| Author | Subject: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics... |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles | Posted At 02:06:57 08/18/2001
This will be kinda long, as I am going to start from the beginning. I recently did a deal with Jay...a trade that I posted a few days ago, and didn't mention his name. Jay contacted me about some animals I posted for sale, and wanted to do a trade with me on them. I accepted. Well, as you can see from one of my last posts on this trade, you can find out the details of this particular deal. Well...I talked to Jay on the phone after that posting and he agreed to make up the DOA's with 3 adult squams and 2 babies since he was running low on adults and he had a lot of babies. Well a day or two later, he writes me and tells me that for some reason, all of his babies died, and he can only do the 3 adults....so I say ok, that's fine. Then, he says that he doesn't have many colored squams left, and all he has are like half yellow and half green...which I did the trade for 4 colored squams in the first place...so I say, ok...that's fine, as long as they have a lot of yellow. He also tells me that these are all perfect and feeding. I just picked them up at the airport a little while ago, and open them up, only to find that one female looks to be a normal green with yellow bands (very common), and the other female has a little more yellow (actually very pretty), and the male is what I was looking for, with probably half yellow and half green...although I guess his definition of perfect is different from mine, as the male has what appears to be burns on it's side and it is indented in two different places..almost as if it's ribs are broken or something...it's hard to tell. I have pics of all on my website with a close-up shot of the male's side. Another thing is that Jay called and left a message at my house today, saying what the airbill number was...without mentioning the shipper, so I had to guess on that one. Then I get to the airport only to find out that he shipped them freight collect! It wouldn't have been that bad if he would have told me that he did, and why. But, I show up at the airport with only a few dollars on me and I refuse the shipment. So, I'm driving in my car, and decide to turn around and stop at an ATM to pull money out to get them as I didn't want them to die. So, I go back in and pay and bring them home. The whole time, I keep thinking that all of these are just isolated incidents, and everything is ok....but I don't think several things in a matter of two or three days is an isolated incident! Now, let me start at the beginning with Jay. I dealth with Jay when I was first getting into the business about a year ago, and bought my first HOTs from him. He shipped me a cobra that died in transit. I told him it died and sent it back and he told me I had to pay shipping to get another. I told him I didn't like that idea too much, and we agreed to split the shipping. In the whole deal, he just had a presence of paranoia about him...almost like everyone was out to get him and take advantage of him. Then we did another deal...a trade...I sent him some boas I got from Jorday Russell that were partially striped on the tails and I told him that. He was to send me some puff adders in trade. I, of course, sent first, as Jay trusts nobody. When he gets them, he say, "They look nice, but I don't see where you get that they are striped." Next thing I know, he is advertising them on Kingsnake as partially striped boas...go figure! Now this deal come up and I am out $415 worth of animals that he wanted and he told me that if it were anyone else, they would be SOL!...but since it was me he would cover half...HALF! Well, I posted the trade in another post that you can read a little ways down the list. Anyway, Jay calls me up and says that he would send me the 3 adults and 2 babies, and as part of the agreement, I would have to clear his name. Well...As far as I'm concerned, he hasn't stood up to his end of the bargain! I got a green squam worth $50, another one that may be worth $75, and a very damaged male that I wouldn't sell for anything!!! On the phone, he also tells me that I will learn in the business not to believe everyone when they say that an animal dies in shipping. I know not to believe everything I hear, but I make sure the animal is dead before replacing it. His receipt says "Live Arrival Guarantee Only"! Well he has covered that pretty well in his website, where it says that animals won't be covered if the weather is above or below a certain temp., and animals won't be covered if they die due to the shipper not being on time. That about covers 3/4 of his claims that he doesn't have to worry about! Let's face it...how many of us have weather like in Florida, where it is nice most of the year? I don't! I live in TX. Our four seasons are December, January, February, and Summer!!! I'm sure that gets him out of a lot of claims, but that is just not good business! A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it. In this case, live arrival guarantee means only in perfect conditions. I believe that Jay does good business ONLY IF the conditions are right and the animals arrive safely. There is a saying that has stuck with me for a long time now..."It only takes one "Bad Boy!" to ruin a thousand "Ata Boys!!" What that means is, you can do something good a hundred times, and everything can go great and everyone thinks you're a hero, but when that one time comes that something goes wrong, and you don't make it right, then all those other times are forgotten. I believe that you will have good dealings with Jay as long as the animals get to you alive, but if they don't, I would consider it a loss and just don't expect anything out of it. In conclusion, "When the goin' gets tough, Jay gets goin'!" Now, for all of you that may say, why did you do this and why did you do that, and for all of you that say I'm lucky for getting anything at all...all I can say is that it doesn't matter now...it's over and done! However, if I can save one person from having this problem, then it is worth my posting. Sorry for jumping around so much with the timeline of events. I am steamed at the moment, and the thoughts are all jumbled in my head. Thanks for Your Time, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Steve Himes |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7694.html Posted At 12:32:59 08/18/2001 My thoughts are this: If you have a live arrival guarantee, you'd better be prepared to fix things when animals don't arrive alive. As long as the seller and buyer can agree on good weather conditions at both locations to facilitate safe shipping, any shipped animals should arrive live. If YOU issue the guarantee then don't try to blame the shipping company. And yes, you can't tell when someone decides to be dishonest, but if they call with a dead animal claim shortly after a timely receipt of the animals then I would think it must be deemed to be a legitimate claim. I need to buy a female N. Melanoleuca to breed with my male, but I'm not going to buy one until the fall, specifically because of possible inclement weather conditions. Unfortunately, I realize that not everyone can wait until the optimal time, so I guess who is responsible for what should be taken care of before shipping?! My .02 Steve |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7729.html Posted At 22:20:01 08/18/2001 Patrick, If I am not mistaken you live in a city that has very strict regulations against HOTS. In my personal opinion, I would be very particular as to who I complain about. It would not take much to find the City and number of the place you live at and make one phone call to the authorities. But like I said this is just my opinion from one hot keeper to another. |
| Jonathan McMIllan |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7736.html Posted At 23:15:24 08/18/2001 these are the laws for Texas not to start a fight but i just looked them up and typed it word for word Texas: Native Venomous: No permit required Exotic Venomous: No permit required Protected Native Venomous: Permit required Timber Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) Texas Parks and Wildlife Department 4200 Smith School Road Austin, TX 78744 |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7743.html Posted At 00:46:57 08/19/2001 Thank you so much for your deep concern John, but my HOTS are in Princeton, TX, which is outside the city limits, about half an hour from where I live. I don't see what your post has to do with mine, however? Here in the state of TX, it is perfectly legal to own HOTS without a permit, as long as I keep them in a place that is legal (i.e. - outside the city limits). I can live where ever I want to...really doesn't matter as long as I keep my animals where they are legal. Again, I know you were very deeply concerned about the matter, so I thought I would clear it up for you so you could sleep at night. Thanks, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7744.html Posted At 01:14:28 08/19/2001 John, It's posts like yours that make me lose respect for people without even knowing them. First of all, it had absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand here, and second, you are speaking of something that you do not know about. I like how you put it...let me see...how did you say it?..."I would be very particular as to who I complain about. It would not take much to find the City and number of the place you live at and make one phone call to the authorities." Hmmm...It wouldn't be that you are trying to be God in this particular situation, and trying to get someone in trouble is it? You say that you would be careful who I told, however, you just tell the whole world what you think you know...and DON'T. I think a private e-mail would have been sufficient until you knew the facts, and before you start an uproar, which is clearly what you intended to do. Please don't write back here telling me how you were not trying to make anything sound bad...You can save your typing. I think that it would have been more professional had you sent me a private e-mail...PERIOD! I Thank You...It is the people like you that make my list of "People not to do business with"...not a stupid, chlidish list here on a public forum. Sincerely, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7761.html Posted At 07:31:51 08/19/2001 Patrick, Lets start off by telling the truth here and now. I know for a fact that you live in Plano, Tx and that is were you keep your HOTS at not Princeton !!! I was'nt going to say anything but since you cannot take any kind of response other than what you expect to here then I guess deserve this. You have told one to many breeders that I do business with in Texas and they just mentioned it to me. You have turned this around and I know it has nothing to do with the topic. But I guess I can go and start a new thread if that is what you like ???? But if we are going to talk like adults here and not make acusations like " Hmmm...It wouldn't be that you are trying to be God in this particular situation, and trying to get someone in trouble is it " . Don't get mad at me because you are keeping some of the deadliest snakes in the world at apt 213 in Plano, Tx . That is were you live and keep the HOTS correct ? So you are either lying to us or you are lying to a few top HOT breeders . Just in case you are wondering to find the info on you it's under www.whitepages.com . I was trying to tell you to be careful, people can be so vindictive . I do not care one way or the other about how or you keep your animals. But let me remind you this is my own personal opinion and these post are free for public opinion. So if you cannot take the criticism then DON'T POST HERE. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7763.html Posted At 07:46:30 08/19/2001 You must be friends with Jay. I do live at that address, but no longer do my hots stay with me. I have been working, for a while now, on getting land nearby, and finally have. I am renting an acre from a friend, and keep my animals there. I don't have any other address than the one here, so I have to use it! Please don't spread anything else that you don't know for sure. Until you see for yourself, it is all hearsay and you are only speculating. You should find out for yourself before accusing John! Thanks, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7764.html Posted At 07:52:20 08/19/2001 I don't know what has caused you to attack me the way you did, but I can tell you that I am one of the best people to do business with...still left in this business. I'm sorry you didn't like what I had to say about Jay, but it is all fact! If you have something against me personally, which I don't think you do, please e-mail me and we will talk about it. It would be a shame for too many incidents such as your attack on me for no apparent reason to run off all the good guys and leave only people that I care not to mention. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7765.html Posted At 08:18:32 08/19/2001 Patrick, You should have taken it with a grain of salt on moved on !!! No personal attack here, I was just stating my personal opinion. You are the one who attacked when you could not take the criticism. It is just hard for me to understand how a Big Businessman like you is un-employed and trying to pay for a 1 bedroom apt, snake food and still buy land in a Crappy Place like Princeton , Tx. But I guess when you broker other peoples animals out of Dallas, Tx you make a killing right ? The reason I know this to be factual is because I have spoken to the owner of this Import/Export business. Might I ad who is a GREAT GUY . It's just that you have produced nothing and are just out to make a quick buck by selling someone elses snake. It is so funny to here you say "I can tell you that I am one of the best people to do business with...still left in this business ". Since you have only been selling herps for about a year just like you stated in another thread. So don't turn this around and try to say I attacked you when you are just mad because I stated a fact that could ruin you business. Believe I know from first hand experience. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7766.html Posted At 08:33:34 08/19/2001 I am renting the land for $300/yr. actually so it's not killing me. What does me brokering animals have to do with anything? There are a lot of people that do the same thing and are great people to do business with! My collection is downsizing so I may just broker animals instead of doing my own. I have never claimed to produce all of my animals, so I don't know where that is relevent. Nothing you have stated can ruin my business as I no longer keep my hots here. The only thing I am keeping are a few retics, small animals, and 2 cats. So, are you just looking for things to pick on someone for or do you have a reason to post things that you don't know? Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7767.html Posted At 08:44:40 08/19/2001 Well...I am keeping one hot here. I am purchasing a blue ringed octopus, but to my knowledge, there are no laws on them as of yet. They can put a killin' on you though. It sounds as if you are just out to get me or something John. I have wronged you in no way...nor anyone else for that matter. p.s. - Yes...Jasen is a fantastic person to deal with! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7768.html Posted At 08:45:13 08/19/2001 Patrick, No picking here, just entitles to my .02 like everyone else. Just make sure that the Retics are under 6' because those are also restricted against in the City of Plano. So you around at the herp shows. |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7769.html Posted At 08:59:50 08/19/2001 Patrick, Blue Rings are awsome specimens. They are also leagal to keep in Plano. Before you ask if I think I am an expert, the answer is " close enough ". I happen to work for a little business known as the TPWD. I have been reading your's and a few other selected people post for quite a while now and find a few of them amusing. We'll be talking soon. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7770.html Posted At 09:03:22 08/19/2001 Yes...I am at all the local shows. By the way, it's 8'...not 6' on the boids in Plano. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7771.html Posted At 09:12:20 08/19/2001 E-Mail me John. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7772.html Posted At 09:28:23 08/19/2001 Patrick, Due to the nature of this post, I have to keep this public. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7773.html Posted At 09:57:11 08/19/2001 John, I would like to talk to you on other things. If you are who you say you are, I have other matters to talk to you about other than reptiles that have nothing to do with this forum. I am speaking of Cats and such. Please e-mail me...if you like, you can include your phone number so I can contact you. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Jason Thurber |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7778.html Posted At 10:03:23 08/19/2001 John, Are you threatening someone with animal control? That's about as low as it gets, buddy. Remember, those who live by the sword can die by the sword. Ordinances can pass anywhere and should one pass in your town, I hope you are not subjected to a "Nark". If you keep reptiles yourself, it would be particularly dishonorable of you to have someone else's taken away, unless they were proven unfit to keep them. Also, your working for texas p and r means nothing to me or anybody else that has worked for the same type of institutions. Working for a zoo, pet store, nature center, etc. does NOT make you an expert. It does, unfortunately, make alot of people self-righteous and hypocritical. I don't know who's right or wrong on the "issue" in this thread, but threatening someone with the system for commiting the same acts as yourself is pretty chicken-sh#t. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7780.html Posted At 10:19:49 08/19/2001 It's ok Jason. There is nothing here to hide. Whoever wants to, can come marching in my place. There is nothing here except for some turtles that are under 4", but if I were to get busted for that, then I guess the person I got them from would too, and that won't happen. I am in no danger, nor threatened in any way. Just because I live where I live, doesn't mean it's illegal to have the animals I have, if they live where they live. They are perfectly legally kept by the laws of the State of TX. I appreciate your comments however!!! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Jason Thurber |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7789.html Posted At 11:32:22 08/19/2001 Well Patrick, It's not o.k. These self-righteous, hypocritical, and manipulative people are more than just annoying. They hurt both the animals and the people that keep them. They claim to be acting in the animals best interest, yet they are willing to take the next step in an animals demise. If natural habitat is depleting for an animal/animals, what do you think their only chance of survival is until the problem is fixed? Captive propogation and breeding by responsible people, right? Why would anyone that cared for animals not want responsible people keeping and breeding them? Even if your animals are pets and not part of the TRUE conservation effort, noone has the right to tell you that you can't keep them unless the animal's suffering, it poses a physical threat to others, or it is rare and/or dangerous and you do not bother to acquire the license to keep it. |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7793.html Posted At 12:43:47 08/19/2001 Jason, I apprecite your .02 ! It may not matter to you wheather or not that I am a Game Warden for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. But to allot of people in Texas it does ! Now to the implication that I am a " NARK ", I am not but I receive many phone calls and E-Mails of people who are. I love animals as much as the next conservationist, but when people brake the regulations set forth by there governing cities this is where I come in. Nothing was ever meant to cause Patrick any worry just that some complaints have been made against a few individuals who keep HOTS in Texas and I have to follow up. Since Patrick has moved his HOTS, he has taken the first step into keeping his venemous snakes. By the way, I do keep allot of HERPS. I confiscate several animals every week that are not kept in sanitary housing and most have to be returned to the wild or shipped back to there native country. I felt that it would be very beneficial to Patrick if I confronted him here rather than at his residence with a warrant to search the premises under the suspicion of keeping harmful animals. |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7795.html Posted At 13:10:20 08/19/2001 Hi John, I have a question for you. No, I am not in the same line of work as you nor do I live in Texas. The laws may be different there. My question is this......how can you get a search warrant to search someones house or facility where reptiles are kept "under the suspicion of keeping harmful animals"? Wouldn't you have to search AT LEAST every person or persons who keep reptiles? That just seems a little vague to me. I have known of people where I live that have never kept a reptile as a pet or breeding purposes who at one time have found something in the wild and kept it for a while. My point is, under your words, you could quite possibly search each and EVERY building structure in the state of Texas if you went on just suspition. To me, that just does not seem right. Personally, I do not care, I do not live in Texas and have NEVER kept venimous animals from my state OR any other. I enjoy the reptiles that I currently have. I guess what I am trying to say is this. What ever happened to facts. How can you search a person on just "suspition"? Brian Oakley |
| Jason Thurber |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7797.html Posted At 13:29:49 08/19/2001 If it is a regulation set forth by city government, why would you, a state official, be called and not the cities own animal control? I know that, here in MIssouri, the state does not enforce city ordinances, only state. Is it the state departments policy to follow-up on a city violation, even if it does not violate on a state level in Texas? I am also interested in hearing about how a warrant is issued to search for dangerous animals that are alledgedly being kept. |
| scott cook |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7799.html Posted At 13:33:57 08/19/2001 I have sat here and read this all with amazement. John Hughs are you overstepping your position as game warden from Texas? You come on here and go out of your way to attack and threaten north texas reptiles in my opinion. You have no regard for him at all. You posted his address for everyone to see. That was not something a professional would do! Pat you should file a complaint and get a lawyer and sue the state and john for harrasment charges. Also it looks to me that John has a personal vendetta against Pat. He also states in a threatning way " we'll be talking soon" John it sounds to me that you think you are the big man just because of your job. I never did like anyone in authority because they always sooner or later abuse their position just like John has done here. John you are in now way very special or above anyone else. Anyone can fill your position as a game warden. Good thing you have a government job because you probably couldn't make it in the real world. I am sure you can tell by now I have no respect for you or your position and that is due to how you handled yourself on here. THANK GOD I DON'T LIVE IN TEXAS AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH YOU!!!!!! Pat if I were you I would be careful cause this guy is going to try to cause you grief in one way or the other, be smart and consult a lawyer before this gets out of hand and have a record of it. Build your harrasment case now. I don't know you Pat and maybe you would rather I say nothing but I had too! Hope I have not upset you with my post. John feel free to say whatever you like. Nothing you say will change my opinion of you. |
| Michael Mastison |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7800.html Posted At 14:31:42 08/19/2001 John here's my problem with you. I am not aware of the laws in Texas, but where I come from game wardens are respected and trusted. You wouldn't have the trust of a cow pie here. If, per chance, Patrick is keeping hots where they are illegal, I would think that your department and the state and federal agancies that govern you, would prefer to keep that undisclosed until either an arrest or vidication was made. You have breached any possibilities of that happening and have therefore dispursed any chance that your dept MAY have had of doing either. You seem more to me like a little boy who found his fathers gun than any type of wildlife official. I'm quite sure that your superiors will look down at these posts as well. Kepp it in the office, not on a public forum. Just my opinion.M.M. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7802.html Posted At 14:43:47 08/19/2001 I thank you for your post Scott. I believe John knows how unprofessional and how WRONG he is now for posting what he did. I was very upset at the false claim he made without knowing earlier, but I have since blown it off in a way. I would love to him to get a warrant...if he can. I have nothing to hide and all my animals are kept legally. I thought, and John knows, that posting my address was a big mistake. That is private information that he and the state can be sued over. I'm sure he knows this, but only the webmaster can take it back now. I have copied and saved all of this for future reference. Just so all of my customers know...You can look beyond this thread and see that I am a good guy and do good business...regardless of where I live, what I keep, or how long I have been in business. I have been in this business long enough to establish a name for myself, and I believe it is a good one. I have many, many references, and am more than willing to give them...I even have several posted on my website. As for John, I did take the "We'll be talking soon" as a threat. I would love to talk to you soon. I have questions for you about other matters as well, but I see that you have not given adequate information (i.e. - not working e-mail address) for me to contact you. It appears that you want to keep this public to try to bring my business down, when there is nothing to bring down. I would actually like to meet you in person. We know a lot of the same people, and I am not the bad guy you have made me out to be here. Perhaps we could establish a relationship. In the business we are both in, we might as well get to know each other. You will be seeing and hearing more of me in the future, so let's get it going. Thanks, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7803.html Posted At 14:44:28 08/19/2001 Not to throw fuel to the fire, but Ilike to learn. I therefore found the Texas Park and Wildlifewebsite. I am sure alot of these questions can be answered. John, I doubt I will find the answers to the questions I had, so if you could help me Iwould appreciate it. The link to the website is this: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/ Brian Oakley |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7805.html Posted At 15:28:09 08/19/2001 Brian, As far as all the questions go, the only one I'll answers is this. A game warden in any state does not have to have a warrent at all if he/she feels that there is enough suspicion to provide evidence against that person ( i.e. poaching ). Whether he/she finds any animals, contraband, etc does not matter. That is the right given to us by the U.S. Government and our local and state laws. The web site you posted is a good one, take a while go there and read the laws. Laws surounding animals of all sorts are immplemented every day and some are not updated. Suspicion is all started from a complaint in which I said many are made every day. Just not enough Game Wardens to go around. Patrick, The comment I made that you feel as a threat was not meant that way. I was simply stating that we may be in contact with each other for the fact that I enjoy talking to someone who is knowledgable and practices venom extracting and anti-venom projects. But take it as you will, all these other people are not helping. You can keep all the post you want because when I am off duty and I state " In My Personal Opinion " it is just that. Even if I was not a game warden at all and I was very knowledgable in laws that govern us, what are you going to do sue me because I have that knowledge. So to all those who say " Get A Lawyer " need to understand that this is between me and you and not them. Again this all in my personal opinion. If I wanted to ruin your business you really think that I would be talking about the laws and not trying to slander you like allot of people here. Again, I have been sticking to the subject between me and you at hand not bringing in other stories. I was simply throwing in my .02 when you had to be a smart- a-- and say " Again, I know you were very deeply concerned about the matter, so I thought I would clear it up for you so you could sleep at night ". As far as the giving your address, that is public record for all at www.whitepages.com. If you do not want it public then have it Non-listed. There was no BIG MISTAKE made and no one will be sued. If it can be found on the internet then it is public FOR NON-HACKERS!!! Freedom of Speach gives me the right to talk about any subject I want off-duty so suing the state, government, TPWD is far from going to happen IN MY PERSONAL OPINION. I will call you so that we can talk more about the hots and the programs that you have going. |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7808.html Posted At 15:42:57 08/19/2001 John, I appreciate the response. yes, the website IS a neat one........just WAY TOO BIG to get any valuable info off of in one day. I have to go back to the suspision thing again. EXAMPLE ONLY: If I had myself and 500 friends call the authorities and said you had HOTS in your posession (suppose it was in a place that they should not be), those phone calls are not worthy of anything until it is proven. If an officer of ANY KIND came to your door, you can look that officer in the eyes and tell him he can not come in UNLESS he can see something in plain site from where he/she is standing (outside the door in this case). It would be an invasion of privacy every time if you all just came in and started searching without a warrant OR something you saw while at the door. Again, correct me if I am wrong, I work for a major corporation, I am not a officer of the law. Brian Oakley |
| John Hughs |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7809.html Posted At 15:55:06 08/19/2001 Brian, All complaints that are filed are considered to be legit until proven otherwise. That is why we hire lawyers right,in case of situations like the ones you described. But yes, we usually wait until 5 or more complaints have been made before we start to gather info on the subject. No we do not always have to have warrants to search private property. Otherwise we would not catch poachers. Think about it if we did not have this right given to us by the government then poaching would 9 times out of 10 go unsolved due to the hiding of poached or illeagal animals because I had to go get a search warrant. Believe me the judicial system becomes very linient in handing them out when it comes to animals. It is not as easy as you think, we do not just go out and break in homes. We probably set up stings to watch the subject, videotape, and send in undercover agents to check out the scene. The only difference between Game Wardens and Cops are that animals are usually involved. We care about the conservation of animals more than you can imagine. That is why we are here in every state. The E-Mail is now correct and to all who could not get through SORRY !!! |
| Brian Oakley |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7810.html Posted At 16:12:54 08/19/2001 John, I, again, appreciate your response. I feel IN MY OPINION there is alot of gray area there. You did help out a bit by talking about "stings" (video, audio etc.) I just feel like they way you WORDED it makes it sound like one is guilty until proven innocent...."All complaints that are filed are considered to be legit until proven otherwise. That is why we hire lawyers right...." I just think that is a little touchy. Do not get me wrong, I am not arguing the matter, you have your job and I have mine. That is why I am asking you rather than myself. Sounds to me like you have a better chance at living if you kill a human rather than killing an animal. (yes, some sarcasm, but that is what it sounds like) Brian Oakley |
| Tom Townsend (Blackwater Reptiles) |
Game Wardens
7815.html Posted At 17:30:19 08/19/2001 I do not know how things are in Texas, but here in Virginia, Game Wardens are the most "powerful" Law Enforcement Officers in the entire Commonwealth. Game Wardens are Deputy Federal Fish and Wildlife Officers, and have all of the authority of the Virginia State Police. All this and more "power" to enforce the laws pertaining to wildlife and more. I know many people who are quite smug about being stopped by a Game Warden, until they find out that they are in deep sh!t for not only violating game laws, but for traffic, and or other violations as well. I read this entire thread, and found it quite baffling how anyone could take John's original post as a threat or as anything other than a friendly suggestion to watch what is posted here. It is common knowledge that wildlife enforcement officers read all manner of classifieds and message boards in an attempt to gather information about individuals or groups who regularly violate game laws. Anyone stupid enough to post incriminating statements about animals they keep or collect in a public forum like this is deserving of the penalties associated with conviction for breaking the laws. I don't know either of the two primaries in this discussion, but I do know that Patrick received animals in terrible condition in his "trade" with this Jay person. I'd be embarrassed to send snakes to anyone that were in that kind of shape. I looked at the photo of the male snake on the Kingsnake.com venomous classifieds yesterday, and I was angry that an animal in that bad of condition would be sent to anyone as anything other than a rescue project. I think you (Patrick) have a legitimate reason to be upset by the animals you received. I also think John was attempting to provide you with a *very* friendly warning to be careful about what you do and what you post in public. I'd take his advice and be thankful you didn't get a visit from your local Game Wardens in the middle of the night. Apparently you are now "known" to them, just as I am known to my local law enforcement and Game Warden. I teach Hunter Education, so they have "known" me for a long time. I got bit by a cobra earlier this year, and everyone was surprised to find out I kept venomous. It wasn't something I told anyone in town about. I was not inviolation of any law, but I received a home visit to make sure I was "clean." I expect I'll be seing more of the local Game Warden, and I will continue to keep all of my activities LEGAL, not because I am afraid of anything, but because it is the right thing to do. Please do not think I am being critical, or siding with anyone here. I think it is important for Law Enforcement to protect the animals as the law is written. I also think that is it our responsibility to maintain a respect for the law. If we don't like the laws we can either change them or move. I like it right where I am, so I'll keep everything on the correct side of the law until I can't stand the law anymore, and then I'll do everything in my power to change the law through the legislative process.... I hope you two men can resolve whatever differences you may have. I also hop you (Patrick) can get some kind of compensation out of Jay, however it looks doubtful you shall at this point... Tom Townsend (Blackwater Reptiles) |
| Michael Mastison |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7827.html Posted At 19:48:51 08/19/2001 I'm going to have to agree with Brian on this one. It sounds to me as though people are considered guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of Texas game wardens. How can these complaints be caonisered legit if the accused person does not have the right to defend himself against these accusations? As I stated before, the game wardens in our state are very respected, but I als know the amount of schooling it takes to become a game warden, and frankly I do not think that you are educated enough to make that call. Hell, we don't trust our own police officeres and highwy patrol to makes these calls. They are required to go to a more educated person, a judge, to make these calls. This board is the perfect example of what a little power in the hands of the ignorant can do, and I'm supposed to think that animals in the US aare safer because of people like John Hughs? I think not. I will be investigating further into this and his public appearance with federal authorities in this coming week to try and find out just how much the Texas Wildlife Dept. can give "*very* friendly warning s" before it can be construed as a threat! This is in my opinion, abuse by a public and state official. My opinion again. M.M. |
| Mark Kennedy |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7866.html Posted At 02:38:22 08/20/2001 What is this Russia? Its like this guy is using scare tactics, isn't it? I've got a badge and I want everyone to know-BIG DEAL! This is the USA give me a break! Hey Patrick you should move to Pennsylvania the land of the free where we can keep what ever the hell we want to keep! There is no KGB here! |
| robin day |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7867.html Posted At 03:04:09 08/20/2001 Tom, I totally agree with you. I am from Texas and yes our game wardens are pretty much like they are in virginia. with all the internet trading and commerce , different task forces are formed to crack down on local keepers ,buyers and sellers. I don't think John in any way shape or form is threatening. I think he keeps herps and understands to a point and at the same time he is having to do his job. People who are in other states whether talking about non-ven or vens.. try to abind by the rules because it is the people who do not, that law enforcement agenices, rulemakers and media will exploit to try and ban us keeping our herps. All i mean is play by the rules and be a responsible herp keeper. -robin |
| john albrecht |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7876.html Posted At 12:19:06 08/20/2001 I bet everyone on this forum knows of at least one herper that they wish would be visited by a wildlife official. These people are needed. But it does appear that there is a high risk factor of relatively innocent herpers getting burned because of the possibility of too much power being vested to someone with too little knowledge or too little sensativity and common sense. I suppose, if the law was strictly followed there are thousands of 10-12 year old children that should be in handcuffs for picking up the wrong turtle on the road eh? And i'd be willing to bet that there is more than 1 officer that would happily do that. |
| Pat DelTurco |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7879.html Posted At 13:09:24 08/20/2001 I gotta throw the BS flag here. I don't think ANY legitimate law enforcement officer would attempt to conduct an investigation or bait a suppossed violator this way..on a public forum. John, if you are for real, you need some lessons on how to conduct an investigation. I am also guessing a legitimate game warden could spell "VENOMOUS" |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7901.html Posted At 21:25:14 08/20/2001 Joey...the webmaster hasn't kicked you off here yet? Anyway...for you and all others on here...My HOTs are totally legally kept. They are almost exactly 100 yards outside the city limits and John, or anyone else from Fish and Game are more then welcome to check me, and my HOTs, out. You have speculated just as John has. Just because someone posts something on here, Joey, doesn't make it true. John knows where I live, and is more than welcome to come visit. If any of you insist on knowing where they are kept exactly, I can give an exact address via e-mail. Now...if you, my friend (Joey), want to keep on about me illegally keeping my animals, you WILL have legal matters to deal with. As for me getting bit by a HOT...You are just a lowlife Joey. I wouldn't even wish that on someone I hated...such as you! You might want to watch what you say...you WILL mess up sometime and it WILL bite you in the a**! Trust Me, Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles p.s. - Joey...Give me one example of one of my business deals gone bad that I haven't admitted my fault (Jordan Russell was the only one!). Just give me one gone bad. Or give me just one example...JUST ONE...not speculation...not hearsay...that you KNOW OF FOR A FACT, of me doing bad business. Then I can give you examples of yours...although I really won't have to...it's all in your posts! OK...Ready...GO! Patick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Neil Gubitz - The Snake Pit - Tampa, FL |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7904.html Posted At 21:39:01 08/20/2001 John, I've got a question for you??? What would you do to a guy that would send 100 Salamanders in a BLACK GARBAGE BAG and send them GROUND (6 day service) because the buyer didn't send enough money for Next Day Air delivery??? By the way...am I dreaming, or was that REALLY a thread from JOEY with NO CURSE WORDS in it??!!!! That must have been the TOUGHEST thing he's ever had to do! LOL Patrick, You know as well as I, that if you go by the "book", you will NEVER have to worry! (with rare exceptions, that is)! So just keep doing what you're doing in a legal manner (like you are), and keep up the HARD WORK of staying a GOOD GUY!!! IN MY PERSONAL OPINION! lol |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7905.html Posted At 21:50:31 08/20/2001 Thanks for the vote of confidence Neil. By the way...just so you all know...John and I have spoken via e-mail and had just started off on the wrong foot. If he is indeed in the business he says he is, then perhaps we (he and I) can develope a good relationship. You never can have too many friends and/or connections! By the way...I don't think I have seen it posted, but I guess it could be...somewhere. What is Joey's age? Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| steve himes |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7915.html Posted At 05:51:03 08/21/2001 Well, unfortunately the real topic here has been completely avoided. Too bad, I was curious to see the outcome of this from some of you guys who've been doing this for many years. Steve |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
7928.html Posted At 15:10:57 08/21/2001 Steve, There are two or three other posts on here other than mine about the origional topic. I would just be careful when doing business with Exotic Jungle...if your animals die in transit, it is very clear in speaking with Jay, and on his website, that you will be S.O.L. Otherwise, you will get what you are supposed to get, but being that most of his animals are imports, I wouldn't count on them being all that nice looking. A while back, I got what was supposed to be a really nice pair of Jameson's Mambas. They showed up and the female was very pretty, but the male had a messed up nose that was not to be desired, but had started healing slowly by the time I got rid of them. Also, the male bush viper that I spoke of earlier...that one was pretty bad too, and I was told then, as well, that these were PERFECT and feeding. Just be careful. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
8021.html Posted At 19:11:32 08/22/2001 Slam me for what? Disagreeing with someone's business ethics that you like? I really don't know what you could slam me for. It's ashame that I use this board for what it's intended for, and you want to slam me for it just because you like the person I said something about. All you have to say is that you disagree, and that Jay is a good person in your opinion...not slam me. That is how it is supposed to work. By the way...do you have $400 that you could send me...although I don't have anything to send you back? ;) Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
8023.html Posted At 19:17:19 08/22/2001 It appears, here, that the only person that slammed me was John, and that was a false accusation. All this uproar was caused by something that is not true. Any of you can follow up on it if you like, but it was a FALSE accusation. My HOTs no longer stay with me as of a few weeks ago. So, there is no other "slam" on me except that...if you want to call a false claim a slam. If you don't want to business with me just because I had a problem with someone you like, Frank, that's your right, but I do not misrepresent any of my animals, nor would I hold back the truth to sell them. I have lost deals up front because I was honest, and didn't want it to come back in my face if the other party received the animal(s), and they weren't what I said they were. I hope YOU'LL agree. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| todd wuest |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
8257.html Posted At 15:08:41 08/26/2001 although i guess it doesn't matter that much at this point, i thought i'd pipe in and mention that i saw patrick yesterday and he didn't have any venomous at his place. everything venomous was staying with a friend of his near quinland, tx |
| Josh Marich |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
8401.html Posted At 00:14:02 08/30/2001 I just happened to read all of this an I wanted to throw my .02 in. I was a Deputy Sheriff for 2 years and I think I would probably have been killed if I used tactics like him. Geeze, professionalism. |
| Pat DelTurco |
Re: Jay Eaton @ Exotic Jungle...Bad Business Ethics...
9187.html Posted At 22:24:42 09/18/2001 I have confirmed that John Hughs (or any alternate spelling) IS NOT an officer with the Texas Dept. of Wildlife |