rusty pacific gopher?

[diablohogs]

i have this spot that i goto that is loaded with pacific gophers. well a while back i caught a pacific (?) gopher from the same spot, that was pretty different (i will post a pic when i get home from work). now, i've had/seen many pacific gopher snakes throughout my life but this one appeared almost hypomelanistic, it has rusty red blotches, an almost patternless belly with pink coloration, and little or no black. HOWEVER it does have the black tongue. i dunno... i guess i'm putting the carriage before the horse here but ultimately i'd like to find out what it is that i have because i'm tired of calling it "the cool looking gopher snake i caught". maybe its an intergrade, or its just not a pacific at all... maybe, but maybe isn't good enough, know what i mean. so i will post a pic when i get home and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. any input would be great.

chad elmore
http://www.diablosnakefarm.com

[diablohogs]

here's the picture... please lemme know what you think.

[diablohogs]

heres a close up of his head.

[diablohogs]

Well considering Pituophis c. catenifer are the only gopher snakes that are SUPPOSED to be in this area you can see where i might think that but after i did a little research i believe that it is just a nice looking Sonoran Gopher.

Pituophis c. affinis 45 miles from San Francisco...? well seeing as you found one like it, that means there's more than just the one i found. Has anyone ever heard of affinis in norcal? i'm pretty sure thats what i have... unless someone believes otherwise...and can prove it.

[Shaun Roberson]

Definitely NOT a Sonoran; pattern is that of a Pacific, but yeah, a very cool, different looking Pacific. Beauty.

[diablohogs]

i was hoping for a more specific response but its nice to get any feedback. thanks.

[Shaun Roberson]

see how the blotches have a rounded look at mid-body? and there is a definite break between the dorsal and lateral blotches on the first 6 inches or so of its body? It's kind of hard to describe, you can just tell by looking.

[diablohogs]

thanks again for the feedback. basically i was hoping it was a genetic color phase or mutation and now i can confirm that is probably the case. my only question really is:
is it a unique color phase or a common one?
or
Is it a hypomelanistic pacific gopher?
thanks in advance for any further assistance in this matter.
chad elmore
diablo snake farm

[Seamus Haley]

Ever hear of phenotypical elasticity?

There's a slight variation in the appearance of every animal, some species are simply capable of developing a more dramatic difference or a more visually obvious one.

This trend that tries to pin every single odd colored scale or wierd looking snake as being a new genetic morph is doing nothing more than sending the industry down the toilet and giving crooks and shady dealers a chance to rip people off.

Chad, I'm pretty sure you already know that I have no respect whatsoever for you, your intelligence or your work. You produce hybrid mutts without even a second's thought given to the potential results once they're out of your hands, you have proven on another thread that you have no understanding of basic biology, mendelian genetics or any of the terms and phrases used when discussing reptile phenotypes...

But fishing around to try and stick a label on this thing is lower than I even expected from you.

See all that dark brown all over the snake?

It's not hypomelanistic.

It may be a localized breeding population that has developed a slightly different color pattern due to semi-isolation from other breeding groups but the most it could be labeled as then is a locale specific animal (Much like you get with say... alterna) and the pattern isn't a simple recessive. There's also a slim chance that you have located an area of subspecific intergradiation and that the animal(s) you found aren't pure subspecies (By the definition of a species, these crosses are naturally occuring). Have you tried doing a scale count to determine exactly what it is that you've got there? Visual markings are the obvious clues but in an animal that was found outside the natural range for a pure subspecific animal with a minor deviation to it's appearance, it's worth double checking.

Just a couple questions...

Isn't field collection without the appropriate permits illegal in California?

Heck, isn't possesion of a native species without paperwork proving that it's CB also illegal?

Have you got the needed permit(s) to field collect?

What god-awful monstrosity are you planning on creating with it once it reaches breedable age? After you determine exactly what and why it is what it is, I'm betting that you'll try to make it breed with your dog since you have no respect whatsoever for biology as a STUDY of the natural world.

[Shaun Roberson]

Based on the amount of brown it has(as the other poster was saying), my guess is that it isn't, but, as you say, it seems some strains of hypo are"more hypo than others", so you never know.

The only real way to know if it's just a variation or a genetic color mutation is to breed it and then breed together some of those offspring, so you're talking at least 6 years to find out.

[Ken Harbart]

Okay children, we can either play nice, or not play at all. I just deleted two replies to this thread for good cause. I have a fairly high threshold, but there's a few things I won't let slide, regardless of who pissed in who's Wheaties initially. There is to be no posting of obscene pictures, and no profanity. Understood?

[diablohogs]

well i had a nice rebuttle to seamus' inappropriate response to my post but as you can see they have been deleted. thats okay because enough people read them to know my stand. evey time i post a picture or something seamus can't help but jump on there and try to smear my name thru the mud because he's still upset that i'm among the growing numbers of faunaclassifeds members that have pointed out what a jackass (a jackass is a animal) he is. its to bad that the moderater couldn't have left up at least my verbal response to seamus. oh well. the select few of you out thier who got to read it makes it somewhat worth it. a few questions to anyone who feels they have a good enough understanding of color mutations to answer...

1. what does brown pigment have to do with melanin?
2. a nice looking anery also has no brown... i s'pose thats because it to is a hypomelanistic despite the fact that it is only showing melanin pigment? (dripping with sarcasm)

in other words anery is the retardation of red and brown pigment (type A) hypomelanistic is the retardation of melanin (black pigment). admitingly thier are examples out thier of snakes that don't have brown or black but than again you need to ask yourself...did the snake have any brown pigment to begin with?

p.s.s. i understand. i did it knowing it was the wrong thing to do but felt it was justified in some sense so i did it anyway.

p.s. moderator why don't you delete seamus' inappropriatly insulting post as well. wouldn't that be the fair thing to do??????

[Ken Harbart]

Okay, I'll rehash this...Two wrongs don't make a right-especially when they create unnecessary work for me. :look:

Chad, I have no problem with you posting rebuttals to Seamus, so long as they don't contain profanity or an obvious attempt to circumvent the language filter. (hint: shamea$$). This is the sole reason that your previous rebuttal was deleted. That being said, you are free to repost a reply that conveys the same sentiment, sans the aforementioned faux pas.

Had Seamus' reply contained similar language, it would have been deleted as well.

[WebSlave]

I am backing up Ken in this, fellas, so play nicely, please. I don't have the time to play umpire, so if you fail to heed Ken's warning, I will simply assess warning points and delete the entire thread.

[Shaun Roberson]

Originally posted by diablohogs
well
1. what does brown pigment have to do with melanin?
2. a nice looking anery also has no brown... i s'pose thats because it to is a hypomelanistic despite the fact that it is only showing melanin pigment? (dripping with sarcasm)

in other words anery is the retardation of red and brown pigment (type A) hypomelanistic is the retardation of melanin (black pigment). admitingly thier are examples out thier of snakes that don't have brown or black but than again you need to ask yourself...did the snake have any brown pigment to begin with?



Not exactly, the brown is a combination of the red and black pigment. Hence, an anery has no brown because the red is gone and only the black remains. Now, of course hypos retain SOME melanin, so they have varying amounts of subdued black/brown coloration. As I said before, breeding 2 generations is the only way to know for sure whether this is a genetic color mutation or just an odd variant.

[diablo snakefarm]

I agree I dont like seamus as much as the next guy but I refuse to even answer his random ramblings.Keep reptiles here and mabe you and seamus can meet up and have it out somewhere else..

Jeremiah Ronsonet
Diablo Snake Farm

[diablohogs]

yeah true... i'll just ignore the guy.

thanks shaun that makes perfect sense to me. the pattern is like a reddish orange which is why i assumed it may be some form of hypo. red and yellow pigment with reduced black to where it would create a light reddish brown...no? look at the eye band and the color of the belly... it's pink and no black checkering whatsoever on the sides of the belly.

all i will learn from breeding it true by breeding the heterozygous offspring to the father is that it is a double recesive gene, given it only shows in around 50% of the offspring from the heterozygous to homozygous breeding, but that doesn't pinpoint the mutation, just that it is a double recesive gene. i wonder if thier is a more scientific way to understand the pattern mutation that our herps create/inherit. maybe if you preformed mitochondrial d.n.a. analysis on a normal example versus an example that is homozygous for the mutation you could than compare the two side by side.....

if only someone out thier with access to the proper equiptment would preform such experiments or offer such a service to the breeding/collecting public, so people out there could find out for sure if thier animal is a pure amelinistic alterna that way when one is finally obtained that is pure alterna that person won't get laughed off the planet. we would at least be able to classify the different mutations better. don't they already perform similar tests on birds for breeding?

[Seamus Haley]

1. what does brown pigment have to do with melanin?

Melanin is the pigment which produces the visual effects of both black AND BROWN.

As I said... no understanding of ANYTHING herp related. I mean NONE, this sort of thing is covered in junior high school biology classes Chad, you really are one of the most ignorant individuals I have ever had the displeasure to "meet" on a forum.

Incidentally... having seen the picture of your massive movie theater screen sized forehead I really have to wonder... How many chromosones have you got exactly? Having a couple extra would explain both your obviously deformed physical features and your apparant mental deficiencies. Kind of an excuse if you will for your inability to function on a normal level (mentally of course).

[diablohogs]

you seen my reply and it took you 3 days (at least) to repond. i'm actually shocked you went to jr. high. wonders never cease. anyhow like i said this is not the place to "fight" it out. i'm here strictly to use the forum for what its intended for. you... other than to try to improve you're own self esteem, have no place here. the whole brown comment was a good one though... except someone already pointed that out.

c'mon now seamus, your mom likes my forehead. she says it makes me look like a young don johnson.

so, omnipotent one, what caused a pacific gopher to change from a green/brown patterned snake with black spots along the side of its belly to a snake with orange pattern and pink spots along the sides of the belly. couldn't be a obvious lack of melanin right or did you forget that hypo means reduced? guess they didn't teach you that in your class cool guy. maybe you were to busy calling the teacher an idiot to listen. once again hop on over to richard evans website... here lemme help you... West Texas Reptiles (http://www.albinohognose.com) now look at all the pretty pictures of western hognose he has. see the ones labeled hypo... course you do cause you're really smart and stuff. now look at the picture... oh no i mean the big one...you'll have to click on the little picture to see it, there you go!! hey wait... it has brown... that can't be....


can anyone post a picture of a hypomelanistic pacific gopher or any hypo pituophis so i can compare the two? thanks in advance.

p.s. all do respect to the webmaster/moderater but that was within the guidlines right? at least i didn't cuss this time.... :)