| Author | Subject: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY) |
| Mark Berger | Posted At 17:01:44 07/04/2001
This message is an inquiry for shipping with USPS. Am I just having a bad week, or does USPS have NO CLUE what they are doing? This is a two part story. A. First, I made a deal with Ian Dungan, a regular here, for a trade. I sent my snakes off, and of course, there were shipping problems. The snakes made it all the way to Tennessee fine, and then were suddenly missing after being scanned at the post office there. It took until after 8:00 PM to find them, and get them to Ian. When I requested a refund, USPS suddenly claimed there was a delivery attempt made at 12:42 that same day. There was no record of this delivery attempt until the following day though, and Ian was home ALL day, waiting for them to deliver the snakes. In a nutshell, I paid $95 to have 3 snakes delivered by 3:00 the next day, and didnt have a clue what happened to them until after 8:00 that night. Now for part two: Ian sent me his snakes, and they were dropped off at 9:30 in the morning on the 2nd. The showed up as scanned at the distrobution center in Tennessee, and nothing more. Even though it is now the 4th, and they are two days late, two days missing. Express mail DOES deliver on holidays, btw. No one can help me, no one has a clue where the package is, but I have a suspicion that it is still in Tennessee, on the floor where the postal employees left it. I could be wrong, but the problem definitely seems to be at one particular location. What do you guys think? Is USPS always this bad? WHat can I do to fight this if these snakes show up sick or even worse-dead? In no way is this an attack on Ian. He has done everything in his power to try to help me. He has been great to deal with, even though we have had a TON of problems. Looking for advice, Mark Berger |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5267.html Posted At 18:39:16 07/04/2001 What can you do? In a word- nothing. Even if it were legal to ship snakes via USPS, there is no guarantee of live arrival. The only compensation you would be entitled to is a reinbursement of your postage for the package not arriving on time. I definitely wouldn't go complaining to USPS that the snakes arrived sick or dead (if they do), though- admitting to breaking the law isn't the smartest thing to do. All I can recommend is using the airlines in the future. It has the benefits of (1)being legal, and (2) if a DOA is caused by an act or omission on the airline's part, you are more likely to receive compensation. |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5268.html Posted At 18:57:15 07/04/2001 Like Ken said..There is really nothing to do. According to USPS shipping animals is okay. They just can't be snakes. I forgot what other animals are okay or not. but I just remember that snakes are not allowed to be shipped by usps. so shipping snakes through them is risky in two ways. One if anything happens....you can't complain to them. Two if you get caught--well I don't know what legal ramifications that will entail |
| Mark Berger |
Appreciate your response but...
5269.html Posted At 19:00:58 07/04/2001 Where exactly do I find this information that states shipping snakes through USPS as "illegal"? I have heard rumors, but no one has ever followed up on this with some factual evidence. But in any case, the legality of the shipment is not my concern. My problem is who do I talk to, and how do I find my package when no one at USPS wants to help?? I realize I may be just spinning my wheels here, and there isnt anything I can do right now buy wait, but I want to at least have the comfort of knowing if there is ANYTHING ELSE I can do to save these animals. If you would rather email me privately to tell me how you know about these legality issues, please do so. Mark Berger |
| Kelli Hammack, HISS |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5270.html Posted At 19:03:08 07/04/2001 Mark- Sorry to hear about your troubles with USPS Express Mail. I just wanted to say that we have shipped and received thousands of leopard geckos via USPS and although there have been a few (I can count these on one hand) late deliveries, we have never had ANY customers receive dead animals from us nor have we ever received dead animals when using this service. In fact, in all the years that HISS has been shipping and receiving reptiles there has never been an instance when a customer has received a dead animal from us. There have only been two occasions when we received dead animals, one case many years ago was due to baby corn snakes being shipped in deli cups with NO AIR HOLES (through Delta). They all arrived dead of course. The other was a recent shipment of 5 banded geckos that was sent Airborne Express and all five geckos were dead in the box, most likely due to extreme temps. I will never use Airborne to ship, mainly because their company policy states that they do not accept snakes or lizards. I was reluctant to be on the receiving end of an Airborne shipment but against my better judgement I agreed and...that's what happened. USPS will refund shipping charges to the shipper of the package if delivery is not when they guaranteed it, other than that you are pretty much SOL unfortunatly. Also just FYI, it is against the law to send any snakes, venomous or non-venomous, through the USPS. You can visit their website at http://www.usps.com and read all of their rules and regulations. I know lots of people do it, I am a goody two shoes I suppose, LOL. Your best bet for shipping snakes or high dollar lizards is airport to airport. Delta, USAir and other airlines offer this service and in the case of Delta it's usually somewhere between $35-$40 and we have never had a serious problem using their services. Good luck, I hope your snakes are ok. |
| Mark Berger |
Unfortunate situation
5271.html Posted At 19:11:45 07/04/2001 Well, as far as the shipping options are concerned, here is what I have available: I live in north central North Dakota. We are pretty much geographically isolated when it comes to having a way to ship things in or out of this state. Northwest Airlines is the only company that comes into the town I live in. This becomes a problem because Northwest is not always available in the area I am shipping to or the area my animals are being shipped from. UPS has policy against shipping snakes, so technically speaking, that is a no-go. As several people have stated, USPS is also a no-go because it is illegal to ship snakes. Airborne Express is a possibility, but some people have concerns with them. I personally have not yet had a problem with them, but have only used them once. They also have policy against shipping snakes. Thats about it... So, as you can see, I have to drive the snakes myself if I want to be within the law, within company policy, and an all around safe, law abiding citizen, yet still able to buy and/or sell snakes. This is enough for me to get out of snakes alltogether, no matter how much I love them. I guess there is always pet stores, unless someone else has an option for me!! Mark |
| Mark Berger |
USPS regulation on shipping snakes
5276.html Posted At 19:28:29 07/04/2001 Well, here it is: C022.3.2 Small Cold-Blooded Animals 3.2 Small, harmless, cold-blooded animals (except snakes and turtles) that do not require food or water or attention during handling in the mail and that do not create sanitary problems or obnoxious odors are mailable (e.g., baby alligators and caimans not more than 20 inches long, bloodworms, earthworms, mealworms, salamanders, leeches, lizards, snails, and tadpoles). As you can see, you can ship pretty much any reptile but snakes. Kinda BS, but no fighting it. Criminal Penalties 6.5 18 USC 1716B provides criminal penalties for mailing anything nonmailable under 39 USC 3014(b), unless the item is excepted under USPS regulations. 18 USC 1716D provides criminal penalties for mailing anything nonmailable under 39 USC 3015(c) and (d). I dont know where to find the actual criminal penalties, but if anyone else wants to look them up, that would be great. Mark |
| Glenn Bartley |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5277.html Posted At 19:35:04 07/04/2001 You asked where you can get info on the legality of shipping via the USPS. Simply go to their web site and search (it is there somewhere, I found it once after about an hour) or do it the old fashioned way and ask someone at the post office. It is definitely illegal, and I hope that the package was not delayed because they found the snakes. In your neck of the woods that would probably be a prosecutable case and a postal inspector's dream come true. As to how you can ship - well via air cargo is about the only way to do it without violating someone's rules or regulations. That does get expensive. Then again there are carriers like airborne express and their overnight delivery - but you cannot let on that they are snakes. You migth want to tell them that they are live animals of some type they accept - check their web site; at least that way they should care for the package like it actually contains something alive, but that may require pick up at the buyer's end at an airport. Most people ship illegally or at least in violation of the rules. |
| JERRY TRESSER |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5279.html Posted At 19:42:55 07/04/2001 I am amazed that you were unaware that shipping snakes is ILLEGAL. If you were ignorant of that fact Iam sure the receipient was not! This is why eventually this kind of problem where you totally disregard the Federal statutes, filters down to the rest of us . |
| Mark Berger |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5280.html Posted At 19:47:16 07/04/2001 From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [Laws in effect as of January 6, 1999] [Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between January 6, 1999 and October 26, 2000] [CITE: 18USC1716D] TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I--CRIMES CHAPTER 83--POSTAL SERVICE Sec. 1716D. Nonmailable injurious animals, plant pests, plants, and illegally taken fish, wildlife, and plants A person who knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail, according to the direction thereon, or at any place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, anything that section 3015 of title 39 declares to be nonmailable matter shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both. (Added Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXII, Sec. 320108(b)(1), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2113.) |
| Mark Berger |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5281.html Posted At 19:49:57 07/04/2001 As sad as it is, I actually believed a post I saw somewhere on this forum stating that it was perfectly legal. This is the first, only, and last time I will USPS. Please do not jump all over me for not knowing the factual truth. Mark |
| Tony Devlin |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5293.html Posted At 02:12:27 07/05/2001 Now I have a question. If shipping snakes is "illegal" via the USPS, then why does my post office accept outbound shipments knowing full well that it is snakes I have packaged? Ignorance perhaps? And would it not be them to be liable for not informing me or "John Q. Public" that this is indeed illegal for them to accept packages AT THE TIME OF DROPPING THEM OFF ACROSS THE COUNTER....and in a package clearly marked "live snakes"? Hmmmm catch 22? Tony Devlin |
| terri langley |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5297.html Posted At 07:23:02 07/05/2001 my post office also accepts my packages knowing there are snakes inside. we have conversations about what kinds of snakes and they still ship them every time and never mention them being illegal |
| Mark Berger |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5298.html Posted At 07:23:25 07/05/2001 That does put an interesting twist on it. It is without a doubt illegal though, as my above posts have proven. You could face criminal offenses for your actions. But if they knowingly accept it, now who is breaking the law?? Mark |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5300.html Posted At 10:17:44 07/05/2001 Terri, Tony, and Mark, You bring up a GREAT point in my eyes. Although it IS ILLEGAL to ship snakes through the USPS (it is a federeal crime as well), you can go to almost any post office and ask the man or woman at the desk and they will say it is ok..."as far as they know". This is sad. THEY should TRAIN THEIR PEOPLE. I am expected to know the polocies at the company I work for. Why should they not be accountable as well. I have looked into this from every angle and found that MOST USPS employees have not got a clue. Like you found Mark, the website clearly states that is is not permitted ("legal") to ship snakes. I would encourage everyone to go by the website, NOT what the postal employees tell you. FYI--- Had it been lizards or anything that they DO ship, you could have it replaced and declare a value of up to $500 and can purchase more insurance as high as $5000. There might be an arguement for the USPS to make though. The back of an express mail invoice only speaks to documents in this case. I am reading one now. SO I am not sure what they would say in the case of a animal. Brian Oakley |
| terri langley |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5309.html Posted At 13:37:37 07/05/2001 animals (reptiles) fall under perishable items. no coverage agianst loss. |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5310.html Posted At 13:56:37 07/05/2001 Fair enough! |
| Tim Hall |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5311.html Posted At 14:15:33 07/05/2001 To answer Mark's actual questions: Is USPS always this bad? These drone's are government paid employee's that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground. I'm suprised ANY mail makes it where its suppose to go. What can I do to fight them if your snakes show up dead?: NADA |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5315.html Posted At 15:19:28 07/05/2001 To answer the question about the scenerio where the local post office is unaware of the prohibition against mailing snakes... In a situation such as this (as with most first-time offenses), the RCSC will simply assume that it was an honest mistake, believe it or not. Procedurally, they will normally just send a nasty-gram to both the mailer and the post office that accepted the package. This procedure is in section 525 of publication 52. |
| Steve Schindler |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5340.html Posted At 23:36:17 07/05/2001 Obviously I don't have the shipping and receiving experience of many of the people here, but these are my experiences. I have never had a problem using the USPS for the 5 or 6 times I have used them for animals, (all receiving) or my weekly shipment of crickets. I have recieved snakes and sometimes they know and sometimes they do not know they are snakes. Most of the packages were marked "live harmless reptile" I never lied to them if they asked what was in them but I never offered info either. I have recieved a few packages via airborne express with no problems. the one time I used delta dash (the shippers insistance) the package was lost to them but showed up just fine at my............. local post office as far as I know, delta still doesn't know where the Package is. They didn't know 2 weeks later when I finally stopped calling them. They checked the package in in Cleveland and had no record of it from there. I have heard from a local fish wholesaler that in her experience, delta was the worst and the Midwest Express was very reliable. I also had a positive experience with northwest airlaines into Ohare |
| Todd Evans |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5354.html Posted At 00:54:45 07/06/2001 Unfortunately Delta Dash is the only viable way to ship venomous snakes. I have had 3 shipments (2 of venomous snakes and 1 with deadly scorpions, death stalkers) I did receive all shipments in good condition however they were a day or so late. The shipments were through Glades and they did the best they could to get them to me on time. The one shipment was dropped of for delivery at 6:00 PM EST and scheduled for arrival in PIT at 8:30 the following morning. I didn't get the call to pick up the packages until 9:30 the night of the delivery. I tracked the shipment for it's entirety and found that it had sat at ATL for about 12-14 hours. Our problem is that when a box is clearly marked "live venomous reptiles" the people at Delta seem to take them as a low priority or not a priority at all. I understand the fears that may be present, but come on....... |
| Ken Harbart |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5426.html Posted At 21:01:20 07/06/2001 Todd, give US Air a try if they're available at your airport. I've had far better success shipping hots with them than I have with Delta. Even snakes shipped "2nd day", arrive in a timely fasion- as little as four hours in regards to one shipment that I sent out. Like any carrier though, it has its detractors, but IMO, US Air is a notch above Delta in being herp-friendly. |
| timothy kelsey |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5445.html Posted At 09:51:34 07/07/2001 hi there everyone i ship all my snakes usps and they post offices nos that they are snakes and i talk to them about it all the time and they say it is ok to ship live harmless snakes i live in conneticut maybe its diffent up here but everytime i bring in a box of snakes we always have a disgution about them! at first they thought i couldnt ship snakes but they called the maniger down and talk to him about it so i have no clue does it change from state to state or are the postoffices just stupid people here in conneticut thanks timothy |
| Ian Dungan |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5624.html Posted At 14:59:20 07/10/2001 Mark, i finally got back online. my modem was fried in an electrical storm on the 6th. I realize that even due to the late delivery of the package that USPS wouldn't cover your loss so if anything at all is wrong with them or they die for whatever reason, just send ME the vet bill. If they wind up dead due to the delivery problem I will gladly buy the corpses from you for the value of the snakes you traded me. I have cut USPS off and now ship via UPS they are much more reliable. My post office here also accepted MANY packages clearly marked "Live Snakes". I am not a criminal and do not want to be thought of as such.:) Ian Dungan/ www.planetherp.com |
| Tim Madsen |
Re: United States Postal Service (INQUIRY)
5798.html Posted At 09:41:20 07/14/2001 Just a point of trivia, Airborn Express and most over night shippers use U.S.P.S. to move their shipments. The shippers drop it off at the U.S.P.S. office at the airport then U.S.P.S. handles it to the destination airport where the shipper picks it up and delivers it. Very few shipments get on the shippers own planes, most go on a commercial airplane with the rest of the U.S. mail. I thought you would like to know. |