Dealer, rescue or both?

[The BoidSmith]

Well here we go again. This thread was lost during the transition to the new server. What happens when a reptile dealer receives animals for free and then sells them for a profit. Where do we draw the line between "rescue" and an established "business". Part of me thinks that they are still providing a valuable service as they are finding homes for reptiles that otherwise might be neglected. But then I think is it fair for them to sell them at market value rather than just an adoption fee? The other issue is that of the problems related to potential diseases that might be contracted when animals from diverse origins are brought together under a same roof. I would really like to hear opinions on this one. In the past we have been very tough with individuals who begged for animals just to turn around and sell them for a profit. Was our approach inherently wrong?

Best regards,

[Mooing Tricycle]

Alright. I repost this sort of the way i wrote it last night, but in your previous one you didnt want to go into the health aspect of it, when i thought, personally that the health part had quite a bit to do with it. there are a few different scenarios that im going to mention, so bare with me. I do not think, that it is entirely wrong... under some circumstances, but under others, i do feel that it is wrong, and should not be done.

I think that if someone got animals for free that were, otherwise healthy and no issues with them and raised them for a period of years, that there isnt a problem with selling them for market value, time and money went into raising them, and the keeper deserves to make that money back, if he or she decides to sell them if they so choose.

now, if someone got animals for free that were healthy and problem free and turned around and sold them within a few weeks of getting them, then I believe that is mostly wrong( not something i would condemn a person for, but i do not agree with it). Unless the terms of those animals being given was that the person can sell them if they so choose, of course.
Otherwise, getting free animals from people and reselling them without really putting time into the care of them i dont feel is entirely right in my eyes.

If someone were to get sick animals, that they took time and money to make them better, and eventually fit for breeding ( if they were not harmed or unfit to do so from the previous illness) i wouldnt have much problem with them reselling them to recoup the vet fees. So long as the animal was 100% healthy, and fit for breeding ( if it was being sold for breeding purposes) I also think that an animal that would not be fit for breeding, but was otherwise healthy and could live a comfortable life after whatever illness, would be alright to sell, but under a stricter obligation to the animal to sell it to someone SOLELY as a pet.

If someone got free animals that were sick, and turned around and sold them without proper care just to make a quick buck. that is entirely wrong and something i could never agree with. whoever got that animal would have to pay for vet fees and there is no reason whatsoever that they should have to pay any sort of "fee" for that animal when it is sick and no proper care has gone into the animal to make it worth that fee.

[The BoidSmith]

My main concern would be that the animals would be sold right away. The expectations of the person that gives an animal away should not be held that high as to believe that the animal will remain as a pet for the receiving end. After all in this scenario I'm thinking of an established business (not even a breeder) that is in the market to buy wholesale and sell retail. The helth aspect you mention is a big one. If the dealer is selling high end animals ($$$) housing rescue animals pose a risk for the rest of the animals and for the potential buyers of those expensive animals. That was my main decision in voting that no, they should not receive rescues. On the other hand they are providing a service (relocating animals) but shouldn't they leave that for the true rescues? Because basically they are not rescuing they are obtaining free animals to sell them for a profit. I can't remember names now but there were several "fly by night" dealers that used to do that, ask for free animals and sell them for a profit. The question is if that's wrong or not. Because you can buy anything cheap (in this case peobably just for the price of shipping) like wholesale and sell it for a higher price, retail. Now the question is, how is this different. I'm struggling with the concept.

[Lucille]

I think Alicia has a good point in assessing their health and what if anything was done to subsequently help if the animal was ill; and putting that in the equation. I agree that getting a sick animal and then selling it is not a good thing to do.
Another issue to think about, and which might make a difference, is why the owner got the animals for free.

What if he is in the animal business, and had to provide food and housing for an animal dropped off by its owners because it was no longer wanted? What if he was a vet who was treating an animal and the owners simply never returned to pay the bill and get their reptile?

Receiving free animals and actively hunting them out are two different concepts also. Running ads for freebies and then selling them seems unethical to me; getting an unsought after free animal and investing time and money in its care is different.

[The BoidSmith]

Lucille,

I was thinking more along the lines of actively looking for them; like those ads we used to see in the past by bearded pets. :(

[Mooing Tricycle]

If the dealer is selling high end animals ($$$) housing rescue animals pose a risk for the rest of the animals and for the potential buyers of those expensive animals. That was my main decision in voting that no, they should not receive rescues.

The question is if that's wrong or not. Because you can buy anything cheap (in this case probably just for the price of shipping) like wholesale and sell it for a higher price, retail. Now the question is, how is this different. I'm struggling with the concept.


It really has to go back to how well you trust the person you are buying from. if you feel that a seller might not have proper quarantine practices regardless of if they are a breeder or not, DONT buy from them. it really does come back to researching your sellers when you go to make a purchase. and practicing your own quarantine procedures.
if someone is in the business of reselling wholesale animals, but also works with high end morphs one would think that most ( probably not all, i dont know many ... if really any *maybe one or two* wholesalers like this) would want to protect their investments too, but i cant say with any certainty that they would all or even most think that way.

I can think of a few who you mention that i would be hesitant, if not completely wary of buying from because of the possibility of bad practices because of things like this, or just sketchy information on where/how they acquire animals and such.

I guess it depends on your opinion in the end ( so hopefully more people will respond to this!) if its right or wrong.( i know you said, not necessarily breeders but for some reason i keep going back to it) some people swear by the small breeders, and others only swear by the larger well known breeders, others like to deal solely in wholesale because of the better prices/more animals . others might just deal with whoever's going to give them the best deal with no regard as to who it is they are buying from.

I would call a "rescue" someone who goes in, gets animals from bad homes and brings them back up to par, health wise, and either adopts them out for a fee, or sells them, you really can call it whatever you like, theres still monetary gain *recouping cash lost on vet fees* one way or the other.

though, i just thought of this... i guess you could also consider a "True Rescue", as one that operates SOLELY on donations and their own funding to care for these animals and bring them back up to par, and adopts them out for free to proper homes that want them.

and i suppose a business is a business.
one that does not solely focus on bringing the animals back up to par ( though they may still) but selling higher end stock as well as rehabilitated animals. I'm not sure if you COULD draw a line in that unless the person themselves separated it. you'd just have to hope they separated the new sick animals from their higher end stock.

[Cat_72]

I'm going to try to answer this again, and hope it makes sense....Alicia has already touched on some main thoughts I have had, but I have a few things I would still like to add.

A lot depends on the individual business, I think. Many rescues will gather fairly high (perhaps market price) "adoption fees" on all animals brought in, the amount of money they make on the animals that come in healthy and having no issues (other than the owners not wanting them anymore) goes toward paying the bills for the animals that come in in less than ideal shape, requiring extensive care and rehabilitation, and requiring vet expenses. Even at "market price", often the bills incurred with this type of animal doesn't even begin to cover the expense put in to them.....so it begins to even out in the end. To tell the truth, I believe most of the true rescues I know operate "in the red"....even charging the same adoption fees for animals that came in healthy and could be adopted out fairly quickly as opposed to those they spend extended periods of time rehabbing, they end up spending more to "fix" the problem animals than what they ever make. That's why there just aren't enough of them out there.

In order for an operation like this to seem "legit" in my eyes, however, the rescue part of it needs to remain completely separate from the "dealer" part, monetarily as well as physically. When the money coming in from the "rescues" turns into money spent to purchase more animals for resale (a PROFIT)....that's when it turns to a gray-approaching-black area for me.

The aspect of "running ads for freebies" can be a gray area as well....I see no problems in a legit rescue running ads. The trick is in determining whether or not it is legit.

[hhmoore]

Dealer, rescue, or both.
I'm going to address what I saw as a focal point, and probably meander a bit from there. For starters, I think most of will agree that as one becomes known locally for dealing with reptiles, that person periodically will be approached to take in an unwanted critter. How often that happens obviously depends on the "local reptile scene" and how well known that person becomes. The same thing happens to pet shops...people decide that they are tired of taking care of junior's pet for him and bring it to a local shop, regardless of where they purchased it.
Depending on what it is, the shop may or may not give the person anything for it (and frequently, they aren't asking for anything, they just want it gone). I pretty much dealt with things the same way - if it was something I really wanted, something I would have purchased, I might have offered them something for it. I didn't sell things that I personally took in, though I did re-home many; but the vast majority of the animals I accepted at the shop went right up for sale *provided it was outwardly healthy*. Most pet shops don't do a full quarantine on incoming animals (many do nothing), and I would be surprised to hear that a big percentage of resellers faithfully quarantined all animals before offering them for sale.
Now, it becomes a somewhat different matter when the person/business is actively soliciting unwanted animals. The impression is that this is a rescue, working for the good of the animals...not somebody that is going to turn around and sell the animal for profit. Granted, a fair portion of those giveaways will have some problems that need attention/care, but outright selling of "rescue" animals is a moral & ethical faux pas. It certainly raises some eyebrows when the adoption fee nears, or surpasses, market value...but that can happen with lower dollar animals.

There is also the matter of people posing as rescues to get breeder animals, and selling the offspring. That, IMO, is counter to the objective of a rescue. Add to that, the fact that many of those people are soliciting donations for their "rescue" and you get a situation that sets off many a legitimate breeder.
(time's up, gotta go...maybe I'll add more later, depending on what gets posted in the mean time)

[Cat_72]

but outright selling of "rescue" animals is a moral & ethical faux pas. It certainly raises some eyebrows when the adoption fee nears, or surpasses, market value...but that can happen with lower dollar animals.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, please correct me if I am....but you are saying that it is ethically wrong for a legitimate rescue to charge a fee that is near market value for an animal?

The small amount of money a legitimate rescue makes on a healthy animal often doesn't even cover what they end up putting out on animals that need extensive rehabbing.....and we all know that it's hard enough for a furry, 4-legged animal rescue to make a go of things on donations, more less a reptile rescue....how does a rescue even attempt to make ends meet well enough to care for their incoming animals if they are expected to give all of the animals away?

Don't get me wrong, I've taken in plenty of charity cases and given them away after nursing them back to health myself....but I do not claim to be a full-time rescue. I'd go broke in a matter of weeks. :shrug01:

[hhmoore]

no - I said that outright SELLING of rescue animals is a moral and ethical faux pas.
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It certainly raises some eyebrows when the adoption fee nears, or surpasses, market value...BUT THAT CAN HAPPEN WITH LOWER DOLLAR ANIMALS.

I think we are on the same page, though...

[Cat_72]

Gotcha.

Same page, just different paragraphs, I believe. ;)

[BryonsBoas]

Having known someone that took in unwanted reptiles only to loose his collection from IBD due to it , I have mixed feelings on it.

I don't have a problem with an adoption fee at or near market myself. I've had conversations with my vet about folks getting a " cheap " reptile and dropping for a heart stick instead of medical care. I think the higher fees would keep some out of the hands of those looking for a " cheap " pet that won't be a big loss if it dies or not.

Actively looking for rescues for the intent of reselling for profit. There is a special hell for those folks. The people offering up the rescues may be hoping that the animal is going to a caring person that will take the time to find it a caring home , not in an ad on the classifieds somewhere.

That special hell is also reserved for the unethical that look for cheap rescues for breeding stock.

I've seen a couple posts in the forums from members that took in " rescues " and eventually put them in their breeding plans. I'm thinking they are calling them rescues for lack of a better word or misdefining what the animal actually was. There are those that look for something for nothing tho.

I would think that someone that breeds and sells what they produce is walking a problematic line with taking in rescues and turning them out for an adoption fee or selling them to recoup / cover rehabilitation costs. Without seeing the way they have everything set up , its near impossible to know on line if its truly separated from the breeding program and could raise a few eyebrows or questions.

I know of one person that used to be a member here that advertised on craig's list for rescues and sold them in the classifieds here until she left.

I also know of an active member here that is one of two or three folks in his area that takes in rescues. If I understood the set up he used for that correctly , the rescues were vet checked , treated / rehabilitated if needed and kept off site from his collection. I don't think he charges an adoption fee but places them in good homes as pets for the cost of shipping. He would need to clarify a couple points himself tho.

If it is a good caring person taking rescues or unwanted , getting them healthy and placing them for a fee or for shipping and have it set up separate of any personal collection or business, I have no prob with that.

[WestExHerps]

I have been in this situation before. A few years ago it felt like we were a dumping ground for unwanted and mistreated animals. I have never called myself a rescue. I never outwardly looked for animals in which to take in. If someone called or posted that they had animal I would generally feel sorry for it and take it. Some of the animals taken in were healthy, most were not. The healthy ones never did help recoup money for the ones that required vet care. Once we started buying bps to breed I stopped taking in animals. Before that all we had were colubrids and most of the rescues were boids. Although we quarantined all rescues the risk factor was too high.

Personally it doesn't sit well with me when people try to find free animals to resale. However if this person was just given the animal and resells it healthy, I don't see a problem with that. When we were taking in animals most were sold under market value, but not free. And all info that I had on the animal was disclosed to the person "adopting" it.

[kmurphy]

That special hell is also reserved for the unethical that look for cheap rescues for breeding stock.

Bryon, why is this? Isn't the purpose of a rescue to take unwanted animals and get them healthy, and wanted? What's the difference between keeping and selling? In both cases you should be attempting to do what's best for the animal.
I take the whole idea of rescues with a grain of salt. The concept is great but I believe too often abused.

[The BoidSmith]

I also know of an active member here that is one of two or three folks in his area that takes in rescues. If I understood the set up he used for that correctly , the rescues were vet checked , treated / rehabilitated if needed and kept off site from his collection. I don't think he charges an adoption fee but places them in good homes as pets for the cost of shipping. He would need to clarify a couple points himself tho.

I think this is the "key". The animals need to be separated from the rest that constitute the "business". It's thus difficult to give an opinion without knowing how the animals are kept. But quarantine under a same roof and with the same personnel to me is a chimera. Does why quarantine stations are separate buildings isolated from everything else and oftentimes separated by "buffer zones". All those that quarantine animals in their own home and treat them and feeding themselves are running a huge risk.

[BryonsBoas]

Bryon, why is this? Isn't the purpose of a rescue to take unwanted animals and get them healthy, and wanted? What's the difference between keeping and selling? In both cases you should be attempting to do what's best for the animal.
I take the whole idea of rescues with a grain of salt. The concept is great but I believe too often abused.

If an animal is merely underfed or the care is lacking in details but the animals are salvagable with a little , " LITTLE " TLC then its all good in some cases.

I define " rescue " as an animal that has been mistreated , malnourished , left sickly or allowed to become sickly from lack of long term proper care. These animals should not be bred nor aquired for the purpose of breeding.

My experience with " rescue " animals as I have described has been limited but it covers dogs and various reptiles. My ex had a rottie that was mistreated for two years. She allowed her to get pregnant because she wanted a pup from the pair she had. It almost killed the female due to the mistreatment she had suffered years prior.

I've taken in vary few rescues and if they had survived I don't doubt they would have made great pets with some work. I would never have recommended breeding them. The worst was a 5 year old burm that was 3 ft and just thick enough to take adult mice. If it had lived , over time it could have gotten size on it but it would have been better as a pet than a breeder.

Your definition of a true rescue may vary from mine. My definition has been developed from weighing the worst as true rescues and the better ones from folks that activily looked for a better person to care for an animal they themselves had problems with before it took a serious down ward spiral.

I've also seen one person on here that " adopted " a pair of Hog Isle Boas that were showing obvious neurological problems. Other than that they both seemed outwardly healthy. The person that adopted them put the male up for sale and the female went into a breeding program. That type of individual should have a ticket to the special hell.

[The BoidSmith]

Well, my definition of rescue varies and it's any unwanted animal regardless of their condition or health. It's not that you are "rescuing it" from horrible conditions. It's simply a word to described an animal that is not wanted anymore and needs to be relocated.

Going back to the topic at hand yes, rescue animals have the potential of being sick. If a dealer receives unwanted animals and places them in a different room but in the same physical location he is actually risking his whole collection. There's a reason why the USDA quarantine location for cattle in IA is all fenced and not outside people are allowed to visit. The same aplies to your place or business. If anyone wants to run the risk that's fine but let's not "kid" ourselves about our quarantine procedures. Yes, you may have your animals in separate enclosures, maybe even separate rooms, but if you are the one going to and from them you better make sure you take a shower and change clothes every time you do so. I know for a fact that pet shops take unwanted animals in, I've seen it first hand. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If we take it one step further, how many times have you seen pictures of a WC ball python side by side with another morph just for comparison sake? Big No No!

[dsirkle]

I think that a dealer or breeder that could adequately quarantine (and did adequately quarantine) could move such snakes safely. Brokers do more or less the same thing after all. A small time guy seeking out rescues to sell who moves them as fast as possible without proper safeguards could do an awful lot of damage though. A good reason to utilize the BOI or have personal references

[Cat_72]

I think that a dealer or breeder that could adequately quarantine (and did adequately quarantine) could move such snakes safely. Brokers do more or less the same thing after all. A small time guy seeking out rescues to sell who moves them as fast as possible without proper safeguards could do an awful lot of damage though. A good reason to utilize the BOI or have personal references

A good point.....there are a whole lot of "brokers" that move through animals much more quickly than the average rescue would...and I would assume that the animals the brokers are pulling in (and moving out asap) are coming from various breeding operations all over the place, so by the time that animal passes into the final buyer's hands, who knows how many other snakes that snake has been in contact with or exposed to?

On the other hand....the average "rescue" snake has been in a private home for a length of time, not exposed to any other snakes, and the owner cannot (or doesn't want to) care for it any longer. They come straight from that solitary home to the rescue.

IMO, it's quite possibly going to be less risky to bring that rescue snake in than it would be to purchase one from a broker. Of course, in any case the animal should be quarantined, but I just don't see the difference in quarantine standards.....most of the rescues that ARE sick are ill because of poor husbandry and care, not anything that is going to be contracted from other snakes. Why do folks seemingly think that it is so much more risky to bring in a rescue animal than new breeding stock? :shrug01:

Again, keep in mind that I am addressing real and actual rescues, not the losers who just take in rescues just to resell them for profit....

[The BoidSmith]

I think that a dealer or breeder that could adequately quarantine (and did adequately quarantine) could move such snakes safely. Brokers do more or less the same thing after all. A small time guy seeking out rescues to sell who moves them as fast as possible without proper safeguards could do an awful lot of damage though. A good reason to utilize the BOI or have personal references

From that perspective that's not much different from the importer who sells WC animals off the plane. Some of those animals haven't been in the US more than a week! But let's face it. Even the "big boys" import rare morphs and more than likely "quaratine" them at their facilities. So I think Cat brings a good point, how different is an animal that comes from a breeder than a rescue when both are healthy? Again with what really I have a problem with is with soliciting animals and sell them for a profit. From the point of the animal itself it doesn't differ much from a recent import. The approach of the dealer that solicits animals for resale is a whole different story. :rolleyes_

[varnyard]

From that perspective that's not much different from the importer who sells WC animals off the plane. Some of those animals haven't been in the US more than a week! But let's face it. Even the "big boys" import rare morphs and more than likely "quaratine" them at their facilities. So I think Cat brings a good point, how different is an animal that comes from a breeder than a rescue when both are healthy? Again with what really I have a problem with is with soliciting animals and sell them for a profit. From the point of the animal itself it doesn't differ much from a recent import. The approach of the dealer that solicits animals for resale is a whole different story. :rolleyes_

I cannot agree more Dan, I think it is wrong as well, it is like the animal is not being rescued at all but rather colleted for profit.