| Author | Subject: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........ |
| Bluegrass Herp - Kris Mays | Posted At 21:41:46 08/21/2001
First to the webslave....I'm sorry this doesn't exactly conform to the rules, but I don't want to cast a shadow on someone's name without getting feedback first. I've always respected this person, but I feel like I'm getting treated very unfairly in this deal. I believe I am right in my opinion, but want to see what others have to say on the subject. The dilemma: I Paypalled $825 for a trio of pythons that I wanted to add to my collection. I've dealt with this person in the past and have never had a problem. It just so happened another individual that lives near me was also acquiring a group of animals from this person. I told him to cut on shipping he could send all the animals at one time. He agreed and was to ship via Delta Air Cargo. He shipped the animals Priority 2nd Day, which allows Delta 48 hours to deliver the package. The package arrived within this time frame and was not damaged. The box that the animals were packed in was 12"L x 12"W x 18"H with no vent holes. It was styrofoam lined and in good condition. We immediately thought the box was too small, but remained hopeful. Inside the box we found 2 of the pythons on the very bottom bagged together. Another of my pythons was directly on top of them with 2 other bags of ball pythons. There were also 6 baby ball pythons in a medium deli cup that had been opened by the other snakes. I guess what I'm trying to show is that there were WAY too many animals in this small box. There was ZERO extra space in the box. It was very tight. The 2 pythons on the bottom were dead. I personally believe they suffocated under the weight of the other animals. Luckily, everything else survived. I emailed the seller as soon as I got home. I had one reply that asked if I made a claim with Delta. I informed him that Delta had absolutely no liability as the package was delivered on time and without damage. I requested that the money for the 2 dead animals be refunded to my Paypal account. This would have been an easy thing for him to do as the funds had not cleared and couldn't have been withdrawn yet. (There was no way to cancel the Paypal transfer.) The seller, as written on his site, GUARANTEES live arrival. Upon speaking to him today he made the point that it also says there are no refunds, only credit or replacement of animals. This is stated under his 100% Satisfaction clause. My problem is simple. I paid $825 for 3 animals of which I only received 1. I believe I am entitled to a refund for the dead animals. I spoke with him and would like to work out something with his available animals, but he has nothing I'm in the market for and is too high on the only animal I'd be willing to take. I would understand his credit or replacement clause if I received the animals and wasn't satisfied. I could return his animals and I'd have credit. However, I never received what I paid for. If I were to purchase anything else that could not be replaced and it arrived destroyed, my money would be refunded. I honestly believe he should refund my money. I paypalled the funds to him in good faith and the animals arrived dead. I had nothing to do with their death and I think if they were in a larger box they would have been fine. Please give me your input. Kris |
| Bob Fisher---Hanover Herps |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7948.html Posted At 23:38:26 08/21/2001 Shipping animals always has it's problems. It definately sounds like they were sent in an inadequate container, and should have been in something bigger. It baffles my mind when people risk the lives of the very animals they sell ( and are supposed to like ) to save a little on shipping. You get my vote on your money back. If I were the shipper (they would have been shipped differently), you would already have your money! Just my opinion. Bob |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7951.html Posted At 00:28:43 08/22/2001 if he does not want to refund your money then he needs to replace the animals.....I mean, he needs to get you whatever you ordered. If you ordered two breeder jungles or whatever....then that should be what you get. If he can't provide what you ordered then you get refund. Oh there we go....He needs to either send you animals you bought or give you your money back. Because you did not receive the animals.......then you did not buy anything. Receiving dead animals is the same as not receiving at all. Just my opinion. I would get you the animals or give you your money back. |
| John Hedger |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7952.html Posted At 00:33:03 08/22/2001 Kris,I would have to agree with Bob. The guy should have owned up to the possibility that his packing and lack of adequate ventillation with so many snakes in one box at least "could have" killed those pythons. As far as his policy goes...I hate that credit thing! I can understand how it saves his business from going into the hole,especially when dealing with a lot of inexperienced kids, etc., but why should a customer who obviously is unhappy with a deal have to go through the whole thing all over again with the same dealer and choose an animal he most likely didn't want in the first place just to get his credit. A similar thing happened to me with an pretty well known established dealer who, in the past, has often put a long list of available animals on the Kingsnake Boa classifieds (and, by the way,has gotten very good "buddy" references on this forum!). I inquired about a bright yellow amazon tree boa he had on his list. The guy seemed very jaded and lethargic about answering my questions about the animal. I had kindof a wierd feeling about the whole thing but decided to go ahead and buy it anyway. (Of course the guy's attitude toward me perked up when he recieved my check!)Keep in mind I am not a picky customer or hard to please! However, the snake was NOT what I would call a bright yellow as he had advertised on his list. It was more what I would call a dirty, orangish yellow. I emailed him about my dissatisfaction and he informed me his policy was to offer "credit only" replacement. I decided right then I would just not ever deal with this guy in the future! I didn't call him. I haven't even checked out his list anymore (which I don't see so often these days.Hmm?). I thought about reporting it on this list, but everyone seemed to love this guy so much when his name came up once before, I thought "Why rock his boat, it really wasn't that much money." I actually ended up liking the amazon quite alot, even named him Ol' Yeller,but he never, ever ate for me and eventually died. Why was I not surprised?? John Hedger |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7956.html Posted At 01:18:57 08/22/2001 Kris, I feel your pain! As you can see from my posting below, I had the exact same thing happen to me. I feel exactly as you do. If the animals arrive dead, it is as if no animals arrived AT ALL!!! You deserve compensation, unless stated up front that live arrival cannot be guaranteed...as I have stated in some situations before (ex. customer chosing their own shipping method that they want me to ship to them). It really surprises me when the receipt says "Live Arrival Guarantee Only!", and I wasn't compensated...nor you were! I mean...why don't people put on their websites and receipts, "LIVE ARRIVAL GUARANTEE...ONLY UNDER PERFECT CONDITIONS!". And then, they need to put, "AND EVEN THEN YOU WILL BE LUCKY TO GET ANYTHING WORTH WHAT YOU JUST LOST YOUR MONEY (OR ANIMALS) ON!" That is my philosophy! Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Joey Wright |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7958.html Posted At 02:13:37 08/22/2001 This all goes back to a point I've been trying make recently about some post being unnecessary deleted and the censorship of herpers opinions by the webslave. For those of you who don't agree with my opinion or don't know what I'm talking about follow threw with me. in the above post John Hedges makes a very strong point that most people don't take into consideration. I'm referring to John's statement: "I thought about reporting it on this list, but everyone seemed to love this guy so much when his name came up once before, I thought "Why rock his boat, it really wasn't that much money."" this statement was referring to a deal he felt wasn't right with a well respected dealer BUT didn't post negative feedback because this guy was well respected. John you probably in all truthfulness did the best thing for yourself by letting the matter go, If you had posted negative feedback the reptile "clique" would of came down on you hard. I've noticed similar situations like this several times in the past. Thats were they name calling and slurs and attacking each others reputation come in, Next thing you know the original person posting is on trial and not the individual who messed up. Then in steps the webmaster who decides this person is starting unnecessary problems and all of a sudden the message is deleted. So were is the justice, This person has gotten away Scot free and the person who was done wrong has his name damaged. These post again both respected and none respected dealers need to be left up for us to both base our opinions. All this deleting of post that have opinions that attack certain people that are in the "clique" need to stop. There needs to be an unbiased website with a fair webmaster who lets everyone speak the opinion no matter what there standing is in the reptile community. As to address the matter at hand weather kris should get his money back or not. In my personal opinion YES, he should get his money back, The package was not packed well and it's obvious NOT delta's fault. The seller should take responsibility for his mistake BUT BUT BUT... and i don't agree with this BUT the seller did TERMS of sale posted and I'm assuming you agreed to his terms when you purchased the animals. If he does have a live arrival guarantee then he is responsible but as you noted his terms are NO refunds only credit or replacement then he has you in a clause. Legally he only has to credit you. I would try to work something out and avoid doing business with him again. Situation like this are tricky and I'd advise anyone in the future to make sure that they clearly understand what is going to happen if for some reason a sell goes wrong in the future. Do like you would if your buying a car and READ ALL THE SMALL PRINT. |
| Michael Tashman |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7966.html Posted At 08:12:47 08/22/2001 Well in the hopes that the shipper that Kris bought the animals from has a heart, i'll voice my opinion here, and say that they animals were not packaged adequately, delta was not at fault or responsible for their demise, so the fault lies with the shipper. You should get refunded your money or credited. Maybe something this person breeds or has available at a later time would be of interest to you. I have no problem siding with you here Kris, i hope this works out for you in the end. |
| Paul Snyder |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7968.html Posted At 09:14:43 08/22/2001 This is not only bad business practices for not offering/agreeing to a full refund of the two dead animals. It goes way beyond that in my mind, I believe this is cruelty to animals! How long has this guy been shipping LIVE animals? Does he not know that all terrestrial beings need air? How would he like to breath the same air in a confined space for 48 hours? I would report this guy to the authorities. Maybe I'm over reacting, but I have ABSOLUTELY NO sympathy or understanding for anyone who blatently packs animals so tightly to save on a larger box charge or to avoid sending two packages for better ventilation and space. Just my 4 cents... Paul Snyder Norman, OKLAHOMA |
| Terri Langley |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7972.html Posted At 10:16:24 08/22/2001 contact his locale humane society. send them the box along with a notarized statment. that is what they are there for. they get great pleasure prosecuting people like him. with fines and court time and the possiblity of being shut down maybe he will think about the fact he is responsible for there deaths. hopefully no other animals will lose there lives because he wanted to save a few dollars. |
| Ken Casstevens |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7976.html Posted At 11:14:40 08/22/2001 It really astounds me when people do business like this. My first thought on this is why in the hell anyone would ship any reptile anything other than overnight. That goes way beyond just bad business. THAT'S JUST PLAIN STUPID!!!! He didn't have to save anything on shipping, because the shipping charges were being paid by the buyer. I'm sure that Kris would've paid a little more for a bigger box if that would have helped the snakes to get there safely. Secondly- if he does have you in a clause then he should at least try to searh around for some suitable replacements. If he can't find any then a refund would certainly be in order. He can't expect someone to just wait until he might get something in in the future that would qualify for a replacement. I wish you luck with this, Kris, and I also wish you would post his name so everyone can steer clear of this "bad guy". |
| Bluegrass Herp - Kris Mays |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
7979.html Posted At 11:41:15 08/22/2001 I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I fealt that since they were dead when they arrived, I was entitled to a refund. I still believe I'm right. :-) I'm happy to say that the seller and I were able to work it out between us. I respect this seller and hope to do business in the future. I will insist the Live Arrival means just that and if they arrive dead I will be refunded. Also, Jay at Exotic Jungle emailed me and has apparently been receiving emails asking if this deal involves him. It does not. I've never dealt with him and this situation has nothing to do with him. Thanks again for your input. It's always nice to be able to get a different perspective on a situation to keep everything honest and unbiased. Kris |
| Jim Elliott |
Re: Reptiles need to be shipped same day> more
8017.html Posted At 18:48:14 08/22/2001 When shipping reptiles in Aug you need to ship them priority same day, I worry when the flight is late even when shipping same day! I always find out how the animals are being shipped and make sure the box is insulated and the proper size, you would not believe how some people will ship reptiles if you dont double check that they know what they are doing. Regards, BigJim |
| brian |
how cheap can you be?
8028.html Posted At 20:06:19 08/22/2001 why would you send over a thousand dollars worth of animals 2nd day air when you are splitting the shipping with someone else? |
| Joey Wright |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
8029.html Posted At 20:10:12 08/22/2001 Glade to hear things worked out for you Kris, The only thing still questioning in my mind is if your Great reputation had anything to do with it, i wonder if this individual would of been so cooperative with a no so well know person of a younger person? I'd still be careful of this person if anyone knows who it is, The fear of being exposed by a well know source may of mad him a nice guy this time, But that doesn't mean he wont' try the same thing again on some one else. Just something to think about. I know Kris probably won't let it be know who it was cause the deal seams to be going clear for him now, But we should all be told so we can protect ourselves in the future, But since we don't know people be careful about shipping terms and live arrival guarantees so the same thing doesn't happen to you. |
| Geneva Schultz |
Re: A Potentially VERY BAD Deal........
8072.html Posted At 13:16:05 08/23/2001 I had almost the same problem. I too will keep this person's name to myself. I purchased $825 in snakes through paypal. He was to ship the next day (Wednesday) because he was going out of town. He did not ship. I finally got a hold of him on the next Tuesday. His computer was down, so he claimed he couldn't ship the snakes because he had no way of knowing if the money was in his paypal account or not. (I would have felt the same way) So, I gave him all the neccesary info from paypal to prove the money was there. Ok. So he'll ship the next morning, right? No. He had to work and he was going out of town again. So, I was now up to 3 weeks with no snakes and $825 in the hole so to speak. My partner finally talked to him, and I finally got the snakes. The 5+ foot albino rats were packed in the 4" diameter plastic cups and the others were also packed in too little containers (in my opinion). No one was dead, but they were all VERY uncomfortable. With all the hassle, I doubt I will ever do business with him again, but with his good rep from just about everyone I talked to, I think this incident was a fluke, so I will keep his name to myself. Thanks. Geneva Schultz JVS Snakes |