| Author | Subject: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!! |
| Brandon Osborne | Posted At 17:04:33 08/23/2001
Last week before going to Daytona, I sent a pair of axanthic brooks kings out. Weather was in the low 80's, which is just fine for shipping. Both snakes were eating and doing great, not to mention they were the best looking pair I had. I sent the snakes out monday evening for tuesday morning arrival. I tell everyone I ship to to let me know when the shipment arrives and if there are any problems. This guy emails me sunday night and says the female arrived a little sluggish and then died sunday. He wants me to replace a $200 animal after having it for six days. Everyone that has done business with me knows I'm not going to send out less than perfect animals. What should I do? I don't think I'm at fault here. Should I eat another female snake or just say SOL. Take into consideration that he had the snakes for six days before trying to contact me. I even gave him my cell phone number because I was leaving for Daytona wed. morning. PLEASE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE!!!!! BRANDON OSBORNE |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8081.html Posted At 17:14:33 08/23/2001 I don't know what to think of this. I have a 2 - 3 day time limit for complaints.....after that it is up to the buyer. The reason I have this is because I only send out healthy animals.....and if they die or whatever after three days......I know it is not my fault. But on the same token..I also see the customers point of view...because I am one. If I have a snake for only 6 days and I keep it the way it is supposed to be kept...then it just dies. then I would be mad And last but not least......you did not get any communication that it arrived sluggish until six days later. What I would do is have them ship me the dead snake.....to make sure it is really dead. Then I would tell them that they would have to pay for shipping since they waited so long. If they don't pay for shipping or don't send me the dead snake. I send no replacement. Someone once tried to tell me I sent them a dead snake...I told them to send the dead snake back to me. I never heard from them again. About a month later I saw a classified that belonged to him.....he was selling the "dead" snake |
| Dawn Zielinski |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8086.html Posted At 17:45:19 08/23/2001 Really? So if the snake doesn't die within 72 hours, it could NOT possibly be a faulty snake that you sent? You're psychic? It's VERY possible to send a sick animal without realizing it is simply because the snake just STARTED having issues. Now I completly agree- if you're not contacted IMMEDIATLEY, that's an issue. And I totally agree with the shipping of the dead animal back and paying for shipping again.. But I do NOT agree with the thought that every snake you ever send out is in immaculate health. That's physically impossible. That would be like saying that birth defects never existed or no snakes ever got ill due to heriditary/environmental issues. This is why I refuse to buy an animal from a breeder who won't give a month's guarantee. |
| Tim Bowles |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8088.html Posted At 18:24:14 08/23/2001 A month Guarantee. Never heard of such a beast in the herp biz. You must not buy many animals. Who do you know that has a month? |
| Liz and Matt |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8092.html Posted At 18:51:48 08/23/2001 Hi Brandon, Well, the 6 days w/o contact seems a little sketchy, and I'd say that's a problem. Perhaps you could have him send back the snake in question, and maybe give him a break on another animal. Honestly - I don't think he's entitled to a full refund. Good Luck, Liz (Elizabeth Craig) |
| Ciro Spina |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8094.html Posted At 19:31:27 08/23/2001 I would ask for the snake back and replace it at half the cost. That is my guarantee at my store. Ciro |
| Ron Radloff |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8097.html Posted At 20:35:06 08/23/2001 Brandon, I wish there was a better way to determine whos at fault. I had a very healthy pair of Womas, I traded them, sent them in excellent condition. I received a call upon arrival that they arrived a little on the warm side. The person then said he immediately cooled them off and would keep me posted. I said please do, a few days later he calls and said both snakes are wheezing and blowing bubbles. I know they were healthy and what came to mind was did he cause this by cooling them down incorrectly?? He is a knowledgeable herper so I told him to keep me posted. He took them for tests and some antibiotics were prescribed. It has been a few months and the male is still iffy while the female is improving. I'm going to stand behind these snakes so my name doesn't get tarnished but in my heart I know they were healthy animals.I was told that healthy appearing animals can become very sick very rapidly when stressed, such as shipping might do. Sometimes we have to swallow our pride or take a chance at being blackballed. Enough of my whining, I think your not at fault but only you can decide whats the right course of action for you. Ron |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8099.html Posted At 20:48:50 08/23/2001 A months guarantee. Which breeder gives a months guarantee? Thanks you for the money...Here is the snake. Remember you have only one month in which to kill it. |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8100.html Posted At 20:57:15 08/23/2001 Upon reading my post it sounded kinda bad. I apologize if I offended anyone.......But it is basically true. And Dawn even if you hate to think that all animals I send out are in perfectly good health you can ask the people I have sent to. Anyway....Brandon....you can hold off on the matter......Decide once you get the dead snake back......but until then it might really still be alive. Also...even if the wheather is perfect. it might not have been perfect where ever it is that it happened to pass through. |
| steve barringer |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8102.html Posted At 21:09:37 08/23/2001 i've gotten baby chondros from brandon that weren't even feeding yet (they were sold to me as non feeders) and they were better animals than i've gotten from several others. i say sol!! i saw some of brandon's colubrids at the daytona show and all were outstanding healthy animals. if i kept colubrids i would have definately went to brandon for some. brandon, it was great meeting you at the show, hope you did well. steve |
| Russ Bates |
Been there done that
8104.html Posted At 21:29:24 08/23/2001 Brandon, nice meeting you at the show. I just had this same incident yesterday on a much cheaper snake I produced. I sold a local pet store 3 perfect, fat creamsicle corns and they were glad to get them. The next morning the owner calls and said "Russ, one of the snakes is dead what are you going to do". I was pissed at first because I knew their inexperienced staff cooked it but I can't prove it and definately not for 30$. I gave the guy back his money and assured him that my job pays me well, I don't need to make money off of snakes but because it is a hobby and they do breed, I sell the babies. I really love my snake collection! Bottom line is I sold him 3 very healthy snakes and his store killed one (my opinion). He got his cash back and he was happy. 200$ is alot more but just do what you feel is right.....six days is a long time to have a snake and then claim foul. |
| Patrick Hughett @ North Texas Reptiles |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8107.html Posted At 22:22:14 08/23/2001 I usually give a 48 hour guarantee and I think that's a little long myself. Anything could happen from the time the animal arrives to the time it dies. The person could be keeping it too hot, too cold, fed it something too large, dropped it and it broke some ribs, etc. Anything could happen after this animal arrives. 6 days? No Way!!! I wouldn't do it. Patrick Hughett North Texas Reptiles |
| Brandon Osborne |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8108.html Posted At 22:33:28 08/23/2001 Thanks everyone for their input. I have tried to email him back. That was tuesday, and no response. I will say this agian. Why would I send my best looking hatchlings to someone so they can die and I would have to replace them. I don't mind replaceing animals if I know it was my neglagence. I did it last winter with $1000 worth of animals. Now talk about eating you pride. I don't think I owe this guy anything, but I will give him the benifit of the doubt. I can't give a full replacement. I will ask for the dead snake back and go from there. And as far as sending healthy snakes, yes I guess I am psychic. My snakes are a true passion of mine and they get nothing short of the best. I am good for my word. |
| Paul Snyder |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8116.html Posted At 23:43:57 08/23/2001 You don't owe him anything accept your condolensces on losing his new snake. I think that's a terrible loss as I get really excited with every new snake I acquire. But as far as being liable after 24-48 hours, you're not. You can't guarantee life! What you can almost guarantee is that it left your facility with a clean bill of health, a necropsy can often determine that. Anyway, I'm sure it's unsettling for both of you involved, but I don't think you owe anyone anything more than a little sympathy. Paul Snyder Norman, OK |
| Dawn Zielinski |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8118.html Posted At 00:43:46 08/24/2001 Upon reading my post it sounded kinda bad. I apologize if I offended anyone.......But it is basically true. And Dawn even if you hate to think that all animals I send out are in perfectly good health you can ask the people I have sent to. (copy + paste) Why on earth would I hate the idea of you sending out only healthy animals? That's silly. I don't wish UNHEALTY pets on anyone. My point was that even if you're the #1 breeder in the WORLD things can happen. To say ALWAYS and NEVER is pushing limits, don't you think? |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8119.html Posted At 00:59:28 08/24/2001 Dawn....Okay you do have a very good point.........as far as things can happen during shipment...yes. but I can always guarantee the animals leave my front door in perfect health. After they have stepped out my front door then things can happen. I still stand by what I say. I send out only healthy animals all the time..... Sorry it is just a pride thing. It would totally hurt my pride and my feelings if anyone ever decided to accuse me of sending an unhealthy one. These are pets....and breeding them just gives me something to do. It is a pleasant hobby. some guy tried it....but I was not to hurt to much because I knew he was lying.....and it helped to make me feel better when a month later I saw the supposed dead snake being sold. TO EVERYONE: thank you for your posts. I know this is a good guy bad guy forum...and we are really not supposed to be going into great lenghty discussions. but it is nice to get other people point of view. Specially when everyone is being an adult about it. This forum has greatly improved from what it was a few days ago. Thank You |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8156.html Posted At 09:17:26 08/24/2001 Dawn, where are you buying animals???? I've been doing this for over ten years and have never heard of ANYONE offering that kind of guarantee. Brian |
| Andrew Potts |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8162.html Posted At 10:22:29 08/24/2001 Hello, Sorry about that last post, don't know what happend. Now on to the point at hand. It seems the prevailing attitude/thought amongst most people who sell reptiles is that it's always(or almost always)the buyers fault whenever a problem occurs. Needless to say that is a bad attitude to have. You should ask him to send the dead animal back. If he deosn't then don't replace. If he does, replace the animal. No if, ands or buts. Thats what i would have done. I would have never even given it a second thought. Especially considering the time frame involved. I have such a small number of problems, considering the volume of animals that i sell both at the retail and the wholesale level, I just replace the animal. By the way i offer a 45 day guarantee on all c.b. reptiles i sell at the retail level. Wholesale is normally a couple of weeks but thats not engraved in stone. I take it on a case by case situation. Now depending on the situation i may ask for the animal back, but that really depends on several variables. Like cost, how long the buyers been doing business with me, was it received in a timely fashion, did they report thier concerns in a timely manner. But i always replace if they are willing to ship or bring the animal back. As i said earlier, i sell a high volume of reptiles so the occasional problem is just percentages and its going to happen with living animals. With that in mind, i will always give the benefit of doubt to the buyer. It just seems natural to me that there is a certain amount of risk involved with selling live animals and the seller incures that risk, not the buyer. Again no ifs, ands, or buts. Now i know some poeple are going to reply with all kinds of excuses as to why they don't do this or do that when a problem occurs. Thats fine and if thats the way you conduct business good for you. As mentioned earlier we as sellers should give the benefit of the doubt to our customers if and when a problem occurs. Even now those buying reptiles are starting to demand that sellers be willing to stand behind thier animals beyond just live arrival. It's the natural evolution of a growing industry where customer staisfaction hasn't been a priority. With that growth comes stiffer compitetion and sellers willing to do what others might not. Do whatever it takes to make the customer happy. In closeing i would like to say that how you conduct yourself when selling animals is up to you. Just remember there are those who don't have a million and one excuses as to why they won't do whatever it takes to make the customer happy if a problem occurs. Oh, one last thing, but it's a big thing that just makes me so mad. Those who say they are not responsible for losses due to carrier error. Anyone or business who has that policy is to be avoided at all cost. I guarantee you that these people or businesses who have that policy are not up to the challenge of selling and shipping live animals. Well thanks for the time. Ciao. Andrew Potts |
| Carlos Lahitte |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8164.html Posted At 11:19:13 08/24/2001 Andrew. Good words, that is a professional businessman talking. Give them some time and all those breeder or broker that don't care about customer services will be either disappear or have to change their way to conduct business |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8174.html Posted At 16:25:45 08/24/2001 That's great Kat. I did not know. I will have to seriously think about following his example................and andrew example too then again.......a lot of things can go wrong in a month. Well if the person buying is very knowledgable in the keeping of the reptile....then yeah. but if it is someone who just bought because they thought they were cool....then replacing is probably not an option andrew. everything you say I agree with. also we might have a guarantee for 24 hours to 2 months....but in the end it is on a case by case basis |
| Rich Zuchowski |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8175.html Posted At 16:28:05 08/24/2001 Yes, I do offer a 1 month guarantee. But I'm not at the top of the heap in this class at all. Don Soderberg (South Mountain Reptiles) offers this guarantee: "If you are dissatisfied for any reason after 7 (seven) months, you may return your animal for a replacement." I don't think it is at all unreasonable to expect an animal to show good health after 1 month in the customer's hands. I know there is a lot of opporunity for a guarantee like this to be abused, but so far that has not been the case at all. Good healthy animals should remain so after 1 month. If they don't, then perhaps you are selling the wrong kind of animals or to the wrong people. |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Delima!!! Please help and give your opinions!!
8269.html Posted At 20:52:54 08/26/2001 Wow, I've bought from both parties above and never knew they had that kind of guarantee. I think it's great. I personally would not ask for my money back on an animal I had had in my possesion for over a week. In fact, I don't think I've ever asked for my money back on any animal, and I've had them die within 24 hours (imported chameleons and a boa I just bought at the expo). I feel that, in most cases, I should, as the buyer, know enough about what I am buying to judge whether or not it is healthy at the time of purchase. Once I take possesion, I don't think it's fair to hold the seller responsible for my actions. When I sell and there is a problem I handle every case on an individual basis. Kid with their first corn snake, puts it on corn cob bedding even after I told them not to, I would replace at my cost. Experiened handler, warned that the animal was a fresh import, did not have fecals done, sorry they should have know better. A student of mine, first snake, starts out great after she had it about 5 weeks it starts to regurg, a sibling of that snake still in my care starts to do the same thing, I treat both snakes, both die, I replace her snake for free, (actually at a loss because of the drugs and time involved). Every case is different plain and simple. I think it is both reckless and expensive to offer an UNCONDITIONAL guarantee,but that just my opinion. Rich and Andrew, I'd like to pose a question to you. How much would an animal that cost you $10 to produce or buy, sell for on your list? Please include in your answer the cost you'd have to build in for your guarantee, that includes the extra cost you add for shipping insurance (I think that's how you put it Rich). Again, I think it's wonderful that you guys can offer that kind of guarantee, but at the same time I think it's important for the public to know that one way or the other they are paying for a guarantee they will most likely never use. Brian |