experience with Pro Exotics

[Da_Ru]

This thread is about my experience with Pro Exotics. I bought a male prove breeder het albino male BCI. All the males I have are rookies this will be their first year breeding so I decided to get a veteran in there. Will I bought him at the NARBC show in philly around Nov 16. Robyn flew him in and hand delivered it to the show. So as soon as I got him, him being a proven breeder I put him in with my het female. NTL around 78 DTH around 82. I have a couple of pairs breeding at this time including him. Well a couple of weeks later I noticed he was going into a shed and had seperated them. When he was done I put them back together. This time nothing happen. So I said good he done his job now it is time for another female. I put him in with another female and still nothing. Then I saw him with his mouth slightly opened. Great now he has R.I. I seperated him and put him in a cage with heat 24/7 temps around 90 hot spot. about a week later he DIED. I then called Pro Exotics and let them know about it. Chad Brown himself called him. He said he died because he was not acclimated properly and this led to R.I. Come on 78 is not to low of a temp for this male to die. How come my other 5 BCI did not develope anything. This is my first snake that has died and I did not get a necropsy done. I am left with a dead snake and PE is doing nothing about it. I will never buy anything from them again.

So whos at fault you be the judge?

Drew McHenry

[Seamus Haley]

Is the server not accepting responses, causing my reply to dissapear into the ether or is this just a multiple posting?

[The BoidSmith]

Drew,

What Robyn told you could have happened. The stress of shipping, new environment + bugs, new cage mates could have triggered a RI. In my opinion what you did wrong and can't undo now is not following a strict quarantene. By doing so you have also subjected your females to a similar risk. Look carefully after them for a while.

Best regards.

[Darin Chappell]

Seamus,

Since Da_Ru's post now has a full name at the bottom of it, I would say that this is his correct post, and the original thread was deleted for violation of the full name rule.

Just my guess, though.

Da_Ru,

I think you're out of luck on this. Even IF the snake had an RI when you got him, you didn't notice it until AFTER the guarantee deadline. Hard to argue that point.

Also, since you didn't quaranteen the animal, if he DID have anything nasty on him, you spread it to your other animals too! However, given what Seamus said on his first post about seeing the facillity from where your snake originated, it sounds like you dodged a bullet on that one!

[DarksideBoas]

One word...

Quarantine!!!!

I, myself do it for 3 weeks...but i know of others who keep them in Q for over 2 months....Sad that the animal didnt make it, it sounds like it may have proven fruitful for you...but it appears you were a bit hasty in wanting to get fast results...

[Seamus Haley]

Understandable reason for the dissapearance then.

As I said before though...

Pro Exotics has a twenty four hour guarantee. While they're usually pretty flexible about it and give some reasonable leeway, you had the snake for a matter of (at least) weeks before it developed symptoms of the condition and R.I.'s don't always take long to develop.

Since you were way outside the guarantee when the animal died and when contact was made, you really have no recourse for compensation unless Robyn or Chad feels like going out of their way (and it sounds like they don't, which is not unreasonable given the timeline).

P.E.'s facility and former retail location is less than two miles from my apartment in Littleton, I've been down there a few times and I can verify that every animal I have seen has been healthy, clean and properly cared for... The statements they make about constant cleaning and checking environmental conditions online are more than true. They subscribe to the philosophy that healthy animals can be sold for a greater profit and that you really do get what you pay for... I have never seen anything even close to approaching a sick or stressed animal and only rarely ever seen any deification (and always very fresh) in the enclosures.

I agree with what others have said about the quarantine procedures but as you said your other animals do not seem to be showing signs of anything and R.I.'s can develop very quickly if conditions drop outside of the ideal range for certain periods of time, the stress of moving that is unavoidable increases the chances that any infections will take a more serious turn. Sorry to hear that the animal died but there's really no way to put this back on the dealer considering the time which has elapsed and the clarity of their policies.

[Ken Harbart]

Based on the information presented, I feel that it's unreasonable to believe that ProExotics should bear any respopnsibility. No offense Drew, but this snake's demise appears to have been caused by your haste to breed it.

A stressed snake is an immunocompromised snake. Placing it with a female right off the bat only compounded the problem.

You ask why this snake developed a RI and died, while the others remained healthy? Quite simply, the likely cause was him being subjected to a great deal of stress, which weakened his immune response.

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Just an observation Drew. 78 degrees ambient is most assuredly below optimum for BCI's. With an animal that was already stressed, it could definitely trigger health problems. I work with colubrids exclusively now and I keep THOSE at an ambient of 82 with the exception of brumation.

When I did work with Boas, a standard of 85 ambient with a hotspot of 90 to 92 was the norm. You are definitely not supplying prime conditions for your animals.

I have to weigh in on the side of Pro-Exotics on this one

[Da_Ru]

Thanks for all the input. I am going to take this as a learning experience and quarantine all animals no matter whom they are from.

[BrianB]

Originally posted by Da_Ru
Thanks for all the input. I am going to take this as a learning experience and quarantine all animals no matter whom they are from.

I'd just like to say that that's one of the most level-headed posts I've seen on here lately.

I'm sorry for your loss, and wish you better luck in the future.

Just to keep this on topic, I've ordered supplies from Pro Exotics and had a few phone discussions and e-mail exchanges with Robyn, and the level of service has always been outstanding, even for such small transactions.

[The BoidSmith]

I'd just like to say that that's one of the most level-headed posts I've seen on here lately.

I'll second Brian's comments. I'm pretty sure Drew will go far in this hobby. Isn't it nice when you find people with Drew's attitude?

I still make mistakes, and I'm happy about it. The day I stop making them it's because I'll be "watching the daisies from below" (and hopefully I'll turn 50 this year!).

Happy herping!

[robyn@Pro Exotics]

i feel badly about Drew's situation, but felt like we were in a really tough spot on this one.

number one, the animal died, and that sucks, plain and simple. it was also Drew's first loss, and that REALLY SUCKS! i tell ya Drew, if you really want to do the breeding thing, it won't be your last loss, and while they always hurt and set you back, those first few losses really hit very hard and close to home. but we have all been there, it is a part of the hobby, and part of the unpredictability of breeding.

we sold a few of these het albino breeder males (a few was all we had), at a very aggressive (inexpensive) price, because we have enough mature true morph breeder males that het males had no slot in our boa projects. what makes for a difficult situation is that there are no more of those animals available. it isn't like buying a baby boa, where if something goes wrong, regardless of fault, it is fairly easy to replace the animal with another from the clutch. at that point, there is little time and money invested into a baby, and you just eat the loss and help that customer.

with a large breeding snake, it is pretty much a "one of a kind" animal. we don't have 100 breeder males drop each season grown up and ready to sell.

the whole traveling, not feeding (because of breeding), new caging, new cagemates, aggressive cooling, breeding situation all add stress to a situation. Drew is a smart guy, i am SURE that in retrospect he can recognize that. i don't dig his cooling temps for breeding, i think they are too cool (i heard a temp lower than 78), and when compounded by not having a hot spot at all, not even during the day (highs of 80-82 is what he told me) , a RI is not at all surprising. (PLEASE rethink your lack of daytime highs Drew, many MANY boa breeders are moving AWAY from overly cool temps, and heat is not only healthy, but crucial for neonatal development. a lot of very successful boa breeders don't cool at all).

add all of that up, and it equals one big negative situation. it really does bum me out, but i can't eat 400 bucks because of a husbandry situation 2 months after i last saw the animal, i just can't. and that is a huge bummer as well.

it doesn't happen very often, but when customers have loss or failure, i take it very personally. if Drew doesn't want to do business with us again, that is our loss. but i do want Drew to understand that we do have compassion for the situation, and we wish him all the best in the future.

robyn markland @ Pro Exotics

[Fred Albury]

Usually when a post like this gets thrown up about a major breeder, a whole *FLOOD* of cheerleaders and former customers/dash Friends, come forward to give testimonial as to why it couldnt have possibly been that breeders fault based on their good dealing with them. OFTEN...these rebuttals are about people that are cheats...liars....and sell sick animals.

Thats where this one differs................

Haveing met Robyn at Reptile Shows as a vendor, I came to know and like his business ethics. As a fellow vendor, and unlike most, I would definetly say something if the snake he sold a friend or myself was sick or not what it was supposed to be. THAT doesnt happen very often in this industry, as everyone is worried about offending their "buddies" and potential future sources for snakes. In short, people give weather reports about their "friends" because they are their friends.

Thats what makes this one different.....

Robyn is not my friend, but a fellow vendor and reptile breeder engaged in business in a very competitive arena. after talking to him, as a fellow breeder at shows,I came to have a high regard for his business ethics and, if I can say that I "truly trust" anyone in this industry...well he gained that trust.

So much so...that AS a fellow vendor I purchased snakes from him. Not inexpensive , easily replaceable snakes, but fairly rare and pretty expensive snakes(For me). Thats probably the highest testimonial that one breeder can give another...not that they are "buddies" and had lots of other back door deals in the works...but that they purchased snakes from the other breeder, expecting nothing more than good snakes. And actually getting GREAT ones.
My striped red bloods have been, are and will be my LEAST problematic snake pair in my collection.And my collections is a very small, very clean one. The whole expereince of purchaseing, receiving and watching this pair of snakes grow has been very stress free.

I truly empathize with the person who brought up this post, who got a snake that he felt allready had RI. I a not ignoreing that, But my expereince with this breeder has been positive, truly.

thanks for listening,

Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles

P.S.
The opinions expressed herein are mine and mine alone.
What I have said about this industry and how people truly deal with each other may irritate some, may give others recourse to
say negative things about me. I have only one thing to say about that..the truth hurts.

[Neil Gubitz]

Robyn.... Great post, man!.... You showed a lot of character!.... I'm impressed!.... (I wonder if *I* can ever do that?.... lol

Drew.... With what's been said on this thread, I think you're making a mistake, not wanting to do business with PE again.... their animals are top-quality (I've bought some, personally), and, as it was brought out, they did NOTHING wrong???.... You should not let your mistake fall on Robyn's shoulders.... You "might" want to reconsider your decision.... it will only be to YOUR benefit....

You also might want to take their advice on the proper breeding tips they offered....

....Neil

[ms_terese]

Robyn.... Great post, man!.... You showed a lot of character!.... I'm impressed!.... (I wonder if *I* can ever do that?.... lol
Not until we work on your use of punctuation, Neil! ;)

Drew, I have great respect for your ability to accept this situation as a learning experience. I hope you can do so without bad feelings for PE. I've bought from them and have been thrilled with the animals that I've received.

Robyn, thanks for laying it out straight. Many people think that the first reaction of a seller is "It's not my fault!" and that's the end of that. I'm glad you pointed out that you (as most sellers) HATE it when an animal doesn't make it, but business must go on.

[BigOz]

Man, I had no idea all of this transpired until a fellow herper casually mentioned this thread during a conversation. I feel obligated to comment on this unfortunate situation.

I would like to make the following points.

1) Both Drew and Robyn are cool people in my book.

2) I don't think this animal was sick when Robyn sold him.

3) Breeding is very stressful on males.

4) I feel the combined factors of shipping, acclimation, no food and breeding is what killed this animal.

5) I will always be willing to do business with Robyn and will recomend him again and again.

Being the one that recommended that Drew buy this animal I feel a little responsible. When Drew called me and told me that the snake died of a respiratory infection I was quite surprised. You see I too had purchased one of these three Breeder males from Robyn and I was quite impressed with mine. That's exactly why I recommened Drew to Robyn in the first place. When I heard the snake died of a resp I recommended that Drew call Robyn just to let him know. I did not think it was Robyn's fault or that he was obligated to replace the animal. I just know how Robyn is and I thought he would do something for Drew if he could. I still feel this way about Robyn. He's a class act in the Reptile World.

Now when I first received my animal he was big and strong and well fed. I put him in quaranteen and tried feeding but he would not eat. I figured he was ready to breed. I too was in a rush to get albinos so I only quaranteened him for a month (only because I trust Robyn 100%). I know this was not a good practice, but it's my first year and I was anxious too. I quaranteen all of my animals, but I have been waiting for three years slowly raising my animals when my reserved male became ill.

This male was all over my female instantly! He bred her for 3 1/2 months straight... exactly what I wanted! After the 3 1/2 months he lost interest in my female. At this time the male looked beat up and had lost much weight. I attributed this to the stress of 3 plus months of breeding. I separated him and sure enough he began feeding eagerly for me. He is doing great now and I'm sure he will return to his fat and healthy state once more after a little TLC.

Drew, I'm sorry for your loss. This can be a valuable lesson for you that may help you prevent loosing breeder males in the future. I know I have learned a lot this past year. One thing being that breeding is just as stressful on males as it is on females. My two males looked awful by the time they were finished breeding.

Take Care,
Amad Osman (aka Oz)

[evansnakes]

Quarantine is one thing, but to take an animal that went from Colorado to Philly to your house over a 3 day period, in a bag, without water and heat, went through air pressure and climate changes from air travel, and then throw it in a cage with another animal? Breeder or not that is an incredible amount of stress on that animal. You should have taken it home, given it a cage on it's own, with heat and water and left it alone for a at least a few days. Then if it looked outwardly healthy you could start planning to breed down the road. Evan Stahl

[mycurlylocks]

Sorry for the loss Dru,
We all have to learn from our mistakes, we always hate it when it is at the expense of an animal's life.
Most animals aren't warrantied for very long, mainly because the seller cannot control the buyer's environment for the animal.
A lot of sellers seem to warranty live shipping and that it is.
Dru,
Do more research on your animals. People will always be glad to give you advice whether you have bought from them or not. If I am considering a new pet, I always spend hours on the net and if I get conflicting information, I hit the forums.
Better luck next time around.
Candy King

[David Reid]

I have to agree that the cooling temp of 78 is adequate BUT should be the NIGHT time AMBIENT temp., with a hot spot of 88 or so during the DAY and ambient temp of 80+ during the day.

I HEAR MANY HORROR STORIES FROM IMPROPER COOLING TECHNIQUES. Drew, do some research or call Robyn and ask humbly for some advice....he sounds like he would be more than happy to help you.

The above temps have been used succesfully for my 1.2 Hogg islands for 8 yrs or so....VERY succesfully. It also depends on your location, but I used these temps in WA and San Diego, with equal success.

David Reid

[robyn@Pro Exotics]

i think this post is a decent example of how things can go wrong sometimes, and how it can be hard to place blame and point the finger. this was an unfortunate situation, especially for Drew, because he lost an animal, AND money.

what i don't like is how some of the replies have been toned, insinuating that Drew doesn't know what he is doing, or he needs to get some "expert" help. even my first post had some of that tone.

when posting in forums, it is awfully difficult to convey emotion, or meaning, and posts often come off harder edged than they are meant to. for this thread, i am hoping this is the end of it, and that can stop.

i have different ideas about breeding boas than Drew does. but they are just theories and suggestions. it might be Pro Exotics, but that by no means makes me a "Pro " boa breeder. we struggle with the subtleties of breeding and husbandry as much as anyone else. i would be happy to talk with any hobbyist about my thoughts on breeding, but i am certainly not going to tell Drew "what to do", that it is a journey that all propective breeders must make, and it includes such slips along the way.

Drew was definitely excited about the new animal, i always am as well. things went south, unfortunately, but that doesn't make him "dumb" or even a poor keeper, that stuff happens all the time, it is an accepted negative of breeding reptiles. he is still my (previous) customer, and a heck of a nice guy, so i am hoping there are no more posts about how he needs to talk with breeders about what he screwed up, and how to get his stuff together. everyone has gotten that idea by now, and both Drew and PE have certainly learned from the situation, there is no reason to keep reiterating stuff that we have already been over, that doesn't do anything but throw more salt on the wound.

thanks all.

robyn@Pro Exotics

[Da_Ru]

Originally posted by Da_Ru
NTL around 78 DTH around 82. I have a couple of pairs breeding at this time including him.
Drew McHenry

Thanks for all the feedback. As I said in my first post my NTL is 78 and my DTH is 82. I am breeding 3.3 boas including the het male that died. Unfortunately he is the only one that got sick. Since this is my first adult boa that I have ever purchased I did not acclimate him properly. This is my only mistake that I have made. Lesson Learned.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/560DSCN0160a.JPG

[HerpVenue]

1. I am glad everyone is getting along in this thread.
2. That really bites Drew. Sorry for your loss. I would let you borrow my male het.....but I had to take him off the breeding mode. He was starting to look really rough..specially after three maybe four girls.

[Gary Walsch]

Drew I think you handled yourself very well here and unfortunately you learned a very important lesson the hard way. But we all learn from our mistakes and the only people who don't make mistakes are people who don't try to do anything. I also think pro exotics were well in their rights especially when you consider the timeline involved in this situation. Also before you say you won't do business with Robyn or pro exotics think about that old saying " Cutting off your nose to spite your face " . Robyn and pro exotics deal in quality animals and are very professional in all their dealings. My guess would be that if you went back they would take good care of you because that's the type of people they are. Just my opinion.

[sputnik]

One lesson anyone buying reptiles, regardless of being experienced or just starting out is..... Quarantine all animals you get, not just because of R.I. but also because of MITES!!!!!

You might pay a little extra for the animal from pro exotics, but it's well worth it!!

Scott Collien