Allen Both - Reptile Kingdom

[Thmpr134]

I would like to place another word of caution against doing business with Allen Both of Reptile Kingdom. On November 24th I shipped a fair-sized order to Allen after a couple of e-mails for pricing purposes. The order arrived fine, and I expected payment within a short time period.

As my e-mail record below shows, I contacted him on December 4th to ascertain the status of the payment. I was led to believe that he had already sent the payment and I should be expecting it within a day or two. When no payment arrived I e-mailed again 9 days later, only to be told that the payment had indeed been sent over a week previous. I waited another two days and requested that he cancel the previous check and Paypal me immediately, or send another check along with an express tracking number. This e-mail was completely ignored. Only after another e-mail threatening to add another “bad guy” post to the BOI was I given the courtesy of a reply. However, this reply indicated that no payment has yet been sent, along with another excuse as to why I am not yet paid. I am now following through with the post that I cautioned him I would be adding.

I don’t enjoy posting anything bad about anyone, as I know how hard it is to build a reputation and how much harder yet it is to maintain it. However I feel that I have been lied to and I would like to caution other breeders to obtain payment from Allen prior to shipping their stock to him. I had read some of the negative posts about him in the past, however I was naive enough to believe that our prior business relationship was enough collateral to guarantee a smooth transaction. I have purchased from Allen many times in the past as I was a store-owner from 1999-2005. I have also sold to him in the subsequent years as I have been breeding consistently since 2002. I am very disappointed in the results of this transaction due to the money he is holding being what I was counting on to purchase Christmas presents for my family. Had this payment come in a timely manner, my shopping would now be complete. However, I am now going to have to complete my shopping in a hurried manner, to say nothing of having to come up with the money for the presents from another source.

Should Allen follow through with a payment, I will notify everyone at that time.



Re: Payment‏
To see messages related to this one, group messages by conversation.
2:52 PM
Reply ▼Reply
Reply all
Forward
Delete
Junk
Mark as unread
Mark as read
Delete all from sender
Print message
View message source
Show message history
Hide message history
Show details
Hide details reptkingdom@aol.comreptkingdom@aol.com

Send email
Find email Add to contactsTo Bryan Cole
From: reptkingdom@aol.com
Sent: Fri 12/17/10 2:52 PM
To: Bryan Cole (thmpr134@msn.com)


Bryan. I honestly am sorry to have caused you any issues. I am in new York until monday and have tried to access my paypal from my phone but it is not working. I want to clear this up as soon as possible when I get back. We have done business in the past and all was fine. I satisfied all issues from the boi and in most cases were miscommunication or issues out of my control. If I had known the money was such a time sensitive thing I would have paid closer attention to the whole thing and like I said I didn't want to cause you any problems. I would have rushed the money to you and not been lax but it seemed these were animals that weren't moving well and I figured maybe I could help you turn then
Sorry. Will clear it up ASAP
Allen
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



3:14 PM
Reply ▼Reply
Reply all
Forward
Delete
Junk
Mark as unread
Mark as read
Delete all from sender
Print message
View message source
Show message history
Hide message history
Show details
Hide details reptkingdom@aol.comreptkingdom@aol.com

Send email
Find email Add to contactsTo Bryan Cole
From: reptkingdom@aol.com
Sent: Fri 12/17/10 3:14 PM
To: Bryan Cole (thmpr134@msn.com)


Bryan. This whole thing seriously upsets me. I don't want to scrooge anyones holidays. if I can find a way to take care of this sooner I will. I am out of town working another business venture trying to survive and pay my household bills so I just have my phone and I can't get the paypal to work from it. Again I appologize
Allen
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bryan Cole <thmpr134@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:44:48 -0600
To: <reptkingdom@aol.com>
Subject: RE: Payment


Allen,
I still don't have the payment from you. I had heard of your reputation via the BOI, but since you and I have done business for several years with no problems, I took a shot with this shipment. Now I'm regretting it.
You've destroyed my Christmas shopping plans. Thanks a lot, man.
You've also left me no choice but to put up a negative post about you on the BOI. I hate doing this. I don't like to do anything to affect anyone's reputation, and I don't like the way that so many of the BOI posts get distorted and overblown. I'll wait another day to post, but if I don't have that money in my Paypal account by 5:00PM tomorrow I will post our entire e-mail conversation along with a warning against doing business with you. It sucks having to go this route, as you and I have enjoyed a successful business relationship for several years. Hopefully you will contact me tonight or tomorrow morning.

Bryan

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain


12/13/10
Reply ▼Reply
Reply all
Forward
Delete
Mark as unread
Mark as read
Delete all from sender
Print message
View message source
Show message history
Hide message history
Show details
Hide details Bryan Cole Bryan Colethmpr134@msn.com

Change picture
View profileTo reptkingdom@aol.com
From: Bryan Cole (thmpr134@msn.com)
Sent: Mon 12/13/10 5:21 PM
To: reptkingdom@aol.com


Allen,
The mail came today and I still don't have a payment. Please cancel your previous check and either Paypal me immediately or send another check by certified mail with a tracking number. Thanks for your time.

Bryan

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Payment
To: thmpr134@msn.com
From: reptkingdom@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 13:55:53 +0000

Hi Bryan. I sent it out over a week ago now. You should have it. I am not trying to mess you up. Keep me posted sorry

Allen Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bryan Cole <thmpr134@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 07:42:41 -0600
To: <reptkingdom@aol.com>
Subject: RE: Payment


Allen,
I'll try this again: Please let me know what day you sent the check. I still don't have it am an beginning to become a little wary of when I will receive payment. I understand if you've been busy, but I don't believe that that is any excuse for not following through with payment. You currently are holding the money for my Christmas shopping and I'm running out of time to get it done. Please send me the payment right away, or at least take a minute to respond to this e-mail to let me know when to expect it. Thank you for your time.

Bryan

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain



RE: Payment‏
To see messages related to this one, group messages by conversation.
12/09/10
Reply ▼Reply
Reply all
Forward
Delete
Mark as unread
Mark as read
Delete all from sender
Print message
View message source
Show message history
Hide message history
Show details
Hide details Bryan Cole Bryan Colethmpr134@msn.com

Change picture
View profileTo reptkingdom@aol.com
From: Bryan Cole (thmpr134@msn.com)
Sent: Thu 12/09/10 7:16 AM
To: reptkingdom@aol.com


Allen,
I hate to be a pest, but I still don't have the check yet. What day did you send it out? Please let me know.

Bryan

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Payment
To: thmpr134@msn.com
From: reptkingdom@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 19:30:20 +0000

Hey Bryan. Just sent the check the end of the week. I was waiting for some credit cards to clear to avoid problems. What is the best diet for the shinis? Let me know and keep me posted as to when you get the check

Allen Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bryan Cole <thmpr134@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 12:39:11 -0600
To: <reptkingdom@aol.com>
Subject: Payment


Hey Allen,
Just wondering if you'd sent the check for the shipment I sent you on November 24th? Please let me know the status.

Thanks,
Bryan

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain

[JudyC]

The fact that he would so readily LIE about having sent previous payments...and then not even bother to address that little tidbit or apologize for it.....says a lot. I hope you get your money, but I seriously doubt it will be anytime in 2010. :rolleyes_ Hopefully he'll prove me wrong. But the whole "I'm out of town and can't paypal with my phone" is a very lame excuse...and coming on top of such blatant lies...doesn't speak well for his intentions. :(

[bkline]

Just curious what was the total amount agreed upon and what did you sell him. Also how did you guys agree on payment and how soon after it arrived

[Thmpr134]

I sold him about 25 individual Asian rat snake babies of various species and a pair of Shinisaurus babies. The total was just over $1300.

Bryan Cole

[Thmpr134]

Oh, and we didn't agree on a time frame for a payment (I know, my bad). The reason I didn't worry about it was our previous relationship. I had never had trouble with payment from him before.

[shelliebear]

....How could he not know it was time sensitive (the payment)? You had emailed him at least once prior to that email stating that the money was required ASAP for Christmas shopping. :/
I don't know how he could have missed that. :shrug01:

[Drew Zaun]

This is unfortunate. I used to know Allen, I worked with him about 13 years ago or so. Have you made him aware of this thread? I am sure and really hoping there is a simple explanation and prompt payment heading your way soon.

Sorry to hear about this...$1300 is a lot of clams.

[Drew Zaun]

I just sent Allan an email, among other things asking that he address this, either here or to the OP.

Unless he is 180 degrees from the Allan I used to know, he will certainly get the OP paid. He was always a little scattered and unorganized, sometimes forgetfull (though mostly that cost him?) but he was nothing short of 100% honest when I worked with him.

I am not offering up excuses OR defending him in this, but rather trying to give the OP a little hope that money is or soon will be on its way.

[Thmpr134]

Drew,
I really hope he does address this. He's never been anything but honest and prompt with me in the past, however I feel like I've been given the run-around for several weeks now. He had ample opportunity to remit payment and either chose not to, or wasn't able to. Either way, he is witholding a payment that should have been sent without any of this hassle.

[omni]

If you owe someone, I don't understand why lie? Just man up, tell the truth, maybe you are broke, and in a bad situation. Is that really so hard to admit?

Saying it was already sent, then more fabrication why not having paid for the animals just seems so dishonest.
I think owing on a shipment and nothing was selling to pay it off, at least scrape up $25/week in good faith show intent to pay.

[Drew Zaun]

Drew,
I really hope he does address this. He's never been anything but honest and prompt with me in the past, however I feel like I've been given the run-around for several weeks now. He had ample opportunity to remit payment and either chose not to, or wasn't able to. Either way, he is witholding a payment that should have been sent without any of this hassle.

I can't disagree. Hopefully he comes through for you on Monday.

[Amelanistic Orca]

Wondering if you'll think he is a "good guy" enough to deal with again?? lol.. One glance at the bottom of this page tells me all I need to know about the ____....

[Drew Zaun]

Wondering if you'll think he is a "good guy" enough to deal with again?? lol.. One glance at the bottom of this page tells me all I need to know about the ____....

Hmm, there does appear to be some history:rolleyes:

But then again there have been some that came to his defense by saying he does a booming business and very few complaints. I also see that all his issues have been closed out? It shouldn't take posting here or threats or even weeks to close a deal but if it is only every once in several dozens of deals, I don't know...some might say crap happens and some might say who cares no excuses, both are right for those who believe one way or the other.

Would I deal with Allen again? I would, but I would not make that decision for you or anyone else. It depends on how you interpret the threads and your own personal risk threshold. Having known and worked with Allen I might have a different view than someone who only knows him from here. And then again he could be completely different from the guy I knew way back when, its been awhile and people can change. From what I have seen so far, it looks like most of his customers and deals are good to go, every now and then a bad one crops up and he is slow to respond, but does make good in the end. I think at the moment I am in the every now and then crap happens camp, and I reserve the right to stay here or switch teams, depending on what happens in the future. How's that for fence riding?:thumbsup:

[Patrick@ColorfulCreatures]

I had the same problems with him and he told me the EXACT same lies. He did however eventually pay, just stay on it. Anyone out there who expects to get paid the way any good transaction goes obviously needs to avoid this liar and flipper. He seems to pay whenever he finally squeezes through his bills.

[ljsreptiles]

I had an issue with Allen as well. he owed me $900, after many many lies and him sending paypal payments that he knew wouldn't go through...it took months to get my money. I had to threaten to show up at his table at a show to get my money. At the time I was a vendor at the same show as well. I've never heard any good stories about him from people I know that have done business with him.

[crotalusadamanteus]

3 warnings with his name just this year. How'd that slip by you?

Hope it pans out for you in the end.

[Thmpr134]

I had hoped Allen would take care of this by now, but his latest e-mail isn't what I was expecting. I've posted it below along with my reply.

My questions is, am I expecting too much for him to honor his end of our deal? He has offered to send back the animals that haven't sold up to now, but I'm not very excited about the idea of shipping animals back in these temps. If, by chance, the animals happen to freeze during a shipping delay, how am I to expect any payment from him for compensation?

And truthfully, I'm not very confident in his husbandry after these past few weeks. If he can't take care of his financial situation, how am I to expect him to administer the proper care to animals he hasn't even paid for? In my opinion, being lax in one aspect of your business may be an indicator of how you view all aspects of your business. I've never had any problems with animals I've purchased from him, but as I said, this most recent deal with him has left me feeling increasingly cautious.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Allen,
I understand how you feel and believe me, I also wish it had not come to this. I don't like saying negative things about anyone, especially someone that I had a great business relationship with in the past. However, in my opinion you put yourself in this predicament and it's up to you to make it right.

There are a couple of problems with your proposal. Number one, if you sent the check after the White Plains show and it was never cashed, the money should still be available to send the payment. Besides that, you indicated in your last e-mail that the only reason you weren't sending the payment at that time was that your phone would not work with Paypal.
Number two, I'm not very open to the idea of shipping animals back during the coldest time of the year. Not to mention the fact that I haven't seen these animals for almost a month and don't know what kind of care they have received in the interim. No offense, but your recent actions haven't encouraged me regarding your business practices.

The bottom line is, we had a deal. You agreed to purchase an allotted number of animals for a price and it's your responsibility to adhere to the terms of that agreement. I am very willing to post on the BOI if you make good on your end of our deal. I will let everyone know that in the end, you did what was right. Having said that, I am also very willing to post this most recent e-mail transaction which will not go over well with people that read it. Honestly, it looks like you're trying to back out of an agreed-upon deal which won't sit well with other potential buyers/sellers.

Please Paypal me the full amount due and I will immediately post that you took care of the problem. Once again, I'm sorry it came to this. I just want what was agreed to in the first place.

Bryan

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time, and your government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: thmpr134@msn.com
Subject: Re: Payment
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:42:19 -0500
From: reptkingdom@aol.com


Bryan, i would like to resolve this whole thing today if possible. I could explain in detail everything that went on with this whole deal but people will just call me a liar anyway so it seems pointless. I did indeed send a check after the White Plains reptile show i did because there was money available and i wanted to get it to you, why you didn't receive it i don't know but i honestly sent it. I also have been out of town a lot working on another venture, also not a lie. I did have some of these animals pre-sold at White Plains which is why i didn't mind taking so many and felt would be able to pay you in a timely fashion. Long story short the buyer backed out, it was another dealer and he said he didn't make enough at the show to take the agreed animals. Since i did well at the show i still sent you the check. Now, due to other things beyond my control money is tighter and i am sittnig on animals which as you know as sometimes difficult to sell. So, to resolve this for you, myself and the boi give me your address for receiving some of the animals and i will send them back to you and i will paypal you today for the ones that are gone. Give me the address for shipping and the paypal address and i will get it all wrapped up. Again, i have known you for quite a while and never wanted any dealing to go like this

Allen

[Drew Zaun]

I do not think you are out of line expecting the original deal to be honored, if people could back out like this how would anyone ever conduct business at all?

That being said though you have a tough decision to make.

A- take back the remaining animals and all that entails in order to limit your loss.

B- refuse and wait for an undetermined amount of time to get your money.

I do not envy you at all.

[crotalusadamanteus]

To: thmpr134@msn.com
Subject: Re: Payment
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:42:19 -0500
From: reptkingdom@aol.com


Bryan, i would like to resolve this whole thing today if possible. I could explain in detail everything that went on with this whole deal but people will just call me a liar anyway so it seems pointless. I did indeed send a check after the White Plains reptile show i did because there was money available and i wanted to get it to you, why you didn't receive it i don't know but i honestly sent it. I also have been out of town a lot working on another venture, also not a lie. I did have some of these animals pre-sold at White Plains which is why i didn't mind taking so many and felt would be able to pay you in a timely fashion. Long story short the buyer backed out, it was another dealer and he said he didn't make enough at the show to take the agreed animals. Since i did well at the show i still sent you the check. Now, due to other things beyond my control money is tighter and i am sittnig on animals which as you know as sometimes difficult to sell. So, to resolve this for you, myself and the boi give me your address for receiving some of the animals and i will send them back to you and i will paypal you today for the ones that are gone. Give me the address for shipping and the paypal address and i will get it all wrapped up. Again, i have known you for quite a while and never wanted any dealing to go like this

Allen

What the hell does that have to do with anything? If you wrote the check, and counted the money as gone in your register, it should still be in your account because the check was never received. Just send it via PayPal and be done with it.

Seems to me all you're doing is trying to make your excuses as you go. There is just so many holes in that comment, nobody with a lick of common sense would buy it. :NoNo:

I do not think you are out of line expecting the original deal to be honored, if people could back out like this how would anyone ever conduct business at all?

That being said though you have a tough decision to make.

A- take back the remaining animals and all that entails in order to limit your loss.

B- refuse and wait for an undetermined amount of time to get your money.

IF you get anything at all.

I agree for the most part. Although risky, does it really look like you're getting any refund at this time? Get back what you can. The problem with winter shipping is improper packing, and delays. As long as it's packed right, and delivered timely, there usually isn't a problem. I've shipped plenty in the winter.

I mean who knows, he ain't smart enough to tell a believable story, but he might be smart enough to know how to ship an animal correctly. :shrug01:

[Drew Zaun]

Just some food for thought...

Reading through the various bad deals he has been a part of here (and gosh there sure seem to be a lot of them) one thing that I noticed is he has eventually made good. So while that does seem like a gigantic "IF" you have posted there, it might be just a wee bit smaller because of that.

The lies he put in that email, and they are lies, are very common to his previous posts. I mean if he mailed checks via the Pony Express they would have arrived by now...no?

But what I would be concerned about are what appears to be a very large quantity of animals that passed through his facility, and one wonders how many wc? I'm just saying...:shrug01:

[Patrick@ColorfulCreatures]

To: thmpr134@msn.com
Subject: Re: Payment
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:42:19 -0500
From: reptkingdom@aol.com


Bryan, i would like to resolve this whole thing today if possible. I could explain in detail everything that went on with this whole deal but people will just call me a liar anyway so it seems pointless. I did indeed send a check after the White Plains reptile show i did because there was money available and i wanted to get it to you, why you didn't receive it i don't know but i honestly sent it. I also have been out of town a lot working on another venture, also not a lie. I did have some of these animals pre-sold at White Plains which is why i didn't mind taking so many and felt would be able to pay you in a timely fashion. Long story short the buyer backed out, it was another dealer and he said he didn't make enough at the show to take the agreed animals. Since i did well at the show i still sent you the check. Now, due to other things beyond my control money is tighter and i am sittnig on animals which as you know as sometimes difficult to sell. So, to resolve this for you, myself and the boi give me your address for receiving some of the animals and i will send them back to you and i will paypal you today for the ones that are gone. Give me the address for shipping and the paypal address and i will get it all wrapped up. Again, i have known you for quite a while and never wanted any dealing to go like this

Allen[/QUOTE]

The reason people will call you a liar is because you consistantly lie. You claimed to have sent me a check that for whatever reason also didn't make it and when requesting paypal payment, you gave me the same thing about being out of town and not being able to send it from your phone. Not to mention one of your excuses was also that the other guy backed out that you were supposed to run into at a show. I think you should be at least smart enough to diversify your lies.

[Focal]

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but this seems like this guy makes orders for various reptiles and doesn't pay until until he flips them and then eventually pays the person back and keeps the profit. Sounds more like he would rather be a middle man than a buyer.

[Killer Chams]

As Focal put it. It sounds like from his statements he's expecting to get the animals fronted to him and flip em. Sounds like your basically bankrolling his business with your animal stock. Hard choice whether to take back the remaining snakes or not. I think I'd get my animals back and quarantine them for a few weeks. At least you'd get some compensation for the few he sold and you could sell the rest to a responsible buyer.

[alvincent]

As Focal put it. It sounds like from his statements he's expecting to get the animals fronted to him and flip em. Sounds like your basically bankrolling his business with your animal stock. Hard choice whether to take back the remaining snakes or not. I think I'd get my animals back and quarantine them for a few weeks. At least you'd get some compensation for the few he sold and you could sell the rest to a responsible buyer.

You are absolutely correct, people are fronting his business with their animals/resources....

The only issues I see with getting the animals back is

1.) Who pays for shipping?
2.) It will be after the holidays (The op needed the money before xmas.)
3.) The op would be rewarding his terrible behavior by giving in to him.
4.) That money the op is out of was in most cases already spent on other things. Now they have to use more resources to allocate for his lack of responsibility.

The only thing I see is taking care of debt owed, and that is by biting the bullet and sending payment promptly.

I sincerely hope he sends you the money owed + some to fix their relationship.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I don't understand why this BS with him continues. He has a known history of not paying (who in their right mind sends before payment in the first place?). He frequents several shows a month all across the East Coast and does well; he doesn't have a lack of income in the least.

Personally, I wouldn't take the animals back. The likeliness of him practicing any form of quarantine procedures with these animals is slim to none. Anyone that has seen his table knows that he deals heavily with imports, side by side with any captive bred animals he may have. I wouldn't put my animals at risk and unless you have a separate building, it really shouldn't even be considered.

[JonathanElfstrom]

My father and I have had a similar experience with Allen. He ordered $700 ($741.40 with shipping) worth of Avicularia versicolor spiderlings in mid-September. My father made the mistake of sending the spiders before receiving payment, and we hadn't checked for any reviews of Reptile Kingdom or Allen prior to this.

Allen received the spiders and called to let us know that they were all in great condition. Some time passed. In mid-October, my dad asked me to see if I could get in touch with Allen, because he still hadn't received payment and his calls were not being returned. Eventually, my dad got so fed up with the situation that he told me that he couldn't deal with Allen's evasiveness and lies any more and asked me to take care of the situation.

I have been able to get in touch with Allen occasionally. He doesn't usually return calls or e-mails, but if I make sure to call and e-mail him every day for about a week, eventually I get some sort of reply.

On November 8, Allen made a paypal deposit of $350, a little less than half of what was owed.

I am still trying to get the remaining balance paid. My biggest frustration through all of this has been the lack of communication. Allen just avoids talking to me for weeks on end, then I get some excuse/lie and maybe a promise of some sort, almost all of which have been broken.

I will keep this forum updated if I do receive the rest of what is owed.

Jonathan

[DavidBeard]

I can't believe so many people are willing to send their animals out without receiving payment.

I also can't believe so many people are willing to deal with a KNOWN bad guy.

Thats like sticking your hand on a hot stove, and coming here and blaming the stove. You KNEW the stove was hot.....yet you chose to burn yourself anyway. Makes no sense.

[edsclassifieds58]

Contact the following person in Toms River Zoning Dept.
Bernard Mackle

Toms River Zoning Dept.
33 Washington St.
Toms River, New Jersey 08753
(732) 341-1000, ext. 8359

http://tomsrivertownship.com/index.php/departments.html

Mr. Mackle has previously be notified of Mr. Both's activities.
I THINK Mr. Both is dealing out of two locations. I don't think either
of them is zoned comercially. If they receive more complaints about
this guy they will eventually have to do something to curtail his business.

I had a problem with this guy and it went on for over a year until I found
out he was buying from a dealer in Fl. all the time telling me he was
doing his best to pay me. I heard all the excuses and had tons of e-mails. I
did all I could to help this guy but he's no good. I don't feel one bit sorry for
this type of person. He's doing all he can to avoid getting a JOB.

To bad you can't post stuff like this on ks.com
I'm not to thrilled with them either.

[Drew Zaun]

Just an FYI the Hooper Ave. address on his website IS in a commercial zone.

[mikeyt]

I have to agree with Steph an David on this one. I have seen this same situation many times on fauna before, and have also said it myself many times before. WHY ! WHY! WHY!

Do people continue to support and make purchases from known bad guys? Because they obviously dont know better, thats why.

I mean I can see if you dont have a clue about a person or their dealings that you may get taken, BUT I have seen on here where people check the BOI and can clearly see that the person they are about to do business with has a bad rep, yet still admittedly give them a shot.

I know this isnt going to go over well, but if you fall into that group, I feel no sympathy for you and you deserve what you get.

The BOI is an excellent source of info, and be glad that it exists so that we can find out about the "bad guys......USE IT

[edsclassifieds58]

If I recall when I contacted the Toms River Zoning Dept. I was told
the 616 Montgomery Ave address (the address I was given to ship to)
was not commercially zoned. Go to Google Earth and enter 616 Montgomery
Ave, Toms River, New Jersey, 08757 and it will take you to a house with a
two cars in the driveway, a swimming pool, and a nice looking patio.
It's been over a year since last I spoke with the zoning dept. If I'm wrong
about this I'm sorry......but not as sorry as you're going to be if you keep
defending and dealing with this guy. This might be the type of guy who eventually
seriously hurts someone and (after the fact) people say.....gee all the warning signs
were there. How come no one did anything? If you notice; most of the good posts
about this guy were date far in the past. It appears to be a progessive downward
spiral over years. If you want to defend this guy go ahead.....you deserve him.
Remember there are 3 types of people in this world......Victims, Potential Victims, and
Criminals. Which one do you want to be? If he has a problem with what I post about him
tell him to come and see me.

[Drew Zaun]

If I recall when I contacted the Toms River Zoning Dept. I was told
the 616 Montgomery Ave address (the address I was given to ship to)
was not commercially zoned. Go to Google Earth and enter 616 Montgomery
Ave, Toms River, New Jersey, 08757 and it will take you to a house with a
two cars in the driveway, a swimming pool, and a nice looking patio.
It's been over a year since last I spoke with the zoning dept. If I'm wrong
about this I'm sorry

No, that is a residential address alright. I was specifically talking about the Hooper Ave. address listed on his website. That goes to a strip mall in a shopping district. That is all I said.


.but not as sorry as you're going to be
Are you threatening me Ed? If so I hope you can back it up. I hate being teased:rofl:
if you keep
defending and dealing with this guy.
For the record Ed, I was hired at my present job in March of 1997, and it was at least a month or two prior that Allen and I went in different directions. I have not had any contact with him or even heard his name until this thread popped up. I am not "dealing" with him, and I stated early on I am not defending him either. He should pay his debts promptly, and should have cash on hand for his orders, not relying on new deals to pay past ones. His business model sounds like a Ponzi scheme to my un-educated eye.

This might be the type of guy who eventually
seriously hurts someone
:icon_bs: Were you partaking of the New Years punch when you wrote this?:rofl:

It is quite obvious that Allen's business model sucks, and that he is very slow to pay his debts. I am not sure how you get from that to your line? Please enlighten me. That is not an idle request Ed, that is a serious allegation there that Allen might be dangerous. Post your evidence or retract your rhetoric.

If you notice; most of the good posts
about this guy were date far in the past. It appears to be a progessive downward
spiral over years.
Yep, he was scattered and unorganized but honest when I knew him, and since then those qualities appear to have been allowed to fester into a never ending trial of debts and bill collectors. I can not disagree, and have even stated something similar in this thread.


If you want to defend this guy go ahead.....you deserve him.
Remember there are 3 types of people in this world......Victims, Potential Victims, and
Criminals. Which one do you want to be? If he has a problem with what I post about him
tell him to come and see me.

I disagree Ed, with billions of individuals in this world, there is a whole bunch more than 3 types of people.

As for if I deserve Allen, or might deserve him...I would rather deal with bad business types than people who think it is cool to post like some sort of tough guy on Internet forums.

Put up or shut up Ed. I have no interest in stroking your mouse balls...

[edsclassifieds58]

First of all let me explains something. Allen Both is a lier. Period.
I took care of Allen by sending him extra stuff including some
wood in a seperate shipment that he may or may not have sold....to help him out.
I didn't care.
As for you being specific about his addressd....all you said; if I recall, was he was in
a commercial zone. I never dealt with him at that address. I knew nothing about
about a shop in a commercial area. Never. So; you weren't specific...you didn't say
this address or that address. As for --- but not as sorry as you're going to be ---
how do you take that as a threat? You're reading more into this. I don't see what you're
talking about? Maybe; to be more specific, I should have said---you may be sorry ---if you deal with him. However;
from what I'm reading it sounds like you're the one doing the challenging. ????? ---
"For the record Ed, I was hired at my present job in March of 1997"--- What are you talking about....I'm talking about Allen....what are you talking about? There is nothing to retract.
I said he MIGHT be the type to hurt someone. Get it; MIGHT. I never drink, smoke, or do
drugs. Ok; you agreed on the old good posts. And you agreed that he's gone down hill.
Where do you get it that I'm a tough guy and making tough guy posts. I'm addressing Allen
Both. Where you come into this is beyond me. You knock my posts and at the same time you (in most cases)agree with me. I didnt bother Allen Booth until I read all the bad posts about the guy. Then I attempted to do something about it. I contacted the zoning dept.
All of a sudden you're jumping on me! I tried to help other people. My dealings with
Allen Both were finished. I had no axe to grind. Now I get this kind of response.
I don't normally look into Fauna Classifieds. I have most people contact me via e-mail
because I don't have the time to look everywhere. I collect and sell wild herps.
I sent Allen Both his first shipment C.O.D. FedEx. FedEx for some reason gave the shipment
to the US Post Office to deliver (according to Allen Both). The first check (only check) I received from Allen Both bounced. I heard all the storys/excuses. As for my "mouse nuts"
here's my e-mail address...
ebnagel@hotmail.com
and phone # 1 575 4571
Edward B. Nagelmeyer
622 W. Spruce St. #8
Deming, New Mexico 88030
Better to e-mail me as I'm often out of range for cell.

Oh; by the way, I tried to help people out by posting something about FedEx on ks.com
and was threatened with expulsion. I voluntarily expelled myself. Like FedEx I don't carry
contracts around in my back pocket. I'll be in Las Cruces all day today you may be able to
reach me by phone in that area. Give me a call; we'll talk.

ED

[Drew Zaun]

As for you being specific about his addressd....all you said; if I recall, was he was in
a commercial zone. I never dealt with him at that address. I knew nothing about
about a shop in a commercial area. Never. So; you weren't specific...you didn't say
this address or that address.

For crying out load Ed, my entire post on the subject was one freaking sentence...here it is:

Just an FYI the Hooper Ave. address on his website IS in a commercial zone.

I don't see how that is not specific enough for you:shrug01:

"you'll be sorry" is a classic American threat. Ordinarily what you wrote I would have taken as a prediction that one day Allen would screw me too, but since you had to add "tell him to come see me" at the end, I took it differently.

And I guessed correctly as well. You are from New Mexico, both Allen and I are from New Jersey...couple thousand miles away. But sure, after 13 + years of not talking to him, I will be sure to send him your way:rofl:

[edsclassifieds58]

Lighten up Drew. I originally thought I was making a general post. It wasn't aimed
at you. I can see now why you took offense to it. I don't even know who
you are. It wasn't aimed at you. I haven't spent much time on this site and my typing skills are not perfect....he's a lier (liar). Also; my visions is not so hot....even with glasses.
That's why I was confused....who are you talking about....what are you talking about.
All I did was attempt to add to the threads. I thought I was doing a quick post not a quick
reply. I received an e-mail from an associate stating that there were recent posts about
Mr. Both....I read them briefly and made a post. That's all. You have my apologies.
You can still come out and see me if you want.....but don't come until the summer; there's
no herps out now. Again; you have my apologies and if you want to come out here I'll take you to places you and other people have never been and see sights you'll never forget.
Things happen to you when you turn 60.

Here's a link to my photos....http://cid-0a59d1cd74dbf59b.photos.live.com/albums.aspx

Give me a call some time.

Ed Nagelmeyer
1 575 694-4571 or e-mail me...ebnagel@hotmail.com

[edsclassifieds58]

By the way; I'm from Jersey too.
Please do....send HIM my way.

EEEEEDE

[Drew Zaun]

Ok, sorry I took things the wrong way.:)

If I get a chance to do some herping out your way I will look you up...:thumbsup:

[edsclassifieds58]

Ok Good
If you should want to communicate do it by e-mail
as I don't look here often.

Ed Nagelmeyer
ebnagel@hotmail.com

[ratkingrodents]

This sucks. I've known Allen for a long time...over ten years. We used to work together in a pet store before he opened his own business.

He was always really good to me. I remember him as a really good guy...a little high strung...but a really good guy.

I'm sure that whatever happened here is just a product of his bad luck. I'm sure that he doesn't want everyone here to know his life story, but he is just about the unluckiest SOB I've ever met.

If he did someone wrong and its within his power to fix it I am sure that he will try his best to fix it. That's about all I can say.

And I came in here to post something about an awesome buyer that I sold some rats to today LOL.

[Patrick@ColorfulCreatures]

Whatever his bad luck is shouldn't affect the numerous people he lies to about being able to pay for animals. I keep reading posts about how he used to be a good business to deal with, this is completely irrelevant being that he regulary requests animals that he can't afford and according to some, he should have no problem paying for. So he's either a struggling business who can't hold up to his end of the bargain or a thief who chooses to pay whenever it's convient to him, which neither of the two is acceptable in this industry. If that much bad luck is happening to him in this industry then perhaps its time he seeks another type of venture instead of screwing breeders who actually work really hard to produce the animals he's trying to flip.

[Reptiledans]

Bryan

I have done bussiness with Allen for several years, sometimes he is a little slow to pay but always seems to come thru. He is a stand up guy but like most is probably struggling to stay afloat in this crappy economy. Keep an open dialog of communication and I am sure he will pay you.. If he cant and you want your product back I am sure he would send it.

Remember folks, A lot of people read the comments on this forum, it very easy to cripple a small business.. Which means poor sales and one less outlet to sell your product.

Thanks for listening
Dan
Emerald Coast Exotics

[Patrick@ColorfulCreatures]

Not paying small time breeders can also cripple their business as well, so if you can't afford to not get paid then you should obviously avoid this person. He did eventually pay me but a couple of months later. Some people, like the person who planned their christmas around their deal , can't afford to wait around and eventually get paid. So I definitely hope people take caution when dealing with him, and there are plenty of other people out there who can afford to pay for the reptiles they request as I haven't had has much trouble getting paid as I did with him and this was our first and only transaction. I was extremely patient and workable with the deal and all he had to do was tell the truth that he didn't have my money and we could've worked it out. Instead, he lied about sending a check, then didn't paypal me cause he was out of town, then told me he spent my money in hopes of making more at a show but had a horrible show and no longer had my money. Point is, this guy will obviously say anything and who knows what the truth really is and should be avoided unless he has cash in hand.

[edsclassifieds58]

All Al had to do was tell me straight up that he didn't have the $$$
and tell me it would be quite a while before I got paid. Instead I had
a battle with FedEx for giving my shipment to the US Post Office to
deliver and they failed to collect the C.O.D. Al sent me a bad check.
He knew he had no funds in that account. I have a guy who owes me
$3,000 since August but he did me a favor by taking specimens that don't move
to easily. We made a deal from the start and he pays me when he can.
I had over 50 e-mails to Al and just got jerked around until I found out
that all along he was buying from a dealer in FL who I used to work for.
Last I heard he's got someone picking animals for him. So; if you're owed
$$$ he's using your dough to stay afloat. I can't put it any plainer and I
hate breaking the guys chops but it's not right. What do you say after
you say your sorry. I've seen this before....guys doing everything they
can to hold on to a business. The best thing for the guys health and family
is to go to work for someone....at least until he gets straightened out.
It's not going to get any better....this economy is still heading south.
If gasoline goes to $5.00 per gallon there won't be too much road collecting
and fewer herps available. I don't think people are going to pay for reptiles
when food has increased by maybe 15 to 20%.

Best of Luck to All of you including Al.

Ed Nagelmeyer

[akonitony]

I don't know the OP or the bad guy, and I don't want to cast stones, but it seems to me the problem basically boils down to the original agreement not having a timeline. I give some stuff to different shops nearby and basically let them have it on consignment, which is exactly what the OP did when he did not specify a timeline and get it in writing of some sort, preferably with a notary seal affixed. By posting a BOI bad guy thread, the chance of those animals selling decreases. In this economy, which is only going to get worse BTW, consignment is not such a bad thing. It is almost like expanding your shop without having to pay the overhead. You also don't have to feed or take care of the animals any more either. The main thing you eat is the opportunity costs, but if you have not received any orders for such animals, then you have not lost that either. That is the story for the OP.
Now for the bad guy: He seems to be relying on partial truth, which is not truth at all, in all or most of his dealings. He needs to realize other people like money too, and can spend it just as well, if not better, than he can. I know I like money, and I won't be surprised if 100% of the people reading this like money as well. Money = power. Power to make decisions rather than being told what to do. For every dollar he made since the time he accepted those animals, he should have sent at least half of it to the people he owed money to. Otherwise, he is a thief, plain and simple.
So what to do. The simple thing is the OP gave those animals away in hopes someone else could do what he said he would do for him. When you let anyone have something that is yours with only a verbal agreement, then you give them the power to make the decisions for you. I have about the same amount owed to me by various people (~$1350), it was cold-hard cash i gave them to help them out in hard times, and they all agreed to pay me ASAP, but with no written contract, only one agreed to pay by the end of that month, and two months later he wrote a check to me that bounced, and I know asking them to pay is going to go over like a pregnant nun, so I have written that debt off, and will be surprised if I ever see it. The bright side is it only cost me that much to give all three of those people an excellent reason why I can never trust them with money again. I am still cordial and polite to them, because in the long run, people matter more than money, but the only way they will ever get hold of a single penny of mine in the future is if they pay me back what they owe me. It really is as simple as that. Posting BOI bad guy threads like this is really a waste of time, IMHO, and the proof of that is the fact this thread had to happen at all when there were already numerous warnings about this deadbeat. One more is not going to make a big difference. I would just tell the guy pay me whenever you can, tell him you value him more than money, and leave it at that. Oh, and next time don't front anything you think you can sell in the next several months. There's my $0.02, and you can take it or leave it. Good day.

[AF Exotics]

Great post .Basically couldn't be said any better .

[Drew Zaun]

I don't know the OP or the bad guy, and I don't want to cast stones, but it seems to me the problem basically boils down to the original agreement not having a timeline. I give some stuff to different shops nearby and basically let them have it on consignment, which is exactly what the OP did when he did not specify a timeline and get it in writing of some sort, preferably with a notary seal affixed.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the ideas you put out there, but I have to disagree with this about as much as I can disagree with anything.

If you do not specifically state this is a consignment type transaction, or specify a payment plan, then payment in full is to be expected when goods or services are transferred.

Immediate exchange is the default, consignment or an account is the exception.

I do agree posting a bg thread in this type of situation is like :shootfoot, since you make it harder for Allen to move your stuff and pay you, but on the other hand what other recourse short of legal proceedings does the OP have?

Allen's apparent business model is a very liquid one, where merchandise and money fly in and out at an incredible pace. I bet if everything goes well that is poetry in motion...but it appears that things are not working so well...

[Thmpr134]

Anthony,
While in principal I would agree with your assessment, the reason I allowed this problem to happen to me was based upon a previous business relationship. Allen and I had done business quite a few times in the past and each of those transactions proved smooth. I was basing this decision on the (incorrect) belief that he valued my business as much as I valued his.
I have learned my lesson regarding Allen, and the intent of this post was to warn everyone again of shipping anything to him without advance payment. I understand that there are already several posts addressing this, but power also comes from information. The more data from various sources that is available, the better. Prospective sellers will now have another reason to question whether to ship to Allen, regardless of whatever relationship they may have had with him in the past.
I'm hoping he resolves this issue soon, but I'm also not basing any other financial decisions on it. Like you, I value relationships more than money, but I also don't want another seller that may not be able to afford it to be in this situation. I didn't want to post the original post, but I felt a bit of responsibility to let the herping community know what kind of person they may be choosing to deal with. Having said that, I would still continue to do business with him should he choose to remedy the problem. The only change will be that I will require payment prior to shipping.
Also, I will have to agree with Drew. Basing my perception on our past transactions and expecting payment as soon as the animals arrived is not out of line. I had a business history with Allen and a payment history that laid out how I would have expected all future transactions to go. A gentlemen's agreement is still an honorable thing for many people in this business.

[Patrick@ColorfulCreatures]

I don't know where anthony has been selling his animals but its an understood fact that when you ship the reptiles to a wholesaler they are to immediately send out payment after recieving and inspecting the animals unless some other agreement has been reached. Who the hell writes contracts in this business, the answer is no one. Having an email with terms stated is enough to pursue your money in small claims court. This industry runs on good faith and reputation, so posting in this forum is not a waste of time to let others know to avoid this person. Some people, like me, don't like to be owed money especially when I don't have to. Consignment is good and I do that as well but only for 1 or 2 animals, not over a thousand dollars worth of animals.

[edsclassifieds58]

Mine was supposed to be a C.O.D.
However; FedEx gave the shipment to the US Post Office for delivery.
They failed to collect the C.O.D. Al send me a check in a few days but
the check was bad. It took a year to collect about $1,200.

Hey; I no longer have an axe to grind in this. I was just posting the
problem. I have no more time for it. I have to let go of it.
That's good advice.....I give you animals -- You give me money---NOW.

Happy New Year.

Ed Naglemeyer

[JonathanElfstrom]

Update on my situation: Allen just sent me another $300, which brings him pretty close to being able to pay the rest off ($650 paid out of $741.40). I hope to see this situation resolved soon.

:) Jonathan

[Focal]

That's great! Nice to hear that he eventually comes thru, but it would be better if he let the sellers know they are gonna end up on a payment plan.

[edsclassifieds58]

Glad you're getting paid.
Great; how long did it take?
Ask him if he's buying from anyone else?

[JonathanElfstrom]

Spiders were sent mid-September, first payment of $350 came early November. This second payment came about four months after the spiders were shipped. I will post an update once the final payment is received...

As to whether he is buying from others, I don't know, nor do I feel it is really my business. I just want to get the rest of the payment and be done with the whole ordeal.

:) Jonathan

[akonitony]

Yeah, I think I have to backstep at this point and agree the guy is a deadbeat, lousy with business professionalism, and probably does not brush his teeth somedays until 10 or 11AM, oh wait, that last one is me. Nevermind. These threads can serve a great purpose, but only if they are taken seriously and adhered to. This guy needs to be blacklisted permanently with this shear volume of people he's screwed around with. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me... and burn me a third time, I probably deserved it.

[edsclassifieds58]

I don't know if he's completely screwed people over.....I know he lies....but I'm paid.
Only took a year. Johnathan; it IS your business to find out if he's doing business with
other people....he's using your $$ to stay afloat while ducking you. I had someone to sell
the animals I shipped him and could have been paid by them a lot sooner. If he had said
to me he could start paying me for 3-4 months I may has not done it or I may have done it.
Guys; I keep getting e-mails telling me there posts relative to this/the subject but I don't have time to look at them anymore. I hope everything works out for you and again, my
apologies to Drew for my misunderstanding. If you guys/girls want to see my photos follow
the link (copy & paste into browser)
http://cid-0a59d1cd74dbf59b.photos.live.com/albums.aspx?sa=385329942
It will take you to my Windows Live Photos of all the N.M. herps plus others.
Ed Nagelmeyer
ebnagel@hotmail.com

[ed hummel]

Spiders were sent mid-September, first payment of $350 came early November. This second payment came about four months after the spiders were shipped. I will post an update once the final payment is received...

As to whether he is buying from others, I don't know, nor do I feel it is really my business. I just want to get the rest of the payment and be done with the whole ordeal.

:) Jonathan

gettin any interest on your money?

[edsclassifieds58]

No; but he is! LOL

Ed Nagelmeyer

[JonathanElfstrom]

Update: today I received the final payment from Allen. It took eight months of hounding him and dealing with lies, excuses, complete lack of communication, etc., but in the end, he did pay the original amount in full (no, no interest, Ed, although I did a rough calculation one time and estimated that the interest would only be about $50, it was more my wasted time that I wish I could get back...)

All in all, I really doubt I will ever do business with Allen again. However, he did pay the full amount eventually (though it took a lot of hounding on my end to get that to happen...)

Jonathan

[mykl]

Why would you send him animals without getting the money first? Would he send you an animal without getting the money first? Would anyone really? Just curious.

[crotalusadamanteus]

A good friend, maybe. All others pay up front.