Note to sellers: Alarming Paypal incident

[Johnny]

I recently received a paypal payment from a customer. Everything looked fine (paypal status: complete) and three days later, paypal placed a hold on the payment stating that the person or the person's bank withheld the money. WTF! Luckily, this was a honest mistake by the customer who had not cancelled an old checking account with paypal and accidentally used that account for the purchase. So I was thinking if that's the case, that means paypal has no idea that the account holder's bank had any money (or even an active account) for three days after the transaction was completed! From now on, I'm going to wait three days on paypal payments before shipping out animals.

T. Chiang

[norsmis]

This isnt new. I have heard of lots of incidents like this lately with Paypal.
And just a hint, you have to post your full name when posting on the BOI.

[Keith Northrop]

Doesn't surprise me one bit.......I would advise dumping them before your story doesn't have a happy ending.......Good Luck

[dumje]

I myslef had an encounter that i almost lost a very large chunk of money because the person used a credit card and then later refused the charges to the credit card and Pay Pal accepted the reversed charges with inquiring if the items had been returned or not. In the end it turned out ok...but it took several months to get it settled and I felt it should not have happened at all. Pay Pals "protection" sucks.

[Mooing Tricycle]

This happened to Me and another person i was sending money to as well.

I had deposited a set amount of money in a check in my checking account, generally checks will go in immediately the following morning, but the ATM will automatically tell me that 100.00 is available for withdrawal immediately.

I sent the 100.00 through paypal, which takes another two days to go through and also post to my account. Plenty of time for a payroll check to go through and post as well.

Something happened and, im still not quite clear on what exactly went down for that, but that they tried taking the money BACK from the other person's account when it was not theirs to take.

*sigh* paypal sucks, but... its there and works ( for the most part)

if something better came along, that was just as easy to use id be all over it!

[Amspoet67]

That's pretty funny that you have to wait 3 days to make sure the payment has cleared, because in order to be eligible for seller protection you are required to ship within 7 days of receiving payment.

In August we accepted payment for an animal, the temperatures were out of control so all parties agreed to wait until September. We shipped the animal and it arrived safely. A month after the animal was shipped (October) we were informed the person used a credit card and said they did not authorize the charge. Paypal investigated and found in our favor. Two weeks after that we were informed by Paypal that after re-investigating they found in favor of the buyer because we did not ship within 7 days. In addition to that they tried to charge us a $10.00 fee because of the charge back. So, we were out the money, the animal and an additional fee. We were able to recoup part of the money from Paypal, but that was after another two months of phone calls. Of course we contacted the buyer by phone, he laughed and hung up.

If you have a business account you are required to accept credit cards. Paypal chooses to accept the credit card on your behalf, you having no choice in the matter or even knowledge that it's a credit card, then they hold you responsible for any charge backs.

[Amspoet67]

That's pretty funny that you have to wait 3 days to make sure the payment has cleared, because in order to be eligible for seller protection you are required to ship within 7 days of receiving payment.

In August we accepted payment for an animal, the temperatures were out of control so all parties agreed to wait until September. We shipped the animal and it arrived safely. A month after the animal was shipped (October) we were informed the person used a credit card and said they did not authorize the charge. Paypal investigated and found in our favor. Two weeks after that we were informed by Paypal that after re-investigating they found in favor of the buyer because we did not ship within 7 days. In addition to that they tried to charge us a $10.00 fee because of the charge back. So, we were out the money, the animal and an additional fee. We were able to recoup part of the money from Paypal, but that was after another two months of phone calls. Of course we contacted the buyer by phone, he laughed and hung up.

If you have a business account you are required to accept credit cards. Paypal chooses to accept the credit card on your behalf, you having no choice in the matter or even knowledge that it's a credit card, then they hold you responsible for any charge backs.

Thanks
Anna Strate
www.homegrownherps.com

[ravensgait]

Folks I've posted this every time I see a thread here about PayPal, when Buying or selling live animals, Paypal does not offer buyer or seller protection. Anyone can either not send your animal or do a charge back after you sent an animal and paypal isn't going to cover you.. Also when it comes to Credit Card companies Paypal will roll right over for them, even when the charge back is done beyond Paypals TOS limit. You use Paypal at your own risk.. Randy

[obelix]

There is a great blog about merchant accounts written by someone who works in the industry (it doesn't promote any specific services, and IMO is very objective). I've found it immensely helpful. The most recent entry (Feb 29, 2008) is about PayPal and buyer/seller protection:

http://www.merchantaccountblog.com/

[homegrownherps]

Folks I've posted this every time I see a thread here about PayPal, when Buying or selling live animals, Paypal does not offer buyer or seller protection. Anyone can either not send your animal or do a charge back after you sent an animal and paypal isn't going to cover you.. Also when it comes to Credit Card companies Paypal will roll right over for them, even when the a charge back is done beyond Paypals TOS limit. You use Paypal at your own risk.. Randy


Where does it specifically outline that in the PayPal policies ?
I did not see that anywhere in there policy.
I have talked to them extensively on the phone about shipping live animals ( specifically reptiles ) and they said I still qualify for seller protection as long as I follow the seller paypal protection policy.

[ravensgait]

It says it in their terms of service ,, hey been there done that and paid the price for using Paypal.. Can't remember which thread but someone posted their TOS a while back.. Randy

[homegrownherps]

It says it in their terms of service ,, hey been there done that and paid the price for using Paypal.. Can't remember which thread but someone posted their TOS a while back.. Randy


I'd like to see it...I have just read through their Seller protection Policy twice and found nothing about live animals. I also just got off the phone with Pay Pal, and they said shipping live animals does not violate their seller protection policy.
I have also contacted them in the past about this, and got the same results.

[ravensgait]

Jim all I know is what happened in my deal almost three years ago when a slime ball did a charge back 5 months after the fact, they emailed me a copy of there TOS and told me they don't cover Live animals under their TOS .. Live animals were not listed as something they covered in Buyer or Seller protection. Unless they have changed it the TOS lay out just what they cover and if it isn't listed it isn't covered. Yeah I remember the first PayPal employee I talked to about my mess, said the same thing Oh Seller protection will cover it !! But then when it came down to it Sorry but we don't cover Live animals !!! So I'd want to see it in writing that they do cover Live animals, good old black and white is hard to wiggle out of, the words of an employee well he was just misinformed.. I'd be real interested to see if you can get them to show you where it says they will cover you.


I haven't used Paypal since then so have no idea what is in their TOS now but you said they don't mention Live animals so how much you want to bet that they'd cover you? Jim if you want to use them fine but if you look around you'll find others here that got screwed the same way I did. Look at it this way if a CC company says to Paypal give us this guys money back they are going to give the CC company the money and guess who they are going after to recover that money---- You! Like I said use at your own risk... Randy

[homegrownherps]

Jim all I know is what happened in my deal almost three years ago when a slime ball did a charge back 5 months after the fact, they emailed me a copy of there TOS and told me they don't cover Live animals under their TOS .. Live animals were not listed as something they covered in Buyer or Seller protection. Unless they have changed it the TOS lay out just what they cover and if it isn't listed it isn't covered. Yeah I remember the first PayPal employee I talked to about my mess, said the same thing Oh Seller protection will cover it !! But then when it came down to it Sorry but we don't cover Live animals !!! So I'd want to see it in writing that they do cover Live animals, good old black and white is hard to wiggle out of, the words of an employee well he was just misinformed.. I'd be real interested to see if you can get them to show you where it says they will cover you.


I haven't used Paypal since then so have no idea what is in their TOS now but you said they don't mention Live animals so how much you want to bet that they'd cover you? Jim if you want to use them fine but if you look around you'll find others here that got screwed the same way I did. Look at it this way if a CC company says to Paypal give us this guys money back they are going to give the CC company the money and guess who they are going after to recover that money---- You! Like I said use at your own risk... Randy

Randy.... I hate PayPal, but I would lose allot of business if I didn't have that as a payment option. I think PayPal is for people to lazy to go to go and get a Postal Money Order or Certified Bank Check. With that said..... I have looked through their terms and I have spoke with numerous people at pay pal. It doesn't have to say you will be covered if shipping live animals. For me ...it will have to say YOU ARE NOT COVERED if you ship live animals. This way if a problem occurs, I will just tell the Pay Pal rep. to point out exactly where it says I am not covered by the seller protection if I accept payment for live animals thru pay pal.

I still have to turn down payments thru pay pal on a regular basis these days. I will only accept it if the buyers shipping address is verified with PayPal, make certain I ship with in the 7 days ( which totally :censored: ),etc...etc...etc.
I haven't had to many problems lately.

Every one should just boycott PayPal, and then they will either fix it so we are not open to being easily ripped off , or some one will come up with a better on line payment method.

But do you think every one will stop using PayPal, especially if they haven't had problems ......doubt it. Some people say that the loss isn't so bad , "it's just the cost of doing business" :shrug01:

[northstarboasandmore]

is the google check out thing any better than pay pal? I have had no problems with paypal as of yet but would rather switch to something better that take a chance of getting screwed..

[hhmoore]

Google Checkout's TOS specifically prohibits live animal transactions
(one member here had her account cancelled/closed because she sold snakes)

[hhmoore]

Interestingly, there are others that use/recommend it...I wonder if this might be like UPS shipping snakes, where policy says one thing but (the impression seems to be that) if you offer enough business, they don't care

[ravensgait]

Randy.... I hate PayPal, but I would lose allot of business if I didn't have that as a payment option. I think PayPal is for people to lazy to go to go and get a Postal Money Order or Certified Bank Check. With that said..... I have looked through their terms and I have spoke with numerous people at pay pal. It doesn't have to say you will be covered if shipping live animals. For me ...it will have to say YOU ARE NOT COVERED if you ship live animals. This way if a problem occurs, I will just tell the Pay Pal rep. to point out exactly where it says I am not covered by the seller protection if I accept payment for live animals thru pay pal.

I still have to turn down payments thru pay pal on a regular basis these days. I will only accept it if the buyers shipping address is verified with PayPal, make certain I ship with in the 7 days ( which totally :censored: ),etc...etc...etc.
I haven't had to many problems lately.

Every one should just boycott PayPal, and then they will either fix it so we are not open to being easily ripped off , or some one will come up with a better on line payment method.

But do you think every one will stop using PayPal, especially if they haven't had problems ......doubt it. Some people say that the loss isn't so bad , "it's just the cost of doing business" :shrug01:
I can understand that Jim, and yeah to an extent some losses are part of doing business. I think the main reason I post when ever Paypal is mentioned(well other than they really pissed me off lol) is that most have no clue what their TOS are or Paypals relationship with the CC companies. I've been nailed on that and know of others that have in the same way..

Well they are not likely to go away nor miss the reptile business if we all stopped using them. heck I use to use them for buying and selling all the time now I use CC or take a trip to the post office for a MO and send it priority mail. have a good one ..Randy

[KJUN]

We keep hearing about the customers that screw seller via paypal. Are these transactions posted on the BOA so that we can evaluate them for ourselves? I admit it - I don't trust PayPal. HOWEVER, it is rather difficult to accept all of these stories at face value without evidence.

To all of the people saying they have been screwed by paypal, PLEASE post a link to the thread you started concerning the BAD GUY you had as a customer so I can evaluate the data against paypal. I think PayPal and the customer that allegedly screwed you deserve the same treatment as the bad sellers get on this site: posted evidence of the problem.

Jim, I understand your position, but I'm not sure it isn't a little too optimistic for me. I've been screwed by PayPal (not herp related, so it has no place here.) If you do have a problem with them, they claim they don't protect sellers of live animals, you point out they don't say that in their TOS, and they ask "so what?" What the heck can you do about it? You sure can force them to give you the money back! Like you, I hate taking paypal......but I'd also lose too many sales if I stopped taking paypal. Too many people like the convenience of PayPal even if they could CALL me with their credit card number directly for my own processing. Grrrr!

KJ

[homegrownherps]

We keep hearing about the customers that screw seller via paypal. Are these transactions posted on the BOA so that we can evaluate them for ourselves? I admit it - I don't trust PayPal. HOWEVER, it is rather difficult to accept all of these stories at face value without evidence.

To all of the people saying they have been screwed by paypal, PLEASE post a link to the thread you started concerning the BAD GUY you had as a customer so I can evaluate the data against paypal. I think PayPal and the customer that allegedly screwed you deserve the same treatment as the bad sellers get on this site: posted evidence of the problem.

Jim, I understand your position, but I'm not sure it isn't a little too optimistic for me. I've been screwed by PayPal (not herp related, so it has no place here.) If you do have a problem with them, they claim they don't protect sellers of live animals, you point out they don't say that in their TOS, and they ask "so what?" What the heck can you do about it? You sure can force them to give you the money back! Like you, I hate taking paypal......but I'd also lose too many sales if I stopped taking paypal. Too many people like the convenience of PayPal even if they could CALL me with their credit card number directly for my own processing. Grrrr!

KJ


KJ - I don't know what the reason is that others don't/didn't post their bad experience on the BOI is, mine reason is that I really didn't want to announce to it to the potential thieves reading these threads that there's an almost sure fire way to rip people off. The credit card charge back happened to me once, and there was two other incidents with PayPal that didn't cost me anything. I got on the phone with PayPal and argued for about 2 hours with them ...they finally gave me a 50% credit.

They others were incidents where customers used my lay-a-way and/or placed a deposit on animals...then changed their mind, contacted PayPal a few months later and got their money refunded.

I am not sure what their is to "evaluate", if you want the guys name who did the charge back , you can have have it. I think I already posted what happened to me. He did the charge back, PayPal looked into it, I won the dispute ( and they knew I shipped live animals ), two weeks later they refused the decision because I didn't ship with in the 7 days of receiving the payment. So in PayPal eyes, my crime was worse than fraud.

I cant afford to lose any sales , and "chalking it up to the cost of doing business" is getting old. There's just to many expenses being "chalked up". In the past 2 years I gave/paid PayPal over $2,500 for that 3% they charge for their services. Which wouldn't be that bad if their service didn't work against the seller.

They bottom line with PayPal is that, if you want to cover your butt, then you have to make sure that you follow the basic polices for the seller protection. If you do not , it really doesn't matter what the situation is .... you will not be covered and will lose the funds. If you follow the criteria for the seller protection then you are covered for up $5000.00 a year.

And I think that as time goes by, you will see allot more people getting ripped off because the scammers are starting to find those loop holes in Pay Pal.

[KJUN]

Jim:

I didn't mean to point a finger at you - I was more thinking of the person that started this thread, and those that chimed in saying PayPal was evil because of a personal experience. I understand your reason for not posting, but if it happens to me...you can BET I'll be posting the info to help sellers from getting screwed by the same person the next day. Scammers learn the trick faster than honest people do!

I also insist on money orders for payments that are anything less than in full - for the reasons you list. It's just smart. HOWEVER, there are times when I can't ship within 7 days for HONEST reasons (blizzards, excessive heat, etc.). Does one turn those payments down? Nah, not really.

I don't think getting screwed should be a cost of doing business, BUT Wal-Mart (and the like) factor in shoplifting costs when they put price tags on items for sale. It IS a part of doing business. That doesn't mean it is one we like. It doesn't mean it isn't one we should fight to avoid. It is part of overhead, though, whether we admit it or not. Any business that doesn't prepare for it is not likely to be a very successful business. This isn't news to any of us. THIS ALL BYTES - I agree with you there completely.

On the 3%, since it is the same I paid to run CC myself (without a monthly charge for the service), it doesn't bother me too much. Heck, I pay with everything around town with a CC, and they've never given me a single complaint. :) Of course, the CC are better to users than PayPal, eh? LOL.

[ravensgait]

KJ, they are on the BOI, might try a search using the word Paypal but heck I never have much luck with the search feature on the BOI. My experience was written in someone else's thread about the subject and I've given the short version in a few other threads about it. As I mentioned I've posted pretty much what I did in my first post here in threads where I noticed doing business with Paypal being mentioned..

Luckily I don't have to use it or accept it and as Jim mentioned the scammers are fgetting better at playing Palpal to their advantage..Randy

[homegrownherps]

[QUOTE=KJUN]Jim:

I didn't mean to point a finger at you - I was more thinking of the person that started this thread, and those that chimed in saying PayPal was evil because of a personal experience. I understand your reason for not posting, but if it happens to me...you can BET I'll be posting the info to help sellers from getting screwed by the same person the next day. Scammers learn the trick faster than honest people do! [QUOTE]


I didnt feel you were pointing fingers.

Hell...I'm afraid of the BOI , if I post my experience over there....by post #15 or so, it would end up being all my fault !

[ravensgait]

""Hell...I'm afraid of the BOI , if I post my experience over there....by post #15 or so, it would end up being all my fault !""

Well isn't it!! ;)