Everegreen Pet Supply in Spokane Valley...sick rodents!

[shelliebear]

Evergreen Pet Supply in Spokane Valley, WA sells live rodents as feeders. They are one of the few pet shops around here that usually have small feeder rats in stock.
I bought 4 small feeder rats the other day, and all but one of my snakes took the food. Since it was late at night and the shop had closed, I put the uneaten rat in my tank for such an occasion and gave it some food, water, etc.
I kept hearing this noise almost like a guinea pig. I looked it up and it seems these rat has a pretty bad respiratory infection. Her chest makes clicking noises, she gasps for air, sneezes and rubs her nose excessively. She isn't grooming herself.
I'm not a rat expert so I didn't know if this would spread to other rats or not. I bought more feeders last week and both of the rats I bought, a male and a female, had the same symptoms as the other one.
I'm worried to feed them to my snakes--if these rats have RI's then clearly they are not receiving good care let alone good nutrition. I don't think you get what you pay for if you pay 3.99$ for an albino rat, 4.99 for a hooded one, and they are sick. :/
I just wanted to let people know what my observations of the store are. I think for a while I'll have to go elsewhere for my rodents. :(
Their other animals seem to be ok, FYI.
Shellie

[Evergreen]

Just a FYI Evergreen Pet Supply is no relation to Evergreen Reptiles. We are in the same city but we only sell the animals that eat rodents :)

[shelliebear]

Yes, sorry, forgot to mention. (:

[shelliebear]

Evergreen Pet Supply didn't take the rodents back. They said they were worried the other rats would get sick...THEY ALREADY ARE.
Despite that, this proves that Evergreen does not take their animals to a vet. If they did, taking back the sick rats wouldn't be a problem because they could get them veterinary care, or even put them in a quarantine tank--but they don't have one, and they don't take them to the vet.
I'm definitely not buying from them again. :/

[JCCS]

It sucks that you got sick rats, but I really don't think that taking a feeder rat in to a veterinarian is a feasible solution. I think the better option would have been to give you back your money, cull these rats, and then figure out what they are doing to make their rats sick.

Chris

[deborahbroadus]

What substrate were you using for the rats Shellie? can you post a picture of the set up that you housed them in?

[shelliebear]

I had them on Aspen, then I went back to Evergreen and told them the rats I had bought were sick. The lady suggested giving them some red peppers from parrot food because the might be vitamin A deficient, so I bought some.
I had them in 41 qt tubs, the two girls together, the one boy. They were on Aspen at first and were already sneezing, so I changed to newspaper which I changed twice a day, they still continued sneezing, so next I tried paper towels, and they kept sneezing.
The boy had mucus in his nose, and one of his eyes would never open more than a tiny slit, because I think he was in pain. They all sounded more like guinea pigs than rats from the time I got them.
I can post pictures of the set up I had them in, but they are gone now. My mom wouldn't let me keep them in the house (hence why I tried to return them) so my dad took them on his paper route and let them go. I had no other choice. They are not allowed in the house. My mom has a phobia of them.
As for getting my money back, I would have been perfectly acceptable with that option--but they denied to give me my money back.
The guy said they won't get my snake sick, so they will still work as feeders, therefore I get no money back.
What's B.S. is I paid 4.99$ for each of those rats expecting healthy, good quality rats. I understand they are feeders, but don't they deserve a good life too? Shouldn't they be healthy? If the rats are sick, they're obviously not a good source of nutrition for my snakes.
I'm really bummed about the whole situation. :( I'm out all the money I spent on the parrot food for the rats (which didn't work), plus the money I spent on each rat, plus I called Evergreen before I left and the woman who answered the phone said they WOULD take them back, and then I arrived and they refused. So I'm out gas money too. :shrug01:
I just think it was distasteful on their part. I understand feeders are not pets, but I don't pay almost 5$ per rat for sick ones.

[shelliebear]

Photos of the set up coming in a moment. Most of the pictures I have was of the temporary tub I had before I moved them to the larger 41 qt. tubs (it's really small, but they weren't kept in there for more than a few hours). I can take pictures of the now-empty setup the girls were in. One moment, please.

[shelliebear]

This was taken seconds before I put newspaper in the tub as substrate. This is the 41 qt.:
http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/shelliebear17/rat%20photos/bW1jMS9EQ0lNLzEwMExHRENGL0ltYWdlMTIxNzIwMTAxOTEwMz YuanBn.jpg
This was Chips in the smaller container:
http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/shelliebear17/rat%20photos/bW1jMS9EQ0lNLzEwMExHRENGL0ltYWdlMTIxNzIwMTAxOTE4Mj YuanBn.jpg
Potato in the smaller container:
http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/shelliebear17/rat%20photos/bW1jMS9EQ0lNLzEwMExHRENGL0ltYWdlMTIxOTIwMTAyMDE4Mj guanBn.jpg
Potato again
http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/shelliebear17/rat%20photos/bW1jMS9EQ0lNLzEwMExHRENGL0ltYWdlMTIxOTIwMTAyMDE4Mz kuanBn.jpg
....Potato...
http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/shelliebear17/rat%20photos/bW1jMS9EQ0lNLzEwMExHRENGL0ltYWdlMTIxOTIwMTAyMDE4NT guanBn.jpg
Can upload more photos of the 41 qt. if you'd like.

[deborahbroadus]

Given your brief history (that I know of) it probably would have been great if you had also taken pictures of the rats (close ups).

I am sure if I brought some sick rats and the people told me that they wouldn't take them back, I would have been busy setting up my case beyond a shadow of doubt since we both know how the BOI works.

So far, you have not proven the rats were sick, you have not proven that your snakes did not eat the rats (dad let them go)...I do not find in your favor...sorry.

Others may feel differently.

[shelliebear]

That's why I posted this as an info thread and not a "Bad guy" because I knew I did not have incriminating evidence, Deborah...

[JCCS]

Both rats have very open eyes and appear to be eating, they couldn't have been too sick.

[deborahbroadus]

You beat me to it, I posted before seeing your pictures. I do not see mucus on the rats, they appear healthy to me. Good luck.

I am not sure about giving potato to rats, I think they aren't an approved food?

[shelliebear]

And as for proving my snakes didn't eat them....There's...REALLY no way to do that, unless you want me to go take a photo of all my snakes right now to prove their bellies are empty. How does that relate to the fact that they were sick ANYWAY? Whether I fed them to my snakes or not they were still in poor health. :shrug01:

[Amelanistic Orca]

"Let them go?" Grrrrrreat Scott!!

[JCCS]

It would be pertinent info because if you fed them to your snakes, you would have thought that they were good enough to use for their intended purpose. Personally, they look fine for feeders to me.

[shelliebear]

I don't know how to prove my snakes didn't eat them but they didn't.
As for the rats I have NO IDEA what the heck was going on. They were sneezing and rubbing their noses something awful, and I've never seen anything like that. :(
I really hope you guys are right and that the rats were not sick. Perhaps they had allergies to something?
They weren't eating potato, they had some wheat crackers and raisins as a snack, the next day I bought the parrot food and mixed it with the rat food. :P I'm not sure about potatoes being good for them either.
The guy at the store did say the male had pretty bad mucus in his nose. I know I didn't record that on video though. :P
I really do hope you guys were right. :( I love rats, I hate when they are sick.

[shelliebear]

"Let them go"....brilliant, I know. People with phobias don't understand, they just want them to GTHO. :/ (I cried when I found out they had done that because they didn't TELL me first.)
But anyway, I hope you guys are right.
The store guy did say they are pretty young, so they might be sick from leaving their mother too early? I don't know. I just know they were sneezing and it made me very sad to hear it. More than anything I wanted to get them healthy since I don't want to feed sick ones to my snake.

[Show Me]

You love rats but yet you let your Dad dump them to fend for their lives while being sick? Give me a break!

[shelliebear]

...read my last post, please.

[Show Me]

Well I wouldn't own snakes if I was living in someone else's house that can't handle the source of food they eat. You are also to blame for the dumping of the live rats IMO since you were aware of the fact rats were not welcome in the house.

[shelliebear]

I DON'T feel that I am to blame because the PET STORE said on the phone they would take them back, and REFUSED.
According to you they all they don't even look sick--and I'm no rat expert either--so I don't understand WHY then they wouldn't take them back.
My plan was not to keep them as pets but to return them to the store.
They did not allow that to happen.

[shelliebear]

but then again, perhaps you are right. Maybe I need to stop this "save all the animals" syndrome and just feed them to my snakes next time even if they are sick. :(
Maybe I'm completely wrong.

[Show Me]

You are to blame. Your parents do not want rats in their home but YOU bought them and put the rats in THEIR house. If you hadn't got the rats in the first place they won't be out in the cold streets.

[Show Me]

Feeding them to snakes has a purpose. Letting the rats slowly freeze to death on the streets doesn't.

[shelliebear]

...anyway, to sum it up, the rats I bought at Evergreen sneezed a lot and seemed sick to me, but perhaps they were not.
I posted this as an "info" thread for that reason, because I don't know if Evergreen is to blame or if perhaps the rats only had allergies. I'm no expert.
I don't think I will buy from Evergreen again without inspecting the rats closer before buying them, but if I was going to buy live again I might consider them.

[edf01]

it could have just been new home sniffles. When stressed( and being brought into a new home/environment counts), rats can sneeze more often, and new owners or people that are unaware, think they are sick. I have pet rats, and had found one at work, and just bought new one for the found ones cagemate ( after qtining). both the found rat, and then later on, the new rat went through a few days of sneezing. It did subside, then stop after about a week. Perhaps that was just what it was. Now, not saying they werent sick or anything or couldnt have been sick, just passing on some info for you for future reference. You can always do what I call 'steam cleaning' the rats.... put them in your bathroom, in a ventilated cage, and run hot water in the shower. they the bathroom steam up, and them breathing in the warm moist air will help break anything up that may be inside them. Tho, this was info I retreived to help sick rats, I have done it in the past for new rats with new home sniffles and it seemed to help for a bit. I didnt do it this last time because I can't, we have no hot water, but it still went away as the rat adjusted to the new home.

My only suggestion to you would be to see if you can find a person locally that breeds their own rats for sale and get from them. Pet stores are the last place I get rats from, and when I do, I ask them to order them for me so I dont get ones that have been sitting around in the petstore for a while ( but to be fair, i need smaller sized rats, and best shot at getting them are ordering them). That is the only way I can think of shy from breeding your own ( which will not be possible if parent has a fear of them)

Good luck, i do personally hate having to rely on pet stores for food for my snakes.

janet kovacic

[porkchop48]

...anyway, to sum it up, the rats I bought at Evergreen sneezed a lot and seemed sick to me, but perhaps they were not.
I posted this as an "info" thread for that reason, because I don't know if Evergreen is to blame or if perhaps the rats only had allergies. I'm no expert.
I don't think I will buy from Evergreen again without inspecting the rats closer before buying them, but if I was going to buy live again I might consider them.

After the supposedly sold you sick rats now you are going to buy from them again?
You admitted to letting the rats go free? To spread more disease if they were sick or to freeze to death?

Why would they not take them back? Too young like the one guy said or sick like the other lady said? I am sorry but taking feeder rats to a vet to me just does not seem feasible.

[deborahbroadus]

You beat me to it, I posted before seeing your pictures. I do not see mucus on the rats, they appear healthy to me. Good luck.

I am not sure about giving potato to rats, I think they aren't an approved food?

On closer inspection, I see that you named one of the rats potato... is it usual to name feeders?
Anyway, that's where my confusion came from (I thought you were feeding them potatoes)..I apologize.:)

[shelliebear]

No you did not read any of my posts.
A. I did NOT consent to them being let go. My dad did it without telling me a damn thing.
B. I said I would CONSIDER buying from them because according to the people on here, who I trust a lot more than me, the rats looked ok. As Janet said maybe they had sniffles from a new house. I DON'T KNOW. I would go inspect the rats and if they were healthy, I might buy them.
If they were sneezing like the ones I got last time were, NO, clearly I would not buy them.
I do NOT agree with releasing animals onto the streets. It was a dumb idea and I'm BEYOND ANGRY but no, I did NOT give consent to that.
They wouldn't take them back because the guy at the store said since I SAID they were sneezing he did not feel comfortable taking them back because mycoplasma can wipe out whole colonies of rats very quickly and then he would have to freeze them all and start over.

[shelliebear]

I don't usually name feeders but I did name them once I realized they were sick and did not want to give them to my snakes (I admit I have a soft spot for them and the names just kind of came to me. But other feeders I let my fiance Max handle because I do know I have a soft spot. The sneezing was evident before I cold even leave the room.)

[Wolfy-hound]

First, where exactly are you keeping the feeder rats you are purchasing? You mentioned getting some that would have been kept a while in the bin, but your parents won't let them in the house and you live in Washington.

The rats look perfectly healthy in the pics, with clear eyes and eating and healthy looking fur. They don't look sick.

Stores generally do not take back rats. If they did, they'd be selling and refunding as people buy the rodents, the snakes don't eat and the people bring them back over and over, exposing the feeders in the store to who knows what.

Just because "you cried over it" doesn't mean it's not your fault that you keep bringing in animals that your parents will not tolerate in the house. If your father said the rats couldn't come into the house it was YOUR duty by those animals to kill them and dispose of them or feed them to animals. You could have killed and frozen them and then served them up as FT. Turning loose domestic animals is cruel.

Keeping feeders outside without proper heat is also cruel, since you said you couldn't bring them INSIDE and the only reason that INSIDE would be better than wherever they were... is if wherever they were isn't heated or otherwise is unsuitable.

Making an accusation on the wrong place(Pet supply vs Pets) on rats that look healthy and may have been sniffling due to the fact that you keep them in unsuitable places, and then saying that the rats were released rather than kept, rehomed or killed off, and trying to act as if somehow none of it is your fault because you 'feel really bad about it' is immature. There's an obvious issue.

Figure out what you are going to feed your animals and where you will humanely keep the feeders you continue to buy. If your parents will not allow feeders in a humane area, switch to only FT or don't keep animals that require live feeders. You can't say "I love rats" and then be doing things that results in inhumane care. Sorry if it sounds harsh to you, but so is freezing to death outside slowly because someone can't figure out what to do with a unwanted live animal.

[porkchop48]

Ah yeah I did read your post.

I am not good with the multi quote thing so bear with me.

You said in post # 7 "My mom wouldn't let me keep them in the house (hence why I tried to return them) so my dad took them on his paper route and let them go. I had no other choice. They are not allowed in the house."

To me this sounds like you knew exactly what happened to them. Just my opinion.

In post 4 "Evergreen Pet Supply didn't take the rodents back. They said they were worried the other rats would get sick...THEY ALREADY ARE." But in post #18 "The store guy did say they are pretty young, so they might be sick from leaving their mother too early? " But now in post #30 "I SAID they were sneezing he did not feel comfortable taking them back because mycoplasma can wipe out whole colonies of rats very quickly and then he would have to freeze them all and start over. "... So which was it?

[shelliebear]

The guy at the store said several different things to me. All of those things he said to me at different points during our discussion. The last thing he said to me was, "Because they might have mycoplasma I do not feel comfortable taking them back."
The other things were said too however.
I did NOT know my parents would dump them somewhere outside. I knew they weren't allowed as pets. I did not think an emergency situation would be handled like that--and it was an emergency.
I'm not trying to be cruel to my feeders. I have a bin a (usually) rat food in case the snakes don't eat them, or, I guess now if they are sick or otherwise. They do not sit outside.
How was I supposed to know that nobody would respect my idea of trying to rehome the rats, and just disregard me and throw them outside?
If your friend kills someone and you didn't know you aren't liable. I'm not either.
I've kept rats overnight before and fed them off the next morning.
This one time I was concerned about their health and didn't do that. I had no idea it would be so different fro mthe other situations in which they were fed off.
Not my fault that someone else has no heart for rodents.

[deborahbroadus]

Ah yeah I did read your post.

I am not good with the multi quote thing so bear with me.

You said in post # 7 "My mom wouldn't let me keep them in the house (hence why I tried to return them) so my dad took them on his paper route and let them go. I had no other choice. They are not allowed in the house."

To me this sounds like you knew exactly what happened to them. Just my opinion.

In post 4 "Evergreen Pet Supply didn't take the rodents back. They said they were worried the other rats would get sick...THEY ALREADY ARE." But in post #18 "The store guy did say they are pretty young, so they might be sick from leaving their mother too early? " But now in post #30 "I SAID they were sneezing he did not feel comfortable taking them back because mycoplasma can wipe out whole colonies of rats very quickly and then he would have to freeze them all and start over. "... So which was it?

At this point, I think she's just spouting from a link I sent her a few minutes ago when she asked for information on allergies in rats.

I think all her information is suspect, and it's not an "info" thread so much as a "look at me" thread.:shrug01:

[shelliebear]

....but that still isn't the point of the thread IMO because the point was just CHECK THE RATS BEFORE YOU BUY THEM AT EVERGREEN because mine had sniffles and seemed sick, just make sure yours aren't sick.
That's the whole point.
Can we be back on topic now? Not that there's really anything left to say if the rats were healthy, which by all means seems to be the general consensus here.

[shelliebear]

A look-at-me thread? Are you kidding me?
No offense but I don't really want YOU looking at me anyway. You bother me a lot. You didn't have to open the page.
If I want attention, believe me, I know how to get it, and I don't think it would be from any of you.
But I feel honored that you invented that whole idea just for me. :)

[Show Me]

If you friend kills someone and they told you before hand that they were going to kill that person and you didn't report it to the authorities...you can be held liable.

Your parents told you rats were not to be in the house. Yet you put them in the house. You said you had no other choice but to let your Dad dump them but you could have turned them over to the humane society. You are liable.

[ophidile]

One of the realities behind keeping a predator is having to kill prey... I actually do think it's admirable of you to care about the welfare of your feeders while they are alive, although I will agree with others that the rats do not look extremely sick. I doubt that's what caused your snake to refuse to eat.

Hopefully this is just an isolated incident and you do not get stuck with rats again. If it does happen, though, what I would recommend is culling and freezing the rats until you want to feed them to your snakes. Hopefully one of them will take a thawed rat?

Certainly better than dumping them outside!!! (I know your dad didn't ask you permission before doing this but now you know this is what he does... don't let it happen again)

[shelliebear]

I had no other choice because I wasn't informed of the choice in the first place
:lmao:
You SO are not reading my posts...wow.
They didn't TELL me they were going to do that or the rats wouldn't have been dumped.
Does it help if I shorten it up into one post like that?

[shelliebear]

Thank you, ophidile. :thumbsup:

[Show Me]

I believe you did know they were going to be dumped. That's my opinion.

[Tim Cole]

The obvious solution which was hinted at but not stressed...BUY FROZEN RATS!

Safer for your snakes, cheaper, and way more convenient.

[capt._howdy]

I believe you did know they were going to be dumped. That's my opinion.

well honestly it doesnt matter now since they were all Shell can do now is buy f/t to avoid this in the future

[deborahbroadus]

A look-at-me thread? Are you kidding me?
No offense but I don't really want YOU looking at me anyway. You bother me a lot. You didn't have to open the page.
If I want attention, believe me, I know how to get it, and I don't think it would be from any of you.
But I feel honored that you invented that whole idea just for me. :)

:rofl::rofl: Ok, Shellie, if you don't want me looking at you, and I "bother" you don't send another PM looking for advice.

Bottomline, you have gotten some good advice here, and much more tactfully than I would have put it. I dislike hearing someone down another business on such filmsy excuses without evidence even if it's called an Info thread. You still should have provided information in the form of the "mucus" that you claim to have seen, the VISIBLE symptoms that you claim were present.

None of these rats show any visible evidence of the visible symptoms that you claim they had. Personally, my first thought was you were ticked off because your snakes wouldn't eat the rats, so were trying to get your money back, but I could be wrong, I often am.:ack2:

Have a good day, Shellie.:)

[Wolfy-hound]

The bottom line is you KNEW you weren't to bring rats in.

You mentioned the rats you got "the other day" and also rats you got "last week" all of which you said you were worried to feed to your snakes because you thought they were all sick. Where were those rats being held for that week and for the few days? This was 12-24.

On 12-27 you state the store wouldn't take them back and your mom wouldn't allow them in the house.

So where exactly were these rats for the 4 days between AND the 2 days to 1 week previous to your post about how they seemed sick? Obviously they were not in the house, and again, if it was a suitable place outside the house, why would it have suddenly been important that they couldn't come IN the house? You had kept them for a week(up to nearly two weeks) already outside of the house.

Sounds to me like a giant hole in your story. You have a habit of not quite filling in the holes in the dramatic stories. I'd really like to know where they were kept and why it was an issue to bring them inside AFTER you found you couldn't get your money back.

[Show Me]

Deborah wrote: Personally, my first thought was you were ticked off because your snakes wouldn't eat the rats, so were trying to get your money back, but I could be wrong, I often am.

That is exactly what I think happened! I hope the owners of the store refuse to sell her anymore rats and I hope she only buys frozen from now on so no more rats will be tossed on the street.

[Jadenkisses]

I have to agree that those rats do not look sick.
Rats sneeze- especially when they are kept on Aspen bedding or any other type of wood shavings. The dust gets in their noses and fur, and they'll continue to sneeze for a while even after you remove the bedding and replace it with something else.
It also could've been that it was too cold for them.
And it was irresponcible of you to bring those rats into your home when you knew your parents did not approve of them being kept in the house.
But furthermore, you have presented absolutely no evidence that there was anything wrong with the rats.
Why is it that some people think they don't have to provide any proof to back up what they are saying if it's just an 'info thread' and not a 'bad guy' thread?
You still have to show proof if you want people to believe what you're saying.

[shelliebear]

Because I have no proof, is why I posted an info thread.
I wanted to share my experience and people can do with it what they wish.
I am not, after hearing so many opinions that the rats were not sick, trying to get people to not buy from the store.
Just look them over before you buy them. :shrug01:
I didn't THINK to take photos of the rats when I bought them at the store because I didn't KNOW they were sick.
When I got home and saw they were sneezing, I put them in my temporary tub, cleaned out the bigger tub, and moved them in there.
the ones from last week I did feed to my snakes. The ones from the other day I did not because it was the second time the sneezing had occurred and I was more aware to the fact that something might be going on.
so I didn't feed those ones...
Besides, BOI threads--all they are is one person posting emails and 50 million pages of YOU guys posting your opinions, ANYWAY. You have no proof, you just read the emails and make opinionated statements about them and what should be done. :D:D :D
I just threw out my experience and I gave what I had--the photos of the rats when I had them, and they're not sick. More likely according to the users on here it sounds like they had new home snuffles. I misdiagnosed them--I'm not a vet. But I hear sniffles and it doesn't sound good to me, in any case. :shrug01:
Wolfy-Hound, you have quite a reputation yourself. Don't think that several of us from other websites haven't noticed your attitude towards discussion topics. ;) We have.
Anyway. That was my experience with them, and all I want people to know is just check your feeders over before you buy them.
Thanks. :)

[shelliebear]

(and aside from the sneezing, there was not any thing else wrong with that store that I could see, FYI.)

[bobtard]

Do they have any relation to Evergreen Reptiles, or no? They're both located in spokane.

[shelliebear]

No they do not.

[KelliH]

Wolfy-Hound, you have quite a reputation yourself. Don't think that several of us from other websites haven't noticed your attitude towards discussion topics. ;) We have.
Anyway. That was my experience with them, and all I want people to know is just check your feeders over before you buy them.
Thanks. :)

Somehow, I doubt that she or anyone here cares much what you and several others "from other websites" think of her.

Do Mom or Dad mind if you keep frozen rats in the freezer?

[bobtard]

Ok, thank you for clearing that up.

[BigTattoo]

Do they have any relation to Evergreen Reptiles, or no? They're both located in spokane.

The second post in this thread was from Evergreen Reptile stating there is no relationship between the two.

Rats can be carriers of a disease called leptospirosus. The form rats carry is not a concern to humans or reptiles. The symptoms are exactly as described by the OP. Sniffling, sneezing, clicking or raspy breathing. Quite often they may appear as though they have or had a bloody nose. Rats exposed to this that survive are always carriers and can contaminate non infected rats. Many factors determine whether recently infected rats may live or die.

Lab rats that have no infections or much in the way of an immune system normally die when exposed. Feeder/pet store rats quite often make it through the first stages of infection and recover to be carriers. Pet stores don't buy their rats from labs. They either get them from big distributors or sometimes from hobbyist and local breeders. Distributor rats most often are already infected and are carriers quite often showing no signs of infection by the time we buy them as feeders. Sometimes pet shops will buy excess babies from customers that have no room for them and these can be healthy rats that get infected by the distributor rats already in the store.

The one sign you can look for in carrier rats is to look at the nostrils and if it appears there is any blood there, they are carriers. They may show no other signs or symptoms and this may not be visible in all carrier rats.

There is no danger to humans or reptiles and these rats are perfectly good to use as feeders.

If you are looking for breeding stock to start or add to a colony do not buy any rats showing these symptoms. If your local pet shops rats are sneezing, rattling breathing, bloody looking noses do not add these to your colony or you may lose them all.

You can't really blame the pet shop. I know I had a shop and it's hard to find enough rats to keep customers supplied with feeders. So they have no choice than to buy from distributors or tell you "sorry I have nothing to feed your snakes." The big box shops will not sell rodents as feeders which is one reason their rodents have such high price tags. So that leaves most of us to get our rodents from Mom and Pop shops which will sell feeders.

I don't blame the shop for not taking the rats back. Customers will buy pets without parents permission and be told to take them back. Buy feeders that their snakes don't eat and want to return them. Don't care for them properly, they get sick from the improper care and the customer wants to blame the shop and return them. So many reasons why people try to return animals.

Just ask yourselves how often here on the BOI you see OPs coming on and starting bad guy threads and it turns out the OP is the bad guy. Not the breeder/dealer, not the pet store, the customer.
How long is a shop going to stay in business selling "loaner" rats in case your snake doesn't eat them? If a shop has clean rats and a customer wants to return them when their snakes don't eat. How is the shop to know they haven't been infected, gotten mites or any number of things that can affect every rat in their shop. I've seen it happen all too often.

If you don't believe me go back and re-read this thread and see the actions of a "responsible" reptile owner. One those rats should have been disposed of humanely and frozen. Two this thread should never have been started as there has been no proof the rats were sick and not just reacting to dusty bedding or other allergens. I'm not saying for a fact they weren't sick just that there is no proof. With 'repsponsible" pet owners like the OP how does a pet shop protect themselves and their animals with an open door return policy?

The above information on Lepto is for educational purposes and not an indication that was what was wrong with the OPs rats. It could have just been dusty bedding. Who knows?

[JHB1982]

Shellie,

I would recommend using local breeders over a pet store. If you want to shoot me over pm I can give you the contact info of a couple of rodent breeders and the one pet store I would go to there for your feeders.

If you can get your snakes to eat f/t it is also much less of a hassle as you can just store them in the freezer and then thaw them out when it comes time to feeding. I also have snakes that only eat live or freshly killed rodents so I understand what it's like trying to find a reliable source of live rodents without breeding them yourself.

[Wolfy-hound]

[QUOTE=shelliebear;1174262]Wolfy-Hound, you have quite a reputation yourself. Don't think that several of us from other websites haven't noticed your attitude towards discussion topics. ;) We have.
QUOTE]

Yes I'm aware of the good reputation I have, it's publicly available and seen when I'm greeted when I come to chat. It's also seen in my reputation on websites as well, so the "several" of you are welcome to accuse, I'd love to see all your proof of all my "attitudes". Please.. feel free. I use Wolfhound, Wolfyhound and slight variations including a hyphen across the net. I don't hide anywhere.. so.. let's see?

I'll also note that you never answered where you kept those rats. Why would you avoid answering why the rats were outside the house for a week but suddenly needed to be inside but couldn't so they were released?

Perhaps I was supposed to run away weeping at the thought that you.. oh sorry, the "several" of you... have "noticed my attitude"? Sorry. I asked you questions you avoided on two websites so far. Perhaps I was supposed to burst into tears at the thought of how terribly upset you were over the feeder rats that mysteriously you cared about once people started saying it was wrong to release them rather than humanely kill them. You'll have to fill me in on exactly how I'm supposed to act for the more dramatic effect, it's not a natural inclination that I have.

Sooo, how about where those rats were being kept in late december in Washington while they were so sick-looking that you were crying with concern?

[bobtard]

Wait, Wolfy-Hound, didn't you use to visit Rick Siscos site when it was up?

[Wolfy-hound]

I don't want to post off-topic, but when it was active and Rick still had tegus I did.

Also, on topic, most all feeder rats are not likely to get vet care because once the vet starts giving medication, I'm not sure many folks would want to feed them to their reptiles, because drugs to treat issues in mammals are often bad for reptiles. In addition to the cost of a vet visit, but even if a store wanted to use OTC medication.

[reticguy76]

actually a good amount of medications used to treat mammals are used to treat reptiles, especially antibiotics
as we treat mammals, rodents and reptiles with many many human drugs.

we treat all the above (exception of humans) in my veterinary clinic(s) daily.

[JordanAng420]

Rats can be carriers of a disease called leptospirosus. The form rats carry is not a concern to humans or reptiles.

There is no danger to humans...

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Humans are very susceptible to Lepto, and if not treated, the disease can end up being fatal.

[Wolfy-hound]

actually a good amount of medications used to treat mammals are used to treat reptiles, especially antibiotics
as we treat mammals, rodents and reptiles with many many human drugs.

we treat all the above (exception of humans) in my veterinary clinic(s) daily.


I stand corrected that many meds are used across species. I still don't want to buy feeders treated with medications to my reptiles.

[reticguy76]

Absolutely. It's always best to use clean, healthy, unmedicated feeders

[JudyC]

...
Why is it that some people think they don't have to provide any proof to back up what they are saying if it's just an 'info thread' and not a 'bad guy' thread?
You still have to show proof if you want people to believe what you're saying.

Why? Because how often have we seen someone post a "bad guy" thread with no evidence to back it up and a dozen different people lecture them about how it "Should have been an 'info' thread if you don't have any proof...." :rolleyes:

I do agree that if someone is going to be touchy about being believed (bad guy, info, or any sort of thread), then they need to have all their ducks in a row and be able to provide proof of what they are saying.

...
Wolfy-Hound, you have quite a reputation yourself. Don't think that several of us from other websites haven't noticed your attitude towards discussion topics. ;) We have.


Theresa's reputation speaks for itself...that it does. Just look at all those green dots. :p I know her well both from this site and from mine and have met her in person. I'm not at all aware of this mysterious "attitude" you're referring to and implying in some negative light. I may not always agree 100% with her, but I would trust her integrity and intelligence in a heartbeat. I seriously have no idea what you intended to accomplish with that sort of statement. :confused:

[rabernet]

Shellie, I'm confused by this thread. On another forum, the tan baby was one you "fell in love with" and named Chips because Max was so enamoured with her that he refused to feed her off.

And you were so in love with her that you said you bought her a pet mouse as a companion that you named Potato. If you knew your mother had problems with keeping them as pets, why did you add another critter that was going to end up thrown out in the cold?

[Lucille]

Shellie, I have some general advice:

Be careful before you publicly accuse a seller of selling sick stock. It can affect their livelihood if the accusations are not carefully thought out, and a careless unfounded accusation that causes damage can come back on you.

Care for your family. Your parents have said no rats in the house and you should respect that. You are in their home for only a short while (on another thread you mention you have a fiance) so while you are there, honor their wishes.

Be careful with money. On another thread you mention you are possibly in danger of losing your home. (Have you planned where your reptiles will go if that happens?)
Lives rats are expensive. Pet store parrot food used as rat food is very expensive. Feeding f/t is less expensive by far and in many ways a better choice.

Words carry great power. Be careful of what you say.

[shelliebear]

Losing our house--not a problem anymore
Keeping as pets on Bp.net--I said she was very cute and I wished I could keep her as a pet (Chips) but how many times did I also say she was obviously sick, which is why we didn't feed her? After we put her in the box overnight we started realizing "aw she is cute".
But in that thread I said OVER AND OVER, and kept asking for advice (which none of you people on BP.net seem to like anyway, being asked for advice) as to why she might be sneezing and wheezing.
Yes she was cute and I wanted to keep her as a pet but A. she was sick and I can't take her to the vet
B. rats can't be pets in my house
C. nobody responded to my Craigslist ad to take her so I called Evergreen

I started this thread because I thought the rats were sick. I don't know how many times I have to say it, Judy, but since people more knowledgeable about rats than myself have concluded that the rats did not look sick, I have since CHANGED my attitude about them.
I have said numerous times that since the rats weren't sick according to many of you, then I have nothing to say about Evergreen except perhaps look the rats over before you buy them.
I have even said I would consider buying from them again if the future, but I am switching to F/T now which they do not sell (to my knowledge).
If any of you would read what I was saying and stop diluting this thread with stuff that has nothing to do with Evergreen, maybe people would be able to focus long enough to understand my point.
:) Have a nice day.
Shellie
(oh, and about Wolfy-Hound, I was merely mentioning the fact that I and several members have noticed her (and others) comments...I'll take a lot, you know...but some things just aren't going to fly, like the accusations some people keep dreaming up. It's quite entertaining but still rude, and pointless. :D)

[shelliebear]

Shellie, I have some general advice:

Be careful before you publicly accuse a seller of selling sick stock. It can affect their livelihood if the accusations are not carefully thought out, and a careless unfounded accusation that causes damage can come back on you.

Care for your family. Your parents have said no rats in the house and you should respect that. You are in their home for only a short while (on another thread you mention you have a fiance) so while you are there, honor their wishes.

Be careful with money. On another thread you mention you are possibly in danger of losing your home. (Have you planned where your reptiles will go if that happens?)
Lives rats are expensive. Pet store parrot food used as rat food is very expensive. Feeding f/t is less expensive by far and in many ways a better choice.

Words carry great power. Be careful of what you say.
I have since retracted the statement that they sell sick rodents. Did you read my posts? :(

[timebider]

I stand corrected that many meds are used across species. I still don't want to buy feeders treated with medications to my reptiles.

I agree with this. It's like the debate about rBGH in cows' milk; maybe those synthetic hormones really do have zero effect on humans, but what health-conscious person would knowingly choose to ingest them when there is another alternative? Likewise, I don't want my reptiles exposed to medications that they don't themselves require.

I breed my own feeders and I would never take a sick rat to the vet (that said, thank God I've never had any sick rats). It's just counterintuitive. A sick rat in my racks would be humanely culled and responsibly disposed of. Sick rats may also be safe to feed to snakes, but I personally won't feed any rodent that's less-than-thriving to my reptiles. It's their only food source, so it better be as nutritious as possible. My .02.

[shelliebear]

If not an Info thread, WHAT do you all suggest I should have categorized this as?
To my non-expert mind the rats were sick.
So I posted an INFO thread about that.
I was told they were NOT sick.
I'm sure the people reading this thread are big kids and perfectly capable of making the right decision regarding Evergreen. :shrug01:
...considering I have stated numerous times I WAS WRONG.
Sorry Fauna. Won't give information about a store ever again. :D
Certainly won't trust the readers to be smart enough to make their own decisions, either.
They'll definitely choose to listen to a rat-noob idiot (me) over a pet store that is thriving (Evergreen).
I made a mistake. Oopsies! I'll go to Hell for it. :D Trust me.

[Lucille]

I have since retracted the statement that they sell sick rodents. Did you read my posts? :(



Shellie

I am giving you GOOD advice. You may find yourself accountable even though you later retract. Certainly there may be fewer people who will want you as a customer once they read this thread.

This is not like pre-K where after you apologize for calling JimBob a dummy there was milk and cookies. People's livelihoods are at stake here.

Words are powerful. Be more careful of them, and do your homework before you write headlines.

[shelliebear]

Thank you Lucille.

[shelliebear]

....and I didn't expect a celebration for me saying I was wrong. I trust that people that read this, like you, are smart enough and wise enough to make the right decision about Evergreen since I am admittedly wrong about my statement.
I don't want milk and cookies. I want Evergreen to get the business they deserve in light of my recent stupidity is all.

[shelliebear]

If there's anything I else I can do to make it right let me know. I'm at a loss. :shrug01:

[JudyC]

... and kept asking for advice (which none of you people on BP.net seem to like anyway, being asked for advice) ...

Oh yeah...over seven years of doing nothing but offering advice (for not a single dime of monetary gain, mind you) to thousands upon thousands of people. We just HATE giving out advice there. :rolleyes_

Shellie....have you ever stopped to consider that maybe...just maybe...it's the attitude and the drama and the unnecessary defensiveness that causes people to lose patience with you? I've seen many people, including myself, try very hard to help you over and over again. But you ACT as if you don't want to listen to anything that might not fit with your particular wishes or warped view of how things should be. I'm not saying this is how it really is in your own head....all I'm saying is that is how you are coming across 9 times out of 10. You don't listen to much of what is said and only seem to read whatever it is that will fuel your need for drama...even if that is not really there.

Case in point:
I don't know how many times I have to say it, Judy, but since people more knowledgeable about rats than myself have concluded that the rats did not look sick, I have since CHANGED my attitude about them.

I didn't question your reason or motives for posting this thread. Not in the least. In fact, I actually DEFENDED your reasons for doing so because this is exactly what people have been told to do when wanting to share a bad experience without any proof to back it up. But you didn't want to read that....you only wanted to read another attack, apparently....and it makes someone like me very tired and short of patience to be misread like this, or ignored completely when really good advice is offered.


(oh, and about Wolfy-Hound, I was merely mentioning the fact that I and several members have noticed her (and others) comments...I'll take a lot, you know...but some things just aren't going to fly, like the accusations some people keep dreaming up. It's quite entertaining but still rude, and pointless. :D)

This is still a mystery....but yeah...whatever, as they say. Vague insinuations like this aren't exactly building sympathy in the people you keep reaching out to for help.

I'm very serious, Shellie...when dozens of different people point out the same types of issues over and over again...when it seems like "everyone" is losing their patience and even the typically very even-toned and level-headed people get short and brutally honest with you....it's time to take a hard look INWARD and be willing to work on your own issues, rather than trying to blame everyone else.

[sschind]

Ah yeah I did read your post.

In post 4 "Evergreen Pet Supply didn't take the rodents back. They said they were worried the other rats would get sick...THEY ALREADY ARE." But in post #18 "The store guy did say they are pretty young, so they might be sick from leaving their mother too early? " But now in post #30 "I SAID they were sneezing he did not feel comfortable taking them back because mycoplasma can wipe out whole colonies of rats very quickly and then he would have to freeze them all and start over. "... So which was it?

It could be all 3 these are not mutually exclusive comments. In fact they support each other. The pet store did not want to take them back because they feared they may be sick and they might wipe out the rest of the rats.

[shelliebear]

....I get defensive because it's very hard when I am one person trying to say something over and over that nobody is understanding--like, 10 people aren't understanding.
I'm getting completely droned out by 10 angry people posting, and my one little post gets lost in between all of them.
And honestly? I get really upset when people insult me. Before people insulted me, I DIDN'T SAY anything insulting to anyone else (and I'm not saying people have done it on here) but you know the thread in which I speak, and that has caused my to get defensive in general.
That thread hurt, people calling me an idiot and a bad snake owner, a liar, etc. and I'm not going to let people think that without trying to explain...
But nobody is hearing me. I am lost. I am out numbered. I am not being heard.
I don't know what else to do.
I don't like being ganged up on. I thought most people would understand why I am defensive at this point in time ESPECIALLY how many of the people who are on Fauna read the fiasco on your website. But I guess not. :shrug01:
I thank you for the advice and for saying it nicely. I can respect criticism, even harsh criticism. I can't respect somebody blatantly insulting me or calling me a name.
So thank you.
Shellie

[shelliebear]

Sschind, it WAS all three that the pet owner said. Thank you for understanding what I said. :P

[shelliebear]

( you are one of the only ones who did I guess?)

[shelliebear]

...I just noticed I spelled "Evergreen" wrong in the title...woooow.

[Drew Zaun]

If there's anything I else I can do to make it right let me know. I'm at a loss. :shrug01:

Yes, make a very determined effort to switch your snakes to frozen/thawed rodents, as others have suggested.

It is way better for all concerned parties, the scaley, the furry, the cash strapped, and the musophobic:)

[BigTattoo]

Actually, the exact opposite is true. Humans are very susceptible to Lepto, and if not treated, the disease can end up being fatal.

Yes there are species of Lepto that humans can contract. As per my vet the varieties that can be carried by rats are not contagious to humans. Although they can be contracted by other mammals. I'm no authority on the matter but I do consider my vet's information and trust it. He's only human and could be wrong. :shrug01:

[reticguy76]

I, too, am in veterinary medicine, and have never heard that some lepto can be transmitted to humans. I am also not right everytime, but as far as I have ever heard, trad and dealt with lepto is lepto, and it's zoonotic

[Dennis Hultman]

Yes there are species of Lepto that humans can contract. As per my vet the varieties that can be carried by rats are not contagious to humans. Although they can be contracted by other mammals. I'm no authority on the matter but I do consider my vet's information and trust it. He's only human and could be wrong. :shrug01:

I, too, am in veterinary medicine, and have never heard that some lepto can be transmitted to humans. I am also not right everytime, but as far as I have ever heard, trad and dealt with lepto is lepto, and it's zoonotic

Not to take this to far off topic, you both peaked my curiosity. While I'm not in veterinary medicine or have any knowledge on the subject it seems that there is plenty of information online. While I know that one should be cautious about taking what you read as gospel but there seems to be plenty to suggest that you both are wrong with your statements in bold.


Leptospirosis
Content reviewed by Dr. V. Ramasubramanian
MD, MRCP (UK), DTM & H (London), DGUM (London)
Why is Leptospirosis called 'Rat Fever?'
Worldwide, rats are the most common source of human infection by the bacteria that causes leptospirosis. That is why this disease is also called 'Rat Fever.'
Humans are usually a dead-end-host. That is, the disease does not spread from person-to-person.
How does the bacteria enter the body?
Leptospirosis bacteria can enter the body through broken skin and mucous membranes, or when a person swallows contaminated food or water, including water swallowed during water sports. Once in the bloodstream, the bacteria can reach all parts of the body and cause signs and symptoms of illness.
CDC Centers for Disease Control
Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects humans and animals… If the disease is not treated, the patient could develop kidney damage, meningitis (inflammation of the membrane around the brain and spinal cord), liver failure, and respiratory distress. In rare cases death occurs…

Outbreaks… are usually caused by exposure to water contaminated with the urine of infected animals… cattle, pigs, horses, dogs, rodents, and wild animals. Humans become infected through contact with water, food, or soil containing urine from these infected animals… by swallowing contaminated food or water or through skin contact, especially with mucosal surfaces, such as the eyes or nose, or with broken skin.

It is an occupational hazard for people who work outdoors or with animals… It is a recreational hazard for those who participate in outdoor sports in contaminated areas… swimming, wading, and whitewater rafting in contaminated lakes and rivers. The incidence is also increasing among urban children.
The Leptospirosis Information Center
http://www.leptospirosis.org/topic.php?t=47
Leptospirosis is famously a 'disease of rats' but in reality rodents are remarkably immune. Rodents can become carriers of a selected number of strains, but are impossible to infect with any other. They do not become noticeably ill from the infection, and so leptospirosis is not a 'rat disease'. The reason it becomes important is that the strains rodents can carry are the same strains that cause severe illness in other animals, and in humans. It's simply a coincidence, but it's what makes leptospirosis such a serious issue.

http://www.allabthealth.com/health-articles/leptospirosis-2-3655

A Leptospirosis is an infectious disease caused by certain pathogens of the genus Leptospira (from the order of the spirochete occurs).

It is a reported that zoonotic diseases are main cause of this disease. The main animals which possibly cause infections are rats and mice. But it is also found in the case of pig disease in pigs and cattle keepers are also suffer from this infection. The transfer to humans through contact with urine, blood or tissue of infected animals or contaminated water.

As per my vet the varieties that can be carried by rats are not contagious to humans.

, and have never heard that some lepto can be transmitted to humans.
I keep looking and every single resource I've read states the opposite. CDC and others state, if a rat or other animal urinates in something you drink or enters by way of cut or abrasion into the blood stream, it can easily be transferred that way.

[Dennis Hultman]

Cont..


The reason it becomes important is that the strains rodents can carry are the same strains that cause severe illness in other animals, and in humans. It's simply a coincidence, but it's what makes leptospirosis such a serious issue.
http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/58/9/1227
J Med Microbiol 58 (2009), 1227-1230; DOI: 10.1099/jmm.0.011528-0
© 2009 Society for General Microbiology
ISSN 0022-2615
Human leptospirosis cases and the prevalence of rats harbouring Leptospira interrogans in urban areas of Tokyo, Japan
Nobuo Koizumi1, Maki Muto1, Tsutomu Tanikawa2, Hiroshi Mizutani3,{dagger}, Yoshiko Sohmura3, Eiji Hayashi4,{ddagger}, Nobuaki Akao4, Mayu Hoshino1,§, Hiroki Kawabata1 and Haruo Watanabe5

1 Department of Bacteriology, National Institute of Infectious Diseases, 1-23-1 Toyama, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 162-8640, Japan

2 Ikari Corporation, 579 Chibadera, Chuo-ku, Chiba 260-0844, Japan

3 Tokyo Metropolitan Animal Care and Consultation Center, 3-2-1 Jonanjima, Ohta-ku, Tokyo 143-0002, Japan

4 Section of Environmental Parasitology, Tokyo Medical and Dental University, 1-5-45 Yushima, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-8510, Japan

5 National Institute of Infectious Diseases, 1-23-1 Toyama, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 162-8640, Japan

Correspondence
Nobuo Koizumi
nkoizumi{at}nih.go.jp

Received April 1, 2009
Accepted May 28, 2009

Thirteen patients with leptospirosis were identified, as confirmed by laboratory analysis during the last 5 years in our laboratory, who came from urban areas of Tokyo, Japan. All of the patients came into contact with rats before the onset of illness. Seventeen per cent of Norway rats captured in the inner cities of Tokyo carried leptospires in their kidneys. Most of these rat isolates were Leptospira interrogans serovar Copenhageni/Icterohaemorrhagiae. Antibodies against these serovars and their DNA were detected in the patients. This suggests that rats are important reservoirs of leptospirosis, and that rat-borne leptospires occur in urban areas of Tokyo.

{dagger}Present address: Tokyo Metropolitan Shibaura Meat Sanitary Inspection Station, 2-7-19 Konan, Minato-ku, Tokyo 108-0075, Japan.

{ddagger}Present address: Togane Hospital, 1229 Daikata, Togane, Chiba 283-8588, Japan.

§Present address: Horticultural Institute, Ibaraki Agricultural Center, 3165-1 Ago, Kasama, Ibaraki 3165-1, Japan.

The GenBank/EMBL/DDBJ accession numbers for the flaB sequences of rat isolates and patient samples are AB454100–AB454125.

A table of detection test data and a figure of PFGE results are available as supplementary data with the online version of this paper.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7461920

Human leptospirosis in Detroit and the role of rats as chronic carriers.

Thiermann AB, Frank RR.
Abstract

Human leptospirosis was diagnosed in three patients from Detroit General Hospital. Epidemiological studies of these cases revealed heavy rat infestations in the residences of two of the patients. Leptospires serotype icterohaemorrhagiae were isolated from the rats and one of the patients. Cultural isolation was attempted from numerous blood and urine samples from each patient. Media containing different selective contaminant inhibitor substances was also utilized. Only two samples were culturally positive. It appears that very few viable cells are shed by human patients intermittently. Clinical reports and leptospirosis diagnosis are reported for each of the cases. The agglutinin-absortion test proved to be helpful in elucidating the true etiologic agent in the absence of cultural isolation. A serological survey for leptospirosis was conducted among swine slaughterhouse workers in Detroit. Significant titres to Leptospira pomona were observed.

PMID: 7461920 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Publication Types, MeSH Terms

[Human leptospirosis in French Polynesia. Epidemiological, clinical and bacteriological features].


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17691431
[Article in French]

Coudert C, Beau F, Berlioz-Arthaud A, Melix G, Devaud F, Boyeau E, Jaomeau C, Lablee P, Jarno P.

Laboratoire de biologie médicale, Institut Louis Malardé, Papeete, Polynésie française. ccoudert@ilm.pf
Abstract

Leptospirosis is a severe zoonotic disease that constitutes a major public health problem for the island populations of French Polynesia. Due to protean clinical manifestations and the risk of misdiagnosis with dengue fever, endemic viral disease, laboratory studies are necessary to confirm diagnosis of leptospirosis. At the request of the Pacific Public Health Surveillance Network, a prospective study was conducted in the population of Raieatea in the Windward Islands and the Marquis Islands to determine the epidemiological features of the disease and to define appropriate control measures. A total of 113 patients were enrolled in study between March 2004 and March 2005. Thirty-three cases were confirmed based on demonstration of serum DNA or seroconversion. The estimated annual incidence of leptospirosis was 1.7 per 1000 inhabitants. Cases involved mainly (75%) young men (mean age, 30.5 years) and occurred predominantly during the rainy season. Swimming in fresh water was the only factor showing significant correlation (p < 0.02) with positive diagnosis of leptospirosis. The most frequently identified serotype was Leptospira icterohemorrahgiae (43% of strains), thus suggesting that the rat was the most common human transmission vector. However other serotypes were found, underlining the presence of diverse reservoirs and casting doubt on the efficacy of immunization using a monovalent vaccine. These findings also indicate that enhancement of prevention and control measures for leptospirosis is needed.

Control and prevention of rat fever (Leptospirosis) outbreak in six villages of Raichur district, Karnataka.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18405089
Masali KA, Pulare MV, Kachare VK, Patil MB, Reddi S.

Department of Community Medicine, Navodaya Medical College, Raichur.
Abstract

The study describes an attempt to record leptospirosis in Raichur taluk/district, in Karnataka, by serological test such as microscopic test and IgM by ELISA. A house to house survey was done in six villages of Krishna river basin. Cases were interviewed regarding chief complaints like, fever, headache and oliguria, age, sex and treatment given with diclofenac, doxycycline, tetracycline and vitamin B complex. A total of 1516 cases were treated. The age of the patients ranged between 10 and 71 years. Most of them were agricultural workers. Out of 15 blood samples 12 samples sent to DHO Office, 3 were negative for leptospirosis, the density of rats were increased in all villages, the mode of transmission was food and water contamination, duration of incubation period was 5 to 10 days. Health education, for the community was undertaken to take measures against rats. Causative agent may be Leptospirosis interrogans, 3 cases were referred to Civil Hospital, Raichur and Navodaya Medical College, Raichur. Community participation was excellent. This study showed the presence of leptospirosis among the community of 6 villages, the disease is posing health hazards for agricultural workers in Raichur taluka villages.

PMID: 18405089 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[reticguy76]

what i meant to say is that i have never heard that there some the humans can get. meaning, i have never heard of species specific lepto (that humans get some strains and not others)