New house and a home "snake" business

[jpman78]

I've been looking to move for awhile being as I'm in a fairly small house and my "herp" room is almost at compacity.

About a week ago I found a house, fit all my bills, had room for a very good sized herp room, walk-in incubator, as well as living space adequate for what I wanted in the rest of the house.

Saturday I went in to make a formal offer and was handed the covenants for the division. I immediately flipped to the "animals" section where it specifically said "pets shall not be maintained or bred for commercial purposes"

Needless to say I wasn't happy...especially considering EVERYONE (builder, selling realtor, buying realtor, etc) involved knew what I was going to do in the basement. The realtor got back to me on the exact meaning per the attorney and he said that not only couldn't I breed my snakes but they also weren't even considered pets. I laughed at this and said if it can be bought in a local pet store I'd say it was a pet.

They selling realtor said no one would ever know and being as they were in the house she doubted anyone would care....but needless to say I passed.

Since that time I have had the realtor look at atleast 8 other subdivisions and their covenants and restrictions and ALL of them disallow breeding for commercial sales......

I'm looking for some suggestions or ideas? A real estate attorney might be my next recourse.

[Wilomn]

Stop looking in sub divisions that have home owners associations.

By a home in an older or unincorporated neighborhood that hasn't got any restrictions.

[The BoidSmith]

They selling realtor said no one would ever know and being as they were in the house she doubted anyone would care....but needless to say I passed.

Yes, right. That's until you have to register with USDA as a breeder and they start to inspect you. That jeep parked in your front door is like a neon light telling your neighbors what you are doing. Wherever there are covenants you will find a similar restrictive clause.

[Wilomn]

Also any realtor who is telling you something like that is not one you want to use to represent you in a purchase that could cost you THOUSANDS of dollars if you have to go to court.

I'd dump that one and get one who has some ethics and is not just looking for a commission. Seriously.

[jpman78]

The selling realtor was the one saying "no one would ever know". My realtor said it wasn't a good idea but apologized for not finding out the specifics of the covenants.

As this is a "hobby breeding" business for me my understanding was the USDA licensing wasn't needed?

Looks like the next listings I'm going to see are going to be either much older or much more secluded. Fun Fun.

Thanks for the feedback.

[The BoidSmith]

As this is a "hobby breeding" business for me my understanding was the USDA licensing wasn't needed?

"Hobby breeding business"? Those three don't go very well together. You may want to start by defining if it's going to be a hobby or a business...

[jpman78]

I believe "hobby business" is common nomenclature for a business run based on a person's hobby and not as a sole source of one's income.

If you are asking am I attempting to make a profitable business I'd have to say yes.

Does the breeding aspect change that in some form I am unaware of?

How does this tie into the USDA? All I can find for info states that sales to individuals and not to dealers or petstores does not dictate getting a license. Is there more info somewhere I'm missing?

Any direction would be appreciate. Thanks in advance.

[jpman78]

*appreciated :)

[Cat_72]

Dan, my understanding was that the USDA/APHIS doesn't get involved with reptiles, the only time they may get involved is if you are also breeding and reselling rodents?

Currently, coldblooded animals, such as snakes and alligators are exempt from coverage under the act.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/fs_awawact.pdf

This of course doesn't say that there are no regulations at the state or local level...that you would have to check into. I believe the term most commonly used is "hobby breeder", as opposed to "hobby business", as that really is kind of an oxymoron.

And Wes is right.....I've never understood the whole "homeowners association" junk. Find someplace where the neighbors aren't encouraged to tell you what you can and can't do....and older houses are usually more well built IMO anyway. ;)

[The BoidSmith]

Dan, my understanding was that the USDA/APHIS doesn't get involved with reptiles, the only time they may get involved is if you are also breeding and reselling rodents?

Although I was thinking of raising your own rodents I also thought that if you wanted to have a reptile breeding facility for business purposes, you had to be registered as any other animal breeding facility. Is that true?

Thanks

[jpman78]

Thanks for the feedback Cathy. The realtor is still on the search but I'm assuming that it's for lots outside of subdivisions or older homes. I might have to go the "fixer upper" route.

Thanks!

[Wilomn]

Check with a title company and get maps that show city and county lines. That will show you where to look.

[WebSlave]

I think it is all a matter of scale. They don't want someone setting up a chicken or pig farm in their back yard. Nor do they want commercial traffic clogging the parking area.

When I lived in Maryland in a townhouse, from 1978 till 1991 I had snakes there and bred them, selling off some of the babies. There was a community restriction against having ANY animals other than cats or dogs, but everyone there, including officers in the association, knew I had the snakes. No one ever said a word to me. Even when the big Harlan truck would deliver rat pups every other week.

Yes, there was the risk that some jerk could just make things tough on me, but that is true everywhere. When we first moved down here to north Florida, on 50 acres zoned as agricultural, some idiot tried passing around a petition to get us thrown out of here because of the snakes. Apparently he couldn't get many people interested because we are still here. Some people called the health department, but fortunately the director of the health department at that time also had snakes himself, and his wife bred rodents. Needless to say, that didn't go very far, but it COULD have. So they are everywhere.

No matter where you move, it will be best to keep a low profile. Breeding snakes just will not make you very popular with most of your neighbors, no matter where you go. And there are people out there with nothing better to do then to try to stick their nose into your business.

[The BoidSmith]

We bought a fixer-upper ourselves a few months ago. It's an old farm house (100 years!) but in very good condition, two acres, a silo and two barns that guess what they will be turned into? The covenants are restrictive to breeding animals in that area (we are across the street from a lake) but they made an amendment and left this subdivision out of it (by mistake)....Of course I'm not planning on putting a neon sign advertising what's in there, but it's a relief.

[jpman78]

Thanks for the info.

A little more hunting and my realtor has found areas that don't restrict "breeding" explicitly but also state that you can only have "household pets". Certain legal definitions I have found state that excludes snakes, which seems very odd considering you can buy them at your local petstore.

I did find a pennsylvania court case where they did consider snakes to be household pets:
http://www.columbiapa.org/courts/opinions/criminal/Com.%20v.%20Fisher%20774%20of%202001.rtf

It's sad that you almost have to be "underground" to be able to have reptiles. Something I was hoping to avoid in moving to a more urban area.

[RowingMunkeyCU]

Agreed. Heck, that's half the reason I wanted to own a house (so I didn't have to deal with landlords telling me what I can and can't have on my property).

Grrrr... whatever happened to our civil liberties?

[Cat_72]

Although I was thinking of raising your own rodents I also thought that if you wanted to have a reptile breeding facility for business purposes, you had to be registered as any other animal breeding facility. Is that true?

Thanks

Dan,

From my research and folks I've spoken to with the USDA, they really could care less what you do with reptiles, no matter how many you have. Their regualtion is fairly strict and well laid out for most warm-blooded animals, but even there, feeder rodents are marginal. It depends on who you sell them to, to some extent, but the general rule with rodents I believe is if you sell more than $500 worth per year you should be licensed and inspected.

Again, state regulations vary and can be quite different, but I know Iowa could pretty much not care less about snakes either for the most part.

And we live out in the middle of nowhere too, which helps....we too have an over 100 year old farmhouse (the basic structure anyway, it has been added on to since the original house was built), on 6 acres, several miles out of anything resembling a town....and our only neighbor close enough that they could complain doesn't care. I think we have kind of an unspoken agreement.....we don't complain about him and his buddies having a couple too many drinks and raising hell on their 4 wheelers at 3 am once in awhile, and they don't complain about anything we do. It's perfect. :)

[jpman78]

Thanks for looking into this Cathy :)

I received a real estate listing from the realtor of homes that didn't prohibit "breeding pets for commercial sales" and the list was only 4 houses long. Very disheartening. I called another realtor for another area nearby and hope that she can find me something but I have low hopes at this point in the immediate market.

While ambitious I think I might persue getting the 2/3 lot vote of the subdivision I want to live in to change the covenant. I realize this might not be possible but I'd like to think atleast eloquently speaking about this hobby and the limitations I'm seeing might make atleast a few more people informed.

Thanks for all the feedback. Any helpful statistics or other info about this hobby that might help my plight would be great :)

Thanks!

[The BoidSmith]

While ambitious I think I might persue getting the 2/3 lot vote of the subdivision I want to live in to change the covenant. I realize this might not be possible but I'd like to think atleast eloquently speaking about this hobby and the limitations I'm seeing might make atleast a few more people informed.

I wish you the best of lucks although I've reptiles all my life and haven't been able to convince friends or even relatives! Some people's feelings go beyond rational, it's more powerful than them and they can't control their fear towards those "cold creepy creatures" (sarcasm)!

[Cat_72]

John, I didn't even think to ask...what kind of snakes do you keep? I know it has become popular in some parts of Iowa to impose size limits and such on snakes you can keep.... :rolleyes_

You may want to double-check into your area before announcing to anyone that you keep any.

[jpman78]

Ball pythons. The puppy dog of the snake world :)

From a city, county, and state perspective I'm good.....it's just the darn covenants.

I went so far as to contact a real estate attorney. More or less he said it was a bad idea to live in a covenant where you were in violation. He also said that the definition of "common household pet" would most likely not include reptiles. It would be shakey ground legally.

So basically the city will allow them (them being snakes, geckos, etc.), you can buy them at local pet stores, BUT you can't find a home in the city limits without a covenant where you could be sued because you keep them. (the likelyhood of someone sueing a neighbor over their single leopard gecko is I'd say almost nil....but it's still technically a violation)

I'm looking in different areas now (smaller towns) hoping I can find either a more "liberal" subdivision or an AG zoned plot of land to build a house on.

[Cat_72]

Weird.

I guess maybe it's because I'm from a very rural area, but the whole idea of these "covenants" and such just seem totally off the wall to me, and the fact that you can't find a home NOT ruled by one actually kind of creeps me out, lol. I just don't get it.

At least you don't keep large snakes, at least you have one thing going for you. ;)

May I ask what area of the state you're in?

[jpman78]

I currently live in Cedar Rapids (which currently has a "NO CONSTRICTOR" ordinance) As such the M.W. Reptiles business is partnered with another herp keeper in rural Toddville, Iowa and that's where everything is kept for the group. Makes maintenence on him pretty bad but I help out as much as possible and do all the sales, webpage design, and inventory so he has less to worry about.

My hope was to move to the Iowa City corridor area, or more specifically North Liberty so that I could avoid a city ordinance banning the balls and keep my own snakes at my house for once.

The covenants seem very wrong to me. They have such things as minimum landscaping requirements, no RVs, your house color has to be on the approved color list, etc.

This sounds cliche but they seem "very unamerican"

[The BoidSmith]

I currently live in Cedar Rapids (which currently has a "NO CONSTRICTOR" ordinance)

Which of course include the deadly and vicious rubber boas, and kenyan sand boas. :rolleyes_

[The BoidSmith]

Let me show you mine (bear with me it's a rural area):

6.11. Animals, Livestock, and Poultry

Animals, Livestock, and Poultry shall be limited to two horses and two goats (amendment which I was able to negotiate prior to closing) as long as they are not maintained for commercial purposes (imagine what a business I can run with a pair of each!) and do not make objectionable noises or become an annoyance or nuisance of any sort to the neighborhood and remaining land owners. This would include no accumulation of manure that would cause annoyance or nuisance. [B] No cows, other animals or poultry of any kind shall be raised, bred or kept on any lot. A reasonable number of domestic household pets, such as dogs and cats, may be kept, provided they are not maintained for commercial purposes and do not make objectionable noises or become and annoyance or nuissance of any sort to the neighborhood.

Maybe we should start by removing the name "exotic" from all retiles. If we woould fortunate enough and have them labeled "household pets" in the future, we might be able to circumvent a lot of this nonsense.

[jpman78]

Exactly. It's really funny if you read the "dangerous animals" listing in the ordinance and think about it.

No lions, tigers, wild cats etc.
No alligators or crocadiles
No bears
No wolves
No venomous or constricting snakes

While at first glance it seems reasonable (which is probably why it passed) if you dig into the constricting snakes part it would mean that that 12 inch kenyan sand boa you have is along the same lines as a bear.

Very silly.

[The BoidSmith]

Sorry hit submitt instead of spell check:

Maybe we should start by removing the name "exotic" from all reptiles. If we would be fortunate enough and have them labeled "household pets" in the future, we might be able to circumvent a lot of this nonsense.

[jpman78]

http://www.columbiapa.org/courts/opinions/criminal/Com.%20v.%20Fisher%20774%20of%202001.rtf

In the previous court case they concluded that they could not say that snakes were not household pets.

I believe that if you were taken to court for not having "household pets" and had a good lawyer you could win.....atleast I'd hope so.

[The BoidSmith]

John,

This is the kind of thing that we need to prove. If we fight agaisnt we will certainly loose. If we fight to prove that snakes are household pets we might have a case. If you don't mind I'm going to use this thread to open another thread using this information to start the discussion.

Thanks!

[jpman78]

By all means go right ahead.

Thanks!

[BryonsBoas]

We lived in a mobile home park when I was growing up. My dad brought home a calf once. Kept it in the front yard for 2 months before moving it to the stables on Ft Benning. None of the neighbors minded at all and the folks that kept horses at the stables offered to buy it so it could stay at the stables. The neighbors thought it was neat and the horse owners wanted their horses around cows to get used to them.

I've seen chickens and goats kept in housing areas inside the city limits before. The new thing is housing areas described by the OP. They are building them out in the country area next to farms and large plots with animals. You can bet there will be covenants in every one of them.
I myself can't see paying $300,000 - $500,000 for a house and being forced to keep up the Jones's.

[Cat_72]

The covenants seem very wrong to me. They have such things as minimum landscaping requirements, no RVs, your house color has to be on the approved color list, etc.

They don't just seem wrong to me, they sem flat out crazy!

I suppose these are folks who enjoy living in a cookie-cutter society where everything is just so, and nothing will offend anyone (gosh, you want to paint your house Canary Yellow instead of Drabbest Gray? You're OUT, because yellow is just too unique and may cause a riot!)....but when it gets to the point where it is making it difficult for folks to find a place to live where they can actually do what they choose to do....well, I think it's nuts.

My sister in law lives in Omaha, and moved into one of those areas lorded over by a Homeowners society. They had no idea what they were really getting into until they lived there for awhile, and they couldn't wait to move out of there. It seemed their "rules" changed with the drop of a hat, and it was really run by a few select folks who just seemed hell-bent on the power trip of controlling what everyone else could and could not do. Maybe that's not the case eveywhere, but I will never understand it.

Maybe it's because I've been a country girl all my life (I lived in town for almost 1 year, and hated every minute of it, lol) where I don't have to ask for anyone's permission to keep a few chickens, or have THREE horses, or paint my house a bright, vibrant color....heck, if I wanted to, I could put a car up on blocks and leave it in my front yard forever, lol. Not that I would....but I know that I CAN, and it isn't hurting anyone.

And neither are my snakes.

Rant over........