Can We Enforce a Higher Level of Accountablity?

[deborahbroadus]

Deborah Broadus: I read through and come to the conclusion that people think when we are trying to "encourage" people to do the right thing that we enjoy "bashing" or that the intention is to destroy businesses.

I know this is true: All that is needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

That said, if everyone is constantly saying, "I can't force anyone to do anything, it's not my job..etc, then who's job is it? The concept of "self" policing is that WE do encourage people to do the right thing and we do it with the legal tools we have at hand (including our mouths).

For the BOI to step to the next level, and become what it is destined to be (imho) as it is suggested...it SHOULD have a policy that no one can run ads who does not have a clean reputation..this doesn't mean sterling reputation..it means no one with unresolved issues ON THIS BOARD should be able to post ads or even be on here...we can even take it one step further and say that the main forums form a partnership..that would be a GREAT encouragement for scammers to stay on the straight and narrow. If they can leave one place and post in another place that's not going to help the community much and will still give them an avenue to scam people.

Those of us that are unwittingly helping them by trying to "take the high road".. it could be you next...somewhere down the line, they will have sold an animal to someone you know...you might come in contact with that animal..even at a show..somewhere they are going to have a sick animal with a virus that is going to wipe out every animal you own....and that is more possible than anyone dreams.

*** now off my soap box

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WebSlave: Do you want the authority and responsibilty to enforce that?

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Gary Orner Jr: LOL, That would be one big job.........
Thanks Steve!


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Maggie Burroughs: Deb, although in a perfect world (this one being FAR from perfect) your idea is a great one, realistically it won't work. You do have the best interest of everyone in mind though and I have to give you kudos for that!

With just about every forum I belong to having either their own Bad Guy forums (or on others they will actively refer people here) there is information about the scammers out there for those who choose to look for it.

We can't take all the responsibility from the buyers to research their next purchases, it's just not possible. We should be here to help if they need us, though.
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I'm an insomniac. Each night when I can't sleep, I count the buckles on my straight-jacket.
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Randy Mackey: Deborah, there have been bad guy threads here where there was no doubt the bad guy was a scumbag. Yet one thing that is often missing from Bad guy threads is real solid proof you know something that say you could take into a court of law(believe me without that kind of proof someone is going to end up in court if they follow your suggestion) As has been noted it's a great idea you have but not at all a workable idea.

We often go by the word of someone we know and respect on this forum but again people like Chris Johnson come to mind who had most folks here eating out of his hand up until it was to late. I can tell you this that if two years ago he had started a bad guy thread about you or me that we'd have taken a lot of heat.

This site or any of its kind can only be a tool to help You make a decision, not make a decision for You..Randy
__________________
Staying in Bed Screaming Oh GOD! OH GOD! OOOHH GOOODD!! Does not constitute going to church..

I can assure you, these next four weeks will be the worst YEARS of your miserable lives!
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Originally Posted by WebSlave
Do you want the authority and responsibilty to enforce that?

Deborah Broadus: I am no one, but a seeker of an Ideal. I was thinking that it could be done electronically.

My idea is (bear with me) We do (over all the herping community) push the GGC as a mark of a good businessman..such as BBB. As it catches on people will not buy from those (or buy less) that do not display this emblem.

This emblem can be (?) electronically set up to close down the membership if their good guy rating falls below a set point (this gives them "some" leeway) It's like, if I lose my password I can't sign on. Similarily, if someone has such a number of bad guy points they can no longer sign on and someone can review certificates on a regular basis and contact those people to see what has happened or if any progress has been made, OR the OPs that started the tread can send a pm to the moderator to let them know that the situation has been resolved and post the resolution on the boards.

Its the same set up with a few changes to increase accountablity. Not being technically inclined, I would set up such a thing if I knew how. ( I am not trying to make any more work for anyone)
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Maggie Burroughs: Originally Posted by LakesideBoas
Deb, although in a perfect world (this one being FAR from perfect) your idea is a great one, realistically it won't work. You do have the best interest of everyone in mind though and I have to give you kudos for that!

With just about every forum I belong to having either their own Bad Guy forums (or on others they will actively refer people here) there is information about the scammers out there for those who choose to look for it.

We can't take all the responsibility from the buyers to research their next purchases, it's just not possible. We should be here to help if they need us, though.


Deborah Broadus: I will not be consigned to the back seat and given a pat on the head! Pshaw

It can be done. The Better Business Bureau has a similar set up, correct? They give out emblems and take them back if the person does not align themselves to recognized good business practices. We would be taking it one step farther and perhaps it can be done electronically, I don't know..but until someone gets the idea and creates some software (or whatever these brainy people do) we won't be doing much but spinning our wheels. How many times have we read: "I would give them a second chance?" Oh my lord.

I am not suggesting doing the buyers searching or decison-making for him, I am suggesting a more stricter accountablity system on our own forum for those that carry the GGC or are members here; an accountablity system that can be expanded to include those forums that plug into the dream.
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Originally Posted by LakesideBoas: Maggie Burroughs:
Deb, I would never try to patronize you! I sincerely apologize if you took my post that way.

I admire your gusto, your enthusiasm and your genuine concern for others that comes through in almost every post you make. You remind me not be as jaded and cynical as I might become without you, so please never think you're getting a milk-bone and a pat on the head from me.

Deborah Broadus: Thank you, I know sometimes I have a hard time putting the ideal on the paper, there are so many things, actions, improvements that can be made in this trade.

The way I see it: The gas company has price controls, as does the housing and merchandising arenas. The reptile trade is largely unregulated and unless we regulate ourselves or set up our own watch dog(s)(stronger accountablity controls), I can see the government taking more and more control as we continue to show evidence that we are unwilling or unable to do this. We know what we need so who better to police us than ourselves?

Setting it up legally is another issue, but the first step has to be taken some time, somewhere by some one. We can't long expect these scammers to fly below the radar of the law. Eventually they will come into the gun-sight of some politican that wants to make a name and they will say when we speak up.."If you feel that you should be a "self-policing" community, why havent you been doing that?" and....they will more than likely bring up the same arguments that I did..too many people not wanting to be involved, trying to hold onto some "moral" clause while scammers continue to feed off everyone elses morals, having none themselves.

Visual: A person wades though a swamp and comes up with a ton of leeches sticking on him...he leaves them on because he's an animal lover and believes that "they have a right to live too"; he later dies because they bleed him to death. farfetched..but that's how I see scammers and those that try to hold onto a moral standpoint when dealing with them. (move over Wilomn). They may not have done anything overt to US personally, but that's only because they haven't had the chance yet.

Seriously, with new diseases coming in..it may be a matter of time before CDC takes notice and steps in?

Scammers put us all at risk of losing our animals one way or another...some may think this may be the extreme way of viewing the situation, but given that so many have already lost collections, I don't think so.

[Lucille]

In my opinion you are on a good track, but it would take some thought to craft a policy that would be neither overinclusive so that for instance, those who have differing opinions on business policies are not harmed if reasonable minds could differ; nor underinclusive, for instance; not taking issue with parts of the deal that while they may not techically be a scam are nevertheless wrong (like shipping certain critters USPS that are not supposed to be shipped in that manner).

Plus, there would need to be some safeguards; you would not want a sharp dealer to open a sham issue at the beginning of the selling season as a way to remove a competitor's ads for a while.

It is important too, to allow people some freedom to speak, and with the current policies in place they can do so and be met with the feelings of the community; that can sometimes be more valuable than a policed silence.
Good thread, Deborah.

[kmurphy]

Deb, did all these quotes come from another thread? Or are they a compilation of several threads?

It would be nice if "bad guys", scammer's and the like would find it difficult to advertise anywhere. I don't believe it is necessary to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that an individual is bad for our hobby/industry in order to ban their ads. Kingsnake seems to do it on a regular basis, and, though people complain, there hasn't been any lawsuits that I am aware of.

[deborahbroadus]

Deb, did all these quotes come from another thread? Or are they a compilation of several threads?

It would be nice if "bad guys", scammer's and the like would find it difficult to advertise anywhere. I don't believe it is necessary to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that an individual is bad for our hobby/industry in order to ban their ads. Kingsnake seems to do it on a regular basis, and, though people complain, there hasn't been any lawsuits that I am aware of.


The posts are a compilation of one thread, but please drop it. It was simply an idea that I had without researching the history of the site. It was not an intention to cause more work for Rich or those entrenched in the history of Fauna.

I have been informed that Rich doesn't need a garage-breeder know-it-all coming in and causing trouble and as I hate nastiness, I woudl prefer to drop it.

[varnyard]

Deborahbroadus, you just started this thread today and you want to drop it already?

I would like to have a link to the main thread, thanks.

[critical bill]

Its a real brain fart of a thread I'll tell you that.

[snake5007]

Very interesting thread topic Deborah! :thumbsup:

[LakesideBoas]

The posts are a compilation of one thread, but please drop it. It was simply an idea that I had without researching the history of the site. It was not an intention to cause more work for Rich or those entrenched in the history of Fauna.

I have been informed that Rich doesn't need a garage-breeder know-it-all coming in and causing trouble and as I hate nastiness, I woudl prefer to drop it.
First of all, that was rude and uncalled for. I don't know who told you that, Deb, but shame on you whoever you are.

Nothing says Rich has to discuss, compile or implement anything you propose in this discussion. It is simply what it is, a discussion. I didn't see where you even mentioned Rich or Fauna as being a venue for anything other than this discussion.

I have to do some errands, but I'll be back in a little while. I don't see any reason why we have to shoot down anyone who cares to discuss something that has the potential to benefit all of us. Brainstorming an idea is the quickest way I know of to get ideas and issues together and closer to resolution.

If we all acted like a bunch of ignorant peasants every time someone proposed an idea then this site probably wouldn't be here now would it......:no01:

Play nice children.

[Lucille]

First of all, that was rude and uncalled for. I don't know who told you that, Deb, but shame on you whoever you are.

Nothing says Rich has to discuss, compile or implement anything you propose in this discussion. It is simply what it is, a discussion. I didn't see where you even mentioned Rich or Fauna as being a venue for anything other than this discussion.

I have to do some errands, but I'll be back in a little while. I don't see any reason why we have to shoot down anyone who cares to discuss something that has the potential to benefit all of us. Brainstorming an idea is the quickest way I know of to get ideas and issues together and closer to resolution.

If we all acted like a bunch of ignorant peasants every time someone proposed an idea then this site probably wouldn't be here now would it......:no01:

Play nice children.

I agree.

Whoever said it must hate the free interplay of ideas.

While every discussion doesn't bear fruit, those who participate benefit in many ways: listening to the ideas of others, the community bonds that come from courteously listening to those who care enough about a site to invest time thinking about it.

If you don't think a particular discussion is your cup of tea, no one is forcing participation, but to quash an idea from its inception doesn't benefit anyone.

[Wilomn]

Actually Maggie, this was discussed in some detail while you were on hiatus. I don't recall which forum at the moment but I think the general consensus was that short of Napoleon or Hitler taking over and forcing everyone to obey some sort of guideline there is no way to enforce any sort of standard other than a case by case basis.

There are those like me who don't want a GGC. It can be used as a negative, and it was in my case, by those with personal grudges. Wanny guess which 5 dimwits, none of whom had ever done business with me, voted me a bad guy? Go ahead and try, it's not to tough to figure out.

Then there's the whole "what if" syndrome. "What if" someone is lying? Who's going to make that call? We do as a group after we've done some investigating or looking into our navels or whatever we do to come up with our positions on any given subject, but if you try to regulate that, I'm out. I don't play well with others and have no desire to be part of an organization that abidicates doing so as the only way to operate.

Being The Wild West is really the best way that has come up out of several years of trying different approaches to what you would like to achieve.

Your goals are admirable, I'll give you that.

Good luck on the rest.

[Wilomn]

If you don't think a particular discussion is your cup of tea, no one is forcing participation, but to quash an idea from its inception doesn't benefit anyone.

Isn't that sort of like squashing, from its inception, the idea that this may not be the best idea?

[varnyard]

First of all, that was rude and uncalled for. I don't know who told you that, Deb, but shame on you whoever you are.

Nothing says Rich has to discuss, compile or implement anything you propose in this discussion. It is simply what it is, a discussion. I didn't see where you even mentioned Rich or Fauna as being a venue for anything other than this discussion.

I have to do some errands, but I'll be back in a little while. I don't see any reason why we have to shoot down anyone who cares to discuss something that has the potential to benefit all of us. Brainstorming an idea is the quickest way I know of to get ideas and issues together and closer to resolution.

If we all acted like a bunch of ignorant peasants every time someone proposed an idea then this site probably wouldn't be here now would it......:no01:

Play nice children.

I will second that motion. :thumbsup:

[Roy Munson]

It's a GREAT idea, Deborah-- as is true communism. Unfortunately, as a species, we're not ready for either yet...

[deborahbroadus]

Deborahbroadus, you just started this thread today and you want to drop it already?

I would like to have a link to the main thread, thanks.

No, I don't particularly "want" to drop it, but I have seen how some turn discussions can turn into very nasty posts...and as I have already made my desires known about name calling ridicule of another's opinion and behavior of such like, I would never willingly make myself a target for those who seem to take pleasure in such interactions. I never turn away from a logical, honest discussion. But I have no desire to be raked over coals for someone's entertainment. I would have dropped it, actually because I do not feel the need to "prove" a thing. I do not have to prove the idea has merit; it can stand or fall on its own with discussion and with me trying to expand on what I see (envision).

Here ya go.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106842&page=10&pp=5

[deborahbroadus]

Actually Maggie, this was discussed in some detail while you were on hiatus. I don't recall which forum at the moment but I think the general consensus was that short of Napoleon or Hitler taking over and forcing everyone to obey some sort of guideline there is no way to enforce any sort of standard other than a case by case basis.

There are those like me who don't want a GGC. It can be used as a negative, and it was in my case, by those with personal grudges. Wanny guess which 5 dimwits, none of whom had ever done business with me, voted me a bad guy? Go ahead and try, it's not to tough to figure out.

Then there's the whole "what if" syndrome. "What if" someone is lying? Who's going to make that call? We do as a group after we've done some investigating or looking into our navels or whatever we do to come up with our positions on any given subject, but if you try to regulate that, I'm out. I don't play well with others and have no desire to be part of an organization that abidicates doing so as the only way to operate.

Being The Wild West is really the best way that has come up out of several years of trying different approaches to what you would like to achieve.

Your goals are admirable, I'll give you that.

Good luck on the rest.

But isn't this what LAWS do? We don't have a choice, someone (representative consenus) decided which laws would benefit the better good and established a system to enforce it. I do not see (bear with me), how this is so very different.

The "what if?" That's why it could be all automatic..like if you speed you get a ticket, you have the opportunity to argue the ticket, but the ticket is there, what if the machine is wrong? What if you weren't speeding and the machine is broke? That's why there are checks and balances.

IMO, the Wild West has had its day and in those days the law of the gun was what was needed because there was NO SYSTEM in place. There were lots of "outlaws" that struggled against the changes in the "status quo" to no avail...they eventually fell by the wayside and more people saw the benefit of having some kind of guidelines in writing, or some kind of automatic system that helped to encourage people..some kind of penalties something that would regulate the trade more than it is now.

We may not like it..but those days are coming. With all the people out there scamming (remember the internet used to be free..remember there used to be no regulations..there are now and they are getting stricter and more enforceable as time passes) whoever is first to grab the "brass ring" may be in a position to have the opportunity when those days come to show a system already in place and get grants to shore up/improve that system.

[Mooing Tricycle]

No, I don't particularly "want" to drop it, but I have seen how some turn discussions can turn into very nasty posts...

Dont be put off from it. say what you are thinking and what you are feeling. Ignore the comments and move on. Dont play to those games.




:thumbsup:

[deborahbroadus]

Isn't that sort of like squashing, from its inception, the idea that this may not be the best idea?


But who is the judge and jury to decide without the whole community that this is not the best idea? Even laws were made by each group having a representative. I do not think the implementation of the idea would be "communism" but rather a democracy because we all would have a say.

We as a community deciding which bylaws guidelines should govern the trade because as it is, there is not much regulation right now..it is mostly people getting a bee in their bonnet and suggesting blanket laws.

[Roy Munson]

I do not think the implementation of the idea would be "communism" but rather a democracy because we all would have a say.I never EQUATED your idea with communism. I just said it was a great idea AS IS communism. See? The way that your defensiveness skewed your perception of my post is a great example of how we're not ready yet for your idea. We'd all have to be "on the same page", and that's never going to happen...

[deborahbroadus]

I never EQUATED your idea with communism. I just said it was a great idea AS IS communism. See? The way that your defensiveness skewed your perception of my post is a great example of how we're not ready yet for your idea. We'd all have to be "on the same page", and that's never going to happen...

Oh boy...the discussion would go farther if we wouldn't imput motives to each other.

I wasn't defensive (I didn't feel defensive) I was explaining why I didn't think the comparison was apt. I am sorry if I didn't get my meaning clear.

[LakesideBoas]

While I agree and have admitted so in the thread on Alan Hall that, right now, this (Fauna) is the best thing there is.

I am sure at it's very inception when Rich first dreamed up the idea there were those who said it would never fly, that he was wasting his time and money and he should just scrap it before it got started. How many times do we hear today that this site is going to fail? In fact didn't Rich have a bet with someone that this site would be history by now?

While Deb's ideas may seem as far-fetched as the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy right this moment it does not mean that the topic is not worthy of discussion just because some feel the goals are not attainable.

Deb is not proposing a change to this site that I read, she is proposing a wider ranging plan that could/would perhaps benefit all herpers. Is it worth discussing? We won't know until we discuss it, will we? :)

Deb, if you are serious about this, grab a note pad and write your proposals up like a business plan. Stand by what you propose, but don't let others destroy your convictions unless they prove to you just why something won't work. Let them show you others ways to accomplish the same goals, if necessary. There is a wealth of experience here in this hobby---tap it. Most people when approached in the right way are more than happy to discuss just about anything.

If your plan does have merit you will know soon enough.

I don't understand all this negativity first shot out of the hole. I was away from here for a while so maybe I see things a bit different than some who are here every day.

I see a lot of hand-wringing and pissing and moaning, but in the end, the "bad guy" ends up being able to continue his or her misdeeds elsewhere as we have no avenue for prosecution. Not always, but you have to admit it does happen a lot.

All of the major groups/organisations in this country have one thing we do not. Lobbyists and a solid presence in politics. Look at the NRA and the HSUS & PITA (our biggest detractors).

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. We're not squeaking very loudly at all. We sit back and lay down for legislation that hurts us because we have no outlet except word of mouth, in some cases.

Maybe it's time to let the 'Debs' of this hobby make their proposals. It can't hurt to listen.

[Roy Munson]

Oh boy...the discussion would go farther if we wouldn't imput motives to each other.

I wasn't defensive (I didn't feel defensive) I was explaining why I didn't think the comparison was apt. I am sorry if I didn't get my meaning clear.

Yep, I agree. And that's part of my point. I was comparing the QUALITY of the ideas, not the content. I inferred defensiveness from the tone and content of your other recent posts in this thread, and I attributed your misunderstanding of my point to this perceived defensiveness. Likewise, our perceptions may differ on what qualifies or disqualifies someone to be a "bad guy" or a "good guy". Heck, we may even have the same qualifications, but perceive what is presented to us differently. Until we can all agree on the qualifications and communicate and comprehend on the exact same "wavelength", we may have to settle for the warts-and-all manner in which the BOI and Fauna already operate.

[WebSlave]

I have been informed that Rich doesn't need a garage-breeder know-it-all coming in and causing trouble and as I hate nastiness, I woudl prefer to drop it.

It appears someone has taken it upon themselves to feel they can speak for me in this matter. I don't recall giving anyone that authority, nor do I wish to have anyone believe they have that right. I certainly have not spoken with ANYONE about this, so it appears that somebody is being overly presumptive about what I may think about this issue.

Who ever it is, you may want to take their opinions with a rather LARGE grain of salt.

Quite frankly, I am always willing to listen to ideas. That's as long as the issuer fully understands and accepts that for one reason or many, not everything is feasible or even desired to be implemented.

But I reserve that decision for myself, and have not delegated it to anyone else.

[Dennis Hultman]

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus
I have been informed that Rich doesn't need a garage-breeder know-it-all coming in and causing trouble and as I hate nastiness,

Deborah, I scanned through the other thread and didn't find any post like that. Was that posted somewhere or was it sent to you?

[LakesideBoas]

I was just thinking of the Chicago NARBC I went to this year. How many of us were gathered in one place and nary a candidate in sight right before a local election? If we can get politicians (Brrr and yuck but...) to look at us as potential supporters (read voters) and not a stepping stone to knee jerk reactionary legislation we may just see a light at the end of our future's tunnel that isn't a train...

[deborahbroadus]

Deborah, I scanned through the other thread and didn't find any post like that. Was that posted somewhere or was it sent to you?


I am sorry, it was not posted. It was said in the chat room.

[deborahbroadus]

I was just thinking of the Chicago NARBC I went to this year. How many of us were gathered in one place and nary a candidate in sight right before a local election? If we can get politicians (Brrr and yuck but...) to look at us as potential supporters (read voters) and not a stepping stone to knee jerk reactionary legislation we may just see a light at the end of our future's tunnel that isn't a train...


:iagree: Now you are seeing where this can go. :yesnod:

[LakesideBoas]

:iagree: Now you are seeing where this can go. :yesnod:

Okay, so how are we going to get there? You wanted a discussion, let's discuss this already! :)

Is everyone mute? Can't post unless you are shooting somebody down? How about being proactive instead of reactive? We've gotten pretty good at reacting, unfortunately by the time you can react in most cases it's too late to make a difference.

Let's hear some ideas folks.

I try not to think too much, it hurts when I do that. I've been doing a lot of thinking in this thread, I think I have a migraine! :D

[Wilomn]

I think that opening this can of worms is something I'd like as little to do with as possible.

I don't want to be regulated. I don't want to be obligated. I don't want anyone deciding what I can and can't do with my animals, though I already do to some extent.

I don't play well with others, especially those who can't be trusted. Does anyone know of any politician that can be trusted?

Unless one of our own is put in a position to benefit the rest of us I see nothing but bad coming out of this. More regulation, more permits, more restrictions, more inspections, more more more.

Now, if one of US, a fellow herper in good standing with the entire herping communinty wants to step up and take the lead, then maybe I could get behind that. But from what I've seen here so far and what I've witnessed in the past, I gotta say it's a long uphill pull and good luck to ya.

[deborahbroadus]

One thing I can do..is start a list of regulations/a proposal or something...not sure of the term yet..it will develop as others see that we can be proactive on this. That is not about changing Fauna..but a wider approach on dealing with scammers, diseases...before the government does it for us.

Tomorrow's a slow day (holiday cruise for employees, but I am not going), so I'll try to have something by COB tomorrow...just a beginning and then everyone can jump on the bandwagon and suggest changes or ideas. We'll learn.

The ideas are in the developmental stages.

[deborahbroadus]

I think that opening this can of worms is something I'd like as little to do with as possible.

I don't want to be regulated. I don't want to be obligated. I don't want anyone deciding what I can and can't do with my animals, though I already do to some extent.

I don't play well with others, especially those who can't be trusted. Does anyone know of any politician that can be trusted?

Unless one of our own is put in a position to benefit the rest of us I see nothing but bad coming out of this. More regulation, more permits, more restrictions, more inspections, more more more.

Now, if one of US, a fellow herper in good standing with the entire herping communinty wants to step up and take the lead, then maybe I could get behind that. But from what I've seen here so far and what I've witnessed in the past, I gotta say it's a long uphill pull and good luck to ya.

That can of worms is going to be opened eventually I don't see anyway to prevent it. As I see it, our options now are to stand by and wait for the fall out as new diseases come and spread or more scammers get a good foothold over here, or be proactive about the situation.

I know no one knows me, I am not suggesting that I take the lead on this (heaven forbid..I am DEAF it would be more difficult for me than for someone else). But how are we going to encourage anyone to take the lead if we can't even lead ourselves, if we don't give them something to work with...a starting point, so to speak?

The idea as not to let the politicans take control...but to use them to get our regulations passed before they created more for us.

Does anyone know of the ADA? Before it was passed disabled had to tolerate a lot...a bunch of them got together and in time and with a lot of work..eventually the ADA was drafted and passed.

[deborahbroadus]

Alicia (Moo) reminded me of this: http://www.pijac.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=225 . I am not sure just how effective they are? Lots of people haven't heard of them and as far as I know their proposals aren't laws it's voluntary and scammers aren't going to abide by these rules. If I am wrong, someone correct me.

Any suggestions?

[varnyard]

Alicia (Moo) reminded me of this: http://www.pijac.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=225 . I am not sure just how effective they are? Lots of people haven't heard of them and as far as I know their proposals aren't laws it's voluntary and scammers aren't going to abide by these rules. If I am wrong, someone correct me.

Any suggestions?

Most true blue scammers don't abide by any rules, it is pretty much, anything goes. :ack2:

[LakesideBoas]

A true lobbyist would BE one of us. What I was saying is that as a group we are not organised enough to get OUR voices heard by those that can (and DO) make a difference in our chosen fields--politicians. The guys that listen to the biased and nauseating hypocritical vomit and detritus that leaves the lips of the representatives of organizations like PITA and the HSUS---THEIR lobbyists.

Without organization we're just pissing in the wind. We're ALREADY regulated to a fair-thee-well, Wes, it's too late to complain about it.

[KelliH]

Tread lightly, Deb, my friend, tread lightly... BTW, PJAC is a great organization that we have been members of for many years.

[LakesideBoas]

If we can get behind the folks in PIJAC that could be our rallying point to target future legislation against us. I haven't kept up with their manifesto, although I was under the impression when it first started that lobbying was one of their ultimate goals.

In a multi-million dollar a year business like this one it's a shame we can't even get on the same page to protect the very thing that we rely on to feed us and clothe our children (in some cases).

Perhaps PIJAC can be our leg-up in the political arena. We could do something as novel as become active and ask them if this could be a likely scenario.

I'm starting to think that we are so comfortable whining about the fact that our diapers are dirty we don't care if they get changed or not.

[KelliH]

It would be easy to ban a person from advertising here if their trader rating or GGC went below a certain level What would be so hard about that?

[Wilomn]

Some of us have opted for other than diapers.

Don't go by me, I'm just not much of a group person.

[KelliH]

I miss changing diapers. I really do.

[LakesideBoas]

You say your are a member of PIJAC, so perhaps you could get the word out about them to the rest of us. I am going to hit their site and do some reading.

I don't think you are seeing the "Big Picture" here in this thread...or I am completely lost here (quite likely!).

I am not talking about anything to do with this site, although Rich has many good ideas (and he has some stinkers too :) ). If Rich chooses to flush the true turds in this place down the proverbial toilet he can do it and God Bless him!

We need to have our voices heard to prevent just what has happened and continues to happen to us with knee-jerk reactionary politics.

It's pretty scary that I have to jump through hoops like a circus animal to keep some of the pets I would really like to but anybody who is physically able can contribute to the propagation of this species.

[Dennis Hultman]

Alicia (Moo) reminded me of this: http://www.pijac.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=225 . I am not sure just how effective they are? Lots of people haven't heard of them and as far as I know their proposals aren't laws it's voluntary and scammers aren't going to abide by these rules. If I am wrong, someone correct me.

Any suggestions?

PIJAC? Who are they?
Just kidding...

Just about most breeders (of any animal) that have been around even for a few years should know who they are.

PIJAC, has actually been the only voice to stand up to many animal rights groups pushing new legislation here in CA and in many other states.

They were able to provide enough pressure to table proposed legislation in this state that would have taken many rights away from mammal breeders this year. That bill will come up again next year.

[varnyard]

Ahh yes, politicians, opinions, diapers and regulations, what else is needed to make the world go around? ;)

[Cat_72]

It would be easy to ban a person from advertising here if their trader rating or GGC went below a certain level What would be so hard about that?

Some folks don't have a GGC at all......and what level of trader ratings is "too low"? Newbies would start at zero, so it would have to be a negative number, of course....but then, it is always possible for trader rating abuse to happen, and someone to get a negative rating truly not deserved. I believe it has been said that once a rating is in place, it will not be changed. How far below zero do you go to offset these? Or then there's those like Matt Graybeal and Chris Johnson, who both had exceptionally high trader ratings, yet were still ripping people off...

Then of course, there is bound to be those who will say that the "bar" was set too low, they already had, say, a -1 trader rating, it's OUR fault that we let them still advertise here, and now they got ripped off because of that...

:shrug01:

[LakesideBoas]

Ahh yes, politicians, opinions, diapers and regulations, what else is needed to make the world go around? ;)I know that you were just making a 'funny' so don't think I'm griping at you because I'm not.

It's attitudes reflective of thoughts like this, whatever our respective niche is in the reptile world, that keeps us from being able to not only regulate ourselves, but to keep the politicians from regulating us.

Every time a sneaky, underhanded, 'out-for-his/her-own-agenda' politician gets a rider snuck into a bill and it passes, it erodes just a little more of our freedoms.

Heck, maybe I'm preaching to the choir? It sure got quiet around here when the tough replies got posted and questions were asked.

I guess I get tired of listening to people, not just here in our little community, but everywhere (pretty much) gripe moan and complain about the injustice of the day yet looking at me like I fell out of a tree when I ask if they have a solution or recommendation for fixing said perceived injustice.

I guess when our Founding Fathers included our right to free speech they neglected to mention that speech isn't all we should rely on to accomplish our goals. You think they got this country to be an independent entity recognized by the crown by sitting around whining about how unfair their lot was?

NO. They went out and did something about it. They may have done some of the wrong things in accomplishing their objective, but the fact remains they actually DID something.

I guess the question each of us has to ask ourselves is are we willing to become active and involved, even if in just a peripheral way, or will we be content to sit around our collective tables whining about how much freedom we used to have when we used to be allowed to own reptiles while someone else works to prevent that very conversation?

Perhaps I am naive and should just go crawl back in bed and pull the covers up over my head. If I can't see it then it can't really be true, can it? :(

And people wonder why I drink...

[Lucille]

They went out and did something about it.

There are many ways to effect changes and you are right, in order to keep freedom, participation is required.
One mistake many people make, is to in their own minds, undervalue what they can do.
Many of the folks here are extremely verbal behind a keyboard but may feel they don't know where to start or what to say in person, in order to help keep our hobby viable.
Politicians are not only in Washington, they are everywhere and likely in your own area and there are many ways to talk to them that do not involve formal appointments and an adversarial relationship.
Find out who your local representatives are and work on seeing them in a setting that is not formal, maybe a school fair or local barbecue or church function.
Go, and get them involved in a talk about reptiles. Do they have kids? Maybe an offer of a little pet gecko might do wonders to bring the hobby to them in a real way. Develop and maintain a friendship and be on hand to give advice and support should they decide to have a reptile in their home.
Each person here has value as an ambassador for the reptile hobby, and taking the time to bring that hobby to others, being proactive, it easier than trying to wrest owning reptiles back in an adversarial situation where it has been taken from you.

Don't care for those ideas? What are yours? It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and write out a scathing one sentence putdown of the efforts of others. It's hard to build ideas, coalitions, develop plans that are effective. Keeping freedom is hard work. Losing freedom is easy, all you have to do is nothing..

[LakesideBoas]

Good thing I couldn't sleep! (The blanket over my face made it really hard to breathe).

I actually have a very good working relationship with many of the more openminded politicians in the area. Once most folks get over their initial shock their natural curiosity kicks in and they almost can't help themselves; if they happen to be here they Will inevitably ask to see and/or (for the more daring) hold something they viewed as a pest not more than an hour before.

Leopard Geckos make excellent ambassadors! I don't know of anyone who has left this house that didn't at least make an exception for them. Must be that 'smile'.

Perhaps that is why in this county there are no restrictions on anything but venomous (permit required, although not terribly expensive it is difficult to meet the requirements) and crocodilians(sp?) over 6 feet (again, permit required). All of the herpers that I have met in this area are cordial to and sometimes friends with the DNR guys (heck they probably went to school together). I think that makes both 'sides' a tad bit more open-minded.

If I walk across the street (really!!) I'm in another county and they prohibit all 'constrictors' (their interpretation is No Boas and No Pythons) I would hate to tell them I've actually witnessed a little baby corn snake constrict it's prey before...rolls eyes and grins...

I should apologize for my bluntness in posting, although I stand behind the words themselves and would never expect anyone to do something I was not prepared to do myself.

Right now I am reading about PIJAC (even though I have donated in the past) like most of us I am guilty of not really knowing what this group of us is all about. Sounds pretty good to me so far. I am also drafting a letter (really rough right now) pertaining to this thread (or at least the gist of it) I am not going to mention Fauna to them as Rich doesn't need the extra headache, he has more than enough I believe!

I do indeed get tired of some of the "hand-wringing" people that I know running around clucking that "The sky is falling!!!" so I tell them if they're so worried about it go get an umbrella already!

Deb mentioned something about posting more in depth tomorrow (today-LOL) so I am looking forward to see what she has come up with. It is my hope that we can all get something positive out of this even if it's something small.

[KelliH]

You say your are a member of PIJAC, so perhaps you could get the word out about them to the rest of us. I am going to hit their site and do some reading.

PIJAC is more about our rights to keep animals, they don't really do policing of who does and does not, and good guys/bad guys.

Kat I understand your point about the GGC's (being that you have to pay for one basically) and the trader ratings but the point you made about TSE and Matt Graybeal is really the problem. It just kills me though the way people here bitch and moan about JeffB over at kingsnake allowing "bad guys" to continue advertising there via classifieds when this site is just as bad about that!

:shrug01:

[deborahbroadus]

I don’t know how I forgot about PIJAC. To be honest, when I first decided to make this Ball Breeding a LLC business, my finance counselor brought this organization to my attention. At that time, I read though the document and got the impression that it applied to big businesses with real facilities and I hadn’t reached that point yet (the document is filed away with my Business Plan for the day that I take this home-based business to the next level *if ever*).

According to PIJAC: Membership is for the following categories:
• Companion Animal Supplier
• Retailer/Groomer
• Manufacturer
• Distributor
• Manufacturers Representative
• Affiliate
1. Retailer - a business engaged in the sale of pet supplies, services or livestock to the pet consumer. This business must maintain a store front or commercial facility that is separate from a place of residence. Apparently that effectively eliminates some of us that operate our own home-based, Internet businesses.

2. Hobbyist - an individual who breeds companion animals for personal pleasure, not for retail sale

As Kelli said, this organization is not about enforcement, but voluntary compliance. Where do we fit in (some of us)? How do we make our voice heard if we are not in these categories? How can we more effectively police our sector of the reptile community? *I know that word gives out bad vibes, but seriously we are in effect policing ourselves now, albeit ineffectively.*

That said; there is no need to recreate the wheel, most of us already follow their “Standard Operating Procedures Guidelines” more or less, so as I see it, we are looking for some ‘controls’ to make laws (similar to the “Lemon Law” that was passed not too long ago when used car salesmen continued to scam unwary buyers into buying lemons-cars) so that buyers have more recourse in getting legal reparation when they are scammed, and make it more difficult for scammers to operate as a result. Here’s one option: http://politics.wikia.com/index.php?title=Propose_a_Law (tongue-in-cheek). At the present, I don’t know what good this will do, having never tried it. ;)

I then found this site: http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/pdf/hidta_ocdetf.pdf it would/could be the template from which we drew the format to create our own performance monitoring/ performance laws (for lack of a better term). This could be suggested to PIJAC as a subsidy by a representative (showing a united front of the small business/hobbyist).

The options are:
• A subsidy of PIJAC overseeing the small hobbyist?
• Set up a representative (vote) and lobby and create proposal with guidelines that covers the “home-based” reptile business element.


For those worried about the "what if"
*What if someone lies on another?
*What if someone posts a false report?
*What if a more popular person decides to target a competitor?

There may be a way to set up some automatic scoring system (if we can create software that tracks our animals..we may be able to get funding to create software for this purpose). For instance, using the traffic allegory again, when we rack up a certain number of points our driver's license is automatically suspended (per court..etc). Now to prevent abuses...(not all abuse can be prevented..there is still the random cop that is just looking to make his quota) it's largely automatic..you get a ticket, you pay, or you come to court and explain why you believe that the ticket is wrong (facts not excuses) an impartial judge listens to the evidence and either warns you (you may still have to pay a fine) or suspends your license based on how many previous warnings/tickets that you have racked up.

The system of control doesn't have to be based on the good guy emblem system..that does have the potential to be abused, but on original posts by buyers presenting their side of the story same as we always have....I am still brainstorming...

[deborahbroadus]

New group lobbies against Internet fraud
By Dibya Sarkar, AP Business Writer | July 26, 2007

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/07/26/new_group_lobbies_against_internet_fraud?mode=PF

WASHINGTON --Well-known companies such as Dell Inc., Yahoo Inc. and Marriott International Inc. are lobbying Congress for tougher laws targeting online scammers who profit from their brand names.

United as the Coalition Against Domain Name Abuse, 10 companies have hired the law firm Alston and Bird LLP to persuade federal lawmakers of the need to crack down against those who claim Web addresses, or domain names, that include -- or even resemble -- a legitimate company's trademark.

The coalition estimates that so-called cybersquatting costs companies worldwide more than $1 billion annually in diverted customer sales and enforcement expenses...


I think this is applicable because it shows how other communities (in this case the internet owners;websites) banded together to lobby for stricter controls. And I must say that I do think that scammers actions hurt reputable breeders moneywise.

[deborahbroadus]

http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812,669828,00.html

DULLES, VA - Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - In an important new chapter in the fight against spam, America Online joined with Virginia lawmakers and Internet industry leaders to unveil a much-needed, timely new weapon in the war against spammers: a strengthened state law that allows for the criminal prosecution of spammers with penalties that include jail time, asset forfeiture, and fines. The unveiling of the new state law comes on the eve of the first-ever Federal Trade Commission (FTC) forum on spam, to be held in Washington, D.C. April 30-May 2.

The new anti-spam statute (SB 1139/HB 2290) now gives law enforcement the ability to bring felony-level prosecutions against spammers who use AOL's Virginia-based email servers to send spam to AOL members in violation of Virginia?s Computer Crimes Act. Other companies whose email servers are located or based in Virginia - such as Verizon, RoadRunner, and UUnet - will be able to benefit from the tough anti-spam provisions of the new law and also refer cases for criminal prosecution.....


They did this for SPAM..what can we do for SCAMS?

[deborahbroadus]

Some kind of Mission Statement, Purpose....

More tweaking is needed : )

Scammer Coalition

The cyber universe is an amazing place, and those who navigate its waters are met with many surprises. Unfortunately, they are not always pleasant, as those who have become victims to Internet rip off artists in the Reptile Trade have discovered. It is not an exaggeration to say that millions of people will be enticed by false information and scams each year.

The Consumer Watchdog of the Internet
Although this cyber “wild west” somewhat mirrors the “real world” where good and bad coexist, the Reptile Scam – Scammer Coalition hopes to stack the deck in the favor of the former. As a watchdog consumer advocacy group, the Coalition promises to warn the public about unethical behavior, counterfeit schemes, con artists, bogus schemes, illegitimate operations, and underhanded franchises (and their owners/operators.) It will also give updates on the status of publicly-available claims information (as researched by volunteers).

The Coalition will also attack conspiracy theories, separating the true from the false (again, using their network of international members) by gathering information to effectively weed out the “fakes” through “buyer beware” warnings. Thus, those involved in false advertising will be “outed” and, hopefully, “ousted” as well by the reptile consumers who are tired of their poor sales, business troubles, wrong product, franchise troubles, stock swindling operations, business corruptions, lack of product delivery and unfulfilled promises. The Coalition believes that lawful business owners and honest individuals should always be willing and able to spot the World Wide Web chameleons that have caused the legitimate small Reptile owners/breeders troubles.

Exposing accounts of Fraud, Deception, Dirty Business Schemes
Through personal anecdotal evidence, the Coalition will expose accounts of truly deceptive, “dirty” business schemes. From details of horrible service and support to the misleading ads and emails by scammers, the Coalition will keep personal testimonies in a master file to be used as resources,

The Coalition believes that the key to stopping cyber thieves is to educate the public. Thus, people can avoid falling into high pressure sales traps, fraudulent activities, and fake businesses. Through prevention education articles and essays given by PIJAC, alerts, and press releases, the Coalition will be able to call consumer attention to any scams where liars and cheats are preying on the consumers of Reptile web products and services. Their feeling is that if the con artists can use the Internet for evil the advocacy group can use it for good.
Advice will pepper the Coalition website, including rip off “red flag” alerts (aka, what to watch out for, such as hard sell approaches and poor response time.) As mentioned above, articles such as “How Small Time Hoodlum Scammers Operate” and “How Did An Online Business Violate Your Trust?” will be available to visitors. The bulletins will be engaging and truthful; they may also spark follow up bulletins about unhappy customers’ bad experiences, financial rip-off stories, unhappy consumers, unhappy businesses, suppliers and international organizations. The advocacy program is determined to put a dent in Reptile cyber crime.

Learning Franchise Resource for Victims of Scams, Fraudent Companies with Poor Business Ethics
The Coalition will also be a resource for learning to those unhappy clients who have already been defrauded by liars. Though for most victims of cyber abuse, it’s difficult to even accept the fact that they’ve been conned into buying products or services that were never delivered, it’s critical that they come forward. Even if their stories are agonizing to relate, they can never achieve emotional (and fiscal) closure without “fessing up.” After all, we’ve all made mistakes. The community will respond to a sheepish, “I fell for their lies” with a robust, supportive, “They lied to me, too! But I took action, and here’s how you can get those scammers, too…!” Our consumer advocacy program is intended to foster this kind of “we’re in this together” mentality.
Although there are consumer laws and statutes in place to “protect” individuals from scams by rip-off operators, people still fall for shady business dealings every day. And when they do, they often feel like “fools.
For those who agree with the Coalition’s “get your head out of the sand” attitude, the Coalition hopes to be a clearinghouse of information for consumers, businesses, and advocates. The Coalition cannot give definitive data on whether your case violates franchise laws, securities laws, business laws, consumer laws, corporate laws, international laws or case laws, but they can provide links to news sites and your state, country, or international government agencies. The Coalition hopes that information on scammers who are distributing fake information or operating online scams (which, ironically, are the same old scams that have been around for millennia) will be exposed even faster.

Latest Alerts on Buyer Beware warnings, Fraudent Internet Businesses
Through the dissemination of current events related to poor business ethics and misleading advertising, the Coalition expects to become the homepage to those interested in making sure they can safely make purchases or do business on the Internet. After all, when a person is actively involved in reading about a scam on the net, he or she is less likely to fall for it. The related alert emails and “buyer beware” warnings should make many feel more comfortable globally buying and selling reptiles, goods and services.
In the future, the Coalition foresees forming ties with other consumer-reptile advocacy groups around the globe. Together, they can more efficiently battle spamming, scamming, and phishing. The more persons who receive the Coalition’s information, the better it will be for legitimate online businesses. After all, one bad experience involving an Internet scam can color a consumers’ entire view of the Internet.

Your Co-operation needed
But the Coalition cannot operate alone. It needs your help. By visiting the reptile, consumer advocacy coalition’s website, you can start your journey on becoming savvy about the ugly truth that is online swindling. And when you start to learn about hard sell techniques through the words of cheated people, you’ll be motivated to tell everyone you know. It’s the best and greatest use of the World Wide Web. Yes, cyberspace can be dangerous, but it can also be a powerful mechanism for change. Therefore, the Coalition asks that you devote some time to ensuring that you are an informed consumer; research products and services thoroughly before choosing to buy or partner. It may be hard to turn down something that sounds like such a “sure thing”, but recall the old adage that money doesn’t grow on trees. Nor does it suddenly appear in your email inbox from people you’ve never heard of before.
As the world of cyberspace begins to police itself, it will become harder and harder for thieves to commit corrupt or deceptive practices. Yes, some will also fall for false information hidden under the guise of a “don’t miss this one” opportunity. But the more people that the Coalition can reach, the fewer who will wake up broke one morning with the realization that they fell for the Internet scams operated by online liars and cheats.

[Seamus Haley]

Once I stopped being angry at the sheer audacity it took for a person with a whole two years of reptile keeping under their belt to tell everyone else they were "doing it wrong." and started waiting for the meat of these brand spanking new innovations... I've gotta say, it was pretty hilarious.

Deborah... your master plan was to create a website where people could post antecdotal evidence that would inform potential consumers of bad guys? And to add to it some more pages for posting general tips to avoid the problems?

Man, I'm sure glad that you decided to get involved and shake things up with your radically different approach that has never been tried before.

[critical bill]

Deborah... your master plan was to create a website where people could post antecdotal evidence that would inform potential consumers of bad guys? And to add to it some more pages for posting general tips to avoid the problems?

Man, I'm sure glad that you decided to get involved and shake things up with your radically different approach that has never been tried before.

rotflmao

[Gary O]

deborahbroadus

I have not read the whole thread. I am only on page four. But never let others control you. You have every right to state your opinion. Just becuase others do not agree or some are you know what does not make you wrong. NOT AT ALL.

What you are wanting to do would not be easy. But like the saying goes. Great things do not come easy.

really, some people think they are above others. Instead of all working together to make this hobby great. There are some great people in this hobby that love everything about it. Then there are some that just want to one up everyone.

Continue to do what you love. ANd you will be fine.

If you like this idea . Plan it out lets see if somethign can come of it.

The GGC thing is cool IMO. I use it. I have it on my site now. The thing is getting the word aout about it. That would be a GREAT start.

[Lucille]

Once I stopped being angry at the sheer audacity it took for a person with a whole two years of reptile keeping under their belt to tell everyone else they were "doing it wrong." and started waiting for the meat of these brand spanking new innovations... I've gotta say, it was pretty hilarious.

Deborah... your master plan was to create a website where people could post antecdotal evidence that would inform potential consumers of bad guys? And to add to it some more pages for posting general tips to avoid the problems?

Man, I'm sure glad that you decided to get involved and shake things up with your radically different approach that has never been tried before.

Yes, the ideas are close to home. I see a person is standing up for what she thinks is right, and some of those ideas mirroring what others have thought also.
Perhaps that validates them.
There is no harm in discussing ideas, Lord knows we in the reptile industry and hobby need to stay together and make the reptile hobby stronger to resist being regulated out of existence.

Gary, I thought your post was right on, and well said. Deborah, to borrow a great phrase "Do what you love, and you will be fine".

[deborahbroadus]

Once I stopped being angry at the sheer audacity it took for a person with a whole two years of reptile keeping under their belt to tell everyone else they were "doing it wrong." and started waiting for the meat of these brand spanking new innovations... I've gotta say, it was pretty hilarious.

Deborah... your master plan was to create a website where people could post antecdotal evidence that would inform potential consumers of bad guys? And to add to it some more pages for posting general tips to avoid the problems?

Man, I'm sure glad that you decided to get involved and shake things up with your radically different approach that has never been tried before.


Seamus,

My plan/idea would have taken software programming, law making, and to get to the law making before you can even approach anyone you have to have some kind of plan...a Vision statement or mission statement, a list of backers and a website devoted to doing watch dogging and enforcing and that only. You have to have the framework of a business plan or set up to back up the laws you want others to make.

But to clarify before your poisonous words find root in others:
1. I have never once implied that anyone is doing anything wrong.
2. This is not about snake keeping or lack of it, it's about possibly forming a consortium working together to create a watchdog group that has more power backed by laws which we currently lack except for the general spamming/scamming laws and most of them aren't created for or aimed at reptile scams and thus may not be tailored to be specific. (I work for the government, I know a bit about law making and can find out what I don't know).
3. I have never once implied that I would "shake things up" so do not project(once again) your behaviors onto me. I am simply somone that loves the trade and was getting disgusted with the constant flow of bad guy posts from people that seem sometimes to have few other alternatives, and I wanted to see if more could be done than simply cussing out the bad guys.

I am also more of a proactive person than a reactive person; this is my personality (except when my hormones act up) :rofl:

It's also not something that I could do alone, with your many years of breeding you would certainly know more than I about breeding..so all assistance would be appreciated. OR..we can just let it die...it really makes no difference to me like I told you..the idea finds support or it doesn't. Either people want to be active or they don't want the status quo to change. I can't force anyone to do anything so your venom is misplaced.

[deborahbroadus]

and don't let me forget..you gotta have the people to fill positions who are capable of handling the authority to do these things. :)

[deborahbroadus]

deborahbroadus

I have not read the whole thread. I am only on page four. But never let others control you. You have every right to state your opinion. Just becuase others do not agree or some are you know what does not make you wrong. NOT AT ALL.

What you are wanting to do would not be easy. But like the saying goes. Great things do not come easy.

really, some people think they are above others. Instead of all working together to make this hobby great. There are some great people in this hobby that love everything about it. Then there are some that just want to one up everyone.

Continue to do what you love. ANd you will be fine.

If you like this idea . Plan it out lets see if somethign can come of it.

The GGC thing is cool IMO. I use it. I have it on my site now. The thing is getting the word aout about it. That would be a GREAT start.

Ok, I have gotten my second wind, it was rocky for a while. Thanks for the encouragment Gary. I, too, like the GGC, it's on my site. I was thinking it's almost like having our own personal Better Business Bureau, and as others may have suggested that was one of the ideas too..to market the GCC more intensively..not to create anymore work for anyone...to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem. THAT would have been the simple suggestion.

But we would still have needed laws to have the autority to do more..I want someone like the Bulldog out there..going to repo snakes and giving them back to their owners!

Right now, I am just tossing ideas out there. This is not something one person can come up with because then a million and one people would pull it apart and no one would accomplish anything. This is a team work effort so if the idea dies..it dies.

For me, it wasn't about having a NEW innovative idea (there is nothing new under the sun) it was about seeing if teamwork could be generated to do something more proactive than spilling over with venom.

I am sure that there are a lot of people that like to play "one upmanship." I met one before that followed my posts everywhere in one forum just to say I was a "know it all," "stupid" or whatever was on his mind that day...I finally realized that he had issues that I could do nothing about and eventually others saw this too.

[hhmoore]

Having looked over the posts in this thread, I still find myself coming back to the fact that you seem to be suggesting that we strive for legislation. Having battled the legislative process a few times, I have mixed feelings about that. Your statements seem to indicate that you want to be proactive, and create/mold the laws before the governing bodies do it for us.
On one side, there is the acknowledgement that IF there is to be more legislation, that would be the way to go. We, as reptile enthusiasts, are viewed more as freaks and exceptions. Our rights to pursue our hobby are far overshadowed by the "health and well being of the general public". That reptiles are dangerous is a foregone conclusion...just look at all the news stories about people being bitten/injured. The irresponsible behavior of reptile keepers (escaped, abandoned, or released animals, inappropriate shipping, etc) casts us all in a negative light. While WE appreciate and enjoy reptiles, there is still a pervading prejudice based (like most prejudice) upon fear and ignorance. Once one of THEM gets it in their head that there is an issue, the typical result is a steam rollered action that we are powerless to control or steer.
Personally, I am leery of seeking legislation. By stepping into the spotlight, I think we would be risking many of the freedoms that remain. I'll admit that I am not particularly clear on the type of laws you think we need to have in place...but I suspect that once the legislative bodies are looking at us, they will find more, lol.

I am not trying to be discouraging, but anywhere there are consumers (and $ to be had) there will be people trying to capitalize on the market. I think it would be great to actually make people accountable for their business practices, and to eliminate the scammers (dishonest, scum, ripoff artists).
<grrr - duty calls, gotta run...I'm sure I'll lose my train of thought before I get back>

[shrap]

to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem.

So you are saying that people like myself and Wes and other good folks who have chosen not to participate in the GGC, for whatever reason, should be boycotted? That they should be FORCED into joining or be ostracized for not doing so?

Dont forget, Bill Leverton, MG Reptiles and Top Shelf Exotics (Chris Johnson) were all GGC members at one time. Just having that certificate means nothing about who you are.

[Jim O]

Seamus,

My plan/idea would have taken software programming, law making, and to get to the law making before you can even approach anyone you have to have some kind of plan...a Vision statement or mission statement, a list of backers and a website devoted to doing watch dogging and enforcing and that only. You have to have the framework of a business plan or set up to back up the laws you want others to make...
Any "plan" that involves "laws" to further regulate our hobby/business is in and of itself totally ridiculous to the point of stupidity. Once politicians get their hands in things they tax and regulate it to death.

There is not even something so sophisticated in dog breeding, something that is much more common. What about medicine? Is there a national database that consumers can query that has any real meaning?

I'm sorry Deb, but you really are spinning your wheels here quoting Business 101 concepts. To compare this issue with ADA, an issue of extreme importance is silly at best. That bill and the subsequent regulations are far from the panacea you seem to envision. And they were and are written by "professionals". It did however add to the growing number of wealthy lawyers and professional plaintiffs who make a living suing for minor non-compliance issues. It also added to the number of empty handicapped parking spaces in otherwise nearly full lots (I like it because I now have a permanent placard and can always get a close up spot). Is that progress? Maybe. Do you want that in herpetoculture? I don't.


Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not be held to a high standard. That's why we have tools like the BOI and references. I can't count how many BOI threads start with "I wish I had come here first..." or "I know he had bad guy threads but he assured me that all of the issues were in the past..." or "I decided to take a chance despite the bad guy threads...".

[Dennis Hultman]

I was typing the below post and hit refresh and noticed the post from Harald. It was pretty much what I was going to state but better.

I would rather help buy a plane ticket to send Wes to knock on some scumbags door then be on the radar screen of a lawmaker.

__________________________________________________ ______

Law making and reptiles.

Just words I'm not comfortable seeing in the same sentence.

Some aspects that seem to be missing is the fact that those who don't understand this industry far outweigh those who do. Any feel good legislation or unnecessary attention brought before lawmakers has always backfired.

Yes you may be able to reach some supporters but the overwhelmingly majority of the public (including lawmakers) will not understand.

People will be horrified to know that snakes are breed in individual homes, sold online and then shipped across this country. Any laws proposed to regulate the reptile trade will eventually be manipulated into something that was not intended.
The fear of reptiles (manly snakes) is so prevalent in society I could see no good coming from it.

Given the choice of the "wild west" or a legislator looking at the reptile industry, I'll choose the "wild west".

[Lucille]

Ok, I have gotten my second wind, it was rocky for a while. Thanks for the encouragment Gary. I, too, like the GGC, it's on my site. I was thinking it's almost like having our own personal Better Business Bureau, and as others may have suggested that was one of the ideas too..to market the GCC more intensively..not to create anymore work for anyone...to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem. THAT would have been the simple suggestion.

But we would still have needed laws to have the autority to do more..I want someone like the Bulldog out there..going to repo snakes and giving them back to their owners!

Right now, I am just tossing ideas out there. This is not something one person can come up with because then a million and one people would pull it apart and no one would accomplish anything. This is a team work effort so if the idea dies..it dies.

For me, it wasn't about having a NEW innovative idea (there is nothing new under the sun) it was about seeing if teamwork could be generated to do something more proactive than spilling over with venom.

I am sure that there are a lot of people that like to play "one upmanship." I met one before that followed my posts everywhere in one forum just to say I was a "know it all," "stupid" or whatever was on his mind that day...I finally realized that he had issues that I could do nothing about and eventually others saw this too.


There are indeed people here who exist simply to pull ideas apart. Those people will kill the hobby as sure as any anti-reptile law, if we pay them any mind.
I like your ideas and your enthusiasm and vision.

[deborahbroadus]

I was typing the below post and hit refresh and noticed the post from Harald. It was pretty much what I was going to state but better.

I would rather help buy a plane ticket to send Wes to knock on some scumbags door then be on the radar screen of a lawmaker.

__________________________________________________ ______

Law making and reptiles.

Just words I'm not comfortable seeing in the same sentence.

Some aspects that seem to be missing is the fact that those who don't understand this industry far outweigh those who do. Any feel good legislation or unnecessary attention brought before lawmakers has always backfired.

Yes you may be able to reach some supporters but the overwhelmingly majority of the public (including lawmakers) will not understand.

People will be horrified to know that snakes are breed in individual homes, sold online and then shipped across this country. Any laws proposed to regulate the reptile trade will eventually be manipulated into something that was not intended.
The fear of reptiles (manly snakes) is so prevalent in society I could see no good coming from it.

Given the choice of the "wild west" or a legislator looking at the reptile industry, I'll choose the "wild west".



So you are purposing that we continue to bury our heads in the sand, and everytime some herper does something that reflects badly on the trade, we act reactively and try to prevent too much damage when a legislator gets his teeth in the story? What is your suggestion?

[Gary O]

So you are saying that people like myself and Wes and other good folks who have chosen not to participate in the GGC, for whatever reason, should be boycotted? That they should be FORCED into joining or be ostracized for not doing so?

Dont forget, Bill Leverton, MG Reptiles and Top Shelf Exotics (Chris Johnson) were all GGC members at one time. Just having that certificate means nothing about who you are.

I think this is a very good point!

IMO I think there is somethings that can be done to help but there will always be loop holes and flaws.

GGC could be free to apply
Then just leave the voting as is but this would get people to register fake names just to vote for good or bad.

There is just so much that could be flawed and it all comes down to the cheats in the hobby. Funny how that works.

Like said though. The people that scam do not care about the laws anyway or they would not scam. The best thing to do is make a clear thread with a clear title so it can be searched easily. This would be a great step also. As Some thread titles are not so searchable.

We need a place that has facts and not just argueing about other things in BOI threads. There are a few that have pages about something that is not about the topic.

Is there an easy way to get rid of the scum in the hobby? NO

[deborahbroadus]

So you are saying that people like myself and Wes and other good folks who have chosen not to participate in the GGC, for whatever reason, should be boycotted? That they should be FORCED into joining or be ostracized for not doing so?

Dont forget, Bill Leverton, MG Reptiles and Top Shelf Exotics (Chris Johnson) were all GGC members at one time. Just having that certificate means nothing about who you are.


I am not saying that at all. It would still be up to the consumer which whom he wanted to do business with.

But like the BBB those that buy from places that display the emblem have a greater recourse if something goes wrong with a transaction. Likewise, that same principal would be reflected in the use of the GGC. But like the BBB every business doesn't subscribe, but I personally try and do business with those that DO display this emblem it makes it easier to obtain customer satisfaction.

Continuing the allegory to the BBB: It's not the emblem alone. It's not just having the emblem, its the organization behind it and how they enforce/put pressure to encourage good business ethics and principles.

[Dennis Hultman]

So you are purposing that we continue to bury our heads in the sand, and everytime some herper does something that reflects badly on the trade, we act reactively and try to prevent too much damage when a legislator gets his teeth in the story? What is your suggestion?

I purpose to bury our heads in the sand?
For some reason, I actually take great offense to that statement.

I typed out a response but it wasn't very flattering and I've decided, I just don't have it in me to debate or defend my previous comments and also word my thoughts in a manner that I would be proud of.

[Wilomn]

I would rather help buy a plane ticket to send Wes to knock on some scumbags door then be on the radar screen of a lawmaker.

__________________________________________________ ______

Law making and reptiles.

Just words I'm not comfortable seeing in the same sentence.

Given the choice of the "wild west" or a legislator looking at the reptile industry, I'll choose the "wild west".


You know, a bunch of guys like me, making house calls on scumbags, would go a loooooooong way towards discouraging bad guys from doing bad things.

Guido Inc. would be something I could get behind far quicker than any sort of politician or further regulation.

[BryonsBoas]

Along with Federal regulations / laws , it WILL roll down hill to the State , County and City levels. How much regulation do you really want? In theory I'm sure it sounded good but did you consider the landslide it would create down to the local level? Some of us have little to no regulation , why would we want to paint a target on our backs?

[Wilomn]

You know deb, just because you and your pal lucille think more regulation is a good thing and that not thinking the same way you do is putting ones head in the sand, does not make it so.

Some of us have some damn good reasons for not wanting more rules and regulations and laws and taxes and ordinances and crap like that.

If you really want to help your fellow herpers, steer them here, deal honestly, don't deal with those who are dishonest, and don't believe everything you're told.

[WebSlave]

It is my opinion that ANYONE seeking out the government with the intention of creating legislation to deal with a problem is about the easiest way I can think of to prove how absolutely true is the saying "THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS".

[Cat_72]

So you are saying that people like myself and Wes and other good folks who have chosen not to participate in the GGC, for whatever reason, should be boycotted? That they should be FORCED into joining or be ostracized for not doing so?

Dont forget, Bill Leverton, MG Reptiles and Top Shelf Exotics (Chris Johnson) were all GGC members at one time. Just having that certificate means nothing about who you are.

I am not saying that at all.

It looks like that is what you are saying to me. :shrug01:

to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem.

I choose not to participate in the GGC myself, so people should not buy from me?

As far as any reptile-related legislation goes, I honestly think it is much more of a "be careful what you wish for" situation than you realize. I am not sticking my head in the sand, I simply am sick of seeing people freaking out over reptile ownership, and towns passing bans on animals they know nothing about, out of sheer knee-jerk political BS. As Bryon said, I'd just rather avoid being the one to paint the target on my own back.

[Dennis Hultman]

So you are purposing that we continue to bury our heads in the sand, and everytime some herper does something that reflects badly on the trade, we act reactively

I'll try this post again.

We as a community have taken a lot of preemptive measures right here.

Don’t presume anything with me. You haven’t a clue how preemptive I’ve been when it comes to the scum out there. Both in public and not so visible. Because I don’t agree with some of your points(legislation), I’m burying my head? I think your points are very clear. If you also take some of the other recent posts you have been making in other threads, the arguments are the same made every year since the beginning of Fauna. I guess, I’m going to fall in this category and be put out to pasture for not agreeing.

The old cliques will be losing power because of their inability to welcome newcomers and are being seen as "outdated" by those coming in. Stick around and you will see that *I learned this in Business 101*. :thumbsup:

[Mooing Tricycle]

To be honest, i have to agree with those saying that you should point people here and to the BOI to help lessen the impact on scammers and scum. This site is already going, and while the BOI can get a bit muddy at times, its still good to bring out the important information and such.

And as for the GGC like some have also been saying how they do not participate because they dont feel the need, i would buy from many of those people without hesitation.

If anything, i guess, we should be more worried about educating people on how to research who they are buying from, and helping pass along correct husbandry techniques than trying to pull in legislation. But. i just do not know enough about it to say yay or nay against such a thought though.

[Mooing Tricycle]

The old cliques will be losing power because of their inability to welcome newcomers and are being seen as "outdated" by those coming in. Stick around and you will see that *I learned this in Business 101*.


Deb, i dont think they will be losing "power" at all..

sure they may be... at first, seemingly unwelcoming and a bit cold at times... But, i have to say that they ARENT like that in the least if you take the time to get to know the individuals.

I feel, as a new person to this hobby and community, that in the time ive been here so far, ive been fairly well welcomed, and have been seriously taught many useful things that have helped me out.

These old timers have a lot to give to us newbies and i cant thank them enough for having the patience to sit there and listen to my seemingly endless repetitive questions... and... blatant noobness at times. :)

I think though, that the real problem with them being so "unwelcoming".. is that they are more willing to help a person who will listen and learn what they have to teach, (and also more willing to lighten up) if people show respect of their opinions and experience(listening to what the have to say, and look into the reasons why they are saying it)

[varnyard]

I'll try this post again.

We as a community have taken a lot of preemptive measures right here.

Don’t presume anything with me. You haven’t a clue how preemptive I’ve been when it comes to the scum out there. Both in public and not so visible. Because I don’t agree with some of your points(legislation), I’m burying my head? I think your points are very clear. If you also take some of the other recent posts you have been making in other threads, the arguments are the same made every year since the beginning of Fauna. I guess, I’m going to fall in this category and be put out to pasture for not agreeing.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus
The old cliques will be losing power because of their inability to welcome newcomers and are being seen as "outdated" by those coming in. Stick around and you will see that *I learned this in Business 101*.

You seen that too?

I also seen her response to someone when asked if they can be part of HER clique.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus: You are one of MY girls. I watch your posts; keep up the good work.

That was posted after the Business 101 comment. How nice, good for some, bad for others.

So Deborah, as long as things are done the way you think they should be, then you are willing to go along with that program? And cliques are ok as long as they are yours? And I must agree, you did say:

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus
to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem.

Give me a break...... :ack2:

[shrap]

I am not saying that at all. It would still be up to the consumer which whom he wanted to do business with.

I really do not see this statement of yours being interpreted any other way. Can you tell me if not a boycott, then exactly what did you mean by the following statement?

to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem.

But like the BBB those that buy from places that display the emblem have a greater recourse if something goes wrong with a transaction. Likewise, that same principal would be reflected in the use of the GGC. But like the BBB every business doesn't subscribe, but I personally try and do business with those that DO display this emblem it makes it easier to obtain customer satisfaction.

Continuing the allegory to the BBB: It's not the emblem alone. It's not just having the emblem, its the organization behind it and how they enforce/put pressure to encourage good business ethics and principles.

You act like being a GGC member makes it safer for the consumer to purchase from that member. It absolutely does not in any way. That is a proven fact. The biggest scam in the reptile industry was pulled off by a GGC member. Not to mention other GGC members that have proven to be some of the biggest scumbags in the industry.

You also go on to say that you have "a greater recourse if something goes wrong" when purchasing from a GGC member. Exactly what "greater recourse" did the GGC program offer people when Chris Johnson, a proud bearer of a GGC emblem, ripped them off? Or MG Reptiles? Exactly what "greater recourse" does the GGC program offer to anyone that has a problem with a GGC member?

I am not saying the GGC is a bad thing, but as a consumer it certainly does not mean a GGC member is a safe haven to buy from nor does it provide you with any recourse what so ever if "something goes wrong" when buying from a GGC member. And it certainly is not something where non-GGC members should be boycotted.

The very best preemptive thing we can do is educate the consumer. Which is what this site and the BOI is all about. Steering people here to investigate sellers before buying is a great first step.

As Gary mentioned earlier in this thread, I think one of the best improvements we can make is making thread titles easier to search. Having a very strict Business Name and/or Person Name only policy in the thread titles would help. Eliminate the good guy and bad guy and all that other stuff. Just Business Name and/or Person Name only.

My reason being is two fold. Easier searches and how many Good Guy Threads have turned out to be Bad Guy Threads? And how many Bad Guy Threads have turned out to be Good Guy Threads? The title of the thread alone can be very deceptive. Force people to go into these threads and read before they come to a conclusion.

[deborahbroadus]

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus
I am not saying that at all. It would still be up to the consumer which whom he wanted to do business with.
Shrap:
I really do not see this statement of yours being interpreted any other way. Can you tell me if not a boycott, then exactly what did you mean by the following statement?
Deborah Broadus
to encourage and educate about the GGC and see if we can turn around this trend of buying from people that do not display this emblem.
Originally Posted by deborahbroadus
But like the BBB those that buy from places that display the emblem have a greater recourse if something goes wrong with a transaction. Likewise, that same principal would be reflected in the use of the GGC. But like the BBB every business doesn't subscribe, but I personally try and do business with those that DO display this emblem it makes it easier to obtain customer satisfaction.
Continuing the allegory to the BBB: It's not the emblem alone. It's not just having the emblem, it's the organization behind it and how they enforce/put pressure to encourage good business ethics and principles.
Shrap:
You act like being a GGC member makes it safer for the consumer to purchase from that member. It absolutely does not in any way. That is a proven fact. The biggest scam in the reptile industry was pulled off by a GGC member. Not to mention other GGC members that have proven to be some of the biggest scumbags in the industry.
You also go on to say that you have "a greater recourse if something goes wrong" when purchasing from a GGC member. Exactly what "greater recourse" did the GGC program offer people when Chris Johnson, a proud bearer of a GGC emblem, ripped them off? Or MG Reptiles? Exactly what "greater recourse" does the GGC program offer to anyone that has a problem with a GGC member?
I am not saying the GGC is a bad thing, but as a consumer it certainly does not mean a GGC member is a safe haven to buy from nor does it provide you with any recourse what so ever if "something goes wrong" when buying from a GGC member. And it certainly is not something where non-GGC members should be boycotted.
The very best preemptive thing we can do is educate the consumer. Which is what this site and the BOI is all about. Steering people here to investigate sellers before buying is a great first step.
As Gary mentioned earlier in this thread, I think one of the best improvements we can make is making thread titles easier to search. Having a very strict Business Name and/or Person Name only policy in the thread titles would help. Eliminate the good guy and bad guy and all that other stuff. Just Business Name and/or Person Name only.
My reason being is two fold. Easier searches and how many Good Guy Threads have turned out to be Bad Guy Threads? And how many Bad Guy Threads have turned out to be Good Guy Threads? The title of the thread alone can be very deceptive. Force people to go into these threads and read before they come to a conclusion.
Oh wow..while I can understand totally where you are coming from, apparently my post wasn't as clear as I thought. Let me see if I can clarify even more.
But like the BBB those that buy from places that display the emblem have a greater recourse if something goes wrong with a transaction. Likewise, that same principal would (WOULD not IS) be reflected in the use of the GGC. THEN I went on to say that But like the BBB every business doesn't subscribe, but (STILL REFERRING TO BBB) I personally try and do business with those that DO display this emblem it makes it easier to obtain customer satisfaction.

Continuing the allegory (how it could be if set up like the BBB/could BE..not IS) to the BBB: (This reference is to the BBB) It's not the emblem alone. It's not just having the emblem, its the organization behind it and how they enforce/put pressure to encourage good business ethics and principles.
I am/was not saying that the GGC made it safer. My references were to the BBB. I have marked my passages above and perhaps it is more clear now? Not that your points are not valid..I just wanted to make sure that I was clear...and finally the word "encourage" is not comparable in any way to "Boycott" in the sense that I am using it. The BBB does encourage people to shop from sites displaying the emblem but it in no way means boycott anyone that does not. It is simply their way of saying we can help more if the person is one of our members.

The following statement is a very good improvment on the first suggestions offered previously in other discussions and threads. It is a start in improving the current situation and is more proactive than waiting for someone to be scammed and then reacting.
As Gary mentioned earlier in this thread, I think one of the best improvements we can make is making thread titles easier to search. Having a very strict Business Name and/or Person Name only policy in the thread titles would help. Eliminate the good guy and bad guy and all that other stuff. Just Business Name and/or Person Name only.
My reason being is two fold. Easier searches and how many Good Guy Threads have turned out to be Bad Guy Threads? And how many Bad Guy Threads have turned out to be Good Guy Threads? The title of the thread alone can be very deceptive. Force people to go into these threads and read before they come to a conclusion.
The very best preemptive thing we can do is educate the consumer. Which is what this site and the BOI is all about. Steering people here to investigate sellers before buying is a great first step.
What would you suggest as being the first step to reach more people in order to steer them to the BOI? We have read many posts that said, "If I had known about this."

[deborahbroadus]

Having looked over the posts in this thread, I still find myself coming back to the fact that you seem to be suggesting that we strive for legislation. Having battled the legislative process a few times, I have mixed feelings about that. Your statements seem to indicate that you want to be proactive, and create/mold the laws before the governing bodies do it for us.
On one side, there is the acknowledgement that IF there is to be more legislation, that would be the way to go. We, as reptile enthusiasts, are viewed more as freaks and exceptions. Our rights to pursue our hobby are far overshadowed by the "health and well being of the general public". That reptiles are dangerous is a foregone conclusion...just look at all the news stories about people being bitten/injured. The irresponsible behavior of reptile keepers (escaped, abandoned, or released animals, inappropriate shipping, etc) casts us all in a negative light. While WE appreciate and enjoy reptiles, there is still a pervading prejudice based (like most prejudice) upon fear and ignorance. Once one of THEM gets it in their head that there is an issue, the typical result is a steam rollered action that we are powerless to control or steer.
Personally, I am leery of seeking legislation. By stepping into the spotlight, I think we would be risking many of the freedoms that remain. I'll admit that I am not particularly clear on the type of laws you think we need to have in place...but I suspect that once the legislative bodies are looking at us, they will find more, lol.

I am not trying to be discouraging, but anywhere there are consumers (and $ to be had) there will be people trying to capitalize on the market. I think it would be great to actually make people accountable for their business practices, and to eliminate the scammers (dishonest, scum, ripoff artists).
<grrr - duty calls, gotta run...I'm sure I'll lose my train of thought before I get back>

Harald,

The first thought/idea was acually to technically create some kind of "software" (I am not technically inclined...bear with me) that could track those that actually had bad guy posts and were proven scammers to keep them from posting more ads and scamming more people this software could be downloaded on all reptile websites that provided ad space similiar to the setups that prevent or discourage spammers from posting (yes I know there are loopholes).

After metaphorically having my head handed to me (without the platter) for even suggesting such a thing, :rofl: I tried to find another route, which happened to be legislation, laws on the scammers not the reptile business. A law that would be clearly defined and one that police would only need documents to show that the person was scammed to have authority to go and talk to the scammer and either seize the animals or have the scammer ship them back immediately. In cases of diseases (ill animals shipped), they or a qualified representative (they can create a position just for this job) would go and visually check for dying obviously ill animals (yes..I do dream :o ).

I understand what you are saying. But it appears to me that people are speaking of singular personal experiences and not the general good for all? Certainly this can be approached rationally by politicans if we have a representative speak for us? Not all herpers have tattoos up the yahzoo with piercings on every orifice and outside, a big gut, balding...oops almost started talking about the politicans..(well who am I to speak..I recall the lynching years)...so I am going to leave that thread of thought alone..I certainly do understand the mindset of the small minded.

There will always be some trying to capitalize on the free market, if an idea is needed and there's money to be had, someone will have the foresight to run with it and implement it....I have seen many of my ideas taken... (before they started putting cereal in newborns milk, I was doing it against the doctors' orders..this was a time when the "law" was all babies can drink milk and milk only) Now they sell cereal to put in the newborns milk! My point is...sometimes the most far-fetched idea while it may not be viable in the whole, discussion, tweaking will usually refine and polish the idea until it's something that the majority can agree with and come together to implement.

The organizations that are currently organizations and getting money from the goverment to oversee sections that the goverment doesn't want to be bothered with..started out with an idea.

[Jim O]

There will always be some trying to capitalize on the free market, if an idea is needed and there's money to be had, someone will have the foresight to run with it and implement it....I have seen many of my ideas taken... (before they started putting cereal in newborns milk, I was doing it against the doctors' orders..this was a time when the "law" was all babies can drink milk and milk only) Now they sell cereal to put in the newborns milk! My point is...sometimes the most far-fetched idea while it may not be viable in the whole, discussion, tweaking will usually refine and polish the idea until it's something that the majority can agree with and come together to implement.
Just because someone sells something does not mean it's a good idea. They also sell cigarettes because people want them. How does a market driven demand for cereal to put in baby formula (which, btw, is a very bad idea and is thought by many medical scientists and practitioners to have increased the incidence of food allergies in children -- see http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welcome/commonproblems/food_allergies.html for some info) have anything to do with what you are suggesting? You are using a very bad idea (cereal to mix in formula) to promote your suggestions. :rolleyes:

[deborahbroadus]

Any "plan" that involves "laws" to further regulate our hobby/business is in and of itself totally ridiculous to the point of stupidity. Once politicians get their hands in things they tax and regulate it to death.

There is not even something so sophisticated in dog breeding, something that is much more common. What about medicine? Is there a national database that consumers can query that has any real meaning?

I'm sorry Deb, but you really are spinning your wheels here quoting Business 101 concepts. To compare this issue with ADA, an issue of extreme importance is silly at best. That bill and the subsequent regulations are far from the panacea you seem to envision. And they were and are written by "professionals". It did however add to the growing number of wealthy lawyers and professional plaintiffs who make a living suing for minor non-compliance issues. It also added to the number of empty handicapped parking spaces in otherwise nearly full lots (I like it because I now have a permanent placard and can always get a close up spot). Is that progress? Maybe. Do you want that in herpetoculture? I don't.


Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that people should not be held to a high standard. That's why we have tools like the BOI and references. I can't count how many BOI threads start with "I wish I had come here first..." or "I know he had bad guy threads but he assured me that all of the issues were in the past..." or "I decided to take a chance despite the bad guy threads...".

Thank you for your opinion.

I don't know, maybe I am seeing it differently; I do not think laws even MORE laws that prevent the internet scammers or at least gives an organization authority to resolve issues is "stupid." I was not thinking of more regulatory laws on the reptile trade per se..but laws specifically aimed at the scammers..selling online.

The reference to the ADA was the fact that it started out as an idea, most great things did, still do, and I am sure that others thought those that had the idea were "spinning their wheels;" a lot of people do think that it's pointless to try and accomplish anything though laws.

The ideas may be Business 101 concepts; I did graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and I am currently on haitus from getting my MA...so if you recognized the percepts..that means I learned my textbooks well. :rofl:

Since you agree that scammers should be held accoutable what's your idea? How do you think we should go about it?

[Wilomn]

In Utopia it's great.

In the here and now it's just a dumb idea.

[deborahbroadus]

I think this is a very good point!

IMO I think there is somethings that can be done to help but there will always be loop holes and flaws.

GGC could be free to apply
Then just leave the voting as is but this would get people to register fake names just to vote for good or bad.

There is just so much that could be flawed and it all comes down to the cheats in the hobby. Funny how that works.

Like said though. The people that scam do not care about the laws anyway or they would not scam. The best thing to do is make a clear thread with a clear title so it can be searched easily. This would be a great step also. As Some thread titles are not so searchable.

We need a place that has facts and not just argueing about other things in BOI threads. There are a few that have pages about something that is not about the topic.

Is there an easy way to get rid of the scum in the hobby? NO

We are on the same page. But in my opinion, laws aren't to get rid of scammers or law-breakers..but to give those that have gotten scammed a more concrete recourse of some kind..(darn, I may have to send PIJAC an email asking them how they got started, how many were on the original team and how many walls they had to break down before they could get everyone to work together.) :yesnod:

[deborahbroadus]

In Utopia it's great.

In the here and now it's just a dumb idea.


Thank you for your opinion.

[deborahbroadus]

Just because someone sells something does not mean it's a good idea. They also sell cigarettes because people want them. How does a market driven demand for cereal to put in baby formula (which, btw, is a very bad idea and is thought by many medical scientists and practitioners to have increased the incidence of food allergies in children -- see http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welcome/commonproblems/food_allergies.html for some info) have anything to do with what you are suggesting? You are using a very bad idea (cereal to mix in formula) to promote your suggestions. :rolleyes:

We are talking about IDEAS *in case you missed the point of the reference*
Thank you for your opinion.

[BryonsBoas]

I understand what you are saying. But it appears to me that people are speaking of singular personal experiences and not the general good for all? Certainly this can be approached rationally by politicans if we have a representative speak for us? Not all herpers have tattoos up the yahzoo with piercings on every orifice and outside, a big gut, balding...oops almost started talking about the politicans..(well who am I to speak..I recall the lynching years)...so I am going to leave that thread of thought alone..I certainly do understand the mindset of the small minded.

Small minded? People are small minded because they refuse to follow a narrow minded person? The more you post , the more I find to disagree with and less to respect or take seriously.

Has you broad mind exercising great trains of thought taken into account the EXTRA regulation that would stem from State , County and City once the Feds were done? The regulation from them could make it even more difficult for the average person to get into the hobby. Even to the point of making it difficult for those that just want a " pet snake ".

The drawback to the regulations you propose is the effect it will have on those that voluntarily follow proper guidelines set by mentors , friends etc and work in this industry as good guys. Your proposal could in fact , turn into mass punishment affecting those you think your trying to protect. Will the regulations thats supposed to protect us really be worth it when animals are confiscated and put down due to the EXTRA regulations that deem them unfit to be kept? No every town , city or county will adopt a permit system for every species.

Have you thought of the extra expense for permits for those that have large collections? If the permits average $10 - 25 per animal , thats a lot of change for someone to cough up to be " protected ". Keep in mind too that all this protection comes at a price so WE would be the ones to have to pay that price. What if the county , city or town decides that once a collection reaches a certain point , or those that keep hots , can no longer keep them in their house but must obtain a separate facility / building. That is by far not cheap.

Have you really sat down and moved a thought past your enormous soapbox? Have you really thought of the implications that may be involved? And don't think that once started , if you see it going down hill and pull back , that someone won't sink their teeth in it and keep it going without you.

Step back and give this more thought. We small minds can't think of everything for you.

[deborahbroadus]

Small minded? People are small minded because they refuse to follow a narrow minded person? The more you post , the more I find to disagree with and less to respect or take seriously.

Has you broad mind exercising great trains of thought taken into account the EXTRA regulation that would stem from State , County and City once the Feds were done? The regulation from them could make it even more difficult for the average person to get into the hobby. Even to the point of making it difficult for those that just want a " pet snake ".

The drawback to the regulations you propose is the effect it will have on those that voluntarily follow proper guidelines set by mentors , friends etc and work in this industry as good guys. Your proposal could in fact , turn into mass punishment affecting those you think your trying to protect. Will the regulations thats supposed to protect us really be worth it when animals are confiscated and put down due to the EXTRA regulations that deem them unfit to be kept? No every town , city or county will adopt a permit system for every species.

Have you thought of the extra expense for permits for those that have large collections? If the permits average $10 - 25 per animal , thats a lot of change for someone to cough up to be " protected ". Keep in mind too that all this protection comes at a price so WE would be the ones to have to pay that price. What if the county , city or town decides that once a collection reaches a certain point , or those that keep hots , can no longer keep them in their house but must obtain a separate facility / building. That is by far not cheap.

Have you really sat down and moved a thought past your enormous soapbox? Have you really thought of the implications that may be involved? And don't think that once started , if you see it going down hill and pull back , that someone won't sink their teeth in it and keep it going without you.

Step back and give this more thought. We small minds can't think of everything for you.


Sigh...thank you for your opinion.

[varnyard]

Dang Bry, you must of missed this part J/K :) :

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus: The ideas may be Business 101 concepts; I did graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and I am currently on haitus from getting my MA...so if you recognized the percepts..that means I learned my textbooks well.

I don't know about everyone else, but I sure don't have a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration 101. :rolleyes_

I can't even get close to recognizing the percepts of that. And if I had an MA on my haitus, I would probraby go see the doctor pretty fast.

That was a joke, just trying to lighten the mood. :)

That said, I think the reptile world is regulated enough, it is getting worse every day. IMO, it does not need any extra push.
I think Bryon and JimO summed it up pretty well, it is only going to make it worse for all of us.

[BryonsBoas]

No , I didn't miss it. LOL , I was actually going to suggest a partial refund since the piece of paper she's patting herself on the back over is leaving her short.

Lets look at China for sec....

Wins the bid for the next Olympics BUT on the condition that they clean up their air. China's answer to that is shut down entire production facilities instead of pushing for clean air regulations.

American jobs are lost by the hundreds and thousands due to moving to countries with little or no regulation.

Microsoft brought attention to themselves by every means possible. Now they get slammed by every country under the sun and has eyes all over them.

I'm not using these as a direct comparison to the proposed idea here. Its just a comparison as how the Government Mind works. An idea gets put on the table , its voted on by those WE elected that see a furtherance of their own agenda and it either passes or fails. The unfortunate thing is the tie ins and ratifications and all the extra bells and whistles that gets put on it by those seeking furtherance of their own agendas to get their votes. Without looking at the extras tied in if it passes , it sounds wonderful until..... you realize something thats harmful to our hobby was snuck in to get the votes.

Even if all you were looking for is federal guidelines , regulations , laws to stop scammers , it puts us on their radar. All it would need is a few reptile haters or supporters of the Humane Society of America to request a few add ons to get their vote and the hard regulation starts.

Deb , you did know that the HSOA is trying to sway Congress to pass a bill that allows them to dictate what kind of pet you can have right? Do you think your proposed idea wouldn't give them something else to use against us? You did think this out throughly before bringing it to the table? You do realize that folks in big business with the same kind of paper you have take all this into consideration right?

Regulation of one aspect has generally led to regulation of another aspect. To this point all I've seen Deb discuss is at the Federal level. I'm guessing the idea of the impact it would have at the State County and City levels never occurred to those that don't have small minds. Yes I did find offense to that comment since I don't have an expensive piece of paper to back up a half assed idea and I'm forced to use research and common sense.

The big question here tho is...

Who wants to be responsible for folks being forced to loose their collections due to over regulation cuz somebody said " HEY , LOOK AT US" ?

People are small minded because they refuse to follow a narrow minded person?


Has you broad mind exercising great trains of thought taken into account the EXTRA regulation that would stem from State , County and City once the Feds were done?

Will the regulations thats supposed to protect us really be worth it when animals are confiscated and put down due to the EXTRA regulations that deem them unfit to be kept?

Have you thought of the extra expense for permits for those that have large collections?

Have you really sat down and moved a thought past your enormous soapbox?

Have you really thought of the implications that may be involved?

Those would be questions , not opinions. Thank You for not answering them. Silence speaks volumes.

Heres a few more for you to not answer.....

Who is going to teach the cops what a true illness in reptiles is?
Will they need vet training?
Who covers the expenses for the new offices to be opened , staffed and supplied?
Who sits down and teaches the law makers the reptile industry so they write the proper laws?
Who stops the extra regulation by the State , County and City?

Who protects us from the ignorant?

[deborahbroadus]

Sigh..I didn't answer them because it appeared clear to me that you were just trying to "score." You took a statement out of context and got offended when it wasn't aimed at you, and the rest of the post just seems geared not to encourage teamwork, but to shoot someone down. Nothing I can say would satisfy, so why try?

But to clarify: You are asking for a completed tied up, wrapped with ribbon plan, what I offered are ideas to be discussed, refined and improved on. I showed how some people are approaching similiar situations and a possible mission statement.

If I were to do all the work, give a full worked plan and present it, still no one would be satisfied. :rofl:

But good post, it reminds me of Bush's campaign though fear. :rofl:

[shrap]

One thing I have not grasped since I read it the first time is this, what does business 101 and degrees in business have to do with consumer fraud and criminal justice? The principles for one just dont apply to the other.

As I said earlier, the biggest defense you have against getting ripped off is to educate yourself about any company or person you plan on doing business with. That is just plain common sense and exactly what every consumer fraud and protection agency from the attorney generals office on down will tell you. Research a company before you give them your money.

This does not only apply to the reptile industry but every industry there is. I dont care if it is home repairs, auto repair, buying a house, buying a car, buying a PC, investing in the stock market, a cell phone plan, etc, etc, etc. Research before you buy, know what you are getting into and spend your money with a reputable entity with a good track record. It is a simple thing to do yet so many fail to do so or as in this case with Deb, they try to make things more complicated than it needs to be.

Simply educate yourself and research before you hand over your money. It will eliminate 98.9% of all scammers.

[deborahbroadus]

One thing I have not grasped since I read it the first time is this, what does business 101 and degrees in business have to do with consumer fraud and criminal justice? The principles for one just dont apply to the other.

As I said earlier, the biggest defense you have against getting ripped off is to educate yourself about any company or person you plan on doing business with. That is just plain common sense and exactly what every consumer fraud and protection agency from the attorney generals office on down will tell you. Research a company before you give them your money.

This does not only apply to the reptile industry but every industry there is. I dont care if it is home repairs, auto repair, buying a house, buying a car, buying a PC, investing in the stock market, a cell phone plan, etc, etc, etc. Research before you buy, know what you are getting into and spend your money with a reputable entity with a good track record. It is a simple thing to do yet so many fail to do so or as in this case with Deb, they try to make things more complicated than it needs to be.

Simply educate yourself and research before you hand over your money. It will eliminate 98.9% of all scammers.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything..and no application with this thread..a simple retort to someone that said my ideads/concepts were Business 101 and I thought that was amusing.

If the biggest defense against getting ripped off is research, that's the biggest defense against any kind of hurt done on the victim be it scamming, or any other crime. If it is so simple why do we need laws? Why can't eveyone just research before everything? It may prevent all the murders, (extreme example) and other kinds of crimes. My point is that sometimes more needs to be done.

Now I have read all the posts and a lot of them have good points..but if you don't want more laws, if you are advocating doing nothing at all and hoping that the radar of those that don't like reptiles passes us over, then good luck. Maybe it will.

If as Bryon said, we are already on the radar...let's keep very quiet...maybe they'll go away.

[ravensgait]

Thank you for your opinion.

I don't know, maybe I am seeing it differently; I do not think laws even MORE laws that prevent the internet scammers or at least gives an organization authority to resolve issues is "stupid." I was not thinking of more regulatory laws on the reptile trade per se..but laws specifically aimed at the scammers..selling online.

The reference to the ADA was the fact that it started out as an idea, most great things did, still do, and I am sure that others thought those that had the idea were "spinning their wheels;" a lot of people do think that it's pointless to try and accomplish anything though laws.

The ideas may be Business 101 concepts; I did graduate with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and I am currently on haitus from getting my MA...so if you recognized the percepts..that means I learned my textbooks well. :rofl:

Since you agree that scammers should be held accoutable what's your idea? How do you think we should go about it?
Deborah, Ideas are a good thing but when trying to get people on board an idea it has to be something that does a little something for everyone.

I'm not going to get into all the points of your Idea...You mention new laws will help solve our problems yet most here I think will agree that we don't need new laws. There are millions of laws in this country many contradict other laws and new laws are added all the time, so many that you can be sure that knowingly or not you break one or more every day of your life.

Last I checked it was illegal to steal from someone else IE the Scammers your talking about are already breaking laws. Many who are scammed don't do much about it and those who try find out that the amount involved ETC ETC isn't really worth Law enforcements attention so little or nothing is done.. Making New Laws wont change that, there would be just one or more new laws to add to the untold numbers that are not enforced.

You put out your Idea and asked for comments and now seem terribly upset that everyone here didn't jump for joy at your ideas and that some here have taken the time to point out the flaws as they see them in your idea.

The way I see it is making new laws would just be fluff and no answer to any of the problems we have.. Randy

[BryonsBoas]

Sigh..I didn't answer them because it appeared clear to me that you were just trying to "score." You took a statement out of context and got offended when it wasn't aimed at you, and the rest of the post just seems geared not to encourage teamwork, but to shoot someone down. Nothing I can say would satisfy, so why try?

But to clarify: You are asking for a completed tied up, wrapped with ribbon plan, what I offered are ideas to be discussed, refined and improved on. I showed how some people are approaching similiar situations and a possible mission statement.

If I were to do all the work, give a full worked plan and present it, still no one would be satisfied. :rofl:

But good post, it reminds me of Bush's campaign though fear. :rofl:

I don't run campaigns nor do I feel the need to " score ". There are folks responding to your posts with valid questions , ideas and possibilities. You either don't answer those questions or wrap yourself up in " You're trying to attack me " crap. Were you expecting everyone to jump on the bandwagon?

How are my posts encouraging no team work? I asked questions and I gave possibilities. Wasn't that something you learned in Business 101?

How encouraging is it that you give you up so easily and wrap yourself up in attacks that don't exist?

I don't think I did take a statement out of context. I think you said what you meant and generalized those that don't agree with you. YOU brought this to the table , WE are asking questions but instead of even trying to answer to answer YOU go on the defensive and call it an attack. Lets just forget that some of those that have responded have already fought regulation , that they've been around longer than both of us and have seen changes , both positive and negative. Lets overlook the remotest possibility that they may even speak from levels of experience or research that YOU haven't even touched yet.

Feel free to flop around with your idea and ignore the questions the should be asked or researched. Your idea , run with it.

If as Bryon said, we are already on the radar...let's keep very quiet...maybe they'll go away.

Where did I say we were on the radar? Taking a comment out of context is one thing , to say someone said something they didn't is quite another. I learn more and more about you with every post.

[deborahbroadus]

Deborah, Ideas are a good thing but when trying to get people on board an idea it has to be something that does a little something for everyone.

I'm not going to get into all the points of your Idea...You mention new laws will help solve our problems yet most here I think will agree that we don't need new laws. There are millions of laws in this country many contradict other laws and new laws are added all the time, so many that you can be sure that knowingly or not you break one or more every day of your life.

Last I checked it was illegal to steal from someone else IE the Scammers your talking about are already breaking laws. Many who are scammed don't do much about it and those who try find out that the amount involved ETC ETC isn't really worth Law enforcements attention so little or nothing is done.. Making New Laws wont change that, there would be just one or more new laws to add to the untold numbers that are not enforced.

You put out your Idea and asked for comments and now seem terribly upset that everyone here didn't jump for joy at your ideas and that some here have taken the time to point out the flaws as they see them in your idea.

The way I see it is making new laws would just be fluff and no answer to any of the problems we have.. Randy


Lord, will people please stop projecting and looking for a scapegoat? :rofl: OK the idea wasn't well though out!! Oh my lord!! I forgot to contact senators, and get them on board, I forgot to investigate all the current laws to see if we don't need anymore..and OH my lord, I forgot to make sure that I didn't post before I had the ribbon to wrap it up!! :rofl:

This was certainly a learning experience. :rofl: I have acknowledged that the posters have very good logical points.

[shrap]

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything..and no application with this thread..a simple retort to someone that said my ideads/concepts were Business 101 and I thought that was amusing.

Thanks for clearing that up.

If the biggest defense against getting ripped off is research, that's the biggest defense against any kind of hurt done on the victim be it scamming, or any other crime. If it is so simple why do we need laws? Why can't eveyone just research before everything? It may prevent all the murders, (extreme example) and other kinds of crimes.

Was that really supposed to make any kind of sense or be a valid point in any way? You can easily research products and companies that offer them and find out what kind of track record and consumer satisfaction rating they have. You cant research murderers or rapists or armed robbers, or arsonists, etc. You can research crime rates though and make sure you dont move to a neighborhood that has high murder and rape and armed robbery rates. Thus lowering the potential of becoming the victim of such crimes. And when it comes to fraud and getting ripped off educating yourself is the number one way to prevent it from ever happening. Go talk to your State Attorney General's office if you dont want to believe me.



Now I have read all the posts and a lot of them have good points..but if you don't want more laws, if you are advocating doing nothing at all and hoping that the radar of those that don't like reptiles passes us over, then good luck. Maybe it will.

If as Bryon said, we are already on the radar...let's keep very quiet...maybe they'll go away.

Two things here. How come in your mind the things everyone else suggests is "doing nothing" and only your suggestions are doing something?

Also, Why do you seem to think the GOV has to be responsible for making sure nothing happens to everyone? What about taking responsibility for yourself? It dont matter how many laws get passed there will always be criminals willing to break those laws.

But if we educate ourselves and do the research we can protect ourselves. That is a proven fact. A PROVEN FACT. Scammers prey on the uninformed. A PROVEN FACT. Scammers prey on those that dont educate themselves. A PROVEN FACT. Scammers prey on those that dont research a company/person before giving them their money. A PROVEN FACT. Literally 99% of fraud can be eliminated by education and research. A PROVEN FACT.

Dont take my word for it. Go to your State Attorney General's office and educate yourself.

[deborahbroadus]

I don't run campaigns nor do I feel the need to " score ". There are folks responding to your posts with valid questions , ideas and possibilities. You either don't answer those questions or wrap yourself up in " You're trying to attack me " crap. Were you expecting everyone to jump on the bandwagon?

How are my posts encouraging no team work? I asked questions and I gave possibilities. Wasn't that something you learned in Business 101?

How encouraging is it that you give you up so easily and wrap yourself up in attacks that don't exist?

I don't think I did take a statement out of context. I think you said what you meant and generalized those that don't agree with you. YOU brought this to the table , WE are asking questions but instead of even trying to answer to answer YOU go on the defensive and call it an attack. Lets just forget that some of those that have responded have already fought regulation , that they've been around longer than both of us and have seen changes , both positive and negative. Lets overlook the remotest possibility that they may even speak from levels of experience or research that YOU haven't even touched yet.

Feel free to flop around with your idea and ignore the questions the should be asked or researched. Your idea , run with it.



Where did I say we were on the radar? Taking a comment out of context is one thing , to say someone said something they didn't is quite another. I learn more and more about you with every post.

Even if all you were looking for is federal guidelines , regulations , laws to stop scammers , it puts us on their radar. All it would need is a few reptile haters or supporters of the Humane Society of America to request a few add ons to get their vote and the hard regulation starts

Oops..read too fast and took this to mean that we were already on the radar...sorry.

I haven't even read your post fully Bryon, but I am just going to say..I do not have the answers to your questions at this time. I withdraw the idea..it was not well thought out..most ideas aren't; they get better thought out as a discussion with those of like mind continues.

I am not trying to prove I am right, nor am I trying to force an idea. Like I said before, the idea stands for flies on it's own. Either enough people like it to see possibilities or they don't.

My friends started an organization with an idea..it's now called Deaf and Hard of Hearing in Goverment. It's been going strong for a while now. It was started when someone put an idea out there and people were looking at it from the perspective of "how?" "why not" "what would be the benefit?" Another organization started by friends is National Black Deaf Advocacy. We didn't have anyone saying, NO...and actually the ones that didn't want to do it..left, they didn't try and discourage others..they just left and let the group work it out for themselves whether they would succeed or fail.

I guess what I am saying is there would have to be enough people of like mind for this idea to fly and because there obviously are not then there is no point of continuing, don't you agree? Does that mean I want everyone to jump on the bandwagon and I am wrapping myself in a cloud of hurt..no. It simply means I know when it's a lost cause.

[critical bill]

Theme Music for this thread....

Worth the listen.

http://www.fart-fart.com/Sounds/Also%20Sprach%20Zarathustra.wav

[KelliH]

Hahaha...

eh screw it, I can't seem to get my FartMan movie to embed. :rofl:

[Laura Fopiano]

Theory and application are two very different things.

Let me ask this question deb, have you or a family member ever been held at gun point by federal wild life and FBI over a misinterpreted law?

Who is going to educate the so-called herp law enforcers? Who is going to pay the salaries for these people? Tax payers? Reptile keepers? The consumer? Oh that's what I want more tax's, and I get rear ended on many levels as a consumer, a seller, breeder, and keeper. WOO HOO sign me up!

How many folks in New York lost their ability to own a large boid when their "new laws" went into affect? Trying to undo a law is very unlikely. Bringing in more legislation makes my skin crawl.

I now live in Georgia and this state has some of the most backward laws ever. I can keep a native venomous animal, but, god forbid I get caught with a corn snake or hybridisation of said animal. Same with Eastern king snakes.

I am a server in a local diner in Pine Mountain, I always wear a snake neclklace to work. I had a couple get up and leave my table because I breed snakes. Does anyone honestly think that folks with that type of mentality want to help us legislate our hobby? Keep in mind that these are the same folks that have gassed tortoises in the name of protecting themselves from the timber rattlers and other snakes that live in their burrows. Eastern Indigo's also make home in those same burrows, have been gassed to near extinction in the wild, are federally protected, and now nearly impossible to obtain here in Georgia.

If education is the key to our survival, deb when are you going to get yours? Business education is great, however, I think that looking into the natural history of the animals that you want to protect and keep the scammers from prostituting would be a far better start. Education about the breed not just the breeders.

Reptile clubs and societies are a great way to start. Joining a herp club helps all of us at achieving the goals that we want.

[critical bill]

Hahaha...

eh screw it, I can't seem to get my FartMan movie to embed. :rofl:

I'm glad it made you laugh a little. :)

I'll go search the net for the fartman movies. I just love anything that has to do with a good fart. Simulated of course....unless its my own.

[Laura Fopiano]

I'm glad it made you laugh a little. :)

I'll go search the net for the fartman movies. I just love anything that has to do with a good fart. Simulated of course....unless its my own. :eek:
Careful Chuck, you could strip the varnish off a foot locker in the process!

[WebSlave]

I think a top down view is needed here. We are a VERY small constituent base and have little or no clout in politics. If we begin to become a burr under the saddle of a lot of politicians, one option that they will most CERTAINLY consider is eliminating the burr by eliminating this entire "industry". Who, push come to shove, would really care? There would be pretty much no political fallout to have to deal with, and matter of fact probably the majority of the public would just think "good riddance to those damned snake lovers."

Politicians aren't really and truly interested in helping "the people". They want to do whatever is necessary in order to get elected when the next election comes around. Helping US would not help further that goal, and in fact, could actually wind up being detrimental to their voting record. Their competitor for office would probably even use it as mud in a mud slinging fest to harp on the incumbent voting to put snakes in every house. Politicians are extremely sensitive to how things will be viewed by the majority of voters. Unfortunately, WE are not a majority.

Everyone wants this industry to get better for us all. No one wants someone to inadvertently tip over the apple cart and be the initiating factor for the unintended consequence of ending this for everyone.

[BryonsBoas]

Oops..read too fast and took this to mean that we were already on the radar...sorry.

I haven't even read your post fully Bryon, but I am just going to say..I do not have the answers to your questions at this time. I withdraw the idea..it was not well thought out..most ideas aren't; they get better thought out as a discussion with those of like mind continues.

I am not trying to prove I am right, nor am I trying to force an idea. Like I said before, the idea stands for flies on it's own. Either enough people like it to see possibilities or they don't.

My friends started an organization with an idea..it's now called Deaf and Hard of Hearing in Goverment. It's been going strong for a while now. It was started when someone put an idea out there and people were looking at it from the perspective of "how?" "why not" "what would be the benefit?" Another organization started by friends is National Black Deaf Advocacy. We didn't have anyone saying, NO...and actually the ones that didn't want to do it..left, they didn't try and discourage others..they just left and let the group work it out for themselves whether they would succeed or fail.

I guess what I am saying is there would have to be enough people of like mind for this idea to fly and because there obviously are not then there is no point of continuing, don't you agree? Does that mean I want everyone to jump on the bandwagon and I am wrapping myself in a cloud of hurt..no. It simply means I know when it's a lost cause.

Thats one of the flaws for your idea. Your using Human Rights to try to sway a completely different issue. Human rights have nothing to do with herp keeping. Its comparing apples to rocks. A politician or law maker will find a greater interest in a Human Rights issue than would a bunch of folks to keep a lizard or snake. Until you differentiate the two , your idea / argument will fail. Not that its gaining steam now.

This is one of the hottest topics in the herp industry. Its been talked about , discussed and chewed over. Those that oppose it aren't sticking their head in the sand , they don't have small minds and they aren't the old salts being pushed out of the way by a bunch of noobs that have little to no idea what they are talking about. Some of those that are covered in the blanket statements have done quite a bit for the industry and continue to do so.

We are a self policing industry , we know that , we accept that and we like it that way.

One would have to blind to not see the changes that are happening. Changes for the better I might add. They are small and subtle but they are made.

[Laura Fopiano]

Theme Music for this thread....

Worth the listen.

http://www.fart-fart.com/Sounds/Also%20Sprach%20Zarathustra.wav
I live in dial up hell and after taking 40 minutes to download that song, I believe that you Chuck, spend entirely too much time on the net....now if I could find a way to load that as my myspace song :dgrin:

[critical bill]

I live in dial up hell and after taking 40 minutes to download that song, I believe that you Chuck, spend entirely too much time on the net....now if I could find a way to load that as my myspace song :dgrin:

Sorry about that.....I forgot you guys live out in the middle of nowhere. :(

[varnyard]

I live in dial up hell and after taking 40 minutes to download that song, I believe that you Chuck, spend entirely too much time on the net....now if I could find a way to load that as my myspace song :dgrin:

I knew this thread was good for something.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Laura Fopiano]

Sorry about that.....I forgot you guys live out in the middle of nowhere. :(Oh honey, don't be sorry, it was well worth the wait. I thought you knew that my inner child was a 9 year old boy. Nothin better than some good old fashioned fart noise to make me laugh out loud. Real or sound affects, I crack up every time. Thanx for that belly laugh Chuck!

[Gary O]

You know, a bunch of guys like me, making house calls on scumbags, would go a loooooooong way towards discouraging bad guys from doing bad things.

Guido Inc. would be something I could get behind far quicker than any sort of politician or further regulation.


So how much for this service bro. I have a short list lol

[Gary O]

I must have read this wrong. The more I read of this thread the more I see things turing the wrong way.

I thought what was beng talked about was getting the GGC thing out more. and bringing more people to post on the BOI and do it in a way that could help.

I thought we were talking about self regualtion not going to the government. The hell with that to tell you the truth.

[Gary O]

As Gary mentioned earlier in this thread, I think one of the best improvements we can make is making thread titles easier to search. Having a very strict Business Name and/or Person Name only policy in the thread titles would help. Eliminate the good guy and bad guy and all that other stuff. Just Business Name and/or Person Name only.

My reason being is two fold. Easier searches and how many Good Guy Threads have turned out to be Bad Guy Threads? And how many Bad Guy Threads have turned out to be Good Guy Threads? The title of the thread alone can be very deceptive. Force people to go into these threads and read before they come to a conclusion.


That is a great idea. I like this a lot. Searching then would bring up threads on that person. It would take work from the mods though. For a good cause I would be willing to help when I could.

This is a GREAT idea IMO

[KelliH]

f we begin to become a burr under the saddle of a lot of politicians, one option that they will most CERTAINLY consider is eliminating the burr by eliminating this entire "industry". Who, push come to shove, would really care?

That is completely true. No one would give a crap, look what happened here in Texas recently with the non native venomous law? What's it going to be next, no keeping non native lizards in captivity? If that ever happens I'm moving. :(

[WebSlave]

As Gary mentioned earlier in this thread, I think one of the best improvements we can make is making thread titles easier to search. Having a very strict Business Name and/or Person Name only policy in the thread titles would help. Eliminate the good guy and bad guy and all that other stuff. Just Business Name and/or Person Name only.

My reason being is two fold. Easier searches and how many Good Guy Threads have turned out to be Bad Guy Threads? And how many Bad Guy Threads have turned out to be Good Guy Threads? The title of the thread alone can be very deceptive. Force people to go into these threads and read before they come to a conclusion.


That is a great idea. I like this a lot. Searching then would bring up threads on that person. It would take work from the mods though. For a good cause I would be willing to help when I could.

This is a GREAT idea IMO


And how would it be enforced? Legally speaking, it is not a good idea to edit thread titles, ESPECIALLY volatile ones in the BOI. Doing so makes the person doing the edit a co-author of that thread, and if such thread results in litigation, that person can be held liable for EVERYTHING posted within it.

Certainly I have no intention of exposing myself to such legal jeopardy, and I try to impress on all the moderators here the danger of such action on their own part.

So what options does that leave to make this happen? (1) It can't be done programmatically, and (2) quite obviously posting rules and expecting full compliance is foolish. (3) Deleting non compliant threads would most certainly cause more grief than it would be worth to management here.

So, again, how would it be done? I'm all for good ideas, but they have to be feasible to implement.

[Cat_72]

Perhaps this is off on a bit of a tangent, but whenever I hear talk of introducing more legislation and laws regarding reptile ownership, I think about what has happened with Pit Bulls. Literally thousands of cities and towns who have never had an issue with a Pit Bull have banned them, and not only banned them, many reserve the right to KILL any dog found within their city limits that has "Pit Bull like characteristics". So, they can pretty much seize and kill any dog that anyone could even remotely think may look kind of like a Pit Bull, whether it be one, a mix of APBT, or just a breed that has short hair and a wide snout.

Now I know a lot more people that are terrified of snakes than Pit Bulls...and I'm beginning to see more and more reptile bans creeping up already, some banning animals that will grow to be over a certain length, some banning venomous, and some just banning "constrictors" in general. All in the name of "protecting the public", just like with the Pit Bull bans. Nevermind that the people enforcing these laws know even less about reptiles than they do dogs....

Colorado declared these breed bans unconstitutional, yet Denver and Aurora (and other places there) are still killing these dogs at an average rate of 3 per day (never mind the thousands killed in the first months immediately after the bans took effect). Dogs that had never caused any harm to anyone, dogs that were family pets, dogs that weren't even Pit Bulls, but they kinda looked like Pit Bulls, and since the owners didn't have any official paperwork to prove that they weren't Pit Bulls....well, those must be killed too.

Now, we start putting ourselves out there in the spotlight, asking for more laws and regulations....do you REALLY think they are going to be passing laws to help us? Or are we going to be the next "Pit Bull owner" getting our snakes seized because the mayor's wife is terrified of these killer beasts?

[hhmoore]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread again...but I was encouraged to share my version of what would happen with a good intentioned attempt at anti-scammer regulation. In the interest of getting this done before 6am, I'll give the short versions...and only type out the part of the politician:
version 1
I see...now who is it that is breeding these snakes?
Really, and how many snakes do they have?
I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you correctly...how many was that?
In their homes?
(Now, think about the situation encountered by the Sutherlands not too long ago, and think about the ramifications to hobbyists & breeders across the country)

Version 2 (picking up at "how many?)
How do they manage to fit that many snakes into their house...how big are the cages?
Racks? Could you explain that, please?
Plastic boxes in a cabinet?
That doesn't sound like much of a life.
(imagine HSUS or PETA getting involved, with requirements for "humane" caging. kiss your racks goodbye)

Version 3
People are selling sick snakes, or misrepresenting them in various ways?
I see. Well that should be simple enough...could you show me the guidelines that cover the health of the animals?
There aren't any? That is ridiculous...there must be some kind of requirements. Health certificates? Site inspections?
Well, that's a big part of the problem then. If there are that many animals being housed in one place, there needs to be some sort of inspection to ensure that standards are maintained...and given the problem with sick animals, I think at the very minimum, a health certificate should be mandatory for shipping. After all, any other animal being shipped is required to have one.
Now, how are they shipped again?

There are more, but need I go on?

[varnyard]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread again...but I was encouraged to share my version of what would happen with a good intentioned attempt at anti-scammer regulation. In the interest of getting this done before 6am, I'll give the short versions...and only type out the part of the politician:
version 1
I see...now who is it that is breeding these snakes?
Really, and how many snakes do they have?
I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you correctly...how many was that?
In their homes?
(Now, think about the situation encountered by the Sutherlands not too long ago, and think about the ramifications to hobbyists & breeders across the country)

Version 2 (picking up at "how many?)
How do they manage to fit that many snakes into their house...how big are the cages?
Racks? Could you explain that, please?
Plastic boxes in a cabinet?
That doesn't sound like much of a life.
(imagine HSUS or PETA getting involved, with requirements for "humane" caging. kiss your racks goodbye)

Version 3
People are selling sick snakes, or misrepresenting them in various ways?
I see. Well that should be simple enough...could you show me the guidelines that cover the health of the animals?
There aren't any? That is ridiculous...there must be some kind of requirements. Health certificates? Site inspections?
Well, that's a big part of the problem then. If there are that many animals being housed in one place, there needs to be some sort of inspection to ensure that standards are maintained...and given the problem with sick animals, I think at the very minimum, a health certificate should be mandatory for shipping. After all, any other animal being shipped is required to have one.
Now, how are they shipped again?

There are more, but need I go on?

Can anyone say: Hit the nail on the head? Harald, I could not agree more, you are 110% correct.

[shrap]

Great post Harald.

[varnyard]

I got this email today, this is the regulations in action.

Hello Everyone:
PIJAC is preparing a Pet Alert for next week that will explain how this amendment has gotten to this point, and what will be going on from here.
Essentially, at the urging of a group of renegade Louisiana turtle farmers, Senator Mary Landrew D La, has snuck this amendment on an Agriculture bill that has already passed the Senate. The bill must now be reviewed by conference committees in both the House and Senate. If it passes, the President will sign it into law. We ALL need to contact the conference committee members once they are named, along with our own Congressmen and Senators - to take it up with the conference committee members. (PIJAC will provide the contact info.)
**In case you're not sure how you're reading it, These turtle farmers are openly screwing the entire reptile industry, as this amendment requires the Secretary of Agriculture to either repeal the 4 inch turtle law, or prohibit the sale of any reptile species that may pose a salmonella threat. If this passes, the Humane Society Of the United States will push harder than pit bulls for this new law to be enforced. Please get this out to everyone affected; and everyone please be prepared to read next week's Pet Alert, spread the information contained, and then act (contact your representatives) as soon as the conference committees are named. (PIJAC will keep us posted). They will need to hear it from us, and our Senators and congressmen. Or, we can all start figuring out what we'd all do after reptiles...
Marc Cantos
PS Happy Holidays

READ ALL OF IT; BABY TURTLES ARE NOT THE WHOLE ISSUE. THIS IS FROM THE CURRENT "HERP DIGEST"....


9) The Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act – Or the Louisiana Turtle Farmers Strike Again.


(Editor- Defenders of Wildlife found this snuck into the Senate Farm Bill manager's amendment that passed last week (page 48). The only information that I have at the moment, that I believe is true, is that necessary hearings between the House and Senate to iron out a single bill that both houses of congress can vote on will take place in February. As I stated I believe this is just another attempt by the Louisiana turtle farmers to legalize the sale of red-eared sliders in the U.S. Thus making it possible to buy turtles not only on the street corners of every major city in the U.S., but your local pet shop, pet chain and even Walmart. Though the Farmer’s representatives got the amendment attached to the Senate version of the FDA bill, it was removed by the House. Now the farmer’s reps are trying to attach it to the recently passed Agriculture bill. I will be sending additional information on this as I receive it.)


The following is the bill as it now stands.


TITLE __--DOMESTIC PET TURTLE MARKET ACCESS
SEC. __. SHORT TITLE.
This title may be cited as the "Domestic Pet Turtle Equality Act ".
SEC. __. FINDINGS.


Congress makes the following findings:
(1) Pet turtles less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter have been banned for sale in the United States by the Food and Drug Administration since 1975 due to health concerns.


(2) The Food and Drug Administration does not ban the sale of iguanas or other lizards, snakes, frogs, or other amphibians or reptiles that are sold as pets in the United States that carry salmonella bacteria. The Food and Drug Administration also does not require that these animals be treated for salmonella bacteria before being sold as pets.


(3) The technology to treat turtles for salmonella, and make them safe for sale, has greatly advanced since 1975. Treatments exist that can eradicate salmonella from turtles up until the point of sale, and individuals are more aware of the causes of salmonella, how to treat salmonella poisoning, and the seriousness associated with salmonella poisoning.


(4) University research has shown that these turtles can be treated in such a way that they can be raised, shipped, and distributed without having a recolonization of salmonella.


(5) University research has also shown that pet owners can be equipped with a treatment regimen that allows the turtle to be maintained safe from salmonella.


(6) The Food and Drug Administration and the Department of Agriculture should allow the sale of turtles less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter as pets as long as the sellers are required to use proven methods to treat these turtles for salmonella.


SEC. __. REVIEW, REPORT, AND ACTION ON THE SALE OF BABY TURTLES.


(a) Pet Turtle.--In this section, the term "pet turtle" means a turtle that is less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter.


(b) Prevalence of Salmonella.--Not later than 60 days after the date of enactment of this title, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Commissioner of Food and Drugs, shall determine the prevalence of salmonella in each species of reptile and amphibian sold legally as a pet in the United States in order to determine whether the prevalence of salmonella in reptiles and amphibians sold legally as pets in the United States on average is not more than 10 percent less than the percentage of salmonella in pet turtles.


(c) Action if Prevalence Is Similar.--If the prevalence of salmonella in reptiles and amphibians sold legally as pets in the United States on average is not more than 10 percent less than the percentage of salmonella in pet turtles--


(1) the Secretary of Agriculture shall--


(A) conduct a study to determine how pet turtles can be sold safely as pets in the United States and provide recommendations to Congress not later than 150 days after the date of such determination;


(B) in conducting such study, consult with all relevant stakeholders, such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the turtle farming industry, academia, and the American Academy of Pediatrics; and


(C) examine the safety measures taken to protect individuals from salmonella-related dangers involved with reptiles and amphibians sold legally in the United States that contain a similar or greater presence of salmonella than that of pet turtles; and


(2) the Secretary of Agriculture--


(A) may not prohibit the sale of pet turtles in the United States; or


(B) shall prohibit the sale in the United States of any reptile or amphibian that contains a similar or greater prevalence of salmonella than that of pet turtles.

FYI: Mike and Marshall at PIJAC's E-mail address'
mmaddox@pijac.org, mmeyers@pijac.org

[Cat_72]

That's an EXCELLENT example, Bobby.

See, these folks think they are going to push through a little innocuous tidbit to allow them to sell baby turtles (which I'm not thrilled about either, but that's another topic entirely)......and look what we see pop up:

(2) The Food and Drug Administration does not ban the sale of iguanas or other lizards, snakes, frogs, or other amphibians or reptiles that are sold as pets in the United States that carry salmonella bacteria. The Food and Drug Administration also does not require that these animals be treated for salmonella bacteria before being sold as pets.

Which of course, leads to this:

(b) Prevalence of Salmonella.--Not later than 60 days after the date of enactment of this title, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Commissioner of Food and Drugs, shall determine the prevalence of salmonella in each species of reptile and amphibian sold legally as a pet in the United States in order to determine whether the prevalence of salmonella in reptiles and amphibians sold legally as pets in the United States on average is not more than 10 percent less than the percentage of salmonella in pet turtles.

And then:

(1) the Secretary of Agriculture shall--

(C) examine the safety measures taken to protect individuals from salmonella-related dangers involved with reptiles and amphibians sold legally in the United States that contain a similar or greater presence of salmonella than that of pet turtles

:rolleyes_ Great, a new reason for them to put ALL reptile owners under a microscope.

[BryonsBoas]

It seems to me they are taking the " If we can't sell ours then we don't want you to sell yours either." approach.

[hhmoore]

The funny part is, the ban on sales of turtles under 4" was repealed/amended about 6 months agoProhibits the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) from restricting the sale by a turtle farmer or other commercial retail seller of a turtle that is less than 10.2 centimeters in diameter as a pet if: (1) the turtle is raised, shipped, and sold using methods proven to keep the turtle free of salmonella, using salmonella safety standards comparable to standards for other animals allowed for sale as pets or animal products allowed for sale as food products; (2) the FDA has approved a plan submitted by the turtle farmer or seller relating to compliance with this Act; and (3) the farmer or seller makes certain disclosures to the buyer. Sets forth required disclosures, which include: (1) information regarding the dangers that could result if the turtle is not properly handled and safely maintained, the proper handling of the turtle, and the proven methods of treatment that keep the turtle safe from salmonella; (2) a detailed explanation of how to properly treat the turtle to keep it safe from salmonella; and (3) a statement that buyers of pet turtles should not abandon the turtle or abandon it outside, but should instead return them to a commercial retail pet seller or other organization that would accept turtles no longer wanted as pets.
That happened right around the same time that FL banned (instate) sales of RES

[varnyard]

IMO, it is the first step in outing our hobby, first the turtles and then everything else.

You just gotta love folks like PETA and HSUS, they are real pros at getting things done. :angry:

[hhmoore]

Bobby.
I'm not sure what you mean by "outing our hobby". If you mean revealing our dirty little secrets, well, that cat has been out of the bag for some time. Most shows I attend requires that an informational page on the risks of Salmonella be distributed with reptile sales (the others have mentioned it as an upcoming requirement). The fact that we cannot rely upon people's common sense is well established...why should we expect them to take simple preventative measures, like washing hands after handling reptiles.
I would be mildly surprised to find that, in established collections of conscientious keepers, Salmonella is found in a high enough percentage to trip the alarms. It would, nonetheless, be interesting to review the findings if it comes to that. My personal interest in that information aside, this is an example of the course legislation can take. Keep in mind that the turtle farmers got their victory back in mid summer...so why has this continued to move forward? (see, my examples were NOT all in the interest of fun - that's the way things work)

[hhmoore]

I got sidetracked :blush:
If by outing our hobby, you mean having it pushed/regulated out of existence...there is no denying that some groups would like to see that happen. And every new law that gets passed hurts a little more, even if we don't feel it directly.

[WebSlave]

Most infections with Salmonella are traced back to dairy, poultry and meat products, but Salmonella can grow on just about any food. Chickens and eggs are particular high risk foods.


I believe the government would have better luck controlling salmonella by banning food, rather than banning reptiles...... :rolleyes_

[KathyLove]

OK, after all of these pages, I guess I have to sum up my thoughts with a LONG, LONG comment (sorry - please bear with me, and I promise the next post will be much smaller!)

I think it is great to have this discussion (thanks for starting the thread!), because the scammers, low-life dealers, and "big brother" laws do affect the rest of our industry, just as in any other industry. And I do think there are things that can be done to help. But as a libertarian, I would never vote for a new law on any subject unless I feel it is absolutely, positively, necessary. And those necessary new laws are few and far between, IMHO! I have seen too many cases of well intentioned laws with horrible consequences.

Even locally, a number of years ago, a restaurant had to close down entirely because they could not get a mandated (ADA law) elevator in their building for whatever reason. So they closed down and a number of employees were out of work. Those employees probably didn't think that was progress. Also, a local person who ran a charitable "meals for the homeless" had to shut down because she couldn't comply with all of the federal and local requirements. So the homeless went hungry - a great improvement! And that is just a couple of local examples I can think of.

The examples of drug laws, wildlife laws, and laws of every other type gone awry are so many they make me shudder to think about them. Seems to me, that in most cases, fraud and other crimes we are interested in, are already covered by one law or another. But sometimes the police (already overburdened by too many laws to enforce) just don't have the resources to go after a snake scammer. I think if we had the resources to enforce the laws already on the books, there would be little need for new laws, and we could probably easily repeal half of the laws in force at present.

But that doesn't mean we should ignore the problem. As mentioned previously, every industry has crooks and scammers. Some industries have specifically tried to be proactive in eliminating them, some rely on whatever laws are in place. It probably depends a lot on how big (and wealthy) the industry is.

I have been a member of PIJAC for many years (but off and on, depending on my income). Although they have to deal with all aspects of the pet industry, not just herps, they are our only real voice with real lobbyists. And they are always in desperate need of funds. So if you want to help in the area of proactive legislation and fighting bad legislation, either contributing, or finding ways to help raise money, for PIJAC would be a good start. This year, Wayne Hill tried to encourage membership by charging higher table rent for the expo if you are not a member. And I think some of the NARBC auctions also were to benefit PIJAC, if I remember correctly. So some are helping, but more is needed.

The scammers and "bad elements" are a different aspect of herp industry problems. As mentioned earlier, consumer education is really the best way for people to protect themselves. There are already fraud laws that should help protect people AFTER THE FACT, and if resources are sufficient to prosecute. Seems to me that places like BBB and the BOI are at the forefront of consumer education. Maybe making the BOI even better known among new herp owners could be the most important way to prevent them from falling prey to unscrupulous sellers.

I wasn't aware that so many people were avoiding the GGC label on purpose - thought it would only be a couple or so. In general, it seems that the designation is a helpful way to sort out likely good guys. Of course, a good guy can go bad. But after a fairly short time, he will be found out, and will no longer be a good guy. From my understanding, the eBay ratings work kind of like that. Most people are really happy dealing with somebody who has a great trader rating. But a few sellers purposely abused the system by selling a whole bunch of cheap stuff to get great ratings, then started a quick sale of expensive stuff that they didn't deliver, and disappeared when their rating went down the drain. But there will be abuse to any system - nothing is perfect.

So maybe if somebody has the time and energy to work on the problem, raising money to advertise this site, or spending time to advertise it and talk about it whenever you get the chance, would help raise awareness. Or go to speak at schools, clubs, wherever (as many of us have done for years or even decades) to continue to spread the truth about herps and herp keeping. Maybe there is a way that each ad on Fauna could be linked to an "in your face" search option for BOI listings about that seller. I don't use the ads here, so am not too familiar with them. But any linkage or ways of making it easy to search might prompt more searches. Maybe the sellers with the GGC could be listed first, or in a highlighted section, compared to the non-GGC (although that might imply the non-GGC are not as good).

Seems like our "instant gratification" needs and "blame somebody else" for our own stupidity attitudes now prevalent in this country make people less likely to want to spend time to research before they buy. But taking some responsibility for your own decisions and educating yourself is what the solution is all about. And we keepers and breeders, and the BOI, can be some of the best defense.

I don't know all of the answers, but I think the more it is SERIOUSLY discussed, the more people could come up with helpful ideas that DO NOT involve more big brother government oversight.

Keep the ideas coming!

[Seamus Haley]

years or even decades

Those four words sum up much of the personal issue I take with Deborah's stance. There are many other points that I may disagree with to varying degrees, but those four words really sum up what I see as being the core of the problem with her, specifically, presenting her arguments.

She's relatively new to owning reptiles and really has extremely limited experience, most of that being an investment into ball pythons. She's not particularly knowledgeable about the animals or the industry and she's sorely lacking in the investment of time, interest and effort that those who have been active longer have made. She seems incapable or unwilling of reccognizing the experience of others though; routinely dismissing anyone who tries to educate her or point her in a direction that would allow her to educate herself.

I have seen her in the chat ask a fourteen year old for advice about getting leopard geckos to drink from a rodent water bottle on the same day that she directed a post to Kelli Hammack explaining what the reptile industry was like. She has suggested in this very thread that it would be innovative if someone were to create a website where buyers could relate their positive and negative experiences with dealers. She told me she "didn't need to read old threads in the feedback forum" before she espoused a position that this site's owner and moderation team *needed* to start banning people from posing classifieds if they had *a* bad guy thread. Add to situations like those the way she can't seem to go more than three days in a row without mentioning that whatever inane point she is making should be validated by her experience of being deaf... or black... or black and deaf and her tendency to drop back to Dr Phil style pop psychology to defend her arguments rather than actually defending her arguments...

She's ignorant bad noise. She refuses to learn from those who are actually capable of teaching and will remain ignorant bad noise until that changes, if it ever does. The fact that Lucille seems so intent on making nice with her really just about says it all.

I am glad that those who have more patience and tact than I do stepped in to try to explain things. I doubt Deborah herself will understand a damn thing that's been said but there is a possibility of others who were unaware of some of the things which have been discussed wandering by and actually learning something. I tried to point Derborah herself to the information on the subject(s) that had already been hashed out and lost my patience after about three minutes and resorted to the verbal equivalent of hitting her with a rolled up newspaper and rubbing her nose in it with the hope that she'd stop going in the house. Probably should have tried crate training first.

[KathyLove]

Although I do often visit Fauna and check a few of the subforums I like (this one, the BOI, shipping, etc), I don't spend a LOT of time here. So I am not really aware of whatever Deborah (and many others) might have posted on other threads (or at least can't remember it). From what I have seen on this thread, I have to agree that I don't think her particular ideas as posted would be helpful, and some seem redundant to the BOI and fraud laws already in place. But I got the idea that she was trying to just throw some quick ideas out to stimulate thought and conversation, possibly to produce new and better ideas. But I don't know her, so I could be entirely wrong.

It is true that she is a relative newcomer to the hobby / industry compared to some of us "old-timers". But she seems to have plenty of enthusiasm! And whether or not her ideas have any merit, it does seem a good jumping off point for others to expand upon. Other newbies may read this and be inspired to start a fund raising project for PIJAC, the BOI, or maybe something else that hasn't been thought of yet (anything but new laws, I hope!!). It does seem a relevant topic for discussion though.

[WebSlave]

I really don't have a problem with someone new in the industry making suggestions or trying to come up with ideas to make things better. I have never really championed the cause that just because some people have been in the industry for a long time means they know everything there is to know about it.

But ideas are just seeds. Most will never really sprout and most others will die at various stages of growth. Others will just become weeds that hindsight will show to be thoughts better left unthought.

[varnyard]

Hi Kathy, great to see you on. :)

I guess it was my fault, she wanted to drop it the first day. I wanted to find out what ideas she had, it was in hopes that it would be something never hashed before. As it kept going in the thread, I seen it was really not worth a responce, and was going in a southern direction.

Deb, sorry I ever asked, I did not know you were that much of a newbie.

[ravensgait]

Being new and having Ideas isn't a bad thing and I bet most if not all of us have thrown out Idea's without really researching them or thinking them through. And I'd bet at one time or other we've all failed to take the advice of those who knew better.

Deb, I don't think anyone here wants to crush you or your ideas What Seamus said may come across a bit harsh but he always types it as he sees it. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't take all this as a put down take it as a learning experience.

Like Bobby I have no idea how experienced or inexperienced you are, I can't recall seeing many post of yours until the last 6 months or so and most that I've read were on the BOI.

Besides the opinions of others can be very helpful maybe you should take what Seamus, Bobby and the others here have written and learn from it.. Randy

[Lucille]

The fact that Lucille seems so intent on making nice with her really just about says it all.


I indeed like to welcome new ideas and discuss them. There is nothing wrong with proposing new ideas to the community and then having the community either accept them or reject them.
You seem to want a certain level of experience, Seamus, before anyone can even have an idea, or am I reading you wrong? How much Seamus, before one can post? 10 years? 20 years? What is your timeline so that people can express an thought whether it be good or bad?
I think those who would make big changes should research and talk; certainly every new proposal will not bear fruit, but I do think that enthusiasm and debate are good things.
In any case, I strongly believe in allowing people to have ideas and toss them out into the ring for discussion. I heard that you on the other hand Seamus told Deborah 'that Rich doesn't need a garage-breeder know-it-all coming in and causing trouble '.

[Seamus Haley]

You seem to want a certain level of experience, Seamus, before anyone can even have an idea, or am I reading you wrong?

Definitely reading that wrong.

I want people to be aware of the level of experience and education that they have and to behave accordingly when it comes to making suggestions, proposing changes or a course of action, giving advice or interacting with others. This is the quality that I find she lacks, or fails to express, when making her posts.

The quality of being able to make sound judgements on a topic come from two things, filtered through a third. Education and experience are the sources of knowledge, these are strongly linked but can also be exclusive to one another and then that knowledge is filtered through the individual- their level of comprehension, sometimes their opinions, biases and personality. If a person wishes to make a determination using their judgement, they should seek to have knowledge of the subject that is equal to the task. If they lack experience, they should seek education.

Education can be defined as an understanding of the experiences of others. Whatever the subject, unless it is an entirely new thing never before seen by human minds, there are those who have gone before, bent their efforts to furthering a set of knowledge and left their experiences to be shared by others. Stand on their shoulders, respect what they learned and ingrain that education into personal experience in order to advance understanding. Without doing that, an individual starts at zero and is left seeking answers that have already been found.

The ideas of someone with no experience and no education who is also unwilling to seek to advance themselves through the experiences of others are valueless. Often redundant, generally flawed and based in ignorance rather than understanding. Deborah has demonstrated a few times an unwillingness to learn, to advance her own knowledge before spouting off on a subject and as such, her ideas are frequently devoid of any value.

For the BOI to step to the next level, and become what it is destined to be (imho) as it is suggested...it SHOULD have a policy that no one can run ads who does not have a clean reputation..this doesn't mean sterling reputation..it means no one with unresolved issues ON THIS BOARD should be able to post ads or even be on here...we can even take it one step further and say that the main forums form a partnership..that would be a GREAT encouragement for scammers to stay on the straight and narrow. If they can leave one place and post in another place that's not going to help the community much and will still give them an avenue to scam people.

Has been hashed out. Was discussed as a generality and was frequently brought up in individual cases when users thought exceptions should be made for the bad guy flavor of the month. I told her it had already been discussed and suggested, quite politely, that she and this discussion might benefit from going through the archives to gain an education about the subject as it had been raised before. If she had that education and still had her opinion, one would assume that there was something new she felt needed to be expressed and the discussion could have progressed from that point, whatever the conclusion may have been. Instead she blatantly said that she felt no need to have a knowledge of the subject as it had already been raised and went on to make some nasty comments about "old timers" at which point I simply expressed my opinion that the opinions of someone determined to remain ignorant were useless and that she should not piss on what exists simply because it doesn't fit her idiotic concepts of utopia.

She's made several statements that were broadly dismissive of everyone who has more experience and education and knowledge than she does. She has no respect for those who have shown they deserve it, yet demands it for herself despite her lack of merits that would generate it. Respect doesn't always have to mean that her ideas and opinions are in agreement, it simply means she should acknowledge the hard won value of the experiences of others before she tells them that they're doing things wrong, have been doing things wrong and need to comply with her demands for change before anything will be set right.

I heard that you on the other hand Seamus told Deborah 'that Rich doesn't need a garage-breeder know-it-all coming in and causing trouble'.

The quote you attribute to me is inaccurate. I really wish I had the foresight to save a chat log of the entire conversation, it summed up Deborah's position in her own words in such a way that, were it made public in it's exacting detail, she'd probably be as much of a pariah as you are Lucille. For similarly valid reasons too.

[Seamus Haley]

Although I do often visit Fauna and check a few of the subforums I like (this one, the BOI, shipping, etc), I don't spend a LOT of time here. So I am not really aware of whatever Deborah (and many others) might have posted on other threads (or at least can't remember it).

I should also mention- I took those four words entirely out of the context in which you wrote them in order to adress a topic seperate from the one you were addressing. You addressed the ideas raised in the posts, I was addressing the poster.

She's been at the center of a couple dramatic schisms lately as a result of her more actively involvement on this site and I just tacked it onto her latest. She's clearly not a stupid person, all anyone needs to do is look at the clarity with which she expresses herself to understand that she's intelligent... I just sincerely wish that she would couple that intelligence with some knowledge.

As hypocritical as it may be for *me* to point it out, her approach is also lacking in tact and respect. She doesn't seem to understand the difference between "Hey, you've been doing this for X years and I haven't but you're doing it wrong. Wrong wrong wrong! Change now, do it, do it, you have to do it! I am the future, comply! Resistance is futile!" and something along the lines of "I read through what you had to say on this topic _____ and I understand your points, but I had this idea and I was wondering what you thought of it..." Of course... the second tactic doesn't work unless she actually takes the time to educate herself and makes some independant effort to validate her position before presenting it.

[The BoidSmith]

It's from new ideas that change happens. They might have to be reshaped, discussed, turned around to maybe eventually bring them to a workable form. Shooting the messenger has never been a good approach. One thing I try to avoid is to fall in the trap of the "it has been tried before and it didn't work" mentality. Sometimes I do find myself thinking along those lines and I'm grateful to be able to recognize those crippled thoughts in time, turn around and try to think from a different angle. Just remember the words of Albert, that odd-looking, white haired great physicist of the XX century: ..."Imagination is more important than knowledge"... He is also attributed the following quote: ..."Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"...He maybe purposefully left one thing out though, the power of context. Things can be repeated again exactly as before and results will change if the context or the actors change...

Thanks for challenging the more traditional thoughts Deb, and keep trying!

Merry Christmas to all!

Dan

[KelliH]

I wasn't aware that so many people were avoiding the GGC label on purpose - thought it would only be a couple or so.

Kathy-

As usual, I agree with just about everything you post (by the way, I will reply to your email at some point, but I want to take some time to do so that I don't have right this moment).

About the GGC... I DO think it is a fantastic idea. I'm sure I was one of the first to sign up. What soured me on it was that Lucille and DAND gave me negative votes when neither had ever had any business transactions with me, nor have I had any negative posts here on the BOI regarding any business transaction. So that is what soured me to the GGC because apparantly you can give someone a negative vote just because you don't like them. So I let mine expire.

[hhmoore]

Keep in mind that the turtle farmers got their victory back in mid summer
Looks like I may have put my foot in it, with that statement. Back in mid summer, I received emails from a couple of dealers I know - notifying me of the pending vote on this bill, and requesting my support (in the form of letters). Several weeks later, I noticed a bit of buzz online about the fact that it had passed...but I neglected to followup, and check for myself. The bill in question is H.R. 924, The Domestic Pet Turtle Market Access Act of 2007 (and S.924, The Domestic Pet Turtle Market Access Act of 2007)...Which was apparently included as amendment 23 to 110th Congress: S. 1082: Food and Drug Administration Revitalization Act. According to information found at http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s110-540 , it passed the Senate on May 9, and was going to the House.

[KathyLove]

"...So that is what soured me to the GGC because apparently you can give someone a negative vote just because you don't like them..."

I guess it would be nice if there was a log for comments for those who vote negatively (maybe even positively), so that potential customers could look and decide for themselves whether a negative vote was really warranted. Maybe there should be a separate tally for those who have actually done business together and those who have feelings for some other reason. I don't really know if there is a solution, or what it would be. I had the feeling that is was working for an overwhelming majority of users, but of course I have no way to know that for sure. I do see that a fair number of original GGC holders are no longer listed, but whether it is because they are out of business, found the membership more than they wanted to pay, found it ineffective, had some problem with it (as you mentioned), or wanted to let it expire for some other reason, I have no way of knowing. If there have been problems for a significant number, maybe Rich will entertain ways to make it more useful, if there are solutions to the problems encountered by its users.

Seems like the sellers with 95% positive ratings on eBay do well with that percentage. There is always the possibility of an impossible to please customer coming back to haunt you, so I don't think potential buyers would punish a seller with just a couple of negative comments / votes.

Whatever the problems, I am sorry to hear that it has not worked for everyone as well as I had hoped it would.

[WebSlave]

This has all been addressed before. There is just no way to enforce a requirement that voters have actually done business with the GGC holder. How would you do so? What proof would be sufficiently ironclad to qualify? And who would be the one to spend their time trying to determine the acceptability of such offered "proof"?

Honestly, my programmer and I are discussing an upgrade to this message board software and I have a whole list of custom coding mods to look over and determine whether or not they will go into the upgrade. Every one of them will have to be completely recoded in the new version, so I am looking at a significant cost for this upgrade. So anything not really worthwhile, either from my perspective, or from the members they were designed to be for, will likely be getting the axe. Obviously, the GGC program is one of them under scrutiny. If you all feel it is worthless, then I certainly don't need to have it here.

[Wilomn]

Rich, I think that for your average guy the GGC is a great tool. I also think that with time it will gain recognition that will make it even more powerful.

Those of us not using it have pretty sound reasons, at least to us, for not doing so. In my case it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the certificate itself, I think that's a great idea, it's just that I make myself something of a target and it's a way scumbags, liars and theives can take cheap shots at me that I can't do anything about. That's why I don't have one now.

I'd say keep it if anyone were to ask me my opinion on it.

[WebSlave]

Rich, I think that for your average guy the GGC is a great tool. I also think that with time it will gain recognition that will make it even more powerful.

Those of us not using it have pretty sound reasons, at least to us, for not doing so. In my case it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the certificate itself, I think that's a great idea, it's just that I make myself something of a target and it's a way scumbags, liars and theives can take cheap shots at me that I can't do anything about. That's why I don't have one now.

I'd say keep it if anyone were to ask me my opinion on it.

Wes, your reasons are just nails in the coffin. No reason at all why your reasons couldn't be the same for everyone one else using it (or not). Why should "scumbags, liars and theives" pick on you and no one else in the program? Unfortunately there is just no defense against it..... So I guess the bad guys win another round.

[Wilomn]

Wes, your reasons are just nails in the coffin. No reason at all why your reasons couldn't be the same for everyone one else using it (or not). Why should "scumbags, liars and theives" pick on you and no one else in the program? Unfortunately there is just no defense against it..... So I guess the bad guys win another round.
Not necessarily Rich. The scumbags that gave me negative ratings were bruce stephensen, bud mierky, neil gubitz, sal tornambene and I forget who the fifth clown was.

All of those guys were folks I had a large part in publickly outing as scumbags. For most of the GGC holders they don't play on the BOI the way I do so I don't think my situation would apply to most of them; a few sure, but not a majority.

The people who REALLY don't like me here tend to be those I've had words with on the BOI and they also tend to be less than honest. I don't think that's true for many other members here. I'm not complaining about it, I know what to expect when I play in the big kid sand box, but I don't think you should use me as a measure of the success or not of the GGC program.

I think it needs more time. If given that time I really see it as becoming a positive force in the reptile industry. I hear it mentioned on other sites and in other chats as a good thing. I wouldn't give up on this one just yet.

[Dr Owens]

Not necessarily Rich. The scumbags that gave me negative ratings were bruce stephensen, bud mierky, neil gubitz, sal tornambene and I forget who the fifth clown was.Here's the list:
brucestephenson (http://member.php?u=6942), bud mierkey (http://member.php?u=7596), CloudNine (http://member.php?u=22854), Dennis1 (http://member.php?u=12335), Neil Gubitz (http://member.php?u=840)

The list speaks for itself. :rolleyes:



I think it needs more time. If given that time I really see it as becoming a positive force in the reptile industry. I hear it mentioned on other sites and in other chats as a good thing. I wouldn't give up on this one just yet.I couldn't agree more.

[The BoidSmith]

Buying from an individual that's in good standing with the GGC gives a little more "instant" reassurance. With a few exceptions that are there (no names just to avoid unfairly leaving anyone out) the people that benefit the most from being there are those relatively new to the hobby.

Well known, established breeders have made a name for themselves and might never even choose to be there (as it's currently happening). Again, some of the exceptions we see here have done it more out of support for the site than anything else as they don't need the GGC for customers to be 100% at ease with them. That leaves us with the new ones. They might rise to the top after 20-30 good transactions and they build confidence and trust in prospective buyers. What happens from then on is anyone's best guess. Just as an example, heterozygous baby ball pythons might take 3-4 years to prove out for the first time. How many transactions will take place in that time span?

The only things that give reassurance in this hobby are [B]track record, and longevity in the business. Good transactions happening in 3-4 years time are not enough (and I'm thinking about those who want to reproduce a certain trait from babies they have purchased).

A good GGC standing can reassure you for the present time (about good shipping practices and healthy animals being sold) by then don't give you one iota of confidence about what the not so distant future might bring.

The GGC is a useful tool for honest newbies but also for those not so trustable (if not ask C. Johnson's customers), and unnecessary for the honest, established breeders.

Will time change this? Not in my opinion; the newcomers that pop into the scene will still pose the same potential uncertainty; the seasoned dealers that have obtained their well-earned reputation in the GGC will not need it anymore.

Just an opinion.

[dsirkle]

This has all been addressed before. There is just no way to enforce a requirement that voters have actually done business with the GGC holder. How would you do so? What proof would be sufficiently ironclad to qualify? And who would be the one to spend their time trying to determine the acceptability of such offered "proof"?

Honestly, my programmer and I are discussing an upgrade to this message board software and I have a whole list of custom coding mods to look over and determine whether or not they will go into the upgrade. Every one of them will have to be completely recoded in the new version, so I am looking at a significant cost for this upgrade. So anything not really worthwhile, either from my perspective, or from the members they were designed to be for, will likely be getting the axe. Obviously, the GGC program is one of them under scrutiny. If you all feel it is worthless, then I certainly don't need to have it here.
For what it's worth I found Fauna because I made my first on line animal purchase from a small breeder that displayed his GGC standing on his website. I clicked on it and it brought me to this site where I made a 2nd purchase from another good guy.I looked around and ended becoming a paid member.I too have seen the GGC mentioned on other sites as a vote of confidence as well as seeing people frequently steered to the BOI for guidance when considering making a purchase.

[KathyLove]

It is true that the GGC will be most helpful for relative newbies. BUT - even experienced, long term breeder with good reps may not be well known to newbie potential customers. But if the novices are steered towards the BOI, they will be introduced to experienced breeders as well as new breeders.

I feel the system has a lot of merit, and will increase in value with time and recognition. But whether enough people agree to be worth while to continue it is of course something only Rich can answer.

[WebSlave]

Yeah............... I guess after years of hearing so many people saying what this or that on this site is worth to THEM on the bottom line, it's been rubbing off on me. So more and more, I have to think about what something here is worth to ME in order to implement or continue it. I guess I'll know more when I get the list off to my programmer and see what the itemized expenses are going to be for the upgrade.

As for the admonition to give the GGC more time, jiminy Christmas, it's been in existence almost three years now....... :shrug01:

[Wilomn]

As for the admonition to give the GGC more time, jiminy Christmas, it's been in existence almost three years now....... :shrug01:
How long does it take to prove out a new morph?

I'd give it 5 to 7 years, let some of the youngsters and newbs get used to it, heck, find out about it at all, before I considered pulling the plug on it.

Be patient old man.

[KathyLove]

I don't know the percentage of positive and negative feedback you get about the GGC - isn't it much more positive than negative? I feel it is already helpful. But I think no matter how long it is in effect, it will become more valuable with time.

It is amazing to me how many people DON'T know about the BOI and the rest of Fauna, including GGC. I have sent MANY newbies to the BOI to check things out, as I am sure many others have. Most of the novices are totally amazed that such a thing as the BOI even exists. The more time that passes, the more people will hear about it and make use of it. Sure would be nice if it could be advertised or discussed in more places where beginners hang out - they are the ones who need to know about it.

[shrap]

Rich,

Fauna Classifieds as a whole is the most important reptile consumer site on the Net. It's not just the BOI or the GGC or the Trader Ratings, or the forums, or the people who frequent here, etc, etc, that has accomplished that. It is the combination of all them that has accomplished that. This site as a whole, not just single aspects, has allowed countless people to educate themselves and assisted them in making informed decisions.

Just because every person is not a big fan of every aspect of this site dont mean that they are not valuable aspects of the site. To me the knowledgeable people here and the BOI are the two most important aspects of this site. To someone else it may be the GGC and the Trader Rating. Someone else may think it is the Forums. What's important is that you are offering a multitude of tools that help educate all consumers regardless of which they think is most important.

I recently started working on my site again and have put the following at the top of my classifieds. It appears at the top of every section in the classifieds. http://www.sammygreggreptiles.com/forums/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=20

I really wish everyone with a classifieds section on their site would do something similar.

[The BoidSmith]

I don't know the percentage of positive and negative feedback you get about the GGC - isn't it much more positive than negative? I feel it is already helpful. But I think no matter how long it is in effect, it will become more valuable with time.

It is amazing to me how many people DON'T know about the BOI and the rest of Fauna, including GGC. I have sent MANY newbies to the BOI to check things out, as I am sure many others have. Most of the novices are totally amazed that such a thing as the BOI even exists. The more time that passes, the more people will hear about it and make use of it. Sure would be nice if it could be advertised or discussed in more places where beginners hang out - they are the ones who need to know about it.

There's no doubt that in time more people will use it. The concern I have though is that it's an incredible tool that can be used to "inflate" any new business. People post stating that they received what they paid for, a well packaged, nice looking live animal. Isn't that what it was suppossed to happen in the first place?

Individuals with good honest intentions and future scammers benefit similarly from the GGC system. Are the buyers protected? In the short term maybe so, but not in the long term. Rest assured there is more than one highly dubius business being built as we speak, and gaining credibility through the GGC.

For the newbies out there I would say use it as a safety net, but look for track record and longevity of the businesses in question as well as how they resolve their issues when they show up. Pay special attention as how they interact with you before and after the purchase.

There are some companies that show strong GGC record that I would never even dream of sending money to, conversely there are individuals not in the GGC pool that frequent this site from whom I would purchase in a heartbeat.

Best regards

[dprince]

Rich,

Fauna Classifieds as a whole is the most important reptile consumer site on the Net. It's not just the BOI or the GGC or the Trader Ratings, or the forums, or the people who frequent here, etc, etc, that has accomplished that. It is the combination of all them that has accomplished that. This site as a whole, not just single aspects, has allowed countless people to educate themselves and assisted them in making informed decisions.

Just because every person is not a big fan of every aspect of this site dont mean that they are not valuable aspects of the site. To me the knowledgeable people here and the BOI are the two most important aspects of this site. To someone else it may be the GGC and the Trader Rating. Someone else may think it is the Forums. What's important is that you are offering a multitude of tools that help educate all consumers regardless of which they think is most important.


:iagree: No site will ever make EVERYONE 100% happy. Fauna is one of the most important tools on the internet for reptile folks, both new and "distinguished." I too (as someone else previously mentioned) found fauna through a GGC on a breeder's website. It was through fauna that I started doing research on folks I might want to do business with, both now and in the future. I got to see different opinions about racks, thermostats, incubators - you name it!! - before buying. I was able to find out how to become certified through FedEx to ship reptiles. It has been very enlightening and incredibly helpful to me. I am personally *very* appreciative for this website. I think it's a huge step in the right direction to getting to a higher level of accountability from breeders and buyers alike. :yesnod:

[KathyLove]

"...For the newbies out there I would say use it as a safety net, but look for track record and longevity of the businesses in question as well as how they resolve their issues when they show up. Pay special attention as how they interact with you before and after the purchase.

There are some companies that show strong GGC record that I would never even dream of sending money to, conversely there are individuals not in the GGC pool that frequent this site from whom I would purchase in a heartbeat."


Excellent points all! If purchasers would only use all of the tools they could find here, on other forums, and all of the Internet, scammers would not have nearly such a positive cash flow!

[dprince]

"...For the newbies out there I would say use it as a safety net, but look for track record and longevity of the businesses in question as well as how they resolve their issues when they show up. Pay special attention as how they interact with you before and after the purchase.

There are some companies that show strong GGC record that I would never even dream of sending money to, conversely there are individuals not in the GGC pool that frequent this site from whom I would purchase in a heartbeat."


Excellent points all! If purchasers would only use all of the tools they could find here, on other forums, and all of the Internet, scammers would not have nearly such a positive cash flow!

:iagree: Some of what I have learned from Fauna (and other great reptile sites) is from reading everything I can and making my own judgement call. THAT is the power of this site. :yesnod: