Refusing a sale on a gut feeling

[SPJ]

Has anyone refused a sale to anyone just based on a gut feeling that it should not happen?

Last week I was contacted about an animal. I put it on hold pending a deposit. The deposit never came. I relisted it and a few days later I get asked to put it on hold again and a deposit is coming. I left the ad up and no deposit came.

Today I get a deposit for half of what the deposit was said to be by a different person (a friend) who wants to see the same photos I sent their friend previously.

The original deal was a certain amount down and balance on the 31st.

I just have a gut feeling that I should refund the deposit and refuse the sale. It just doesn't feel right.


I have this feeling that with the delays and multiple people pooling to buy the animal that this deal is going to go south. Nothing has gone smoothly with it.

Has anyone else had a feeling like this as a seller where it just doesn't feel right to continue with the deal?

The ad does say I reserve the right to refuse a sale. I've refused sales in the past with kids and retics and monitors or to people who have no idea how to care for an animal but that's about the only ones.

[kellysballs]

You have every right to refuse a sale for any reason.

I personally have inquired about an animal and said I would purchase it. I never have asked for an animal to be placed on hold until I actually have at least half of the the purchase price. The animal I mentioned earlier I did end up purchasing 2 months after I originally inquired but I let the seller know what was happening and never expected the animal to be held for me to "get the money together".

I would say the circumstances are not necessarily "suspicious" but if you have a "gut" feeling about the situation go with it.

[monkeywrench133]

Do yourself a favor and "just say no!" as Nancy Reagan would have said.

[hhmoore]

Of course, Steve. There is nothing wrong with refusing a sale based on instinct.
On the matter of this new person. They sent you a deposit without prior communication? No discussion of payment completion, or any of the other details that go along with the transaction? If so, you can either straight up refund it and make no effort for this person, or run with it. They have given you a commitment to a sale. If, as a result, you spend your time on "customer service" - taking new pictures, modifying your schedule to meet with them, etc - that money is yours. If they choose not to complete that sale, you are fully justified in keeping their money (why would somebody send a deposit, THEN ask for more pictures??)

[shrap]

I have told more than one person I would just rather not do business with them. Sometimes for very obvious reasons and other times simply because the person or circumstances didnt feel right to me.

[E2MacPets]

Harold, I don't think I'd agree. Don't move forward thinking that "however this plays out I get the deposit money." That's not a good way to do business in my opinion.

I'd say refund the money and refuse the sale.

[LadyOhh]

I would refund the money and refuse the sale as well.

If you don't feel comfortable, AND it involves a living creature that can be taken advantage of, in my opinion, don't do it.

[hhmoore]

Harold, I don't think I'd agree. Don't move forward thinking that "however this plays out I get the deposit money." That's not a good way to do business in my opinion.

I'd say refund the money and refuse the sale.
So, are you saying that he should pull the animal off the market, tell other prospective buyers that the animal is unavailable, make himself available to meet with the person, etc, then just say, "Oh, you don't REALLY want the snake? OK, here's your money back."? I'll even give you that one - because in many cases, I would do just that. But where do you draw the line? *more later

The first option I presented was to just refund the deposit and make no effort for this person. The second was to accept the deposit and consider it a sale. If the customer renegs, Steve IS justified in keeping the money. Whether he chooses to do so will likely depend on just how much of his time is wasted, as well as miscellaneous other factors. Keeping a deposit may seem harsh, but sometimes it is the right thing to do. It is a commitment to a sale...pending completion of payment. When/if it becomes something else, I think you will see a lot less people accepting deposits.

Now - back to that line that I mentioned above. (And remember, what I said was that if Steve accepted the sale, and put efforts into "customer service", he would be fully justified in keeping the money.) Let's say that Steve gives the person his money back. Another person comes along and does the same thing - gives a deposit, comes and looks at the snake, then says - you know what, it isn't quite what I was expecting. Somebody else just doesn't bother to show up, then asks for a refund. At what point do you draw the line and stop returning the money? If a customer isn't ready to commit to a purchase, they should not be giving a deposit - it really is that simple. If the customer wants to ask for more pictures, or to see the animal in person - that is a part of selling animals, and I don't think anybody would say that they wouldn't do it. It is part of the decision making process. That all happens before the deposit, and if the animal sells in the mean time...well, you are SOL. I have purchased animals based on descriptions or pictures, and been less than thrilled with the animal I saw upon receipt. Are you suggesting that if the animal is healthy, and is clearly the animal pictured (or it matches the description), that I am automatically entitled to a refund?? (sure, some sellers offer unconditional returns, but unless it is specified I wouldn't expect it) All that said, I also happen to know that Steve has had several people not show up for appts to see this animal, as well as verbal/written commitments to purchase that have not resulted in a completed sale. He has also added to his ad this statement: No holds unless it is with a non-refundable deposit and the price is firm. Which indicates that Steve has reached that line, IMO. All my initial post was meant to do is acknowledge that IF he accepts this deposit (as a commitment to a sale), he IS fully justified in keeping it if the person decides not to follow through.

[SPJ]

What really gets me about this deal are the fact that on 2 occasions I was supposed to recieve a deposit and the deposit never came. Then the deposit does come and it is half of what I was told was being put down. Then the person I had all the correspondence with says his friend is sending the money. That friend does finally send some money but asks to see pictures of what he just put a deposit on. That is strange. If these 2 are partners, you would think BOTH would have seen the pictures I took for one.

I just have this gut feeling that this is 2 people that don't have the money and are trying to scrape it up or it is one person who asked his buddy to loan him money and send it to me and that person was interested in seeing what he just put a deposit on.

It's just a feeling but after having 2 people pull the no call/no show after insisting that they were coming and I held the animal on their word and then now this going on with this new buyer, I just feel a bit leary. This deal just doesn't "feel" right.

[SPJ]

I sent both an email asking what happened with the missed deposit dates and why it was half of what was said. I gave them the option of me refunding the deposit right now if they cannot come up with the rest of the money and told them that I am considering it a non-refundable deposit and the balance is due on the 31st. If the balance does not arrive Friday, they lose the deposit and I relist the animal.
I'll see what response I get. Based on that, I will decide whether or not to continue with them.

[E2MacPets]

Harald,

In this case he only received half the requested deposit and from a third party. It's not a transaction that is going well or is likely to go well. What if both people send him money, each sends half, and then they both back away and both make claims against Steve? Does Steve want to try to deal with the resolution of multiple paypal disputes?


If one person gives a full deposit, that's one thing. But the complications that are involved with this current transaction are not worth the headache in my opinion. And again, I wouldn't want to take money from someone who can't commit to a business transaction. If he sent a full deposit that'd be a business transaction. But as is, who knows who this third party is that sent half of a deposit and whether that person is aware of the terms or just trying to help a friend (or is it the parent of the original party).

[hhmoore]

Steve,
Obviously, Steve doesn't want to deal with any PayPal disputes. Your scenario doesn't really work, though, because once a person sends a deposit, the animal is being held for them...anybody else sending a deposit would have it promptly returned, with an explanation.
Regarding the amount of the deposit, again, the option of just returning it and not investing time or effort with that customer was offered right at the start. If Steve accepts it, a plan will need to be outlined for payment - which has been done.

A third party? perhaps in a way. But ultimately, the transaction is with the person sending the money. The fact that Joe Blow communicated with Steve and reached an agreement is irrelevant, since John Smith is the one that sent the money. Steve is now dealing with John Smith, and Joe Blow really doesn't have any input on the situation anymore. John is the customer, even if it turns out that Joe will be the recipient of the snake. Considering the scenario that both would be contributing to the payment - well, IF Steve accepts that, he will have to make an agreement with both parties about who the responsible party is, who will be the recipient, and what happens with funds if either party does not live up to their end of the deal. I will admit that I have never been in THAT particular situation, though I have done 3rd party payment deals before.

[E2MacPets]

Harald,

Steve has been dealing with one person previously, now a second person is involved.
Steve received half a deposit from the second person, acting in the name of the first person, but also asking for pictures as if he's an interested third party.

There are three parties involved. Steve and both parties who are purchasing the animal together but apparently are acting somewhat independantly and only one person has sent Steve money, which amounts to half the requested deposit.

You also have the issue that you don't know anything about the two parties. The more people involved the more complications to turn the deal sour.

I can entirely understand Steve's gut feeling. I wouldn't personally want to accept a deposit for a deal I didn't have faith in. Business is business, but if you don't think there's a snowball's chance of the deal going through, don't accept the deposit. That's my opinion.

[hhmoore]

Harald,
I can entirely understand Steve's gut feeling. I wouldn't personally want to accept a deposit for a deal I didn't have faith in. Business is business, but if you don't think there's a snowball's chance of the deal going through, don't accept the deposit. That's my opinion.
I understand it as well. I don't really understand why there is an issue, since I started my responses by stating that he had 2 options - refund the deposit and forget the deal, or accept the deposit and consider it a sale. :shrug01:

I guess can (in a way...if I really try) understand that some might take exception to my statement that Steve (SPJ) would be justified in keeping the deposit if things fell through, but I haven't seen any compelling argument for me to change my mind about that. Apparently, our minds are operating on different tracks tonight - I'm not quite sure if I am missing your point, or you are missing mine - but I am not disagreeing with the option of refunding the deposit...I never stated anything even close to that.

[bullfrog100000]

I would refund the money and refuse the sale as well.

If you don't feel comfortable, AND it involves a living creature that can be taken advantage of, in my opinion, don't do it.

Especially if this is the animal I'm thinking of, I'd want it to go to someone who will at least try to breed it, and knows how to care for a BP. If this person (these people) are unreliable about getting you the proper amount of money how do you know there is an adequate set-up for the snake? That would be part of my concern with selling an animal. If they are this disorganized in a transaction, how disorganized are they going to be when it comes to regular feeding, care, etc. Who's house is it going to be at even. Sounds almost like a couple of kids really. (Another topic really... but the kid next door has several snakes which he got on the internet and they are all in the same cage! He tells everyone they aren't... but 3 BP's and an Anaconda). I guess for me the bottom line is I wouldn't feel comfortable with the care the snake might get, regardless of the money issue so I'd refund the money and not deal with them further. As far as ethics go HHMoore is right, you did say a deposit is non-refundable and they didn't send the arranged deposit AND didn't communicate the change and get it ok'd, etc, so you have compromised your own rule as it is actually. Keep the deposit if you want but either way I wouldn't sell these flakes the snake even if full payment shows up tomorrow (that part I would send back).

[SPJ]

how do you know there is an adequate set-up for the snake?
That was also brought up in my email to both of them. If they are having trouble coming up with the money, how do I know they can care for the animal? Also, with missing 2 promised deposit dates and then sending half of what they sad they would, how do I know they will follow thru?

if this is the animal I'm thinking of, I'd want it to go to someone who will at least try to breed it, and knows how to care for a BP.
It probably is the animal you are thinking of and I will admit I am being very selective and unmoving in the price. I have refused a few offers on him so far and I am not going to sell him to the first person that waves cash at me (especially if I am getting that odd feeling about the deal).


So far I have not recieved a response from either of them regarding my questions.
Here is my last email to the original person that contacted me.
I am a bit leary to continue this deal. The deposit did not arrive on the 2 times it was supposed to and instead of the $100 you said was below that was coming, it was $50.
Are you certain that you will have the funds available to will be able to complete this deal and pay the balance on Friday as well as have funds to have the proper set up ready for him when he arrives? I can issue a full refund for the deposit right now if you do not think you will have the funds Friday.

[bullfrog100000]

[COLOR=Blue]Ya well -w/ two or three people involved it seems an answer would easily be made quickly. Just bet their young, and not really ready for this responsibility.
I think its time to quit asking them anything and make a decision based on your feeling. You'll be happier in the end not worrying about how the animal is doing etc. I was talking to a breeder /friend who had a similar situation recently and went thru w/ the sale because she felt somehow obligated or guilty to say no after saying she would already. She is still worried like crazy about what kind of situation her lizard is in now.
I know some breeders can become cold or detached from the animals/ or humane issues etc. involved w/ the pets as it becomes a bigger and bigger business for them. Case in point the WC Horned Mountain Dragon we are now dealing w/ who has mucho problems etc.. (Long story) Theres a thread going.. Anyway, ,,The animals always lose in that proposition. And aside from that, people really should listen to their gut instincts, and /or first impressions in any situation. They are real and there to guide you.

[Otter_23]

I guess for me if it becomes to much of a headache with red flags I would kindly tell them to contact you when they can make the deposit.

On a side note. Welcome back Steven, kind wondered if you were still dealing with reptiles.

[Reptile Basics]

I have done more deals online-and off-than most. I can count the number of times I have been screwed over (in either direction, selling or buying) on my fingers and toes. Not a bad percentage really. With only two exceptions I saw every one of them coming but went ahead against my better judgement. It is bad enough getting ripped off but knowing it is coming and then having it happen is worse. I have avoided countless additional "problems" just listening to some of the voices in my head.

[E2MacPets]

Thanks Mark... I guess I made more of an impression than I was aware of. I've been out of both the business and hobby side of things for a few years actually (and got screwed by Chris from Top Shelf Exotics at the tail end). My fiance shares my passion and has her own fair share of animals, so it's only a matter of time before I start fresh myself.


I'm looking forward to reading how this scenario plays out... keep us informed, Steve.

[SPJ]

The balance arrived today via paypal. The animal has now been paid for in full.
Chad, the person who originally contacted me about this deal has not been responding to any emails anymore.
James, the one who sent the deposit and the final payment today is the one who I consider this deal to be with. His address is the one I am shipping to and he is the one who I have been on contact with recently.
The snake will be shipped to James on Tuesday for Wednesday morning delivery.
As far as this deal goes, I consider James the buyer and the deal is with him. I will deliver the snake as promised since he paid in full by the 31st which was the terms of the original deal with Chad.
He wants to get started in breeding and I think he picked one hell of an animal to get started with. :D
Looks like this deal is done. :yesnod:

[hhmoore]

I know you've been trying to sell him for a while, and you took a pretty big hit on that one, Steve. I have to admit that my initial thought was to post "I'm sorry to hear that, buddy. I was kind of hoping he wouldn't sell, and that it would turn into something fun and profitable for you.

<sigh>

Well, as long as he's gone - I've got this male you've got to see to believe. You're gonna love him. :rofl:

[SPJ]

I know you've been trying to sell him for a while, and you took a pretty big hit on that one, Steve.
Tell me about it. Taking a hit is an understament. :( :(
My only consolation is that hopefully his offspring will offset the loss I took on him.

Well, as long as he's gone - I've got this male you've got to see to believe. You're gonna love him. :rofl:
No more taking chances for me. It comes back to bite me big time. :yesnod:

[SPJ]

Oh What the Hell! :angry:

He is going to be in school and his mother will have to sign for the snake and he'll let me know later that night how the delivery was (he has to go to work after classes). That email caught me by surprise. I sent another one back asking what year he was in. I really hope he is over 18. Working part time and going to school would explain why coming up with the money took him a while. I think I need to have a talk with his mother. Make sure she knows what is coming that she needs to sign for. :yesnod:

[SPJ]

I really need to start listening to my instincts. :rolleyes:

[bullfrog100000]

Well... TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. And they said... don't do it.
I personally wouldn't send the snake and just send the money back.
Your assumption is that 1. you were doing business with someone of age to enter into a contract and 2. it was going to a home where snakes are allowed, and 3. someone who won't trade it when they get tired of it, or whatever. You don't know if either of these are true at this point. It seems there was some misrepresentation going on here with this kid and his friend, likely also a kid.
If you still feel inclined to possibly go through with this transaction (which I wouldn't), TALK with his mother... not email, but on the phone.
At this point, even if the kid gigs you with a bad BOI review... who cares. They screwed up in the first place and any buyer from here certainly won't see this as a blemish on your reputation... I'd actually feel it makes you a seller who cares more about the animals than the money (big plus for me).
Also this isn't just a $20 run of the mill normal BP, or even a $100 breedable size male normal BP... it is something special possibly. And you may be possessing proof of that actually. If it turns out to be something special you don't want to find out this kid got tired of it, or it escaped, or he went to college and wouldn't care for it so he traded it or sold it to a pet shop. If it does turn out to be something interesting and I was the one who purchased it I'd make sure either 1. I breed it the best I could or 2. sell it to someone who has the time/resources to do it right.
Again... please reconsider. Sounds like your conscience with be happier if you do.

[SPJ]

I emailed him asking for a phone number and that I wanted to talk to his mother about this deal. I want to 1. make sure this animal will be properly taken care of and 2. that I am not dealing with a minor.
So far, no response in 2 days.

[hhmoore]

well, it is a holiday weekend :shrug01:
(hows that for trying to be reasonable, lol)
Steve, if it falls through - keep the darned snake!!

[SPJ]

I will. Even my wife says she is now concerned about the snakes long term well being. She would rather I refund the money than worry that it died in someone elses hands. Man, I guess that $400 haircut I filpped out about Friday may have been a good thing afterall. She's easing up a bit. Although I did tell he if she EVER spent that much again I would be forced to strangle her. :rofl:

[E2MacPets]

$400 haircut? I'd flip if Stina did that too.
Steve, I sent you a PM.

[SPJ]

Yeah. She went in for a haircut and the woman told her that she had dried split ends due to a bad perm she got a while back and it would be best to cut it really short and put in the permament hair extensions and let it grow out and that would get rid of the damage. Great except they never told Amy it would $400 until AFTER they did everything.

I got the PM. I'll let you know.

[E2MacPets]

Niiiiiice well whatever makes her happy and feel good about herself. And if it gives you leverage to buy more, even better *smirks*

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Well if she got all the for $400~ feel lucky. I went in ONCE to get my hair colored professionally......when they gave me the $200 bill (for a cut and color at a place I usually get a cut for $20 bucks!) I politely paid the bill......and never went back again.

Good luck on your snake deal Steve~ hope it works out for you

E2~ Nice to see you again Worm!

[bullfrog100000]

Who does she think she is... John Edwards wife? LOL. A $400 haircut... heck that ought to be an entire DAY at the spa with everything.
But yep, gives some good leverage.
I think at this point you've been more than accommodating and reasonable, far more than I would have been. Keep snake, send money back.

[E2MacPets]

Cheryl, wow... good to see you too! And thanks, it really makes me happy to be coming back and finding that people remember me and are happy to see me. Someone who remembers my old nickname too, that's impressive!

[SPJ]

Well, he didn't answer the age question twice when he replied and gave me a cell phone number that no one picked up on when I called it (it was supposed to be number that I could talk to him and his mother about the snake) and then finally calls me back AT 11PM when both of my kids are asleep (or were) and I was half asleep because I had work the next day and he's a kid.

I cancelled the shipment refunded his full amount. Deposit and all.

I do not sell to minors without parental consent and it didn't look like I was going to get it. Seems a few deals have been screwy this year.

This guy will now stay here and I will see if there is a super form once he proves out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/Project%20Ball%20Pythons/DSCF0459.jpg

[bullfrog100000]

Good! I think you always would have wondered if the sale had been a mistake. Plus after you bred him, and she's gravid how could you part with him not knowing??? No way I could.