| Author | Subject: Paul Miller...BAD GUY! |
| Paul Mitzelfelt | Posted At 19:32:12 09/03/2001
After viewing his Biaks up for auction, I decided to just e-mail him for a set price. He returned my e-mail with an offer of 300 shipped for one biak. I said I would think about it, and get back with him. I did, and sent an offer of 275 shipped seems how they were still sitting at 200 with no reserve, I figured I might as well try to save money. I would feel quite the fool if I paid 300 and bidders got one for 200+shipping. He declined my offer, so I IMMEDIATELY responded with an acceptance to his 300 shipped offer. He NEVER responded. I then won the auction at 280 plus shipping. Which would come to 315 total. I then sent him an e-mail which also discussed my feelings of how he didn't have the courtesy to respond to my acceptance offer. He then responds with not wanting to do business with me because of my attitude. Think of it what you will, but I accepted his offer, he chose not to respond, I won the auction, he found a way to back out of it. I have e-mails to show what has happened, and will post them as needed. The one below is my response to winning the auction, and his response to it. You may have good things to say about Paul Miller, and thats fine, but he screwed me in my opinion, and I thought people should know the two sides to every story. Subj: Re: Biaks on auction Date: 9/3/2001 6:27:02 PM Central Daylight Time From: CORALLUS@msn.com (PAUL MILLER) To: Padakaas@aol.com How about I dont send you anything! I dont have to do business with someone that has an attitude such as yours. You are the one acting unprofessional. ----- Original Message ----- From: Padakaas@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 7:04 PM To: CORALLUS@msn.com Subject: Re: Biaks on auction In a message dated 8/31/2001 10:58:04 PM Central Daylight Time, CORALLUS@msn.com writes: << They are cb and feeding on pinkies. The end date on the auction should be 3 days not months. I will sell you one for 300 shipped to your door. If you are interested let me know. >> First off, thanks for responding to my "I'll take it for 300" e-mail last night. That is highly appreciated. I hope you can sense the sarcasm there. Well, I bid and won, for 280. With your 35 shipping to my door that comes to 315. A mere 15 dollars more than your original offer, which I accepted by the way. But, still I find it rather unprofessional of you to make an offer, get it accepted then not respond. So, send me your mailing address so I can send out payment. I expect a snake EXACTLY as you represented it, and anything less will be made known to anyone I can let know. I feel screwed in the sense that you didn't have the courtesy to respond to an acceptance e-mail which you KNOW you read previous to the end of auction. Look forward to hearing from you ASAP, and look more forward to seeing what I hope is a Captive Born Biak green tree python that feeds on pinkie mice. Thanks again Paul, your "professional" approach goes noticed. Take Care! Paul Mitzelfelt |
| Paul Miller |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8632.html Posted At 20:38:43 09/03/2001 Give it a rest I dont like how you tried to conduct the deal and thats it. You first acceopted the deal for 300 then emailed me offering 275, I rejected it and decided I didnt want to do business with you. PERIOD Thats the whole story nothing more to say. Im not going to email you back after you tried to low ball me. I think I have that right. Paul Miller |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8634.html Posted At 21:05:45 09/03/2001 Excuse me there Paul, never accepted your offer of three hundred PRIOR to counter offering you 275. I accepted your terms AFTER you rejected mine. And now even though I have WON the auction, you are trying to get out of selling me the animal. This alone should show everyone what type of person you are. And as I already told you, if you didn't want to accept 300 after I so called low balled you, you should've had the courtesy to let me know that as well. But you say you just chose to not e-mail me at all? Thats good business, and when did making offers become low balling? Your snakes were sitting at 200 dollars when I offered 275 so that isn't low balling in my book. If you ever want to buy anything let me know, since you don't counter offer, I will gladly give you a price. Your wrong in that I won and your not holding up your end. PERIOD! Regardless of your inappropriate actions before auction ended in not responding to my acceptance of your offer. You offered, I accepted-you ignored-I won-you weaseled your way out of it. If no one can see your ability to be a horrible person to deal with, I feel for them. Respond when you have a LEGITAMITE reason for screwing me! Thanks again! |
| Joel Holloman |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8636.html Posted At 22:23:28 09/03/2001 I did a trade with Paul a couple of years ago and i sent a digital camera to him first and he sent the snakes just as stated. I think your email sounded pretty hostile from an unbiased person. I think if you would have left out all the sarcasm and the tone of "this snake better be what you said" and so on left a bad taste in his mouth and personally if i were Paul in this situation I wouldn't deal with you either to avoid all possiblities of something going wrong as I don't think you would've been happy with any snake he sent you. The guy didn't respond to an email i get that alot and move on not the end of the world. |
| Joel Holloman |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8637.html Posted At 22:25:25 09/03/2001 I did a trade with Paul a couple of years ago and i sent a digital camera to him first and he sent the snakes just as stated. I think your email sounded pretty hostile from an unbiased person. I think if you would have left out all the sarcasm and the tone of "this snake better be what you said" and so on left a bad taste in his mouth and personally if i were Paul in this situation I wouldn't deal with you either to avoid all possiblities of something going wrong as I don't think you would've been happy with any snake he sent you. The guy didn't respond to an email i get that alot and move on it's not the end of the world. |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8638.html Posted At 22:35:11 09/03/2001 Unfortunately for your friend, his opinion of my e-mail or myself matters not. I won the auction, it was his place to take my money regardless of whether he had a bad taste in his mouth or not. Do you not see why I would have a bad taste in my mouth to send such an e-mail to start with? And sorry if expecting what is represented seems like a bad thing to you. I just expect more from people I guess. Man, I never knew there where people out there that didn't care if animals were honestly represented. Tell me again, how its wrong to expect that? Didn't think you could do that-Thanks anyway! |
| Lucy Howard |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8641.html Posted At 23:00:24 09/03/2001 All I have to say is that I was under the assumption that a auction is a legally binding contract, that you cannot just break, because you don't like the way a email sounds... If that was the case, then online auctions would be one big great mess, with people backing out or changing their minds left and right...there are simple rules...if you sell, then mail the correct item out after payment, if you win the auction, then pay for the item and expect it to arrive as presented... Aside from that, I know Paul Mitzelfeld as a really nice guy, that takes the time to help other people out, whenever needed. I still hope this mess can be straightend out and both parties can resolve this matter... Lucy |
| Gil Bert |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8642.html Posted At 23:04:23 09/03/2001 To Paul the High Bidder, Sounds like he was trying to auction off a sick snake to an unwarry Herper, thats my opinion!!! I deal with sarcasm everyday but give the devil his due. When your the high bidder isn't that a contract? I once bid on a $.50 baseball card and my dad had a heartattack the next day. The next week some shit head is trying to ruin my credit and the FBI was calling my house. It cost me $20.00 for that card.... Not to mention the countless hours trying to straighten everything out. Paul, I saw the pictures of the snakes for sale and I think I saw thoes pictures somewhere else before.... Millers a looser!!!!!! I only hope he tries to buy something from me, I can't stand folks like that. MILLER don't let feelings get in the way of BUSINESS.... (You were probably lucky to get someone to bid on it!!!!) Gil Bert The Herpist |
| Joel Holloman |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8643.html Posted At 23:09:13 09/03/2001 Like i said i did a trade with him one time a couple of years ago so if that makes me his friend so be it. You posted and I replied. Most people with common sense don't deal with someone if they don't like what has happened. You smart email was bad on your part. If you wanted the snake you should have kept your sarcasm to yourself and kept your email to the point. Yes I expect certain things when i am going to buy something from another but if i don't get it i go about my business and spend my money elsewhere. And yes his opinion does matter as it is still his animals annd you get an attitude with him he can tell you where you can go and apparently he did. I didn't say anything about it being honeslty represented I said " in this situation I wouldn't deal with you either to avoid all possiblities of something going wrong as I don't think you would've been happy with any snake he sent you". That is all I will say about that and i guarentee you that if you snd a email to any other herpers out there they will kick you to the curb also. Have a good night and please take a deep breath it's a snake not the end of the world. You didn't get ripped off so chill. |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8644.html Posted At 23:25:46 09/03/2001 Oh yeah, Joel I don't really take advice from people that sell previously burned and scared animals. Maybe thats the way you guys do business though. Your right toghether I guess. Take Care! |
| Gil Bert |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8645.html Posted At 23:37:10 09/03/2001 Paul (High Bidder) What Joel is trying to say is Screw someone before they screw you. You didn't get ripped off, YET.... Poor Miller, the snake will probably die shortly and he will be the one without. |
| Steve Brockschmidt |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8647.html Posted At 23:43:06 09/03/2001 First off I don't know either party in this deal so this is an unbiased opinion. Paul Mitzelfelt I'm sure you are a nice guy like Lucy Howard said. But saying that do you think you would do buisnesss with a someone that sent you a hostile e-mail like you sent Paul Miller? As a breeder myself I know I would not have. I also think he would have honered the auction deal if you hadn't insulted him before the close of the auction. I can't say if Paul miller is a good/bad guy. As sellers we don't know the buyers and sometimes all we have to go on is the tone of someones e-mail. From the sound of yours I think he did the right thing to aviod future problems for himself. I also agree with Joel that you wouldn't be happy with any snake he sent you at this point. If you were a little more patient and understanding I have no doubt you would be expecting delivery of a baby GTP in the next couple of days. Relax, this is supposed to be fun, besides your not out any money, move on and buy one of the other 10 or so GTP's being advertised right now. "Can't we all just get along" Brock |
| Jordan Russell |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8648.html Posted At 23:47:12 09/03/2001 Hello Paul & Paul- I am not taking sides, but it seems like quite a witch hunt. I have been in Paul Miller's position before. (ie. Having to turn down a sale, due to me feeling the customer was either A.) Unfit B.) Someone who would obviously be a problem as well as many other reasons such as someone wanting me to ship illegally.) Granted none of the times I have turned down sales were in auctions. Which leaves a valid point in favor of Paul (PBM.)It was an auction which is a contract. For Gil to accuse Paul Miller of being a scum bag, and saying his animal will die shortly, because he turned down a sale... is well pure rubish.. Sorry for both of you that it got to this level... I have also been guilty of not getting back to customers on emails. I have a fairly busy schedule.. and I haven't been online to check emails more than 1-2 times a week lately, that doesn't mean I am going to screw you because it took me 2-3 days to get back to you though. PBM- I am not trying to say you were in the wrong, but waiting a day for him to reply then giving an email like that does seem a bit harsh... to me at least. Take care & best of luck to you both, Jordan |
| scott cook |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8652.html Posted At 05:39:06 09/04/2001 Well, I would contact the auction site and report it. It seems to me you put an item up for auction and a bid is put in and the auction ends you are obligated to sell it now. The rules are simple. No matter how much he didn't like your email he entered into an agreement with you and the auction company when he placed he item up for auction and you bid on it. Also if he places more items up for auction and someone bids I would let them know their bid means nothing to him. He will sell if he chooses too. I wonder if you had bid and then refused to pay would he be singing another tune, Probably! Good Luck. |
| John Hedger |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8653.html Posted At 06:20:36 09/04/2001 Paul M., I've dealt with Paul Miller many times and I know him to be a very intelligent guy who knows how to find and broker above average arboreals! I speak as his occasional customer here, not as his "buddy". I have seen Mr. Miller around on the Tree boa forums, etc. for over two years and have never heard of anyone having bad dealings with him. It's a shame, as a customer you didn't give him the common courtesy & respect afforded to any broker offering such a steal(!)on what I am sure are healthy chondros. Paul M. most probably did not breed the parents of those baby chondros himself -- he is primarily a broker. However, be assured, Paul Miller knows his arboreal boids and doesn't sell sick snakes! -- he has a good eye for quality in arboreals and I would be assured those snakes are healthy. It's too bad Paul Mitzelfelt, you have lost a good connection in Florida for handpicked arboreal boids! A lesson to be learned here I guess: Offer some courtesy & respect and do not insult the people who you are - or potentially will be - dealing with! John Hedger |
| Brian Conley |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8656.html Posted At 08:50:43 09/04/2001 PBM, I don't know either of you, but man, you really seem to have a short fuse! I would have to agree w/ some of the others above and think that Paul Miller was right in refusing the sale to you. He could send you the best damn snake in the world right now, and I still don't think you'd be happy, so why should he bother? Next time, have a little patience, it was Labor Day weekend, maybe he had other things to do besides sit at his computer to be at your beck and call. Just my opinion. Brian |
| Tom Chambers |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8657.html Posted At 10:01:09 09/04/2001 Don't know either party here......but how can you complain about being screwed when there was NEVER EVEN A TRANSACTION!? Online auction or not I would have refused to sell to PBM too. When someone makes statements about how I BETTER do something and it had BETTER be a certain way or they are gonna cause problems BEFORE a transaction is even AGREED to......then it is time to pass up that sale and move on to another customer. This guy sounds like you could have sent him a PAIR if Biaks that were FLAWLESS and he STILL would have found something to complain about because he felt somehow slighted in the bargaining process. I too, would have avoided the possible trouble in the first place, as it seems Mr. Miller has decided to do. And again PBM....if you feel screwed on the first part of this deal, and think Mr. Miller is dishonest somehow ....WHY IN THE BLOODY HECK WOULD YOU WANT TO CONTINUE THIS DEAL WHEN BIAKS ARE AVAILABLE FROM A DOZEN OR MORE GOOD SOURCES!? My .04 Peace - TC TC Reptile |
| Tony Basica |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8658.html Posted At 10:36:00 09/04/2001 Strange, I bid on the snakes and tried emailing the seller Paul but the email came back as a non-existent email addy, all I can say is that I'm glad I was outbid after getting that email ! BTW since the buyer Paul was the high bidder the seller is IN FACT legally bound to sell the animal, if it was the other way around the seller would be demanding his money !!! Read the auctions guidelines if you place an item up for auction you must be prepared to sell it to the high bidder unless you have a reserve. Unfortunately the buyer in this case didn't seem to handle things very professionally unfortunately in this case that doesn't legally create a presidence to break the contract of the auction. Just a 3rd parties observation all, not taking sides just a little side bar !!! Tony |
| Gary Schiavino |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8661.html Posted At 13:22:08 09/04/2001 I don't attach my name to many people, but I'll attach it to Paul Miller's anytime. PBM, I'm sorry things did not go well for you, but after dealing with Paul at least a dozen times, I have to say he is one of the most reasonable people I have ever done business with. Sounds to me as if you agreed to a price, and then "back peddled". That's your right, and I'm not slamming you for it. However, put some thought into your actions before you go and bad mouth someone publicly. Accept responsibility for your actions, perhaps then you won't be so angry at Paul. |
| Tom Burns |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8663.html Posted At 14:13:04 09/04/2001 Paul Mitzelfelt, I don't know you or Paul Miller. But I personally would have told you to stick your $315 up your ass after reading your "sarcastic" e-mail. Thanks for giving us all a glimpse of what to expect when dealing with you... |
| Joel |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8668.html Posted At 16:53:18 09/04/2001 PBM I stayed out of the rest but your stating i am selling a burned and scared animal is funny as if i had something to hide i would have not disclosed that and offered pictures for potential buyers to see. So you may continue to show everyone why Paul had enough sense not to deal with you. I guess you still have not calmed down so maybe your best bet would be to buy locally that way you don't have to deal with people who don't jump when you want them to. By the way PBM heat burns occasionally occur but none-the-less she has been traded to someone with full disclosure. Have a nice day and again try to calm down as stress is a killer. |
| Ritchie Luna |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8670.html Posted At 17:53:54 09/04/2001 It does not matter who made who mad....who burnt what snake. Who has bad animals who has a bad temper, who does not want to sell snakes. Or who has gotten snakes from who in the past.(what does that last part have anything to do with anything. None of that stuff matters. What matters is the fact that the auction is a legal and binding agreement. If it were the other way around....the seller would be demanding the money.....then putting a complaint in the persons profile. |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8674.html Posted At 18:51:40 09/04/2001 Day two:and so many thougths in my head! First off, let me say I didn't expect quite the reaction I have read so far. In re-reading my own e-mail after the auction, I STILL feel justified in voicing my unhappiness in Paul Millers decision to simply blow me off. I never back peddled anything and was never lacking courtesy at any point until he chose to ignore my acceptance of HIS offer. I did counter-offer his price which is pretty typical, then simply agreed to his price when he (with full right) did not accept my offer. Up to this point, things are a typical transaction. Then Mr. Miller chose to read my intent to give him his price and ignore me from there on out. I know he read the e-mail he was on line at the time the mail was sent, and it was sent less than 5 minutes after his e-mail saying he could not go as low as 275. Never did he say I had low balled him and upset him so I need to just go away. He only stated this as in my opinion an excuse for not being courteous enough to respond. Why do I think he didn't respond? I think he thought he would get more on the auction beings it ended in less than 24 hrs. Now is that professional on the part of the seller? Some of you tend to side with the seller here. Basically it seems because you feel I was rude. Take a look around at the web site here, its full of unhappy people commenting on there experience with a certain dealer. And back to counter offering. If an animal is sitting at 200 on an auction wouldn't you try to make an offer less than three hundred rather than watch 3 other people get one for 225 or ending price? I bet you would. Sorry you think thats not right, theres other countries you can go live in where you don't have rights to barter with people-go there! And like the last or next to last post, what does any of this matter now? I won a LEGALLY binding auction and he REFUSES to do the deal. The only thing I apologise for here is having the nerve to state my unhappiness with someone who is supposed to be held at a higher standard than the buyer-that being the Seller. Bottom line-whether any of you like me or not-Paul Miller put an animal up for auction, I won, he needs to take my money and send me an animal such as represented-and how any of you feel I wouldn't be happy with ANY animal is (how did Jordan put this-LOL) RUBISH! If I were sent a cb Biak that was feeding on pinkies and healthy, I would be sure to send Mr. Miller a thank you e-mail for being an upright guy. I would stand behind him as some of you are doing here if any problems arised in the future such as this. But, he is chosing to break a legal contract. And somehow some of you feel he has that right because he doesn't like me. WEll, BOO freakin HOO! Get over it, or get out of the "fun" hobby. Some of you think the reverse that I should just go on with life, turn it around. What if you were waiting on my legal promised money, and I told you I was backing out because I didn't like your e-mail stating something to this affect-You bid, you owe me money, its been a month, wheres my money, something better be done or I will have to report you to herpauction, etc. Think about it! And by god, yes people back out of common deals, theres no legal obligation to hold them to it, that happens, and it is a TOTALLY different case. Now, here's my honest personality for you quick to judge me. I am sorry to any of you that I offended with all of this, and if I haven't done anything wrong to you, I ask you not to hold this against me. Your are not personally involved and should keep it as such. Again, sorry for getting everyone else upset about my bad dealings with Paul Miller. Take Care! |
| Tim Bowles |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8675.html Posted At 19:04:38 09/04/2001 Let me get this straight. PBM tried to circumvent the auction by emailing Paul directly. How honest and fair to others truely bidding on the Biaks was that? PBM, IMO and mine only(worth 2 cents, if I"m lucky), that was destroying the spirit of the auction. Hence, negating the contractuality of it to you. As long as the auction was in effect, Paul had nothing with you, no matter what was said in the emails. Example, I bid at the last second of $350. Beating your bid. With the emails between you and the impression that you accepted an invalid offer of $300, what should Paul do then? You violated the auction and in essence tried to cheat me out of the snake. No matter how you look at it, you were wrong in emailing him and he had no obligation to those emails. Furthermore, Paul should just have ignored them totaly from the get go. Once they posted then thats that, its a bidding war open to all. PMB its real simple, you put him in a no win situation by emailing him then trying to lowball him further. By posting your actions here, you just admitted your a cheat. And yes I have done biz with Paul and will continue to do so. He has never misrepresented any animals to me. Plus a few well known herpers I like and respect have nothing but good to say about him. |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8676.html Posted At 20:03:10 09/04/2001 Your an idiot-I e-mailed him asking if the auction really ended in three months as he had it posted and what would he take for one. That becomes his choice to offer or not. Thats your basis for me being a cheat? They sat there unbid on at 200 dollars, at that point he should've been happy someone made an interest in buying one. SO, does him making a side offer make him a cheat? He's your friend, come on, what does it make him. If I am a cheat, so is your friend. You speak ignorance from the get go-Let me get this straight, I made an offer and I am a cheat, and your friend is a honest guy for refusing to sell regardless of your what if rhetoric? I won anyway so your what if's are completely lacking any valid entry here. And ALL of you need to get out of your heads I tried to low ball him. The animals sat at 200, he told me 300, so stupid me I counter offered, my god, PLEASE you no offering buyers come to me for anything you wanna buy. I have a burmese for 500, little high huh, but don't counter offer, because that is low balling???? Get real, I offered him 25 dollars less than his offer to me. Get F&&*ing real! I never back peddled anything, beings I NEVER told Miller that I would give him 300 until AFTER (read careful Miller buddies) AFTER he rejected 275. Did he dispute this fact? No, he didn't did he, why? because its the truth of the matter. So, friend if I am a cheat for trying to buy something, your buddies a cheat for trying to sell it when up for auction. Wasn't he cheating the other bidders????FUnny you left that out! You have pissed me off, you try to make me like the bad guy here with a totally stupid point of view. Good for the goose they say.....I quit! You can all back up your friend to the end, right or wrong, but I don't want to see any of your names up here complaining about ANY deals gone wrong for you! This is total crap, I mentioned in my initial post some of you probably had good dealings, and that is fine. Well heres the point, I didn't so not everyone does! That is my opinion, the truth, and the end of it. Your friend LEGALLY owes me a cb Biak. Who are the cheats here? Oh there goes my temper again. Well, thats fine because I am glad I have backbone and don't like to be screwed over by people whether it involves money or character. SEE YA! Think real hard about your ignorant post about a cheat-see the other side of the coin yet? It all comes around in the end! |
| Steve Schindler |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8684.html Posted At 21:51:25 09/04/2001 Paul owes you the snake for the total of $315.00 as the result of the auction. His offer to sell you the snake for $300.00 was not accepted. you refused that offer by making a counter offer. The minute you countered his $300.00 price with your offer of $275.00 that removed the $300.00 offer from the table. He was no longer obligated to sell you the snake for that price, even though you responded that you would take it for that price. I have a couple of other problems with this deal however that might be cleared up. First off, which auction site was it? second, if the duration of the auction was indeed stated as 3 months then it should not have been allowed on the auction (my opinion) also, if Paul was willing to sell the snake for a set price before the end of the auction I for one will not do bussiness with him. Once you place an item up for auction, you should be obligated to see it through until the end, and sell it for the highest bid (if no resever was stated) if you are not willing to do this you are not going to get any of my business (not that you care, but I am sure that there are many others who feel this way) Normally I would feel the same way toward anyone offering a set price before the end of the auction, but if the length of the auction was indeed 3 months I would look upon it as a classified add and not an auction. I side with PBM on this one even though the tone of his email would probably be enough to add him to my "don't deal with in the future list" I would send him the snake he won in the auction however. |
| M.Gandolfo |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8686.html Posted At 22:27:54 09/04/2001 PBM-- CALM DOWN! You ever hear of the expression "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar"? Granted, you're not looking to buy flies-- but it's your temper that put you in this position to begin with. If maybe you had apologized to Paul Miller about coming off a little strong in your "sarcastic" e-mail, he might have cosidered doing business with you-- instead of thinking that you're probably trouble because you're so quick to anger. You have some valid points. You won the bidding fair and square, and I would think that PM WOULD legally be obligated to sell them to you. So how badly do you want the snake? If it were me, I would be kissing up to PM, trying to get him to see that I'm really a nice guy and not looking for trouble. As far as the posts that he didn't like, is it possible that he read the second one first, where you accepted his $300 offer, and then read the earlier post which would have been below it, which contained the $275 offer? That's the only explanation that makes sense from PM's comment that you accepted $300 and then offered $275. This whole thing could be based on a misunderstanding. I know I'm not personally involved, but I'd like to see you guys work this out and complete the transaction. |
| Tom Chambers |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8687.html Posted At 23:08:43 09/04/2001 PBM posts "Paul Miller....BAD GUY!".....and then argues about why he should be able to do business with the guy he is bashing? Huh? There is some SERIOUSLY f'd up thinking going on here! It's like saying "I really think you are a lousy businessman and completely unfair but I want to spend my hard earned money with you instead of someone else." OOOOOOOOOOOOK TC |
| Gil Bert |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8691.html Posted At 23:58:43 09/04/2001 Good job Steve Schindler and M. Gandolfo. I see it the same way. I just wish we could all get along. We live our lives on a system of rules which should have been followed but weren't. This is why we are all here isn't. Hay I saw the auction on Herpauction.com and there were supposed to be 4 cb Biaks but I don't remember if all 4 were up for auction or that Miller was just trying to get rid of 4 of them... This one is better than a soap opera. Will Paul sell it? Will Paul buy it? Tune in next week, when the idiot Tom Burns (WHAT?) or Tom Chamber's says "Hay Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my ass." |
| M.Gandolfo |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8692.html Posted At 00:01:24 09/05/2001 I agree. It's just not conductive to doing business with someone. In fact, it's downright insulting. Which is why I suggested to PBM that he rethink his approach. |
| M.Gandolfo |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8694.html Posted At 00:13:30 09/05/2001 P.S.--I agree with Tom Chambers, not Gil Bert. Although his point of why we're all here is valid. |
| Tom Chambers |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8707.html Posted At 10:39:38 09/05/2001 "Or will Gil Bert just talk out of his ass?" Whoops, sorry Gil...lowered myself to your bashing level for a second....my bad. So you would fight to do business with someone you didn't think was fair to you? I don't disagree that there is some legal question here as to a vendor being bound to complete the transaction based on the contract with herp auction......but to want to go through with a deal with someone that you don't trust in the first place is ridiculous! Especially when the animal you want is readily available elsewhere. Common sense, no? TC |
| Gil Bert |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8712.html Posted At 14:12:59 09/05/2001 Tom Chambers, who do you sell Herps under? Just so I never make the mistake of buying from you. If I was Paul (highbidder) I wouldn't by from Miller after he chose not to honor is auction commitment. But I SURE as HELL wouldn't back up Miller. TRUST is all we have online. I sell to inpatient people at least once a week, but I sell, I ship, I deliver the promised property. If they're not happy then I gladly refund the purchase (not shipping). I love it when you sink to my level Tom, It's lonely down here with the reptiles. You didn't need be before and now that I found this great site to up hold truth, justice and the american way. I'm sure we'll butt heads again. |
| Tom B |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8717.html Posted At 15:54:55 09/05/2001 "I sell to inpatient people at least once a week, but I sell, I ship, I deliver the promised property." That's because you're such a powerful cog in the reptile industries wheel, right? I always laugh when I hear people like you talk about how many animals they sell. Trust me Gil, guys like you are a dime a dozen... |
| Gerald Detwiler |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8720.html Posted At 16:51:55 09/05/2001 I know Paul Miller very well. He is honest and first rate. I have had many dealings with him throughout the years involving rare reptiles and big money! One thing I will say though: He calls 'em like he sees 'em, He won't roll over and formost he won't be jacked around!!!! If you offered three you should have paid the three! All breeders should be able to reserve the right to whom they do business with! You were out as soon as you reniged on the three bills! Get over it! |
| Tom Chambers |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8726.html Posted At 18:46:35 09/05/2001 Gil, roll in the mud alone, I'm not here to throw insults back and forth. I'm sure you are not a bad guy....we can disagree and still have a beer, yes? As you said all there is left for our hobby is trust....once I don't trust someone I don't buy from them either....it sounded to me right away that PBM did not trust PM because he backed out of the contract, which is why I didn't understand why PBM would continue......Miller is wrong too but I still may have reacted the same way thinking blowing off PBM would be less of a risk. (Miller probably assumed he'd go away and not bother with the pursuit of the contract legality issue.) I don't support Miller any more than PBM. Both sides made mistakes that led them to this place. My whole point in this is that it seems the two are pursuing dead end streets......much like this thread......and creating more problems......much like this thread......instead of just walking away and ignoring what ends up being insignificant BS on the wall......much like I will now do with this thread. And since you asked....I sell herps under TC Reptile. Peace - TC TC Reptile |
| fred |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8737.html Posted At 00:55:09 09/06/2001 i love men. they have big pythons |
| steve barringer |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8739.html Posted At 01:42:52 09/06/2001 hey fred, i think you're on the wrong forum!!!!!!!!!! sorry, couldn't resist. lol as for the pauls, hope you guys can straighten this out. good luck, steve who's got the biggest pauls of them all? b.o.i. sorry again, just tryin to lighten it up in here! later |
| Eprum Unis |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8768.html Posted At 17:03:32 09/06/2001 This Mitzelfelt is a classic example of the type of creep who go`s into a store gives the clerks a hard time until they can`t take his crap anymore then runs to the manager and crys about the bad service.Anyone one who`s ever been involved in retail sales knows exactly what I`m talking about.In this case there was no manager to complain to so Mitzelfelt came up with the idea that he`d just win the auction and get the snake anyhow.It didn`t work out that way and Paul Miller has dated emails from herp auction to prove that they in fact made mistakes in placing the animals up for bid and the auction was never valid from the begining due to the miscomunication on their part.Mitzelfelt was a complete jerk and acted like a jackass with Paul miller from the word go.It`s a shame more dealers don`t stand by their morals instead of putting up with shit from these types of people just to make the sale.It`s time creeps like Mitzelfelt learn that just because your spending money that dosen`t give you the right to be abusive,condescending and threatening to the seller.By not selling to you Paul Miller proved in fact he is a GOOD GUY!!! |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8781.html Posted At 20:57:58 09/06/2001 Well, I was done, but you people telling me to let it go, etc. have decided not to let it go yourselves and continue to post. This last post made me show my ugly face again. How can a seller post on kingsnake.com classifieds HE put up some cb Biaks with NO RESERVE and then have one of his butt buddies come in here and tell us how it was an invalid auction. Funny when he was trying to get us all to bid, it was valid huh? And I was so rude from the get go wasn't I-Hey, when's auction end, really three months??? How much would ya sell one for-thanks, his response-then mine of Okay, I will think about it and get back with you, thanks again-Gee, I truly sound like a creep huh. And you know what, I even went the extra mile to keep in contact, and not be some dead beat you as a retail expert would be crying about that told you this and that, and never ever heard from him/her again. Boo HOO, your friend obviously is looking like the liar now if he claims the auction wasn't valid. He advertised it himself for Christ sake, and other people saw this ad, so if they buy your crap, man this hobby is messed up. And also funny Herpauction never e-mailed me in response to my complaint telling me it was an invalid auction so therefore I have no legal rights-Again, and for the last time-Some of you had real nice genuine advice for me, and thought it best if I just gave up-Please do the same and let this damn topic die-Take Care All! |
| PBM |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8784.html Posted At 21:18:42 09/06/2001 Hey webslave, just for your info, I e-mailed ol' Eprum Unis, and guess what. Not only is his info bogus, but so is the e-mail address. Take Care, atleast good honest people are trying to call me a creep-LMAO See ya all around! Hope we can all put this little episode behind us, and hold no bad feelings toward each other. As TC likes to say, lets go have a beer! |
| M.Gandolfo |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8785.html Posted At 21:34:40 09/06/2001 I am sorry, PBM, I have to say this-- is Eprum Unis REALLY a name???? HE'S the one acting like a jackass! Paul Miller may or may not have morals, but Eprum Unis, you're not helping his case any with your name-calling. If the auction wasn't valid why hasn't the auction contacted PBM to let him know? Okay, PBM, I'll let it rest now. |
| Paul Miller |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8795.html Posted At 01:35:49 09/07/2001 Let me clear this all up real fast. I havent responded because I didnt feel like wasting anymore time talking to someone who has clearly made an ass out of himself. I am only responding to give all the people that have emailed me privately supporting me the whole story. First off he was the one who informed me that the snakes didnt have a reserve. I told him and another party (Steve Strong) that there was supposed to be a reserve. I even commented "alot of people are going to be pissed off if I dont get this fixed" I then emailed the HerpAuction but didnt get a response due to it being a holiday weekend. In the email I informed them of my mistake or error that occured during the submission of the post. If you like you can contact them and they WILL CONFIRM THIS!. I then posted ads up that they were on the auction with no reserve in hopes of boosting the bidding so I wouldnt get in a jam because the mistake wasnt going to be fixed. Which is very legal. I also had the option of placing one bid on my items. You can check that in the rules of the auction also. By not being able to fix this problem before the close time I then tried to exercise my right to place my single bid to keep my snakes and replace them on the auction or sale them privately. Another error occured during this process and I could not place my bid. TEXT COPIED FROM THE AUCTION RULES: Third, a seller in a non-reserve price auction may bid on his/her own item only once. This may happen if a seller starts an auction at a particular price, and then realizes that he/she wants to keep the item at a price above that minimum bid. Being placed as a non reserve item the above rule does apply. This should clear up any matters concerning violations of auction rules for you guys that posted without knowing the whole story. I have every right to keep my snakes at this point. Due to the fact that I wasnt able to place my bid. This is a rule set by the auction. So I havent violated nor am I obligated to sell PBM anything. In response to PBM's posts Before the end of the auction you offered me 275 I didnt accept, I decided I didnt want to deal with you anymore so I didnt return your email. Is that a crime? I think not. Does this make me a bad guy? Absolutely not! It was a very wise choice as these posts have confirmed. After the auction closed I received the email you posted above obviously acting like a child with your sarcasm and you actually thought I would sell you anything? Get real! I dont need your kind of business. You were an ass from the start. You have done nothing but post childish and slanderous remarks within this whole thread. If anyone should be taking further action it should be me. I hope this has cleared things up for everyone. This is what happened and how I feel about the whole situation. I have a good instinct when dealing with people and that is one thing that has kept me in this business. I didnt feel that PBM was someone I wanted to deal with.I stand firm with my convictions and feel I am 100% justified by doing so. I hope everyone can understand that. I know that most people have seen why I decided not to deal with him by his actions. I want to thank all the people who emailed privately supporting me and all the great guys who have posted here in my defense or with there kind comments. Especially EU, John Hedger, Tim Boles, Jerry Detwiler, Gary Schiavino, and Joel Holloman. Thank You, Paul Miller |
| Christine Thompson |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
8801.html Posted At 08:17:21 09/07/2001 Paul I wish I and Arnie had your sence when things started with "J" and "B". It would of saved a lot of everything. I agree with you If red lights start flashing dont sell to someone that is only going to cause you trouble. No mater what the item or how nice they will never be happy. Chris |
| Blake Van Etten |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
9049.html Posted At 04:26:37 09/14/2001 It's obvious to anyone reading this thread that Paul Mitzelfelt is a whining little boy. Grow up Paul, you are a whiner. |
| Chris Carmichael |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
9104.html Posted At 23:56:22 09/15/2001 I got sucked into this thread after reading a few of the posts, and thought I would simply say be careful when judging a person's character based on information exchanged in this forum. I am not going to take either side in this case, but I can say that Paul Mitzelfelt is certainly not the kind of person portrayed above in some of the posts. I have known him for several years and he is a dedicated herpetoculturist that spends a significant amount of time with his collection, keeping the animals in excellent shape. I really don't know enough about the legalities of the transaction, so therefore I can't really render a good opinion in this case. But I just wanted clear up a few things about Paul's (Mitzel.)character. He would give the shirt off his back to anybody in need, and is gracious in spirit. I would say the same about Paul Miller if I knew him, but I don't so I can't really render an opinion about the other side of the table. It seems that followup posts could have simply stated their past dealings with Paul Miller and kept out the character defamation/assault. For example...."Based on my previous dealings with Paul Miller, I had an excellent transaction...". etc., etc. If Paul Miller's a really good guy, then just state as such and let it rest, and if not, just say what happened and let it rest. Or, if people were to have posted specifically about the nature of the legalities of purchasing via auctions, or if the nature of the transaction that Paul Miller posted at the end was discussed earlier, I think that would have definitely been more educational and likely resolved the issue. PBM's a good guy, I wouldn't dig into this any deeper. |
| Chris P. |
Re: Paul Miller...BAD GUY!
9121.html Posted At 02:00:04 09/17/2001 When PBM wrote an email to PB before the auction was over accepting his offer of $300 shipped, he ruined any "legal" recourse he had notwithstanding the fact that PB can bid once on a non reserve auction. PB has the email evidence proving that PBM agreed to enter into a non-auction transaction for those same goods, at that point that auction doesn't matter PBM waived his auction rights by trying to circumvent it before the auction was closed. Not that it matters to me, but maybe it will shut up some of the freaks on here who are such rules snitches. Barring the fact that PB doesn't want to sell them for fear of the snakes welfare, a way to deal with someone like this who wants to quote rules and legalities so much is to keep him to those same high standards. I'm sure PBM would be delighted when you told him his total cost would be somewhere around $400 when you total the shipping of the SELLERS CHOICE. Especially since I don't think any door to door carriers officially accept live snakes in their "rules" right? It would almost be PB's civic duty to ship them to PBM in the rightest way possible, the most expensive airfreight carrier (and therefore the best and the most correct) one he can find. And PBM would be "legally" bound to foot the bill, since he agreed to pay the final auction price plus shipping. I think this is a good recourse to anyone using herpauction who doesn't want to sell to someone. Just make sure that you put in your post buyer pays actual shipping costs. I don't think that the whole legally binding part of the auctions should pertain as hard to live animal offerings, I personally care way too much about my animals to let them go to someone I have a bad feeling about. |