mentally? Since she has requested her message to be deleted, and we are all sympathetic to her plight, I would suggest that we leave the Constitution out of this and allow Rich to honor her request out of purely humanitarian considerations. Just two cents worth from a Political Scientist's point of view. |
| Web Slave |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4982.html Posted At 15:13:19 06/28/2001 OK, I know I can't put off making this decision forever. I think any of you that know me personally already know how I must decide in this issue. But a few moments go I emailed Mr. Groom to try to initiate contact to see if we can resolve this problem without any collateral damage. I would prefer to see where this may lead before posting my decision, just in case my thought processes take an unexpected turn. But regardless, by 5:00 pm EDT tomorrow (Friday), I will be posting my decision. As Brian Oakley pointed out, I may not get a response from Mr. Groom, but I certainly can hope I will. It may not resolve anything at all, but I would like to think an effort in this direction is worthwhile attempting. How in the world did I get myself into this position, anyway? Anybody want to buy a website? |
| chad bisbing |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4988.html Posted At 18:22:59 06/28/2001 Heh, nobody does it better than you, boss. |
| Paul Wager |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
4998.html Posted At 00:32:22 06/29/2001 Deleate the post for Ms. McGuiness sake.State the reason why ie: Legal action........ Screw Grooms they will NEVER get my business |
| Web Slave |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
5012.html Posted At 12:41:26 06/29/2001 I have been having conversations with Chris Grooms over the past day and hopefully this is being worked out. I have tried to contact Marcia so we all three could join together to put this behind us, but apparently she is out of town or otherwise unavailable. But in any event my original decision was not affected by my conversations with Chris Grooms. And I believe any conversations with Marcia McGuiness would have had the same result. The message will remain on the board. But the thread of a lawsuit has been removed, but even had it not been, it would not have affected my decision. My decision to keep the message would only have shifted the focus of a lawsuit onto my own shoulders. Marcia had no way to delete the message and once I denied her request, she would have lost any responsibility for the disposition of it. It is a posted rule of this message board that posts will NOT be removed unless they violate one or more of the stated rules. If I had felt compelled to delete Marcia's message, I would have done so, but the way I would have done it would have been by deleting the entire messge board from my server. After deleting a message upon threat of a lawsuit, it would have set a precedent that would have fatally damaged the integrity of this board and it's continuation would have only been a farce. I think some of you realized that, and others just didn't look further than the surface of this issue. After talking with Chris at length, I feel very strongly that we all made mistakes, and Chris admitted as much to me about his part in the situation. Perhaps Marcia would have been better off just posting a general message asking if anyone with ANY unexplained illnesses or deaths in their lizard colonies could provide time frames and cricket suppliers to her, rather than identifying a company that, at that point, was only a suspicion based on circumstantial evidence. This was supposed to be a query to accumulate factual information, and the naming of names was certainly premature and unnecessary for that purpose at that time. Chris Grooms simply over-reacted to seeing his company's name being strongly implicated as the cause of Marcia McGuiness' leopard geckos, and quite probably each and every one of us would have acted the same way. He made attempts at contacting Marcia via the phone, but time an time again was unsuccessful. Personally, I would have been at a boiling point myself by this time. And then he made a mistake out of anger and frustration. He called in an attorney. Quite possibly this attorney came across with strong arm tactics that were far and above from what was needed, called for, or even asked for, in the situation. Myself, I feel I made a mistake starting this thread in the first place. I shouldn't have dragged you all into a decision that was mine and mine alone to make. It called too much attention to the lawsuit issue and quite likely focused way too much anger towards Grooms Cricket Farm. I sincerely regret the direction this has turned. But I must admit that being human myself, and having been threatened with several lawsuits myself since starting the Board of Inquiry. So when I got Marcia's email telling me of her threatened lawsuit, I just saw red and didn't stop to think about where this could all lead to. I could have handled this better than I did. So it is my sincere hope that this can all end here and now. There is no need nor reason for us all to keep building on the mistakes we made and keep the fires burning. I also hope that you all can see why this went the way it did, recognize that we are all human, and forgive all of us involved for those mistakes. //humility mode OFF// Let's get on with our lives now. This has completely drained me. |
| Chris Grooms - Grooms Cricket Farm |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
5016.html Posted At 12:47:23 06/29/2001 I am Chris Grooms with Grooms Cricket Farm and this letter is in response to the many posts about our business and the unfortunate situation regarding Ms. Marcia McGuiness. I believe it may help the situation if I do a recap of my perceptions of the events, and explain my reactions to them. Please take time to read through this post and see the situation through my eyes. I was not even aware of Ms. McGuiness' problem until I received e-mails from customers and friends to check it out her message on this message board. Upon reading the post, of course I became very upset and took offense at it, which I think many of you would have done, being in my shoes. Possibly the shock and surprise element can best explain how I might have reacted in ways that were not appropriate. Hindsight is always 20-20. We pride ourselves with a good reputation for providing excellent service to our customers, and will do whatever is needed to resolve a problem. Prior to reading that message, I had never had any contact from Ms. McGuiness indicating that there was a problem, and I sincerely felt that if she really believed our crickets caused her leopard geckos harm, she should have called me personally and let me try to help out. Considering our reputation for handling customers with concerns, I would have made this one our top priority. It is because of this lack of contact from Ms. McGuiness, that I felt that we were unjustly accused of being the source of her geckos tragic illnesses and deaths. Although the information in her message sounded all well documented and well researched, and the tone of the message was not so much an accusation as a request for information, it still implied that my business was the cause of the problems. But I have to admit that the comment in Ms. McGuiness's message mentioning the success she was having with her new cricket provider, which she named, that particularly led me to believe she was attempting to target our business for harm. There really was no need, at that time to even mention names, as it had no bearing in the intent of her message. After reading her message, I tried to call Ms. McGuiness without success for a couple of days. I believe my timing in calling just didn't match her timing, as I was not able to reach her. It was only after these failed attempts to reach her by phone, that I felt it necessary to contact my attorney about writing her a letter concerning her message. I REALIZE NOW, THAT WAS NOT THE BEST THING I COULD HAVE DONE OR SHOULD HAVE DONE. And I will admit that my attorney, as attorneys can do sometimes, may have come on a bit too strongly in that letter. After receiving the letter from my attorney, Ms McGuiness sent me an e-mail in an effort to explain the post. Afterwards I attempted to call her again and this time was able to reach her. She was very pleasant to me on the phone and explained to me that what I perceived to be her intentions was not correct. Her intentions were simply to figure out why her leos were dying, and not to direct harm at my company. I explained to her that I was disappointed she did not call and try to work things out with me before taking her problem public, and that I really believed until that point she was trying to do my company harm, not figure out the problem with her leos. Again, I realize now the true intent of Ms. McGuiness' goal was the welfare of her animals, and not to damage my company's reputation. I am willing to say that I over-reacted and regret my action(s). But they all felt appropriate at the time. The last thing I wanted was to cause any more physical or emotional harm to Ms. McGuiness than she had already experienced. There will not be any further legal action taken on my part about this matter, and I hope we can bring this chapter to a close together. I feel very strongly that Grooms Cricket Farm has an excellent reputation for providing healthy crickets and great customer service and I do not want something like this to ruin our reputation or our customer relationships now and in the future. When we started this business, our goal was to give the best customer service possible, treat the small customer just as well as our larger customers, and just simply to be true to our word. So far we have succeeded, and we want to continue our track record. I do not believe it is necessary to have our crickets tested, simply because we have not had any complaints from anyone else about a problem such as Ms. McGuiness suffered. However, we also do not oppose it. If anyone would like our crickets tested, please call me or e-mail with the lab address of your choice and I will gladly submit a box for testing. In closing, I wish to restate that I do not believe our crickets caused Ms. McGuiness' leos illness or death. If they were the cause, I certainly expect I would have heard this from other customers, which we have not. I will admit, however, that I could have handled this situation much better. But I am human like everyone else out there, and can feel pain at being targeted in public, anger in being unjustly accused, frustration in having no way to resolve the problem, and humility and embarrassment when I realize I made a mistake in my reactions. However, I have learned something through this all that will hopefully make me a much wiser businessman. If nothing else positive comes out of this, I would at least hope that the point that has been made is for anyone having a problem to PLEASE let a company know about it before taking it public. We will bend over backwards to either solve the problem, or help you figure out the solution, but we have to know about it before we can do a thing about it. If anyone of you would put yourself into my shoes, you will probably find that my reactions were exactly how you would have reacted in my place. I only ask that you consider this before thinking bad of me, or my company. Thank you, Chris Grooms |
| Eric Macuski - Lizardarium |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
5037.html Posted At 19:05:05 06/30/2001 I think this is freedom of speach, and that lawyer should know that. This message board is a place for people to know what is good, bad, so-so, and whatever. This is almost like Freedom of the Press Act as well. Isn't this almost like a newspaper or newsletter? We have a right to post what we think on this board, and no lawyer of a company (nor company) can do any lawsuit about it. Apparently the company doesn't know of these laws of our country. I wish they would do their homework for a change instead of jumping to conclusions. |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
5038.html Posted At 19:43:47 06/30/2001 Eric, This is not a Freedom of Speech or Freedom of the Press issue. The first ammendment pertains ONLY to governmental infringement of those freedoms. The exact verbage pertaining to this topic is, "Congress shall make no law[...]abridging the freedom of speech[...]" The lawyer, Groom's, or whomever, is perfectly within their rights to initiate a lawsuit over this matter- or whatever else strikes their fancy. Whether their claim is justified or not would be another matter. The same Constitution that protects us (in theory) from an overzealous government also guarantees anyone the right to seek restitution when they feel that they have been wronged. |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
5041.html Posted At 22:44:29 06/30/2001 I have a bit of a different perspective about this. The Constitution of the U.S.A., and the Bill of Rights, were declarations of the rights we have and expect to enjoy as free citizens. These documents were written to be limitations of the federal government being created, not to limit OUR rights by the itemizing and listing of only those recognized rights, by itemizing IT's powers, not OUR rights. There is a vast difference between rights be recognized and privileges being granted. Then there is the Ninth Amendment which basically says, "just because we haven't thought of it and itemized it as a right, doesn't mean the government has any right to take it away from us." This has a trickle down effect. States that are members of the United States of America are expected, as a condition of this membership, to recognize the same limitations upon themselves. County laws, local ordinances, and any other restriction passed by any level of government is obligated to remain within the constraints of those limitations itemized in the documents that created this country. And we citizens, are in turn, obligated to recognize those rights of our fellow citizens as well. We have a right to do whatever is necessary to hold on to these freedoms for ourselves and an obligation to defend any other of us that would be threatened with a loss of any of those freedoms at ANY level. From a law being considered in Congress that violates the letter or spirit of the Constitution, to someone telling someone else to "SHUT UP OR I'LL SUE YOU!" just because they don't like what they are hearing that person saying. So yeah, I'm an idealist. And I'm sure there is plenty of case history showing that I am wrong. Read the Bill of Rights sometime and you will believe it is a work of fiction because of numerous infractions that happen every day and upheld in a court of law. But this is what I believe in, and this is what I will fight for. Maybe if more people would stop to consider what is best for US rather than what is best for ME, this country wouldn't be the mess that it is now. Hey! Who knocked me off of the soapbox! |
| Marcia McGuiness - The Lizard Lady |
Re: A sticky dilemma - need advice from the group
5055.html Posted At 12:45:55 07/01/2001 I believe it takes incredible humility and integrity for Mr. Grooms to have made this post, and I appreciate and respect his perspective. I have NEVER made ANY negative statement or opinion regarding Groom's Cricket Farms service or products, and I sincerely regret that this tragedy has escalated to the point it has. Thank you Mr. Grooms for making this statement. I feel confident that this ordeal can be resolved with mutual respect and compassion for the other's point of view. As I have already stated, please be assured that I did indeed speak to someone at Groom's when this situation came to light... it was just the wrong person I talked to! It was my intent to gather as much factual information BEFORE I made any accusations or allegations against Groom's business. Yes, I may have implied that Groom's crickets were the culprits, and perhaps I have also over-reacted, but keep in mind that I have never experienced the trauma of the horrible and needless deaths of 12 of my beloved Leopard Geckos, nor have I experienced being threatened with a lawsuit, either. As Mr. Gooms stated, we are ALL only human, and it is human nature to protect that which we love. I wanted to protect my geckos, and he wanted to protect his business. I would also like to acknowledge and offer my most sincere thanks to Rich Z for his committment and involvement in this "sticky dilemma", as I can hardly imagine the level of energy and emotions he has extended with this situation. I am deeply grateful to him for providing this forum, and for using the democratic process of putting the question to the forum users to help him determine the final outcome of this issue. I am overwhelmed by the unsolicited support by those of you who have responded with your opinions on this matter. Please accept my heartfelt appreciation for your encouragement and generosity in offering your financial assistance in the event this issue required me to seek legal counsel. I am indeed very fortunate to have such a remarkable network of friends. Sincerely, Marcia McGuiness "The Lizard Lady" |