| Author | Subject: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it |
| Ritchie Luna | Posted At 21:37:44 07/08/2001
Jeremy now has a BALL PYTHON on the kingsnake BOA classifieds. He says it is 100% het for albino. He says the parents were albino. And that this was one of two babies that hatched out as normal looking. Sorry Jeremy...but if you have the mother and the father as being albino......then ALL the babies should be albino. Anyone that has info to the contrary please correct me. But I doubt they will because what I wrote is true |
| jeremy rennison |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5502.html Posted At 22:28:25 07/08/2001 I am not being dishonest, I have a 9 month old male 100% het for albino ball python.... if you don't beleive me, I DON'T CARE!!! I no a lot of people that do know I have a het albino ball python, I had a male yesterday, I sold him here in IL, DIDN'T have him post it either, ok! I have another male coming in this tues. that is around 9months old, and he is 100% het for albino, I was told through an IM, (cause I was asking how the whole gene thing worked with these snakes) and I was told if he was 100% het his parents were either both 100% het or both albino, they said they have heard of normales being born in with albinos, and then they are 100% het for them.... I haven't been told yet how he is het for albino, just that he is guarranteed, and if he is bred to another het for albino, and no albinos, I get double my money back... it still works that way if I sell him, ok.... why don't you buy the het for albino, for 450, and just see how honest I am, then if not, you can post it here and REALLY make my life a living hell.. |
| ric morales |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5503.html Posted At 22:28:50 07/08/2001 well i've been watching the stories. didn't don't want to believe it i'm dealing with him now and yes he's changed his email addy i don't think this guy is 16 i think he's just SCREWING ALL OF US |
| ric morales |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5504.html Posted At 22:32:15 07/08/2001 well i've been watching the stories. didn't don't want to believe it i'm dealing with him now and yes he's changed his email addy i don't think this guy is 16 i think he's just SCREWING ALL OF US I SOLD HIM SOME SNAKES AND HAVEN'T RECIEVED ANY MONEY YET it was suppose to come through pay pal i will see what happens tomorrow will let you all know |
| jeremy rennison |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5510.html Posted At 23:00:00 07/08/2001 I am 16, born oct. 11 1984 I would give me drivers license number, but that is stupid to do over the internet, and ric, I would like to know which snakes I haven't paid for, I sent you 215 for the candycanes, 155 for the creamcicles, and 121 for the albino black rats... thats all I bought! whats up with this man??? I sent all money through paypal, I have the reciepts.... please don't do this man..... |
| ric morales |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5511.html Posted At 23:10:36 07/08/2001 look i'm not sure whats going on you have to pay shippping for all albin blk rats i'm not going to keep giving you deals when i haven't recieved a check yet so we'll see what happens |
| Don Mercer |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5512.html Posted At 00:00:15 07/09/2001 Hmmmm, I'd swear I recently read a post somewhere on this board that somebody was commenting on how all the damn "children" are ruining this hobby. Now where did I read that? Hmmm...... |
| Angela Dean |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5513.html Posted At 00:00:28 07/09/2001 First off albino to an albino breeding gives you all albinos...simple as that. I have never ever heard of any normals being born out of an albino to albino ball python breeding. If you're not getting genetics papers with this ball python then I'd say you got screwed. Second $450 is a bit steep for a 9 month old het albino male. Really not trying to start anything but you should just stick with keeping snakes and not trying to broker them. |
| Mark Kennedy |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5514.html Posted At 00:06:00 07/09/2001 Well, I don't know this guy and don't plan to but one thing I know for a fact is albino bred to albino produces all albino babies, thats a fact and nothing to argue about it. And a het to het breeding produces 25% albino, 50% hets and 25% normals. So the normals are 66% possible hets, NOT definite hets. And nothing to argue there either, thats genetics, end of story. |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5518.html Posted At 06:04:23 07/09/2001 Okay. I get it... You have a male. But you did not have him posted. And you were able to sell him. Then what was your add doing on the classified at kingsnake? Does that mean the add on kingsnake was for the animal you don't even have in your hands yet? Jeremy here are a couple more lessons for you to learn. Don't advertise for an animal you don't even have yet. You can't deny this. You just said the animal you sold was not "post it". That means your add is for the male that you don't have in your possesion. Never sell an animal you don't have is the first lesson. Here is your add pasted "I got a 9 month old baby ball python, he is 100% het for albino, guarranteed his parents were albino, and he was one out of two normals that hatched... he eats good, no mites no nothing... asking 350 for him, or will trade for??? " In your add you state the parents where albino. But in a leter you wrote to a friend of mine.....well here is the letter pasted "ok, I sold my one male, but I have another male coming in soon, I might sell him, he is guarranteed to be 100%het, he is about 9months old, he has no papers, but if you breed him to another 100%het, and get NO albinos, then you get double your money back ,ok.... this male is 9 months old, eating great, and I bought him from Jerry Tubbs, ok.. I am asking 450 for him when he comes in, as i said, if you get no albinos when you breed him, Jerry said he will double the money back, ok... Im the letter you wrote to my friend...you wrote her and told her you were not sure if you want to sell him or not. But yet your add on kingsnake says you want to sell him. Unless of course your add on kingsnake is for the animal you just sold. In that case you lied again because you just told us you sold him and he wasn't even "post it" Here we go. first lesson. never sell an animal you don't have. Second. Don't advertise that both parents are albinos when you are not really sure what the story was. Third quit lying |
| jeremy rennison` |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5519.html Posted At 06:47:29 07/09/2001 I deleted the ad for the 100%het for albino, I don't know how soon they get those off, but I deleted it that night, as soon as I got off work, thank you, bye the het for albino is 100%het, both parents were 100%het for albino, I got that from the guy that I bought him from |
| Bill Courtney |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5520.html Posted At 06:47:49 07/09/2001 funny jermey told me he was 19 also when i asked if the boa he had had mites he said it might and he'll rub vegetable oil on it before he shipes that will take care of the mites and the only ones left will be dead in the bag (what about the eggs?) also i was the guy gonna send you the "50% het 9 MONTH old ball" but i backed out of the deal also he gave me one of his other email address as a refrence DUDE GIVE IT UP YOUR CAUGHT |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5523.html Posted At 07:59:30 07/09/2001 Jeremy here is another lesson for you. This time it is in genetics. 100% het to 100% het this will get you 25% albino, 50% het and 25% normal that means out of the 75% that were normal looking only 66% of them are het. that means they should be sold as 66% possible het. They are not one hundred percent het. So both you and Jerry Tubbs are wrong. |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5524.html Posted At 08:02:39 07/09/2001 So Jeremy. Who did you really get your 9 month old 100% het from? Before you answer this question get your lies in order. |
| Darin Chappell |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5526.html Posted At 10:34:04 07/09/2001 Percentages aside, the only way I know to guarantee an animal is het for any recessive trait (assuming one cannot see the parents) is to breed it to another snake that exhibits the trait in question. If any of the offspring also show the trait, the normal looking parent can then be said to be het for that trait. However, the same snakes could just as easily produce a clutch of completely normal looking babies if the het parent only throws normal genes in that breeding. The normal looking parent would still be just as het for the recessive trait, but you would have no evidence of it from that breeding. So . . .to say that you have a 100% guaranteed het snake without having access to its parents is a little rediculous if you've never bred it to find out for sure. Since the snake in question is only nine months old . . .well, you do the math. Also, regardless of who it is that actually sold you the snake, it would be foolish to say something like "I'll give you double your money back if this snake doesn't produce some albinos when bred to an albino or one that is het for albinism." Even if the snake in question was really het for the trait, a single clutch of normal colored babies would prove or disprove anything at all. Jeremy appears to me to be either inept or unethical. Either way, I wouldn't do business with such a person. |
| Walter Hudson |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5535.html Posted At 13:37:39 07/09/2001 Jeremy, ur pissing me off! DONTS SELL ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT! I dont really think you're just 16. Be contented collecting animals but PLZZZZZZ Keep out of the market. Ritchie, Thanks for exposing all this. I thought it was a typo when I saw the ad at kingsnake.....i gave it the benefit of the doubt..... but from the looks of this thread it is....IGNORANCE..... or is this guy trying to really ripp us off? walter |
| Jerry Tubbs |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5537.html Posted At 14:26:44 07/09/2001 Hi , I told Jeremy the het came from a albino dad and a reg. mom ,therefore it is a 100% het albino ball.Is this true or not? Well, YES it is . Jeremy you need to get your story(s) straight before you say something that I said. You called me on the phone and you STILL didn't listen to what I said. I told you that a het to het breeding gives you a 25/50/25 split with the 25% normals being poss hets.I also told you that the male I was selling you was a 100% het from a albino to reg breeding,so that makes it 100% het.So from here on out LISTEN to me and EVERYONE ELSE better or write down what is being told to you ok?Now what I want to know is should i go threw with this deal with Jeremy or should I call it off?I was told he was 19 on the phone then he emailed me and said "I'm having alot of problems with people becuase I'm only 16." I emailed him back and told him I wouldn't ship until he had one of his parents to call me and say it was ok. I haven't heard from him since.So i want to ask you this ,should I go threw with the deal with him still?Or should I call it off? I'm asking on you good business people out there. Thanks for your time. |
| Corey Sawyer |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5538.html Posted At 14:40:36 07/09/2001 Jerry If someone can't be honest about his age, then what is keeping him from lying aobut other stuff? I would call it off. Corey |
| Jerry Tubbs |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5539.html Posted At 14:42:17 07/09/2001 Jeremy, I also told you the het was 100% het and if you bred it to a het that was 100% then you will get albinos based on genetics and no. of eggs .I also said the ball python was a male and was only a few weeks old, where do you get 9 months ? Thanks Jerry Tubbs |
| BILLIE GARR |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5541.html Posted At 15:29:39 07/09/2001 Jerry I don't think I would deal with this kid. Make a deal with him and your names gonna be associated with his. Look your already getting drawn into to it. I think thats the last thing you need after getting all that other crap finally cleared up I'd steer clear regaurdless if you hear from his parents or not. Just my opion. thanks billie. |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5542.html Posted At 16:02:14 07/09/2001 Sorry to doubt you Jerry. I should have known by now that you told him the right thing and that he probably just was not listening. He is only 16 but he is telling people he is nineteen. The story changes whenever he wants it to. I would only go through with the deal if you already have the money. If you have the money then go for it and send him the snakes. But I definitely would not ship before payment. |
| Tammy Jenkins |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5544.html Posted At 17:54:28 07/09/2001 Myself I wouldn't want my name to come up in his conversations concerning reptile sales. Don't think reality has hit him yet and he doesn't understand the grave he has made for himself. He can't remember his own age, can't remember the age of the snake he is selling or is going to sell once he gets it, says it is eating and has no mites but hasn't seen it eat or checked it himself for mites, the ad says he is asking $350 but then says in an email that it's $450, has a friend ask about him then lies for him as well about the wonderful packaging he did for shipment that never happened, can't get his details straight about this ball python I'm guessing because he just don't listen and only care about making a big name for himself. I myself have been keeping reptiles for 9 years now and just this year produced my first clutch of eggs. I'm in this for the love of the animals as I'm sure a big portion of the herpers here are. I shiver at the thoughts that are running in my head. I picture this poor snake being placed in a box and shipped to Jeremy's place, Jeremy has already sold the snake before it gets a chance to get a breath of fresh air and is sent off again to another destination. Personally I feel sorry for the animals that end up in this child's hands. Jeremy, I think you need to step back and look at the big picture here. The writing is on the wall and only a fool is going to deal with you now. Time to take what you have and run. Going to take a long long time for anyone to believe anything you say. Stay in school and get a good education. When you graduate maybe by then you will have learned enough to come back. |
| Kat Hall |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5546.html Posted At 18:09:04 07/09/2001 Hrm... I don't usually butt in on these things, but I just thought you guys should note this post made by Jeremy: http://herpwantads.com/forums/Inquiry/posts/5376.html Look at the second post he made, the one right below the first... In it he states that he owns every snake he puts up for sale... but from what I've read, he doesn't own the one discussed in this post. That's the factual content of this post. Here's my opinion: In my opinion, this Jeremy is not ever going to change his behavior. He'll keep doing things however he's been doing them, and then if caught he'll grovel and beg and promise never to do whatever he did ever again. Then, once he's let off the hook, he'll go back to doing it again until he's caught the next time. And so on and so forth... I've seen it happen with some shoplifting teens when I used to work retail. We caught them and gave them a lecture. They returned (some of) what they stole, and promised never to do it again. Wouldn't you know it, they stole from the store again. This goes to show that there are some people out there that will never change, just promise to change in order to avoid the consequences of their actions. I have no problems in dealing with a 16-year-old, but they had better be an -HONEST- 16-year-old. If they're dishonest, then there's no way in you-know-what that I'd deal with them. My $.02 -Kat |
| Chad Hanks |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5548.html Posted At 18:47:06 07/09/2001 I won't mention the breeders name without His concent but, I know the breeder and purchased two females Hets from the same clutch as Jerry Tubbs. I've seen the Albinos in His collection including the Albino fathering this clutch. I know for a fact these are 100% Het Albino babies. Unfortunetly we all suffer when the inexperienced try to pass themselves off as experts. And to cover their mistakes damage our valueble reputations. I personally have not done business with Jerry Tubbs, but I think Jeremy Rennison's ever changing story speaks for itself. As a lesson to all do not buy Hets from Breeders you do not know personally or by reputation. |
| Michael Pinkston |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5549.html Posted At 19:18:22 07/09/2001 Well I have been keeping up on the drama going on here since it all started. So far it is better than the deception on the old Dynasty reruns. *LOL* I have to agree totally with Tammy. She and I have 17 snakes and consider all of them pets. Yes we do beed and sell them but first and foremost is there well being. I have read in one of Jeremy's post about the profit he has made in the past year. And granted I am sure that alot of us do reap the benefits of breeding QUALITY snakes. But Jeremy...making a profit doesn't make you a business man. Making business is much, much more. Not only do your snakes MAKE OR BREAK YOU but you can also do it to yourself. Also regardless of the profit you make...don't be in this all for the money. Be in this beacuse you LOVE SNAKES. Tammy and I pride our selves on giving our snakes the closest possible to there own natural evironment. We also breed our snakes because we want them to live a natural course of life. Brumating ever year not just to breed but that is what they would do naturally. Of course we make a profit off of our snakes but that is the benefit of keeping them HAPPY and HEALTHY. By doing that and being honest with everyone you deal with is how you make a business. As for now Jeremy I think I can safely say that your internet snake selling business is over. I don't think anyone here will buy from you for quite some time. At least not till time has past enough to forget your name and give you time to grow up. Then maybe you will acctually realize the gravity of your mistake. Be honest in your business and you will go far. Treat your snakes well and you will reap the rewards. For now Jeremy...Stick to keeping them and get good at that...loving and caring for them...ya know what I mean? Then maybe they can teach you about responsiblity and trust. Lies will never get you anywhere but to more lies. Michael Pinkston |
| Michael Pinkston |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5565.html Posted At 21:10:16 07/09/2001 We breed and sell our snakes...not "beed" them. hmmmm...a beeded snake...that would be different.*LMAO* |
| jeremy rennison |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5566.html Posted At 21:10:22 07/09/2001 ok guys, look, I am admitting to everything, like I said before, I am sorry... but I really mean it, a lot more now... I called jerry tubbs, we talked a lot, he gave me a lot of advice on fixing my problems.. he said i haev a hard time keeping my stories straight, I am working on it. I didn't realize this... thanx to him, maybe I can fix all of this, and maybe we could all be friends, friends with trust, ok... that would be better, for all of us... thank you, and I will see you when I am older, bye |
| Walter Hudson |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5569.html Posted At 21:29:18 07/09/2001 Do you know the word TRUST? I doubt it! Can we give trust? it depends!, maybe to someone who deserves it. |
| jeremy rennison |
apology to jerry tubbs
5571.html Posted At 21:45:51 07/09/2001 I know at this point I deserve no ones trust, I deserve it too... I deserved everything I got from you guys, and I just wanted to say to Jerry tubbs that I am sorry for posting false things about a snake I bought from him, the 100%het for albino ball, and that I am sorry for not making sure that the whole genetic thing was right... I didn't know foresure, and I was wrong... sorry agian for giving you a bad post jerry.. your a good guy, and don't deserve this... thanx, bye |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5572.html Posted At 21:46:18 07/09/2001 Jeremy You have already apologized before and then turned around and started your stuff all over again.... Your apology was on July 7. Your add on kingsnake for a python you do not have is on July 7. Does this mean since you are apologizing now, I should go ahead and check the classifieds now? You had to talk to Jerry to realize your lies were not straight? Geez just read your posts and you could tell your lies were not in order. You could have saved Jerry some valuable time. Your selling over the internet is over for now. I am glad. I love my animals and I love my hobby. Yes it is only a hobby. Every once in a while I have customers. And if I can save customers money by keeping them from getting ripped off....then I am glad. When they come to this site and keyword my name....They will see a guy with a temper. They will see a guy who rambles on. They will see a guy who gets kinda stupid. And if they don't want to buy from me because of it....so be it... at least I am keeping them from wasting money with people who are dishonest like you. And if I have bad stuff appear about me all of a sudden.....I know it won't be true. Because I have done trades numerous times but only with the bigger breeders. . And the best part....I can tell you all my customers names.....All seven of them. And I know they were all satisfied....so don't even think about faking a name and an e-mail addy to try and get back at me for ruining your chosen feild......You ruined it yourself by misrepresenting your stuff. Do me a favor.....TAKE AN ETHICS CLASS |
| Nick Thomas |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5584.html Posted At 01:06:29 07/10/2001 And the moral of the story is......Don't lie. And if you do lie to better your business, don't lie to people who frequent the board of inquiry. I'm sure there's a better moral somewhere but I'm tired and am trying to be witty at the same time, trust me, it doesn't work. |
| Billy Fraser |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5587.html Posted At 02:00:15 07/10/2001 WHy don't we get in contact with his parents so he gets a spanking? ha ha............ |
| ric morales |
Re: Jeremy did right by me
5589.html Posted At 07:54:04 07/10/2001 Jeremy thanks for your business and sorry to have listened to all the others i paniced hey guys he does have all the albino blk rats and a 1.1 creamsucles thanks and have a great day |
| Kat Hall |
How sad...
5593.html Posted At 09:29:00 07/10/2001 This is purely my opinion, but I honestly don't believe Jeremy has a 'friend 20 minutes away' that posted on the other message. Not given the nature of his character I've seen. IMHO it's more likely he made that friend up, to keep from getting in worse trouble. Even if the friend is real, he seems to be the only one willing to speak up for Jeremy, something I'm not surprised about given everything else. How sad that Jeremy doesn't even know about heterozygous traits, that he doesn't know anything about honesty, and that he doesn't know anything about selling reptiles. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against a 16-year-old (or anyone of any other age) starting a business to make money, but they'd better practice good business techniques, know about what they're selling, and be honest about what they're selling. |
| Todd Evans |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5597.html Posted At 10:16:19 07/10/2001 All I cna san is that I'm really, really, REALLY glad that he hasn't started dealing venomous species. Todd Evans Beyondutopia Serpentarium |
| Darin Chappell |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5605.html Posted At 11:35:51 07/10/2001 Not to stir the fire more than necessary here, or anything . . . However, I think it is a bit ironic for Jerry to be admonishing Jeremy to get his story straight before passing himself off as an expert when he then goes on to make an error in his own post about expected het percentages. Maybe I'm all wet here, but I think Jerry was mistaken when he wrote, "I told you that a het to het breeding gives you a 25/50/25 split with the 25% normals being poss hets." If you breed two animals that are het for albinism, won't you be able to expect 25% albinos, 50% normals het for albinism, and 25% normals that are not het? Just my two cents' worth on this. No need to blow a gasket or anything. Darin |
| Jerry Tubbs |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5612.html Posted At 12:31:29 07/10/2001 Darin , maybe you didn't understand,but yes unless you are the only person that can can tell which of those normal looking babies are for fact the 50% hets , then the reminder normals are poss. hets. My definition of the 25/50/25 split is 25% albino,50%het for albino, and 25% normal ,so that would equal 75% on average that are normal looking babies.So you tell me how those 75% normals can be assured as to what is the normals and what is the actual hets, therefore you sell ALL the normals as poss. hets.Now you tell me am I wrong about that? That is exactly what I said in the post above, but I worded it diffrent so maybe you could understand better or anyone else out there that thinks I'm wrong. BTW where did you learn to tell the normal looking hets and the normal looking balls apart as in which are the actual hets ? Thanks Jerry Tubbs |
| Darin Chappell |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5618.html Posted At 13:51:58 07/10/2001 OK. I'm not going to get into a spitting match with you. That's not what you originally said. Scroll up and read it for what you wrote, not what you inteded to write, and you'll see that you messed up there. You should sell all the normal looking babies as being 66% possible het. No, I never did say that I could look at a normal and see its genetic make-up, I was just correcting your mistake after you tried to over yourself by jumping on Jeremy for getting his percentages wrong. If that offends you, sorry. |
| Jerry Tubbs |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5627.html Posted At 16:19:46 07/10/2001 I told you that a het to het breeding gives you a 25/50/25 split with the 25% normals being poss hets." That's what I said ,no matter how you look at it the albinos are albino ,the hets are hets and the normals are poss hets . Since you don't know which of the normal looking are the hets and which are just normal ,ALL NORMAL LOOKING ARE POSS HETS, that's what I said. I guess I could have said this and you wouldn't have thought I didn't know what I was talking about " I told you that a het to het breeding gives you a 25/50/25 split with the 25% normals being poss hets,BECAUSE you don't know which of the normal looking are the 50% hets , this making them all 66%, but technically no matter how you read either of those 2 posts the say the same thing. As far as jumping Jeremy ,I'm not.I'm just telling him to listen to what everyone and myself is telling him. I also to ld him to get his storied straight before saying something I said. Nothing mor ,nothing less.No offense intended and none taken .Thanks Jerry Tubbs |
| Tony Basica |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5667.html Posted At 19:17:49 07/11/2001 Has anyone contacted Kingsnake about dealings with this guy ?? I believe it takes 3 complaints and the account will be withdrawn, I'm also curious as to how a 16 year old got an account to post in the classifieds on kingsnake ??? Just curious Tony Basica |
| melissa newkirk |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5673.html Posted At 22:03:27 07/11/2001 I would just like to say that Jeremy gives everyone of us that is just trying to start our own breeding and selling of herps a bad name. I would like to eventually breed and sale snakes. I see now that new comers will be viewed as suspect. I havent had much experience with online herp buying and selling but I know not to rip someone off. I just want to thank Jeremy for making it worse for everyone trying to enjoy herps. |
| Roger Jolly |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5677.html Posted At 23:43:26 07/11/2001 I know this might be a radical thought, but has anyone bother to just contact his parents? Or are they the "he's only a child" type that think he can do no wrong? |
| Todd Evans Beyond Utopia Serpentarium |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5690.html Posted At 09:18:54 07/12/2001 Melissa, In response to your concern. I believe that breeders like you and myself are in a totally different class that the Jeremys of the world. They broker the animals that they sell. They buy them from a source, be it an importer or a breeder, then sell them at higher prices. Sometimes they break even, but most of the time they make a little profit. Breeders are the ones to trust in this business. They can prove without a shadow of a doubt that their stock is not wild caught, heck, they witnessed the birth. They can prove bloodlines, they OWN the blodline. The Barkers and the Clarks of the herp world will never be frowned upon, since they are the ones producing the stock. I really don't think that we as breeders should feel any fear due to the actions of these brokers (or in reptile show lingo, the jobbers) because with the mostly innadequate quality of the animals they sell, people will make a greater push for captive born animals. Think about the "farm raised" ball pythons. I could get 25 ball pythons at $4 a piece from an importer at a show. turn around and sell them for $25 a piece, which is still less than a breeder SHOULD sell them for. The problem is, the majority of those babies will die very early. Next thing you know, people will know why the breeders are pricing theirs at 50 to 75 dollars a piece. You only get what you pay for, and people will begin to realize that. The only people to trust are the breeders, otherwise you're not sure what your getting. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5692.html Posted At 10:29:16 07/12/2001 Todd, as both a breeder and a broker, I have to disagree with the way you catagorize brokering in general. EVERY REPTILE now in captivity can be traced back to the wild. W/O importers and brokers none of us would have anything to breed. As a rule there is nothing WRONG with an imported animal. Sure a captive bred ball python gives you a better chance at owning a healthy animal right out of the blocks, but you know what, I recently bought 8 baby balls for $75 (farm raised) all of them ate within 48 hours of me bringing them home and only one has died. And I've had them almost two months. I'll take 7 healthy imports for the price of one c.b. anyday. And one more thing, no one SHOULD tell anyone else how much to sell their animals for. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If the price is "too low for the public," buy the guy out and corner the market. I can't stand people telling me my prices are too low. When I get to pack up and leave a show early, that's when my prices will be too low. Brian |
| Todd Evans Beyond Utopia Serpentarium |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5696.html Posted At 11:25:36 07/12/2001 Brian, I didn't mean these comments as an attack or even criticism. The point I was making to Melissa in this case with Jeremy was mainly that the breeder knows the specifics of the animal (parents, date born, first shed?, first meal?) and that these facts are what seperate the strictly breeder vendors from the strictly import vendors. I also try to point out that with the market the way it is, ball pythons SHOULD be worth that much. By "farm raising" these creatures we are basically taking them out of the wild, destroying the natural balance. There are enough people that are breeding them that it is unnecessary to do this anymore. I had an experience in which I DID buy 25 baby balls from an importer (farm raised sounds so nice) I got the majority of them to eat, some died within days, some that I sold, ended up dying, leaving me to explain to the customer why this may have been. I'm just trying to make a point that Jeremy, when he buys these animals, takes the word of the dealer with them. The dealer (that probably bought them from someone else) took their source's word. by the time it gets back to the customer, who knows what happened. I once bought a rattlesnake from someone, I was told it was captive born, of course they didn't captive breed it. They were told it was captive born from their source. I then tried to sell it at a show, and found that the original owner recognized it and stated that he caught it himself. Therefore 2 people were given incorrect information, one knowingly, and the other totally oblivious. this happens ALL too often in this trade, and it disgusts me. Jeremy and other brokers can talk up a storm, but if I don't see the parents of a snake I'm buying, I won't ASSUME that it's captive born because they told me it was. Just as I'm not going to accept the "fact" that a baby snake is het for anything unless I've seen the lineage that would prove it. The problems I see with the trade in general that make it somewhat unethical is with the importation of certain species. There are enough people breeding BCI, balls, retics, burms, and such that we simply do not need to be importing them as often as we do. Same with the venomous species. I'm sorry but since a puff adder has 50 babies at a time, and people can't even sell those for $15, why are we importing more adults as well as juveniles. Once again, these are just my thoughts and opinion. Frankly I don't care if you agree with it, and I'm not directly TELLING you what to do. I'm voicing myself in the hopes that people will see things from a different perspective. I'm sorry if that perspective hurts your business, but I'm sure the Barkers have a different point of view. Thank you, |
| Andrew Potts |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5718.html Posted At 18:13:03 07/12/2001 To whom it may concern, To people who say that importing animals is ok i have this to say. Importing a few animals here and there to keep fresh blood coming in is one thing but the importing of thousands of animals is completely different. For instance lets take the baby balls. If there are people who think you can take tens of thousands of baby balls out of the ecosystem year after year and not have a negative effect are living in a hole. As to people who say that most baby balls live, well i say your wrong. Someone said they bought 8 baby balls and only one died.....well i beleive that to be true because he didnt have hundreds maybe thousands to deal with. Ive been to Srtictly Reptiles and seen many boxes of baby balls and they dont set them up. They pull from these boxes when they sell them. So if it takes 1 or 2 months so be it. I think a baby ball thats been sitting in a bag with 20 other baby balls in a box for 3,4,5,6, maybe even 8 weeks or more are not in the best condition. Now im not complaining because i realize thats the way it is, not just for balls but most imported animals suffer the same fate. They dont thrive and most die. Those who deal in imported animals know that most will die, some more than others, either in their control or after they sell them to someone. Its a fact of life that if you take high stress animals like herps and remove them from the enviroment in which they are accustomed they usually dont thrive. As for farm bred animals, well its alot better than those that have established themselves in the wild and need that enviromental stimulas to survive. But like i said most farm bred animals are not given the high level of hands on individual care that is needed as soon as they get in the country. That doesnt happen, at least not very often by those who import farm bred animals by the thousands. Another example is i know quite a few people who bought adult imported Dendrobates Tincs from various importers that came in a about 2 months ago from Surinam. I don't know of one person who has any that are still alive, and some of these people are poison frog breeding gods. I'm not even going to talk about the condition the ones i saw were in, thats another story. But do you think that will stop people from bringing them in again.....nope they will do it again and again and again. I'm not saying thats a bad thing its just reality. We do this for money. Now back to the person who only lost one out of eight, well thats 13% mortallity. Like i said earlier i think thats on the low side but i'll use that as an example. Do people in this forum think that a 13% loss of animals is exceptable....? I think that i saw about 10,000(not an accurate figure, just a quick overview) balls were imported last year alone, so at 13% about 1300(again not an accurate figure) didnt make it. So for those who deal in imported animals lets be honest about it and say thats the nature of the business and high mortallity rates are a fact of life. I didnt right this to start something, just my thoughts on what was said earlier in this post. As always its a blast to exchange thoughts with all the people on this forum. Ciao. Andrew Potts |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Jeremy (Dishonest) Still at it
5749.html Posted At 07:20:54 07/13/2001 Well damn! I had a nice, long, well written reply done and ready to put my name on it when my connection dumped and I lost the whole thing. So here we go again. Guys, here's the point(s) I'm trying to make, farm raised/imported doesn't necessarily mean bad anymore than captive bred/captive born means good. Buying from a broker doesn't mean you'll always get a bad animal and buying from the breeder doesn't mean you'll always get a good one. I handle about 100 baby balls a year. I buy some, I broker some. I make sure that every customer knows exactly what they are buying AND what that really means. 2000 and 2001 have been great years, mortality around 20% total. 1999 was about 30%. 1998 was horrible at 98% (with vet care). 96-97 about 25% So it varies each year. In '98 everyone was bitching about Strickly's saying it was all their fault and they'd never buy from them again. Well Strickly's has done it the same way for years and will continue to do it that way for as long as they can I'm sure. In '98 the animals came in sick and stayed that way until they died and there was nothing that could be done about it (at least not by my vet). I produce hundreds of true c.b./c.b. babies a year (corns,kings,milks,boas,pythons) 90% of them are awesome healthy little gems. But each year there are a few that just fail to thrive. The fact that they are c.b./c.b. doesn't matter to the snake. So judge each animal on it's own merits, not on weither or not it has the letters "c.b." on the cup. As far as captive breeding of balls there is no one (other than the farms) I know of that is producing even 5,000 balls a year so how in the world can herpetculture keep up with the demand.... The answer is we can't not as long as Africa keeps pumping out 50,000 babies a year. Is it bad for the environment? Yes, absolutely. But in a country were $5 can feed your family for weeks, those snakes are coming out, one way or the other, until the government puts a stop to it. Our way is cute little live babies with at least a shot at a good life. The other way, is lots and lots of purses, boots, luggage, belts, etc. Brian |