Need help deciding

[GottaLuvHerps]

Well, as we all know, this economy has everyone down right now. A lot of breeders are feeling the pinch, and so are a lot of consumers. So Matt and I have a decision we need to make.
We have already decided to put off our breeding projects off until next fall so that we can concentrate on the shows for 2009. But our decision on WHAT to breed is a big issue for me looking at market trends, animal availability and just general good business decisions.
We are interested mainly in 3 areas - bearded dragons, leopard geckos and some other agamid species that are not widely (if ever) found as CB animals. SO here are my thoughts on each...

Bearded dragons -
First, those are a HUGE passion for both Matthew and I, and we have the experience to make it happen again. We also have great babies that will be ready for breeding next fall already. The issue I see is that the market is FLOODED with dragons, and has been for awhile. It seems like everyone is into the breeding game, but it is getting harder and harder to sell them. The expense of keeping babies is HUGE, and if you can't unload them, it just gets more and more expensive.

Leopard geckos -
Again, a huge passion for me (not so much Matthew), and I have a ton of experience with these guys in both keeping and breeding. The expense is much less on the breeding and baby side than dragons as well. But, again, it seems the market is flooded, and unless you are investing in some high-end breeders with insane genetics, there's no money to be made. Not that it is all about money, but it would be stupid not to go into breeding and not think about money. Also, the morph game in leopard geckos is getting very hard to follow, and the market falls hard and fast one year to the next after investing in the "new" morphs like nothing I have seen - look at the Mack Snow projects people invested in for 1000's of dollars, and now you can find a good quality MS for around $50 each.

Agamids and other WC lizards (red-headed, pales, spiney lizards, etc) -
Our main thinking on this is that these lizards are so hard to find as CB animals, if you can find them at all. The market is rather saturated with WC ones, but I would love to bring some of them onto the CB market. I do know a few breeders are having good luck with some species (collard lizards for example), and it is encouraging. There is not a lot known about most of these lizards in captivity, so it could also double as a research project as well as a breeding project for whatever species we decide to go into. On the downside, these are not "popular" lizards yet, and so sales would be slow for awhile.

While not a main focus, I am also considering getting back into crested geckos as well. They are not a huge passion for me, but I have the experience with them, and do think they are cute. Plus, the market seems good for them from what I have seen. I just have a thing for "desert" lizards, so I do not have the feelings for them as I do the others I have mentioned.

So, what would you do? I want to seriously start thinking about it now so that I can make any investments I need to in good quality breeding stock animals in the coming months. Thanks for the thoughts in advance!

Kelly Kordek

[Double LY]

Since I'm not a breeder, obviously I'm an expert on this subject and should chime in, right? :rofl:

Although I have a beardie and have had cresties in the past, I'm going to respond only to the leo portion of your post as that is my passion :thumbsup:

As I prefaced my post with, I am not a breeder, but a very enthusiastic keeper of a moderate collection of around 15-20 leos at any time. I have considered breeding in the past, but have chosen just to love being a keeper instead. I do agree that the leo market is one that saddens me quite a bit with the amount of people becoming breeders. However, it seems to be saturated with people who jump from "meet my new gecko from Petco - what morph is it/how do I tell the sex" to "I'm going to be a HUGE breeder" within a few weeks. Luckily most of those people fade away within a season or two when they realize the leo game isn't going to make you an overnight millionaire and the general public will not plunk down a huge pile of money to some fart-in-a-whirlwind type breeder.

Despite the abundance in leo breeders, I believe there is still room for success. I think the key with leos is NOT trying to "keep up with the Jones". Although they don't sell for thousands, I believe good quality "old" morphs are good basics to start with and you can grow from there. A pretty Bell/Tremper/Rainwater albino can be mixed with other morphs to give you great combos. Blizzards and Pattys are other tried and true morphs that people still look for. If leos are something you are passionate about - I say give it a shot. Just remember to go for quality over quantity. You can find $25 Petco browned out tangerines with a 15% carrot-tail all day long or you can be the one creating GORGEOUS screaming orange 90% carrot-tails :yesnod:

The fact that you are already in the "breeding game", so to speak, and are working on building up your reputation as well as that of your show should speak volumes to potential customers. You have shown yourself to be a professional and as long as you continue to do that, I believe you should have great success in whatever breeding ventures you decide on.

[Seamus Haley]

Agamids and other WC lizards (red-headed, pales, spiney lizards, etc) -
Our main thinking on this is that these lizards are so hard to find as CB animals, if you can find them at all. The market is rather saturated with WC ones, but I would love to bring some of them onto the CB market. I do know a few breeders are having good luck with some species (collard lizards for example), and it is encouraging. There is not a lot known about most of these lizards in captivity, so it could also double as a research project as well as a breeding project for whatever species we decide to go into. On the downside, these are not "popular" lizards yet, and so sales would be slow for awhile.

From a business standpoint, I would be wary of many of these.

If the idea is to breed something with any intention of making a profit off the resulting offspring, you have to be able to turn around and generate more from the sale of the animals than you put into producing them. That's before you even start putting a pricetag on your time and effort.

For many agamid species that are predominantly wild caught, the efforts and costs of breeding them in captivity exceed the potential value that a breeder would be able to sell them for. Yes, your CB stock would be of a higher quality than the majority of the WC animals of the same species that are avaliable but you still need to find buyers willing to pay for that difference in sufficient volume to make a sustained effort of it. Take the red headed agamas for example- after the intensive efforts involved, the space they take up, the extreme environmental conditions that would be required to cycle them, the relatively small clutch sizes and everything that an active diurnal species eats... You'd likely need to price the resulting CB offspring somewhere slightly in excess of a hundred dollars to break even. Wild caught animals are avaliable in the big box chain stores for twenty bucks and wholesale for about a quarter of that. Unfortunately the market of individuals who like the species enough AND recognize that there's going to be a markup for quality is relatively small.

That changes when you start looking at species which, while WC, are still considered to be rarer or more expensive. The maintenence costs run similarly, but the difference in price becomes less extreme.

From a project standpoint for your own pleasure, run with anything you like and believe you can find some buyers for with a minimal markup over WC stock- the financial loss is just a cost associated with an entertaining and personally fufilling experience.

[KathyLove]

Unfortunately, most of the lower priced w.c. lizards seem to go mostly to beginners. Novices often don't see a big difference between w.c. and c.b., and are not willing to pay for quality they are unable to judge for themselves. So unless imports of a particular species are cut off, unfortunately, it probably will be a "labor of love", not profit, to breed them. That is, unless you come across some really attractive mutation - then you will be able to distinguish your c.b. animals, even to beginners.

Seems like your best bet might be to focus on the 2 species you really like and are experienced with. But keep the numbers (and expenses) down, and concentrate on some special bloodlines that you really like, and work on improving them in some way that interests you. If you become well known for one or more selectively bred lines that people really like, your reputation will help you sell them. That reputation takes a while to establish, so if you work on small numbers of "special" dragons and/or leos, by the time the economy recovers, you will be well on your way to being leo / dragon "kings", lol!

[GottaLuvHerps]

Thank you all for your comments!

Kelly, I agree, I am partial to some of the "old school" morphs, and actually that is what my collection is made up of (blizzards, normals, some SHTCT, a pretty LVPA, and who knows what else). As the leo market has it's ups and downs with the new morph game, those always seem to hold tried and true. I personally have a special place in my heart for normals and high yellows, simply because my first ever leo (Olina) is a pretty little girl who is just your basic, every day brown spotted yellow leo. If she wasn't too old to give me eggs (IMO), I would breed her just to get Olina babies! But I personally won't breed an animal for the first time after they are about 4, and she is heading on 6 or 7 now. Still breedable technically, but she has been a pet for so long, I just don't want to put her through that. It's the same way with all my current leos, even the younger ones (3 years old or so). Plus it just gives me a reason to buy more LOL.

Seamus, I completely agree with what you are saying about the WC agamid market. I also think it is a sad statement on how the market operates, but it is the way it is. As you said, they are not "popular" enough to really think about investing a lot of money into them to try and bring up a CB population, and, the time involved in breeding them would make the prices skyrocket. The only advantage I would see would maybe be on the research side of things, as a good, proper caresheet on most of the WC agamid species is difficult, if not impossible, to find, at least in my research so far. I guess my love for them is along the same lines as the dragons - I just have a soft spot for these diurnal desert lizards for some reason. I see the same issue with uros on the market, and although people are starting to breed them successfully on the CB market, it is still cheaper by a long shot to get a WC lizard at a show than it is to shell out a few more bucks for a quality CB one. Heck, even the BP market is still seeing that after all these years (GOD how I wish they would stop THAT importation being legal, but that is another tangent).

Kathy, again, I agree. I am thinking of specializing in dragons and leos. I have to go "up" my game on the genetics tables again, but it can be done. Matthew has this incredible love of orange dragons, and I have a thing for the yellows, so we could create some great, healthy animals with great colors. That is the biggest issue on the dragon market right now - the market is flooded, but that does NOT mean it is flooded with healthy animals, much less good colors or personalities. As far as leopard geckos go, the morph game is out there big time, but like Kelly said, its quality that seems to be lacking. Who knows, maybe we can fix that? :D

[KathyLove]

Look at the corn market - nothing is more flooded than that! I had people at the shows lately trying to almost "give" me healthy looking, feeding, normal corns for $5 each in dozen lots - ridiculous! Yet I (along with a number of other breeders) can still get around $50 each for really nice okeetees, which, after all, are just selectively bred (by humans or Mother Nature) normal corns themselves. It just depends on whether your particular line of animals offers something different than the cheaper "imitations". Of course, the quality has to be both real AND perceived - if there is no widely known reputation or perception of something special, then few will pay more, even if yours really is better for one reason or another.

If you start to specialize in some particular orange or yellow lines of dragons, and you get photos out all over the Net and people start talking about them, then you will start to benefit by the perception that your line IS really special, and worth getting in line for. And if your customers start talking you up as well, then people really start to listen.

I have found that customer service is possibly even more important than what you sell. I am a one person business, so don't sell nearly the volume that some breeders do (but the lower volume sold at higher prices does help keep costs down). However, I do spend a lot of time with each customer, as much as it takes. They tend to appreciate that. The ones who don't care or don't need that much attention, buy from cheaper sources.

I can tell from your posts on the BOI that you also are into customer service. Not everyone will notice, but enough will notice that it will eventually have a big impact on your rep as a breeder, as well as in show promotion.

[Southern Wolf]

Great thread.. .thanks for starting it. I am in kinda the same boat.... My passion is snakes, but I wanted to diversify with my breeding projects to appeal to a wider audience.... and thus I have taken on a couple of lizard species.

Surprisingly I have 3 different morphs of corns for sale... and the only ones that have recieved any inquiries have been the Classic Corns.... go figure.

also... sent you a PM Kelly

[jayefbe]

I'm not a breeder (I hope to soon, but right now it's just a handful of snakes), but I do have something to add about the WC lizards. People enjoy the rarity of a species or morph. Without the ball python morphs, balls would always be popular due to their size and temperament, but a lot of people would view them as "just another ball python". In fact, I know a big-time colubrid guy that used to turn his nose up to ball pythons, but now that he's seen what incredible morphs there are he's gotten a pair of his own. When reptiles are imported into the US in large numbers they lose their allure or attractiveness to a lot of potential owners, simply because they appear to be common.